Time to bring back the death penalty

Benedict XVI

A post office worker dies after being shot during a raid.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1208/kilkenny.html

It’s time we brought back the death penalty to get rid of this sort of low life. Life sentence for armed robber and execution for murder. They would be no loss to society.

Thank God the guards shot dead 2 of these scum during a botched raid last year, pity they were not at hand today.

Bob the Builder

Well, maybe not that harsh but we should throw them in prison and make them eat pig sh!te for a couple of years...which is simply more harsh!
..and yes, there would be more of a positive to society than a negative....

Rebeller

Benedict XVI wrote:

It’s time we brought back the death penalty to get rid of this sort of low life. Life sentence for armed robber and execution for murder. They would be no loss to society.

What are your views on abortion as a matter of interest? The reason I ask is that I have often found that those who support the death penalty have no problems in reconciling such a view with their strong moral opposition to abortion.

His life was taken by some scum bag who was probably working for a drug gabg or on drugs himself. One less of them in teh world would be no harm

I agree and have little sympathy for those who take the life of innocent people. Poverty, addiction and social exclusion can never justify the taking of life.

However, if the State provides that the deliberate or negligent taking of a life is a crime (murder or manslaughter) how can the same State then turn around and commit the same crime itself by executing the murderer?

jhegarty

Rebeller wrote:

What are your views on abortion as a matter of interest? The reason I ask is that I have often found that those who support the death penalty have no problems in reconciling such a view with their strong moral opposition to abortion.

because its strange that people want to treat unborn babys differently to people who murder ?

mike65

A pope seeks death penalty. How apt!

Mike.

Benedict XVI

jhegarty wrote:

because its strange that people want to treat unborn babys differently to people who murder ?

Exactly, a unborn baby has great potential, a murderer is of no value to society.

Right All the off topic stuff is being deleted.

Those that want to discuss the Nally/Ward case can do so in a separate thread.
I'd respectfully suggest waiting though untill the trial is over.

Any more off topic postings I see in this thread will be deleted and the poster warned.
Repreated infractions will result in a one week ban.

aidan24326

Benedict XVI wrote:

It’s time we brought back the death penalty to get rid of this sort of low life.

I'd love to get rid of some of these lowlife myself, but the death penalty is NOT the answer.

They would be no loss to society

True. They certainly wouldn't. But the death penalty is no deterrent anyway, and that should always be the aim, to deter the criminal in the first place. Once the murder has been committed, executing the murderer is merely an act of retribution, it achieves nothing and will not bring the back the person who's dead. It has been proven over to be quite useless as a deterrent to serious crime.

vesp

aidan24326 wrote:

But the death penalty is no deterrent anyway, nd that should always be the aim, to deter the criminal in the first place. Once the murder has been committed, executing the murderer is merely an act of retribution, it achieves nothing and will not bring the back the person who's dead. It has been proven over to be quite useless as a deterrent to serious crime.

Death penalty no deterrent ? Do not know about that. On this island, if those who murdered knew they themselves would be executed if they got caught....would the troubles have been so bad ( on both sides ) in the seventies etc ? Just a question. After all, DeValera executed some IRA men in the early 1940's, and there was no big public outcry. If a few had been executed in '69 or '70 or '71, would things have dragged on for so long and so many innocent people been killed and injured ?

easyontheeye

Benedict XVI wrote:

It’s time we brought back the death penalty to get rid of this sort of low life.

I second this!

Sure ok stick them in prison for the rest of their lives (where they will cost the tax payer a fortune!)...you aint guaranteed even life these days.

It wouldnt be so bad if they were made do manual labour like cleaning streets rubbish etc at least they would be some use to the tax payer!!

preferred option) death penalty

second option) manual labour WITH life prison

Nevyn

We did have the death penalty option for some murders, the scentce gets passed and then is commuted by presidental pardon.
There may come a time where the president is not so inclinded.

I don't think the lack of it in the last 4 years has made a big difference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

delos

vesp wrote:

Death penalty no deterrent ? Do not know about that. On this island, if those who murdered knew they themselves would be executed if they got caught....would the troubles have been so bad ( on both sides ) in the seventies etc ? Just a question. After all, DeValera executed some IRA men in the early 1940's, and there was no big public outcry. If a few had been executed in '69 or '70 or '71, would things have dragged on for so long and so many innocent people been killed and injured ?

The attitude of society was probably somewhat different in the 40s than it is today with respect to capital punishment. If you are referring to the executions just after the outbreak of WWII, I'm pretty sure that they were in response to the raids carried out on the free state army bases which was tantamount to a declaration of war by the IRA.

As for the 70s I think rather than shortening the conflict the effect of state execution here (let alone any carried out by the British authorities) would have created martyrs and prolonged the conflict.

spanner

I would not like to see the case in america were the death penalty is use so freely even excuting mentally challenged people. But I do agree in bringing back the death penalty for extreme cases. I think there is people that evil and vicious that they are still a danger to society even in prison. Weather or not it decreases murder rates doesnt really bother me, just that there is some people that evil, they deserve not to live and will always be a danger to us if they do.

Is there a law in the EU making the death penalty illegal

Manic Moran

aidan24326 wrote:

Once the murder has been committed, executing the murderer is merely an act of retribution, it achieves nothing and will not bring the back the person who's dead.

It can, however, bring peace of mind and closure to the relatives of the person murdered.

NTM

trentf

You know what. I was just thinking about this myself. I think its time now to implement the death penalty in cases like this. The amount of crime partcicularly shootings is rising in ireland and there appears to be a criminal element who are getting completely out of control.

Whats clear is that the gardai just as an uarmed force cannot cope with this problem. The amount of guns and drugs being imported now is beyond their control and there are people who for whatever reason be it poverty, being off their heads on drugs or just the fact that they can use a gun are murdering innocent people now.

A few years back when this criminal element was using guns to kill each other nobody seemed to care now it seems innocent people such as this postmaster and earlier in the year the woman who died at a party as a result of a driveby shooting are getting killed.

IMO society has a choice continue to accept this behaviourm which i believe all data and what has happened in other countries points to a worsening of the situation or take drastic action. In the end of the day it is about preserving the safety of society at the cost of human rights ie the death penalty or having innocent people die because the criminals dont fear reprecussions.

I believe whats required is a mixture of approaches to this problem. We have already tried the social aspect ie the government has poured miilions in social activities for disadvantaged areas and some of these ppl it seems are still hellbent on continuing their criminal activities. Enough is enough drastic action needs to be taken.. and in my own opinion you need to respond to the lack of respect for human life that these people have with a deterrent and unfortunately the only deterrent these people understand is life imprisonment or the death penalty. PS sorry bout the long post ...

spanner

Manic Moran wrote:

It can, however, bring peace of mind and closure to the relatives of the person murdered.

NTM

I agree, people who are that evil will always pose a risk to society and it does help relatives

Redrocket

manual labour instead of babysitting might do something good
10 years of cuttin corn by hand or breaking up stone by sledge!
might make them think twice, especially for re-offenders

spanner

trentf wrote:

Whats clear is that the gardai just as an uarmed force cannot cope with this problem. The amount of guns and drugs being imported now is beyond their control and there are people who for whatever reason be it poverty, being off their heads on drugs or just the fact that they can use a gun are murdering innocent people now.
QUOTE]

I dont know if the death penalty would help reduce gun crime wave as this is linked to the wave of drugs and the money that is been made from it. However I think we should bring it in more for "use" rather than "them"

trentf

spanner wrote:

I dont know if the death penalty would help reduce gun crime wave as this is linked to the wave of drugs and the money that is been made from it. However I think we should bring it in more for "use" rather than "them"

Sure, Don't get me wrong here. I agree the death penalty is not the solution to criminal activites or the import of drugs. What im saying is that in a situation where criminals have no regard for life and are so callous as to murder a man who was only acting in instinct to defend his property then in my opinion they should be dealt the death penalty.

Unfortunately these types of people dont fear or has any regard for our justice system which operates a largely unarmed police force and whom regularly hands down unfair sentencing for crimes such as murder.

Its more of an all round policy that is needed ie a mixture of tougher sentencing laws and proper enforcement, schemes to help people get out of social inequality etc. But this has coupled with consequences for those who engage in extreme criminal activity such as the murder of this man today.

It sounds harsh i agree and im all for human rights, but unfortunately human nature is such that some people only respond to cause and effect when they understand the consequences of such activites.

lostexpectation

it seems a haveago hero challenging an armed robber brings about the possibilty of a death sentence

Gurgle

I'm pro death penalty in principle, but never in practice.

You make that sort of power available, people will find a way to use it towards their own ends.

It would have been a bit inconvienent in the McBearty case for example. Sadam Hussein's show trial was worthy of Stalin & Co., in parts of the US they will merrily murder anyone who can't afford a good lawyer.

Despite the fact that there are many criminals who fully deserve it, the potential for abuse far outweighs the advantage of burying them rather than lock them up forever. Of course hard labour would be the best plan, but apparently thats inhumane (while capital punishment isn't?).

As for this case in particular - wtf did this guy think he was doing chasing an armed robber?

Its not as if the robber shot first then took the money and ran. He was gone, and the threat to the safety of the post office workers was gone with him but this guy decided to play the hero?

Hagar

Hanging, now that's what I call a suspended sentence.

Sparks

Yeah, let's bring back the implementation of the death penalty. I mean, look at how successful killing people has been as a deterrent to crime and a means of achieving justice in Northern Ireland. Er, okay, maybe Palestine? Um. Okay, what about Iraq? Ah. Right. Okay, so everywhere in the West where the ruling authority starts executing people it seems to backfire. Maybe we should just all move to China so, it's not like they've got dissidents of any kind, right Taiwan?

:rolleyes:

Why you lot just don't come out and say you want to kill someone yourselves I don't know. It'd be far more honest.

MeatProduct

Hopefully we'll stop killing eachother in the next few hundred years. Never has worked in the past but we are very slow learners

2000 years to get to grips with "Thou shalt not kill".

Nick

vesp

delos wrote:

The attitude of society was probably somewhat different in the 40s than it is today with respect to capital punishment. If you are referring to the executions just after the outbreak of WWII, I'm pretty sure that they were in response to the raids carried out on the free state army bases which was tantamount to a declaration of war by the IRA.

Well if it was good enough for Irish society to execute some IRA in the 1940's, and there was no outcry, and it worked ie the IRA violence did not escalete in the 40's - why was it not a good enough tactic for the government to use in later decades. If you condone execution in response to the raids carried out on the free state army bases in the 40's, why not condone execution on the killers of Jerry McCabe or the other Irish security forces killed in the 70's, 80's,90's etc eg the Irish soldier shot in the woods in the 80's looking for the IRA kidnap victim.

As I said, just a question. On the other side, maybe if the Shankhill butchers knew what awaited them if they got caught they would also have thought twice before resorting to violence ?

gurramok

Benedict XVI wrote:

A post office worker dies after being shot during a raid.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1208/kilkenny.html

It’s time we brought back the death penalty to get rid of this sort of low life. Life sentence for armed robber and execution for murder. They would be no loss to society.

Thank God the guards shot dead 2 of these scum during a botched raid last year, pity they were not at hand today.

No point in bringing back death penalty with no proper law enforcement?

85% of gun murders in last 10 years remain unsolved, as long as there is tolerance from the authorities of gun carrying scum with no threat of them being caught, incidents like yesterday will keep popping up unfortunately.

Bringing back death penalty will not make one iota of a difference.

Longer sentencing and less privileges in prison(take away their gyms/tv's) will mean a prision sentence is punishment, also putting them to work like the chain gangs in USA will help them redeem themselves in society.

Villain

We already have the death penalty in this state, its just not our justice system which uses it, its normally drug dealers or gang members or like yesterday armed robbers.

The problem is this death penalty isn't delivered in accordance with any law or system, its simply scum of the earth taking lives as see fit.

I tell you thing we need is a Minister for Justice who will tackle the issues head on instead of deflecting the news with soundbites about the sentences judges are handing down. He's the Minister ffs he can introduce minimum sentencing for crimes. But instead he just blaims the judges, are we ever going to get any kind of accountability in this Government.

I'm all in favour of the death penalty for those convicted of murder I'd even support public stoning's but I don't think it will make much difference to our murder rates tbh.

Blackjack

as per the 21st amendment to the constitution, (Link previously provided by another posted in this thread) we can't bring it back.

Not a bad thing IMHO.

Rebeller

jhegarty wrote:

because its strange that people want to treat unborn babys differently to people who murder ?

What if you could know with absolute certainty that the unborn baby would would in later years become a murderous heroin fueled junkie? For example if genetic determination reached such a stage that murderous tendencies could be traced back to one or several genes.Would it then be OK to abort (or murder, depending on your belief) the foetus?

My opposition to the death penalty is based on the belief that no system of justice completely fair and impartial In other words, there is always the risk that due to oversight or design an innocent person will be out to death by the state.

We have had several instances of miscarriages of justice in this state the most notable being the Dean Lyons case. Now, if capital punishment was still an available penalty in this jurisdiction the likelihood is that that innocent man would have been murdered by the state for a crime he did not commit, for a crime to which he confessed after intense psychological and physical intimidation was practiced by the interrogating gardai involved in the case.

Instead of looking at populist, quick-fix solutions to the rising level of violent crime perhaps we should instead investigate possible causes so they can be addressed.

I believe that it is the increasing fragmentation and economic and social inequality of Irish society (manufactured by the muppets who we continuously elect to power) with too great an emphasis being out on material gain and possession that is leading to a total disregard for human life.

Would it not be more advantageous to us all if the causes of crime could be at least reduced if not eliminated alltogether?

Surely it would be better to reduce the number of murders and save lives by addressing underlying social problems rather than acting after the fact and executing the murderers?

As said by others, murdering the murder will not bring back the victim.

Do you have enough faith in the impartiality and fairness of the Irish justice system to say with absolute certainty that there is no risk of abuse of power, corruption and incompetence (and we have enough of all three in other areas where the state acts) leading to the killing of innocent people at the hands of the state?

For those who say, "well...it's a price worth paying (executing the odd innocent person) if it means deterring murder"

would you be happy give your own life or that of a family member (i.e. if wrongfully convicted of murder and put to death) because your wrongful death would deter future murders?

You only have to look at the situation in the US (the only western country to still practice the death penalty by the way) to see that state murder does not deter citizen murder.

Let's take Texas:

Population: approx. 23 million
Murder rate per 100,000 population: 6.2
Number of people executed since 1976: 755

Statistics

The above would suggest to me that even though the Texan authorities are executing people at the rate of around 9 a year their murder rate is still over 5 times that of Ireland.

Population of Ireland: approx 4.2 million
Murder rate per 100,000 population: 1.38
Number of people executed since 1976: 0

Direct download of Garda Report

The intelligent response to an ever violent society is not ever violent law enforcement but instead the tackling of underlying issues.

Notwithstanding the above, murder is the most serious of crimes and should receive a correspondingly serious punishment (incarceration until death by natural causes).

However, state murder is not the right way to address it.

vesp

The U.S. is not comparable to Ireland , not least because everyone in the us has access to guns, with which most murders / shootings are committed. And if you pick Texas as an example, I bet Texas must be one of the best states there ( out of 50 odd ) with the statistics to best suit your argument.

Manic Moran

vesp wrote:

The U.S. is not comparable to Ireland , not least because everyone in the us has access to guns,

I presume you mean everyone has access to guns if they're willing to break the law. Things get a little more complicated depending on issues like age and criminal record, before you get to the various restrictions on where/when you can be armed.

as per the 21st amendment to the constitution, (Link previously provided by another posted in this thread) we can't bring it back.

Sure you can. Just put in another ammendment. Witness the 18th and 23rd Ammendments to the US Constitution.

NTM

vesp

Manic Moran wrote:

I presume you mean everyone has access to guns if they're willing to break the law.

There are countless more guns in circulation there than in Ireland. I am not saying that is a good or bad thing, thats the way it is and murders / deaths by shooting go up if people have such easy access to guns, especially when drugs,drink, crime etc are thrown in to the equation.

Orchard Rebel

Manic Moran wrote:

I presume you mean everyone has access to guns if they're willing to break the law. Things get a little more complicated depending on issues like age and criminal record, before you get to the various restrictions on where/when you can be armed.



Sure you can. Just put in another ammendment. Witness the 18th and 23rd Ammendments to the US Constitution.

It's not quite that simple. Protocols 6 and 13 to the European Convention on Human Rights have effectively abolished the death penalty in the EU in perpetuity. Applicants (such as Turkey) must therefore abolish it before they can join.

The only way to reinstate it in Ireland would be to leave the EU or else to repeal the ECHR and start again.The right wing government in Poland recently tried to raise the issue but got nowhere, as (I suspect) you'd need to get every member state to agree - an impossibility.

Firetrap

The death penalty isn't a deterrent in the USA. There'd be no death row if it was. The key is to find a punishment that fits the crime. For many people in Mountjoy, being in prison isn't a deterrent but a thing that crops up in their lives from time to time. Personally, I'd like to see criminals being made to do useful stuff like clean up dilapidated areas, clean graffiti etc. but of course the logistics of that are impossible.

DonJose

The scumbag who shot the postal worker was a Chinese national of no fixed abode, Shu Shen, is Chinese if I am not mistaken. If this crime was commited in China he would have a speed trial and a speedy execution with a bullet to the back of the head. His family would then receive a bill for the price of the bullet used. Instead we the taxpayers are going to pay roughly €100,000 each year to keep this scumbag behind bars.

gandalf

So are you saying that we should implement the death penalty based on race or country of origin?

Villain

I tell you one thing I would love to know, how the hell did a failed Asylum Seeker with no fixed abode get his hands on a gun??

They should hunt down whoever gave/sold it to him and send him/her down for a long time

Manic Moran

gandalf wrote:

So are you saying that we should implement the death penalty based on race or country of origin?

Without going to that extent, there is an argument to the level that we must adjust our law enforcement attitudes to adjust to the attitudes of the immigrant threat: For example, until recently, most Irish crooks didn't really look kindly to the idea of killing a Gard. Recent immigrants from places where the government agencies are 'fair game' and play tougher are not suddenly going to become 'nicer' and give the authorities a break simply because we are used to playing by our rules, and our rules are nicer than theirs.

NTM

DonJose

gandalf wrote:

So are you saying that we should implement the death penalty based on race or country of origin?

I would prefer if the government sent him back to China to let him stand trial for murder and sentence him accordingly, bullet in the back of the head.

He was a failed asylum seeker, in this country 3 years and awaiting an appeal. Once he failed in his asylum application the Government should have put into detention to await the outcome of the appeal. This is of little consoliation for a family who will now have to bury a son over the Christmas period. Another death on the governments hands.

DonJose

irish1 wrote:

I tell you one thing I would love to know, how the hell did a failed Asylum Seeker with no fixed abode get his hands on a gun??

Two words, Triad Gangs. This government is selling the safety of Irish citizens by allow tens of thousands of chinese "students" into the country without even following up to see if they left the country after their visas expired. This is only going to get worse bearing in mind there are over 100,000 of them in this country.

Villain

DonJose wrote:

I would prefer if the government sent him back to China to let him stand trial for murder and sentence him accordingly, bullet in the back of the head.

He was a failed asylum seeker, in this country 3 years and awaiting an appeal. Once he failed in his asylum application the Government should have put into detention to await the outcome of the appeal. This is of little consoliation for a family who will now have to bury a son over the Christmas period. Another death on the governments hands.

Excellent point imo, I agree he should be trialed in his home country.

I also agree that the system that deals with asylum seekers has a lot to answer for. Applications should be dealth with within 3 months and appeals within 1 month. We have the money to supply the resources needed to achieve this the Government just aren't acting.

oscarBravo

DonJose, Shu Shen hasn't been convicted of anything. Tone down the rhetoric, pronto.

Sleipnir

DonJose wrote:

Two words, Triad Gangs. This government is selling the safety of Irish citizens by allow tens of thousands of chinese "students" into the country without even following up to see if they left the country after their visas expired. This is only going to get worse bearing in mind there are over 100,000 of them in this country.

So the thousands of students are actually members of triad gangs? Planning to overthrow the Ming Dynasty in Ireland no doubt?

One lone man shots someone dead and now you're talking about triad gangs taking over the country.

You'll be saying the jews are the reason the country is in a state next.

Sleipnir

irish1 wrote:

Excellent point imo, I agree he should be trialed in his home country.

I also agree that the system that deals with asylum seekers has a lot to answer for. Applications should be dealth with within 3 months and appeals within 1 month. We have the money to supply the resources needed to achieve this the Government just aren't acting.

For a crime he (allegedly) commited here? Why?

This has nothing to do with asylum. How many post offices have been raided by irish people compared to foreigners over the past 5 years?
How many murders have been commited by irish people compared to foreigners in the past 5 years?

oscarBravo

Sleipnir wrote:

Grow up.

Careful now.

oscarBravo

Sleipnir wrote:

For a crime he commited here?

Would an "allegedly" be too much to ask for?

I agree with the sentiment, though. Suspects always stand trial in the country where the crime was committed. Suggesting that someone should be tried elsewhere simply because elsewhere has the death penalty is on moral par with extraordinary rendition.

DonJose

oscarBravo wrote:

DonJose, Shu Shen hasn't been convicted of anything. Tone down the rhetoric, pronto.

Sorry I forgot about the innocent till proven crap. Look he was caught, with literally a smoking gun and the cash from the robbery by a persuing policeman, the garda are not looking for any suspects.

oscarBravo

...or, y'know, don't bother toning it down. Have a week off, on me.

Rebeller

Manic Moran wrote:

we must adjust our law enforcement attitudes to adjust to the attitudes of the immigrant threat

The "immigrant threat". Sounds very like the tired rhetoric of this lot to me:eek:

While I'm not denying the existence of criminal elements amongst our immigrant community I think we have far more to fear from the crooks already ru(i)ning this country (aka soldiers of crookery) than from any outside threat.

Manic Moran wrote:

until recently, most Irish crooks didn't really look kindly to the idea of killing a Gard.

:rolleyes:
This has to be the most outrageous statement I've ever come across in my short time on these forums!

So our "own" nice cosy patriotic criminals would never think about shooting members of the state's security forces?

Now, that statement holds about as much weight as a bag of helium.

No member of the Gardai were killed in the line of duty between 1942 and 1970. Since then I think 14 have lost their lives, all killed by those very same patriotic, decent homegrown criminals you are referring to:mad:

DonJose wrote:

Two words, Triad Gangs. This government is selling the safety of Irish citizens by allow tens of thousands of chinese "students" into the country without even following up to see if they left the country after their visas expired

That' a good point:rolleyes:

Our heavenly green isle of Erin was pure and untouched before these murderous Asian hordes invaded our land. Decent Irish criminals (if there even were any criminals of course) spent their days helping old ladies across the road and trying to keep heroin and other society destroying drugs out of our most impoverished communities.

This paradisical ideal came to an end with the jailing of John "Robin Hood" Gilligan in 2001 and the beginning of the triad intervention in Ireland. What with the decent community protecting Irish gangs now locked up for crimes they didn't commit the way was clear for the evil triads to invade and begin their rampage of murder, rape and social destruction.:D

Andrew 83

I'm completely against the death penalty in all circumstances. No one has the right to end another human life, even if the offender has broken this themselves.

Villain

Sleipnir wrote:

For a crime he (allegedly) commited here? Why?

This has nothing to do with asylum. How many post offices have been raided by irish people compared to foreigners over the past 5 years?
How many murders have been commited by irish people compared to foreigners in the past 5 years?

Because IMO (its just my opinion btw) I don't see why I as a taxpayer should have to pay to keep him in jail for 20 years (if convicted) in this state.

We may not have asylum seekers robbing post offices everyday or even committing crime, but imo the system is still too slow, and if this man's case had been dealth with in a timely manner just maybe the Murdered Post Master might be alive to have xmas dinner on the 25th.

But hey if you feel comfortable paying for this alleged Murdering scumbag to sit in our prison for the next 20 years that your opinion and on here thats worth as much as mine.

Edit* Sorry Mod's for going off topic