Tournament Life Syndrome - Part 1 (IF) AND 2 (when, where, how etc)

kincsem

cardshark202 wrote:

The guy who folded KK to AK preflop is actually quite retarded. Simple as that. The fact he has won three bracelets means he just got luckier than a lot of other retards.

But if you are up against the chip leader, and you know all your chips will be needed to defend the hand?

KK v AK .... that's the hand that knocked me out of the Gutshot £500 a couple of years ago. I raised with KK and was re-raised by the player to my immediate left with AK. With some of your stack in the middle you are getting good odds. But if I knew his hand, we both had massive stacks, and I had only a small number of chips in the middle I would fold.

Luke Ivory was opposite me. I said "I'm calling, and there's one card I don't want to see". Immediately Luke said "You have pocket kings". Now that's sharp.

It's was about 65/35. Of course an ace flopped.

By the way I was in a tourney in the Merrion when two of use folded KK pre-flop, and we were correct in our reads. I was third to speak and knew I was against AA and KK.

On another night in the Merrion the last eighteen were getting €200 guaranteed (it was a freeroll). With nineteen left the two chipleaders got it all in the centre. And we were down to eighteen.

bops

ntlbell wrote:

Regardless of the internal calculator, TLS EV and CEV I just want to be able to play like bops

lol -though you'd be banned by now??

mewso

kincsem wrote:

KK v AK .... that's the hand that knocked me out of the Gutshot £500 a couple of years ago. I raised with KK and was re-raised by the player to my immediate left with AK. With some of your stack in the middle you are getting good odds. But if I knew his hand, we both had massive stacks, and I had only a small number of chips in the middle I would fold.

You can't mean this surely?

Ste05

musician wrote:

You can't mean this surely?

I certainly hope not... And it's not even the first hand of the WSOP!!!!

5starpool

kincsem wrote:

But if you are up against the chip leader, and you know all your chips will be needed to defend the hand?

KK v AK .... that's the hand that knocked me out of the Gutshot £500 a couple of years ago. I raised with KK and was re-raised by the player to my immediate left with AK. With some of your stack in the middle you are getting good odds. But if I knew his hand, we both had massive stacks, and I had only a small number of chips in the middle I would fold.

Luke Ivory was opposite me. I said "I'm calling, and there's one card I don't want to see". Immediately Luke said "You have pocket kings". Now that's sharp.

It's was about 65/35. Of course an ace flopped.

By the way I was in a tourney in the Merrion when two of use folded KK pre-flop, and we were correct in our reads. I was third to speak and knew I was against AA and KK.

On another night in the Merrion the last eighteen were getting €200 guaranteed (it was a freeroll). With nineteen left the two chipleaders got it all in the centre. And we were down to eighteen.

And you wonder why I am always calling you tight? That would be an atrocious fold, unless you knew there was an A on the flop too of course.

bops

kincsem wrote:

KK v AK .... that's the hand that knocked me out of the Gutshot £500 a couple of years ago. I raised with KK and was re-raised by the player to my immediate left with AK. With some of your stack in the middle you are getting good odds. But if I knew his hand, we both had massive stacks, and I had only a small number of chips in the middle I would fold.

my internal calculator just broke

kincsem

I've read somewhere that it might be a good idea to fold AA v 27 preflop.

In this situation. There are two tables of five left. You are a massive chipleader and everyone on your table is surrendering the blinds trying to survive to the final nine (paying nine tonight). You fold to the 27 smallstack, keeping him on life-support, as you don't want your table to break. The players on the other table have equal stacks, and are just passing the blinds to each other. You want to keep hammering the players who have reasonable chips on your table.

IMO your tournament will be short if you keep taking 60/40 gambles in an even stack table in the early stages.

5starpool

kincsem wrote:

IMO your tournament will be short if you keep taking 60/40 gambles in an even stack table in the early stages.

IMO your tournament will be short stacked and lingering if you keep passing up 60-40 shots. If you knew a particular play always goes all in on the first hand of a tournie, regardless of his holding, would you fold AK? I know I certainly wouldn't, yet you are likely to be 60-40 against his random hand.

kincsem wrote:

I've read somewhere that it might be a good idea to fold AA v 27 preflop.

In this situation. There are two tables of five left. You are a massive chipleader and everyone on your table is surrendering the blinds trying to survive to the final nine (paying nine tonight). You fold to the 27 smallstack, keeping him on life-support, as you don't want your table to break. The players on the other table have equal stacks, and are just passing the blinds to each other. You want to keep hammering the players who have reasonable chips on your table.

This situation is one I have heard too, but I still disagree with it. If you do this and fold AA this time, but in the course of bullying they wake up with a monster and double up a couple of times against you what is the point? Also, if they are all short, someone is going to bust soon.

kincsem

Well if we both had 150k, the other players had 10k, and I had 5k in the centre I would abandon the 5k. Winning the 150k would only give me chips, but that is not the same as eliminating a few dozen players.

You get paid for finishing position.

WSOP Main Event 1993
Jim Bechtel .... 1,150,000
John Bonetti ..... 935,000
Glenn Cozen ..... 95,000

One hand later Bonetti was out. Cozen was given a gift of second place. It happens at all levels.

Thats a little worse than my example from the Merrion .... the two chip-leaders all-in when on the bubble.

5starpool

That is a very specific situation again, and not one that compares to the hand that you mentioned earlier from the Gutshot £500.

Hitman Actual

kincsem wrote:

WSOP Main Event 1993
Jim Bechtel .... 1,150,000
John Bonetti ..... 935,000
Glenn Cozen ..... 95,000

One hand later Bonetti was out. Cozen was given a gift of second place. It happens at all levels.

What were the hands, and how did it play out? Bonetti may have been totally correct to take the CL on.

And KK v AK is more often 70:30, depending on suits. But even 65:35 is a massive edge in holdem. These are not marginal situations, and have no real place in this thread (which has taken on a totally new life, and I don't like where it's going).

gosplan

ntlbell wrote:

I'll probably get banned for this.

seriously.

**** OFF

Ah, hopefully you won't.

I don't really mind bad language but at the same time good manners aren't that hard to implement. You could give it a go.

Back to the point though. Is it possible to seperate tournament life from going broke?

I mean generally I'd fold because I think I'll lose my chips. This will eventually lead to me going out but the first concern is that I'm behind.

It takes a very extreme example to add in the factor of 'tournament life' such as the 50/50 shot with tens.

I do think that the idea that many people have of taking a lot of medium size raised pots to build a stack is based on that though. Essentially you're building a stack without risking your TL. Also, a lot of people play drawing hands less despite the odds being the same. This is because you can't chase something down, miss and reload.

For example, say you're at the final table of the Helsinki open suckin my balls.........:)

kincsem

Cozen folded 55 pre-flop. Bonetti had AK. Bechtel had 66.

Bonetti raised to 35,000 pre-flop. Cozen folded. Should Cozen have gone all-in with 55? Bechtel was to act after him (holding 66).

Flop 4K6.

Sometimes its better to avoid close races.

kincsem

AK hearts v KsKd is 33.69% v 65.48% for an outright win. I suppose a flush or straight on the board would tie.

Hitman Actual

kincsem wrote:

Cozen folded 55 pre-flop. Bonetti had AK. Bechtel had 66.

Bonetti raised to 35,000 pre-flop. Cozen folded. Should Cozen have gone all-in with 55? Bechtel was to act after him (holding 66).

Flop 4K6.

Sometimes its better to avoid close races.

Cozen got lucky that the two leaders flopped two big hands, three-handed. [Not sure how Bonetti managed to go broke with those stacks, but that's beside the point]. Should Cozen have called with 55? Probably, but I'd imagine he feared running into a bigger pair. If he allowed himself to get so low, then I'd say he was playing scared anyway.

ntlbell

gosplan wrote:

For example, say you're at the final table of the Helsinki open suckin my balls.........:)

Hahahaha!

Even if people changed it from the WSOP to the Helsinki open I wouldn't mind it so much.

kincsem

5starpool wrote:

That is a very specific situation again, and not one that compares to the hand that you mentioned earlier from the Gutshot £500.

In situations where you have the edge of course you will continue with the hand. But if you have a massive stack and you are offered a 50/50 or 60/40 race by someone else with a massive stack then I think it is right to avoid the clash.

I wouldn't fold the Gutshot situation, although I think AK all-in players are trusting to luck.
An AK crippled me in the Green Joker €1000 v my 99. I couldn't refuse that as I raised 6k and was re-raised to 12k.

I think you can't take too many favourable gambles for all or most of your chips. A 60/40 three times is .6 x .6 x .6 = .22. It's ok if your stack is bigger than the people you are taking on, but if the stacks are evenly matched each time you are going out.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

LuckyLloyd wrote:

No disrespect Sean - but Lenny has made the point: KK vs AK preflop is not a race. You are miles ahead and will hold up most times.

There is no tournament situation - irrespective of skill edge, stack sizes, structure, payout position - blah blah; where I will not put my tank over the line with KK in the knowledge that my opponent will call me with AK. I put it in every single time.

This is not something that this forum should debate - it is not a matter of styles etc. Mathamatically, it cannot be correct to ever pass up that type of edge.

There is always a time and a place for everything, but in a situation like this the examples where it makes sense to fold are few and far between and don't merit discussion in a general sense.

kincsem

LuckyLloyd wrote:

No disrespect Sean - but Lenny has made the point: KK vs AK preflop is not a race. You are miles ahead and will hold up most times.

Mathamatically, it cannot be correct to ever pass up that type of edge.

We are not playing maths (with the greatest respect ).

If I had €1 billion and offered a punter a 90/10 chance of the €1 billion or the firing squad if he lost its good value but .....

ntlbell

kincsem wrote:

We are not playing maths (with the greatest respect ).

If I had €1 billion and offered a punter a 90/10 chance of the €1 billion or the firing squad if he lost its good value but .....

Take it in a flash!

carrigeen

ntlbell wrote:

Take it in a flash!

lol:D

Ste05

In all seriousness, I actually would take that 90/10 €1 Billion/Death offer. Anyone want to stump up the cash, how about a whip around???? I wonder does Bill Gates read boards...

Scouser in Dub

There was a question posed to Sklansky on 2p2 about what he would take as an offer if on Deal or No Deal there is 1p in one of the boxes and 1 Billion in the other

what would he take assuming that the options were exactly 50/50

no answer as yet

kincsem

ntlbell wrote:

Take it in a flash!

You were supposed to refuse it to prove my point.

Of course you could go to that agency that provides doubles / spitting images and hire a stand-in.

Hitman Actual

kincsem wrote:

We are not playing maths.

Since when?

ntlbell

Ste05 wrote:

In all seriousness, I actually would take that 90/10 €1 Billion/Death offer. Anyone want to stump up the cash, how about a whip around???? I wonder does Bill Gates read boards...

You think I was joking? I'm very serious. I would beat you to the top of the line for this.

I would have a go at this for 1 million never mind a billion.

Goodluck2me

ntlbell wrote:

You think I was joking? I'm very serious. I would beat you to the top of the line for this.

I would have a go at this for 1 million never mind a billion.

think that would be +ev for boards...

Daithio

What I think is an interesting question is, assuming you are in one of these slow structured tournaments where you are a huge cut above the rest of the opposition, exactly when should you stop passing up these small edges? Assuming you should pass up small edges in certain specific circumstances, which I definitely think is the case. What are the requirements for doing so? For me I think you need to have at least twice average stack anyway. What individual situations you should pass up I suppose depends on how good a player you are, but I'd definitely pass up say a 60-40 in the situation I mentioned earlier. If I had 80k when the average was 15k. Not sure how much further I'd go than that, possibly even a 65-35, which isn't a mile off Sean's KK v AK example. But I'm never passing KK unless I know my oppo has AA.

DeVore

I have to agree with Daithio in his earlier example. Why do I want to take a coinflip with the only guy who can hurt me on the table. Better that we both take on the other stacks and feed on them!

DeV.
(ps: I've considered dropping KK twice in my poker life. Once I did and once I didnt, both times he had AA...which was the only thing I was thinking about!)