Greens propose Luas for Cork

probe

http://www.greenparty.ie/en/news/latest_news/green_party_proposes_tram_service_for_cork

Green Party proposes tram service for Cork

Issued: 11 December 2006

The Green Party today unveiled plans to bring a light rail system to the city of Cork. Green Party Leader Trevor Sargent TD, who was in Cork to launch proposals to upgrade Cork’s entire public transport service, said the current Government’s transport proposals for the city are practically non-existent.

Deputy Sargent said: “Transport 21 has left Cork pretty well out of the picture with regards to future high budget transport development programmes. Much of what is proposed for Cork under Transport 21 was either already underway or has been postponed indefinitely. Other projects such as the North Ring Route around the city and the badly needed bypass for Macroom have been delayed indefinitely as they are not Transport 21 priorities. Cork does not deserve this.”

Green Party Cork South-Central TD Dan Boyle said: “The Green Party proposes the development of a light rail system that would see a line connecting Ballincollig to Mahon via Cork City Centre. A spur line from Bishopstown incorporating the CIT and CorkUniversityHospital would join with this line. A second phase could see a light rail system being extended to Passage West and development of light rail for the Northside of Cork City. We have already seen the huge success of the Luas in Dublin and we believe Cork should see the next roll-out of this excellent public transport system.

Green Party Cork North-Central candidate Cllr Chris O’Leary proposed a CorkHarbour water bus service, similar to those in other European cities such as Amsterdam and Paris. The City Council are already investigating the feasibility of such a service. Cllr O’Leary said: “Cork’s version of the waterbus could see it running from the lower harbour to the City's main street and back again, servicing Ringaskiddy, Rochestown, Cobh and Mahon to name but a few. The environmentally friendly public transport system will also act to facilitate tourism in the area as well as providing a sustainable, workable and dedicated service in Cork.

Green Party candidate for Cork East Sarah Iremonger said that the re-opening of the Cork/Midleton railway should only be the beginning of additional services in East Cork and beyond. “Local train links should not only go to Midleton but to Youghal and eventually onto Waterford. The existing rail link to Cobh should be upgraded with more trains running, more stops added, and train stations developed on the line with proper car parking facilities.”

Closing the Press Conference Dan Boyle TD stressed the Green Party’s commitment to doubling bus services in the Greater Cork area. “The Government’s recent provision of funding for 30 new buses for city bus services included 19 buses provided solely for replacement purposes. We need the same number of new buses again to improve the capacity of the service,” he concluded.

Mr. Presentable

How many people live in Cork City? Would it be justifiable to put in a commuter light rail? Or is it just the Greens drumming up support?

CtrlSource

It's about time the Green Party drummed-up support. It doesn't bother me if it's just electioneering - sure all parties do it!

They should be more influential in mainstream politics here than they are. If it can be done in Europe, it can be done here!

Blitzkrieger

Hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha.......

.....Oh, wait - they're serious?

rymus

I can think of at least 10 ways that money could be better spent... and included in that list somewhere would be "build a spire on Patrick's street". Higher up in that list would be "fill in some damn potholes". Higher again would be "Widen carrs hill". Oh I just cant wait until they come electioneering.

probe

nipplenuts wrote:

How many people live in Cork City? Would it be justifiable to put in a commuter light rail? Or is it just the Greens drumming up support?

If it is to go out as far as Ballincollig (which it should given the population growth there) it is not a "Cork City" affair. So you are talking about a metropolitan area with nearly 300,000 - which is about as big as Geneva. Geneva has several tram lines, lots of electric buses too. The Luas lines don’t serve the entire Dublin commuter belt – they serve a narrow corridor along their pathway. The same would apply in Cork.

Geneva network map:
http://www.tpg.ch/Cartographie/plans...006/reseau.pdf

More details here:
http://www.tpg.ch/index.php/tpg/content/view/full/407

Compare and contrast with:
www.corkbus.ie !

Public transport in Cork city consists of a handful of unreliable, ugly looking red and white, badly maintained and designed, scruffy looking "buses" that are mainly used by people who don't have cars. Even if one wanted to use the "system" there is almost no information on the network at bus stops. No integrated ticketing. No planned interchanges. Very often they don’t even bother to put the destination or route number up other than “Cork”.

Not that I'm blaming Bus Eireann or gov.ie for this sad state of affairs - they are getting away with it, and collecting their salaries, and more power to them!

The blame lies with the morons who live in the area, put up with it and vote as they do! It is only a matter of time before the gridlock in Cork equals that of Dublin because the majority of people will have no alternative and deserve to be stuck in their cars!


.probe

StandnDeliver

i think its about time cork gets a look in,the public transport in this county is rubbish,a tram in cork is a great idea,economical and also fume free!
As for a waterbus also a good idea,it is such a pain in the ass to get to passage,monkstown,and with practically no bus service there would be no harm in it.
Its better than the rest of the other parties ideas or lack of.
Not one of the other parties has ever ever come to my door besides the greens and mick barry.

Blitzkrieger

I'm all for a green public transport system but anytime someone uses the word 'Luas' that's not part of a punch line, they're an immediate candidate for the loony bin. Where on Cork's crowded streets are you going to put a tram? We need a proper system, not a giant farcical waste of public money.

Rollo Tamasi

How long did the Luas take to develop? Three, maybe 4 years? A tram system servicing Ballincollig, Bishopstown, Douglas, Rochestown will certainly be needed by 2010. I'm not too familar with the streets of the lay of the land up the northside but i'm sure they are in need of a transport solution too.

What will be the populatation of Ballincollig/Bishopstown by 2010?

Judes

And I'm one begging for a commuter ferry service to city - it would be absolutely fantastic - if they ran maybe 2 an hour - no traffic jams as such, I can't believe we've got one of the most fantastic harbours and don't take advantage of that fact. More houses/apartments are going up in the harbour areas of Cobh, Ringaskiddy, Passage West, Rochestown and Mahon - and yet everyone has to drive!!! It's ridiculous.

Our buses are horrendous, the service not so great - so most people have to drive. I lived in London for 11 years and couldn't/didn't drive - it wasn't necessary with the transportation system there. I got back to Cork and I was totally stuck and had to learn to drive. If we had a better tranportation system there would be less cars on the road. But I think it suits the Government to keep cars on roads for the tax they get, so what if we spend half our lives in traffic jams nowdays - they're still raking in the money!!! J

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

StandnDeliver

ah but there were trams in cork city before,it is very possibe to do it,just change the road system.


In December 1898, an electric tram system began operating on routes: Blackpool-Douglas, Summerhill-Sunday's Well and Tivoli-Blackrock. The gauge of the tramway was two feet, eleven and a half inches (90.2cm), and designed to be the same as the Muskerry Railway (although the two never shared traffic).

Increased usage of cars and buses in the 1920s led to a reduction in the numbers using the trams. The final day of operation of the trams was supposed to be March 31, 1931. However, after a few weeks of closure, it was realised that the Irish Omnibus Company did not have enough capacity to cope with demand, and the trams started running again in April. This was only temporary however, and the final tram in Cork ran on September 30, 1931.

comet

Cork Luas is light years away.
Theres a serious problem with lack of buses and lack of reliabilty in the buses that are there, fix that first, you just can't depend on them and everyone I know has been forced to buy a car.

probe

Blitzkrieger wrote:

I'm all for a green public transport system but anytime someone uses the word 'Luas' that's not part of a punch line, they're an immediate candidate for the loony bin. Where on Cork's crowded streets are you going to put a tram? We need a proper system, not a giant farcical waste of public money.

The streets are “crowded” with cars because there is no acceptable alternative. Give people a better alternative to the car and they will use it. Montpellier (similar size to Cork) had “crowded streets” until they installed a single tram line. They have been able to close off the entire city centre to cars since the tram arrived, with no objections. The place is now an urban paradise to walk around. New tramlines are being added. You can still use your car, and there is no shortage of parking space (about 10,000 spaces!) but most people opt for public transport when travelling to the centre. And the air is noticeably cleaner than in car bound cities.

The tram is the ideal flagship for an urban public transport system. Upmarket, as attractive as using a car, non-polluting, no parking issues or costs when you arrive in the city centre, integrated with other public transport. Not to mention cost savings – the average car costs about 50c per km to run, if you include depreciation, servicing, fuel, insurance, etc. Run a flagship tramline or two in a city, and people will use the rest of the public transport network to connect with it, providing you have integrated ticketing and the schedules synchronise.

Luas manages to suck in 20 odd million people a year in Dublin (most out of cars) – despite the appalling lack of integration and third world unreliability of interconnecting systems.

Modern trams do not require street dig-ups, the installation of tracks, and can even do without overhead power lines in critical areas where overhead cabling is an issue.

Rubber tyres provide a better solution than the conventional tram on tracks. Better braking capacity, silence, adhesion, etc. The Paris metro changed to using rubber tyres 30 years ago and it provides a far smoother, quieter ride and greater safety than conventional rolling stock in other cities (eg the ramshackle hot and humid, “tube” in London).

The powers that be have done virtually everything wrong with Luas – stupid non-integrated ticketing system, installation delays, lack of interconnectivity, no air con except in the drivers cab, awful signage, and much of the track will have to be modified because they used inappropriate components, bla, bla, bla. But they did buy nice trams and that is what attracts passengers.

Traffic levels in Cork city centre are growing geometrically every time I visit. Not to mention the big picture issues of future oil supplies and increased incidence of cancer, asthma and other health problems caused by traffic pollution.

There is no alternative to good public transport…! Half measures don’t work because the car gets in the way.

.probe

http://www.lohr.fr/download/Translohr_GB.zip

dahamsta

They'll construct a special roundabout for it on Pana - signalised, obviously - with the special Cork tarmac that's designed to sink and crumble within six months at twice the price of other leading brands. There'll be six sets of tracks, merging and separating randomly like the Kinsale road roundabout, mainly to keep the drivers from falling asleep in the traffic. And then someone will read the plans upside-down, and they'll bury sections of it.

"So it in't an underground at all so? Sure I was wonderin why de tracks were on de roof like! Jayney mack, that'll cost a few quid to fix!"

adam

Blitzkrieger

probe wrote:

The powers that be have done virtually everything wrong with Luas – stupid non-integrated ticketing system, installation delays, lack of interconnectivity, no air con except in the drivers cab, awful signage, and much of the track will have to be modified because they used inappropriate components, bla, bla, bla. But they did buy nice trams and that is what attracts passengers.

Who was that Spanish engineer who came out and said he could have built an underground system for the whole city at half the cost of the Luas? I could imagine squeezing a tram onto the roads all the way from the Pana to Balincollig, but I can't imagine it being done in Ireland without major ****-ups and at hugh expense to the public.

smackbunnybaby

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

too true.


IF ,and this is a big IF ,the luas was to be put in it should be built as far as carrigaline.the population is spiralling there and if they dont make it part of the original line they will only end up adding it later anyway.
lads save yourselves the bother. as far as i know as well ,all the original train lines to carrigaline are still around......wouldnt be that difficult

Owen

Great, just what we need. After 10 years of Roadworks in the city, more roadworks.

Rozie

Cork's transport system seriously needs sorting out, but won't this just make it worse for the next 5 years?

They should just have more buses and sort out the insane traffic.

It takes 20-25 minutes to get from the railway station to UCC by bus! Madness. It's only a 40 minute walk but when it's pissing rain or you have problems with certain areas sweating and rashing after more than 30 minutes of walking that's not so useful.

probe

Please re-read my posting and the attached document!

Trams running on rubber tyres don’t need tracks. They don’t de-rail. They are fast, silent and smog free because they run on electricity. You don’t have to dig-up the streets to remove services from under their pathway. BECAUSE THEY RUN ON RUBBER TYRES LIKE EVERY OTHER VEHICLE ON THE ROAD.

http://www.lohr.fr/download/Translohr_GB.zip

One can’t help feeling but that Cork deserves to be in the mess it is in, because the residents (including those who administer the place) are so negative and backward looking. Aside from the Green Party member who made a refreshing, forward looking suggestion this week about public transport in Cork. Which is so unusual in Irish politics!

.probe

dahamsta

probe wrote:

Cork deserves to be in the mess it is in, because the residents (including those who administer the place) are so negative and backward looking.

Why don't you f*ck off then?

~Rebel~

probe wrote:

the residents (including those who administer the place) are so negative and backward looking.

Hehe backward looking; http://www.rareads.com/scans1/31179.jpg

on topic though, those trams you posted the link to look the business! Wonder what the implementation costs would be.

dahamsta

~Rebel~ wrote:

HWonder what the implementation costs would be.

In Cork, twice what they'd be anywhere else in the world.

lostexpectation

probe wrote:

Please re-read my posting and the attached document!

Trams running on rubber tyres don’t need tracks. They don’t de-rail. They are fast, silent and smog free because they run on electricity. You don’t have to dig-up the streets to remove services from under their pathway. BECAUSE THEY RUN ON RUBBER TYRES LIKE EVERY OTHER VEHICLE ON THE ROAD.

http://www.lohr.fr/download/Translohr_GB.zip

One can’t help feeling but that Cork deserves to be in the mess it is in, because the residents (including those who administer the place) are so negative and backward looking. Aside from the Green Party member who made a refreshing, forward looking suggestion this week about public transport in Cork. Which is so unusual in Irish politics!

.probe

no rails? so the only difference between these and buses is that the pollute elsewhere and go fewer places?

Blitzkrieger

And take a week to turn a corner. Where's that PROC skit on the BUS?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Rebeller

probe wrote:

One can’t help feeling but that Cork deserves to be in the mess it is in, because the residents (including those who administer the place) are so negative and backward looking. Aside from the Green Party member who made a refreshing, forward looking suggestion this week about public transport in Cork. Which is so unusual in Irish politics!

I wholeheartedly agree. As a born and bred Corkonian I am often disgusted by the small town parochialism and gombeen attitudes of not only the elected representatives but those who vote for them.

Of course Cork needs a viable, efficient public transport system. The public transport debate in this country is entirely Dublin-centric with no regard being paid to the fact that traffic jams, long commutes and fume-filled city centres are facts of life in all major urban centres in Ireland.

What's intersting about the whole issue of public services in general and transport in particular is that in most developed, rich (and I'm tired of hearing how rich we supposedly are) countries those who are elected and paid to run the country on our behalf get on with the business of doing just that. Their job is to identify future need and provide for them. Their job is to use our money (taxes) to build and operate services so that our lives can be made as comfortable and stress free as possible.

Only in Ireland can we be praising the common sense proposals of political parties. It just goes to show how lacking in any type of common sense and vision all other parties are.

The reason why Cork is so backward and inward looking is the level of corruption and nepotism in the city's business and government.

All aspects of Cork economic life are controlled by a small group of vision-less, small-minded, gombeen cronyist cowboy builders, developers and business men (a prime example being the erector of those wonderful soviet style breeze block apartment complexes throughout the city)

For a prime example of the type of suspect planning and corrupt dealings going on in the city take a look at this article from Village Magazine.

It makes very interesting reading.

probe

dahamsta wrote:

Why don't you f*ck off then?

I’ve actually “****ed off” long ago. I am fortunate to live in one of the best run cities in the world. From where I can get to the nearest international airport in about 6 minutes – despite the fact that I live nowhere near the airport – thanks to excellent public transport.

All the urban buses here run on bio-fuel (made by http://www.vanhool.nl/products_bus.asp?ParentID=9) with upmarket livery, including air con, which makes the travel experience as pleasant as being in a car. A car that runs on bus lanes and you don’t have to park it when you arrive at your destination. The urban express trains are all duplex (double deck), run on carbon free energy, and are state of the art with electric power points at each seat for commuters who want to use their laptop or charge their mobile phone or MP3 player etc on their way home.

Every house here gets some of its heat from the sea which is warmer in winter than land temperatures, and most of the rest of the heat comes from their recycled waste and wood chippings/wood waste – (also used to generate the electricity). The same village heatpump system delivers air conditioning in the summer (again from sea warmth and waste recycling). As a result there are no landfills – everything is recycled into other useful materials or into energy. And electricity is cheap (about 9c/ kW).

It is the sort of place that you don’t need a car, because public transport is so good. If you decide to take the bus to the airport, it does a route around the town every hour so you don’t have to go to a “bus station” with your suitcase to pick the bus up. It comes to or near your door. If you do have a car, you seldom need to take it on the road. When you do it feels great. Familiarity breeds contempt – the car that is driven once or twice a week when you “feel the need” to drive is a pleasure in comparison.

If you call a taxi, chances are it will be a new Merc E class or similar (low CO2 diesel of course), as in many other countries on the continent. Because taxis have to meet minimum standards, unlike in Ireland, where they like to compete with Ryanair for vomit stains on the seats etc. And never a 1996 Japanese tin can, as is typical in Irish cities, including Cork.

They also don’t have to dig up the streets in my city for services, because when the town was planned, they got a guy in a JCB to dig a trench (2m deep) under the footpaths and lined the walls of same. Into this trench (ie a tunnel where workmen can walk around inside any time they need to do repairs) they put all the services – sewers, plumbing, electricity supply, phone cables, cable TV, water, and trash collection (no bin men every day or week) – rubbish is collected through a vacuum tube “plumbing” system (like a big vacuum cleaner) in real-time 24 hours a day – direct form your house to the recycling centre.

Nearly 100,000 new dwellings are built in Ireland every year without any consideration for state of the art planning, energy efficiency, public transport or anything else.

When I do visit Cork I stay where I can walk into town (avoiding traffic chaos and parking problems).

No country in the world has had so much in terms of financial resources per capita, and achieved so little in terms of improving quality of life and environmental sustainability.

.probe

embraer170

Probe:
You've left me curious, what city is that?

~Rebel~

I too am curious, sounds like the happiest place on earth!

Is it Berlin? a few of the things you said ring a few bells from when i was there, but wasnt there long so dont know enough.

ivuernis

probe wrote:

I am fortunate to live in one of the best run cities in the world

Fortunate.... but not necessarily deserving.

Amazotheamazing

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

That's what us Limerick folk get for having a main national route run right through the city centre, though the Cork bypass has been great. Hopefully the tunnel will make things a good bit easier.

On the plan for a Luas, It's worth investigating but it screams soundbite.

probe

It is not in Berlin . It is near the Med. Other than that I can’t say. Being near the sea or a large body of water is ideal for a communal heat pump system because the pipe grid can be laid on “land” that is not in private ownership and free for use. My greatest fear is that a few journos working for various Irish newspapers would come down here, check it out, and write a series of stories on the place! There is a lot to write about here in terms of how a city/country should be run.

My worry is that our property prices would skyrocket, Irish style. Within a short period, the place would be teaming with Irish owned SUVs (complete with bullbars) driving the short distance to the mall. (Most people here walk or use the bus when shopping). Irish style traffic jams and smog would quickly follow. Our nice clean streets, which are vacuumed and machine washed at around 05h30 every morning would have increasing amounts of Irish dropped litter, vomit and chewing gum blackspots everywhere, as Irish pubs and junk food stores move in to service the Irish market. No thanks.

A good example of how this place is run can be found in the public health system in the town. Last year, I was a patient in the public hospital. On arrival in A&E, I was seen to within literally ten seconds (I was not a hyper emergency case fortunately). The capacity was there to deal with people as they arrive without having to wait. They decided that I should stay a few nights – and they had a room ready for me within 2 minutes.

Patients in this hospital are connected to a high tech vital signs monitoring system – and a central computer on each floor monitors their status second by second 24/24h. If something nasty happens (like someone is heading towards a heart attack, the system automatically contacts the appropriate staff to provide immediate assistance). This system priorities the delivery of staff resources in real-time based on patients’ immediate needs. Fairly basic stuff in a hospital environment – yet seldom implemented, anywhere else. Think of all the lives it could save in hospitals if widely used. If a patient is on a drip and their bag runs out of “juice”, the system registers the event and prioritises it accordingly (ie one presumes a much lower priority).

This gives medical staff the ability to monitor dozens of patients as if they had eyes on the back of their head and intervene before events get critical. All medical records are updated in real time on a (secure web based interface) health system computer (eg you get a blood test for X and visit doctor Y and he can see the results of same on his pc web browser, the minute the test results are available – together with all your other data, medication you have been prescribed, allergies, BP, temperature, whatever tests are appropriate for your case). The health service is administered via a secure website, which gives everyone access to appropriate data on a need to know basis. It uses bog standard web server / database software – no re-inventing the wheel spending millions creating special / customised software. All the facilities – including toilets etc are kept spotlessly clean and every new diagnostic technology is available. Handwash facilities everywhere, which are in constant use by staff.

Each patient has a direct inwards dialling phone number – so when friends or family call they get straight through to the patient without going through the switchboard operator. If they move you to another room, you keep your DDI phone number (all you have to do is dial the 6 digit account code assigned to you on a bit of paper on arrival, at your new location, at any phone in the hospital, and that is where your incoming calls are delivered to until further notice. You dial the same code for an outside line, so that the calls are billed to your account – irrespective of the phone you are calling from. (They don’t like mobile phones to be used – due to the risk of it causing problems with sensitive medical diagnostic kit).

Every patient gets a computer generated food menu every day, which lists the range of food options they can take (within their diet / medial needs) and they can select their meals typically from a range of five options, for each course. If there is a particular test scheduled for a patient, and they have to stay off a particular food for 24 hours prior to the test, the menu they receive won’t have any meals with this ingredient listed. The menu order comes a day in advance, so that the hospital catering staff can order and produce exactly the required meals, offering a wide range of options with little waste in terms of unused food stocks and yet offer a wide choice.

If you have some friends visiting and you decide to have a party in your hospital room, you can order virtually anything (just like hotel room service) even a gourmet meal with wine or champagne for everyone visiting you. This is served by hotel trained staff, so you are not wasting nursing staff resources. You have to pay for it, as you would anywhere – it is not included on your medical insurance plan obviously. But this enlightened public hospital sees it as a beneficial part of a patient’s recovery process to have people visiting and having a good time. Why shouldn’t the same service be available in every hospital?

One thing that hits one when arriving in Cork is the number of obese or overweight people walking around. While I am not a doctor I suspect that poor diet among a large proportion of the population is a major contributor to hospital waiting lists. The French government health experts found the link between obesity and illness over 100 years ago and the country implemented a comprehensive education system in schools and to parents on the need for moderation in eating and this is now in the culture. With the result that you come across very few obese people in France. And the French health system has saved itself €zillions over the years as a result!

I was looking at a crèche the other day in my town. A collection of recently built state of the art timber buildings in a public park, run by the local Red Cross, within walking distance of most homes using the facility, away from traffic and similar risks. In addition to the usual toys and amusements, ducks and other wildlife inhibit the environment. [Wildlife in this area is not afraid of human beings and the kids can get up close to them and they typically don’t fly away when approached]. When you think about it, a public park is about the safest, healthiest, most fun place for a crèche to be located.

I could go on and write a book about the town and how it is run. But it is just all common sense stuff – all within reach of a modern society. Everything they do in this town gets a lot of thought put into it. Political considerations are not allowed get in the way, because the powers that be know that the population will be happy when the place is well run.

.probe

dahamsta

You can't say? Are you a sekrit agunt?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

parsi

I know where it is - it's Hav !

http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/generalfiction/0,,1779644,00.html

dahamsta

The thing that confuses me is why someone so utterly (self-)satisfied with the place they live and their life in general, is spending time on the Cork forum on Boards.ie. I think perhaps I've been feeding a troll. How embarassing.

adam

probe

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

It is my fear that an influx of Irish people would drive up property prices in this town which has very limited area to expand (because it is surrounded by mountains). Call me selfish, but I don’t want property prices in the area to rise to Shrewsbury Road levels. It has a far better climate than D4 (it hasn’t rained for at least two months), a major airport close by, and it wouldn’t take much to fill the place to overflowing.

As a consequence, there would be few people available to clean the streets or work in the hospitals or do most of the things that makes this place special. Because most of the great people who make this place work could no longer afford to live in the area.

All I am suggesting is that Ireland (and Cork in particular, given that it hasn’t reached the same level of saturation of everything at Dublin) gets its public transport, planning, health services, sustainable energy systems, etc up to best practice levels as they are close to achieving where I currently live.

The notion that Cork doesn’t need trams and doesn’t have a traffic problem is head in the sand stuff. The same sort of short-termist thinking that gave Dublin a four lane M50 - barely good enough for five years from the date it opened. A large city near me has an 8 lane motorway ring road which was originally developed in the 1920s. The city has half the population of Dublin and nothing like the traffic problems. They are currently planning an additional outer motorway ring road to deal with traffic growth over the next 20 to 30 years. Before the issue becomes a problem – rather than in arrears as is so often the case in procrastinative Ireland.

.probe

lostinsuperfunk

The notion that Cork doesn’t need trams and doesn’t have a traffic problem is head in the sand stuff.

I completely agree with you there, although coming on a Cork forum and calling us morons and backward looking is a bit troll-ish. To the other posters, yes, better bus lanes would go a long way to solving our current problems, but we need to at least start planning (if not building) for the future now. The population of outlying districts is increasing and will continue to increase, but many of these people will end up commuting to the city.

CPO's should be issued now to acquire land along corridors suitable for
light rail or guided busways from the city centre to Douglas/Carrigaline, Mayfield/Glanmire, Bishopstown/Ballincollig. We should learn a lesson from Dublin and not wait until the place is completely gridlocked before doing this. The area along the quay behind the train station should be kept for public transport usage - turn the train station around to face the rest of the city! - instead of selling it all off to a property developer. However, I believe that it will be very difficult to do any of this without stronger local government. Although Cork City Council is quite good at what it does within the limitations imposed on it, we should really have professional, well-paid, full-time councillors, local taxes paid directly to the city/county council, and a Cork Transportation Authority with the ability to plan and build infrastructure. And finally [personal rant] we should demolish every car park on the central island and build a few more car parks around the periphery (a la Carroll's Quay, Anglesea St) instead and create more park and ride services[/personal rant].

BTW, my guess is that Probe lives in Nice.:eek:

Blitzkrieger

probe wrote:

The notion that Cork doesn’t need trams and doesn’t have a traffic problem is head in the sand stuff.

Nobody disagrees with you on that point. We just don't want to see another hugely expensive embarassment like the Luas.

probe

lostinsuperfunk wrote:

BTW, my guess is that Probe lives in Nice.:eek:

It would be nice if Nice was as well run as my town. Nice will even have trams within the next few months. However it is not Nice. They don’t have the communal integrated energy system recycling their rubbish and sea temperature differentials into green hot water, air conditioning, electricity and space heating using heat exchangers. It is missing a few other things too…

If I was living in Nice I wouldn’t be worried about the impact of Irish buyers arriving en masse – it is a big place and they would have a limited impact on the market.

Moving back to Cork, while I agree that there needs to be some agency charged with the delivery of high quality public transport on an integrated basis, (pedantic mode=on) I don’t like the idea of calling it an “Authority”. Smells like “Dublin Airport Authority” (worst airport operator in the EU, aside from BAA (as in British Airports Authority) who operates the London airports – ranked bottom in a recent EU survey of airports). Or “National Roads Authority” – who doggedly presides over the worst motorway network in Europe without service areas for people to rest, eat, and get fuel etc. The only “motorway” in Cork City or County (“the Fermoy bypass”) is narrower than the toll-free ordinary road that connects with it! It is also poorly signposted (even some of the speed limit signs don’t comply with Irish or international regulations). And the tolling is pig inefficient – no credit cards accepted. No change from the self service lane coin baskets. (This is not the M50 with 100,000 vehicles per day). Rip-off Ireland. A poor quality but hyper expensive motorway system run by backstreet operators. The road surface is not up to best practice standards either.

Public transport is all about customer service. The word “service” should be in any agency’s name and in their charter and in everybody’s job description and all their advertising etc. And they should be required to live up to the word.

The most successful public transport system in the world is in Zurich. In Zurich Canton every public expenditure exceeding CHF 10 M requires a referendum for the public to agree on an investment proposal. The politicians and administrators tried to foist a metro on the city several times and the proposals were thrown out when it came to the vote. Zurich has always had trams, and the people wanted more of them. And no metro. Waiting for a tram is like waiting for an elevator in a skyscraper – you wouldn’t dream of using your car in Zurich because public transport is so good – just as you wouldn’t dream of using the stairs to get to the 20th floor in a tall building. In Zurich the tram lines act as arteries. Buses feed the tram system at various points, and their arrival and departure is coordinated with tram arrivals. Buses stay out of the city centre (as do cars and other vehicles for the most part). Buses therefore run on time because they don't get stuck in city centre traffic. Trams run on time because they get priority from the traffic management computer system (the traffic light control system has the tram timetable in its database and takes it into consideration when changing a traffic light to green or red).

It seems to me that Cork would be well served by two tram lines – one running East/West and the other North South with suburban feeder buses and other modes (e.g. public elevators (as in Genoa) and funicular railways to bring people from hilly areas to city centre levels.

The other issue is the maintenance of public transport vehicles in Cork. It is appalling. Buses are filthy and bodywork damage remains un-repaired for months or longer. An ugly, unattractive "system". Ugly livery too. The buses themselves are of poor quality and of course they all run on polluting mineral diesel. Bus Éireann do a lousy job in the city, and there is no excuse for it.

http://www.ecoplan.org/politics/general/zurich.htm

.probe

parsi

probe wrote:

It seems to me that Cork would be well served by two tram lines – one running East/West and the other North South

.probe

Ah yes - I can see it now - a Citadis zooming up Shandon St or Cathedral Road. Cork City -the only tramway system using the Abt rack system.

galwayrush

we've had a similar proposal for Galway City from the Greens as well.and we know that it's going to happen here.........:D

Faith

Nah, I'm going to guess that probe lives in Montpellier. S/he referenced it earlier as having a tram system. I spent a summer there learning french, and it's a nice place, but boring as hell, and certainly not all the OP cracked it up to be.

That is assuming I'm correct about the location.

StandnDeliver

the boring old dinosaurs in the county council need to get there thumbs out..

I mean the sugar beet factuary in mallow would have been an excellent plant to make bio-fuel to run cars,bu tdo they look tho the future noooooo.They had all the equipment there to make it work.But they just see the €€€€ signs.

Cork county council and City council have a lot to answer for,Instead of giving the lord major a chaufeer driven merc,and a pay rise to where a gammy chain,Why not do something worthwhile with the dosh,Instead of visiting the primary schools promoting their party!!!

Blitzkrieger

I know I'd love a bio fuel car.

parsi

Faith wrote:

Nah, I'm going to guess that probe lives in Montpellier. S/he referenced it earlier as having a tram system. I spent a summer there learning french, and it's a nice place, but boring as hell, and certainly not all the OP cracked it up to be.

That is assuming I'm correct about the location.

Anywhere so bloody perfect would have to be boring - "Singapore by the sea"