Roman Catholic and Atheist getting married

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JC 2K3 wrote:

Just pretend you're a Christian, the wedding in the church is a fallacy* unless you are a Christian, so you're really just doing it in the church to keep your fiancée happy.

Thanks for the advice - it all bolis down to this it seems. Pretend I'm a Christian or really dig my heels in. I guess I'll just have to pretend I'm a Christian.

It seems rather ironic - I'm not a Christian but I seem to be the preson doing the "christian" thing here.

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lostexpectation wrote:

how much of your wife's wish to get have a wedding in church is about the palava of the day and how much is about religion and how much is about doing it infront of a large group of friends and family?

TBH, I think it's a bit of all three. If it wasn't important for her from a religious point of view then there is no way I would even consider a church cermony.

lostexpectation wrote:

Shred you baptism certificate and give it to the intransignet priest.

What would that achieve? I don't have a problem with the priest. I have a problem with the Catholic Church.

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Scofflaw wrote:

That is to say, your wife's pastor, who I presume is also the ordinary of the parish, has actually given you a dispensation to marry, without which you could not get married in his church....you have been quite lucky, in fact.

I do realise that and I appreciate the effort the priest has gone to help us. I think there was just some misunderstanding. I didn't realise I'd still be getting married as a Christian.

Scofflaw wrote:

Do not consider for a moment taking lostexpectation's advice - you will lose all expectation of marriage in church...

I haven't a notion of taking lostexpectation's advice.

Scofflaw wrote:

I think that as atheists we often miss the rather important point that people really believe their beliefs....they don't hold them just to annoy atheists.

I know people really believe their beliefs. I'm not annoyed by my partners beliefs - I'm annoyed by the Catholic Church stance on marrige.

lostexpectation

Scofflaw wrote:

There is a general prohibition on marrying the unbaptised:

He is not unbaptised

Marriage - Christian marriage, that is, is a sacrament rather more than a contract. As an apostate, you can be party to the contract, but not strictly speaking the sacrament - in fact, apostasy 'constitutes an impediment to marriage, and the apostasy of husband or wife is a sufficient reason for separation'.

So you saying he can't get married in church.

That is to say, your wife's pastor, who I presume is also the ordinary of the parish, has actually given you a dispensation to marry, without which you could not get married in his church....you have been quite lucky, in fact.

Do not consider for a moment taking lostexpectation's advice - you will lose all expectation of marriage in church...

he doesn't expect the grace of god cos he doesn't believe in it.

That is the fundamental reason for the rule - although it also has the sociological effect robindch describes, I think it is cynical to regard this as the reasoning behind it. The priest must have considered that it was more likely that you would return to the fold than that your fiancee would leave it - although of course, he could simply be a bad priest.

Thats a quite condescending priest you're describing there.

I think that as atheists we often miss the rather important point that people really believe their beliefs....they don't hold them just to annoy atheists.

yeah the athiest really don't believe. yet somehow one guesses the guy is going to get married and keep stum.

Basically the priest sees you as sort of lost cause and is now only thinking of your future children which you have indicated you will raise catholic, not that they have much choice, thus his job is done, without doing a thing for the atheist partner.

Ask him a question about your possible children next time you see him, see his brain wirr and as he remembers the Bishop's advice.

The priest hasn't done a thing for you, that could me being OTT or could be exactly the case, it seems to me he'll end up -1 + 2 or 3. He's enquired for you, talked to you about and all those niceties but you're still back at the getting married at church cos its the done thing that we see all over Ireland.

ah who likes the smell of indoctrination in the morning.

People do it all the time. Tell the priest no, get him to change. Get married done.

Asiaprod

Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:

I guess I'll just have to pretend I'm a Christian.

No, I think you got that backward. The priest is pretending your are a Christian and he needs a baptism cert to back him up, but you have told him you are not. It appears his boss told him this is how it has to be. Thats how it will go down.

As you can see from my info, I live in Tokyo. Every Japanese Bride wants to have a white church wedding. So we have hundreds of wedding halls giving wedding services complete with alter, alter boys and a priest, nice reading from the holy book too...and a blessing. And guess what? After the wedding the alter boy goes back home to his Shinto family, and the priest who just joined those two souls in holy wedlock gets back into T-shirt and jeans and moves on to his next job as a bartender or DJ or something. Its a job to them.

This is not in anyway an attack on the principle of Christian marriage. It is a reality check. If you are not a Christian it has no meaning for you, but it appears to have for you intended. Frankly, if you are doing this for the happiness of your future wife and co. it really should not matter. You know what you are, and only you can change that.
Sorry if I stepped on anyone's toes, it is unintentional.

BrianCalgary

Sounds like the priest is doing everything in his power to get the two of you joined and some guy up the chain isn't very impressed.
Top down style of church government, not my favourite style.

My advice, meet the priest on his terms, the give and take of a bargain. Look at him as being an ally and the two of you have conspired against Rome to make this happen.

Glad you went on the weekend encounter.

Dades

Sorry for joining late in the discussion, just thought I'd drop in my 2 cents.

Personally I don't understand the indignation expressed that the catholic church will not marry a catholic to an atheist. It makes perfect sense for them to refuse it. Your religion is a fairly important thing to a church! If anything they are being accommodating letting you lie about your beliefs and go through with it.

I smiled through the ceremony last year for the sake of the other half and family. Catholic weddings in Ireland these days have little to do with catholicism, and everything to do with family, friends, smart suits, pretty dresses, memorable photographs and happy faces.

Found an older thread on the non-believers forum in you're interested...
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054938021

brianthebard

Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:

This is the main reason I posted this topic in the Christianity forum and so far I haven't had a reply from a Christian. It is their church and it is their rules and I'm trying to understand their rules.
Why does the Catholic Church insist that I am a Christian on my wedding day when I have formally renounced my faith?

When you say you've formally renounced your faith, what does that mean? Have you had correspondence with the Vatican to this effect, afaik that's the only way the church will accept that you have left your faith.

Blackjack

I'm not sure I understand your issue with this OP. You want to partake in a Catholic Ceremony in a Catholic church, but have an issue with how the Catholic Church views this (or their conditions for carrying out the ceremony).

I think the issue is more between you and your Fiancée. She wants the Catholic thing, while you're not keen. Perhaps it's her you should be discussing your feelings with, and asking that she not put you through this if it really bothers you that much.

vesp

Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote:

I'm not annoyed by my partners beliefs - I'm annoyed by the Catholic Church stance on marrige.

You can probably start to get a grasp on the hurt that was caused to other non Roman-Catholics in the past, when they married Roman Catholics and both had to sign things in the R.C. church etc etc. At least things have moved on / progressed a bit.

username812

Catholics can marry outside of their religion, and do so quite frequently. For the church to sanction the marriage three criteria must be met:
Both parties must promise that their children shall be brought up as Catholics;
The Catholic must promise to endeavour to bring the non-Catholic to the knowledge of the truth;
The non-Catholic must promise to allow the Catholic liberty for the free exercise of his or her religion.

There you have it. Odd that your priest wouldn't have covered this or that so many others on the board would not be aware.

Good luck! I date an atheist and often wonder if we can have a future together. It isn't an easy road. I think we are both hopeful though. What I find wonderful though is that he is fine to let me be the Catholic that I am, and he isn't angry about religion and faith (which you sometimes see).

philologos

Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote: »

My opinion is the Catholic Church is not respecting me as an Atheist. Is my analysis of this correct or am I being too harsh?

The latter you're being too harsh.

The function of marriage, is for two people who have a great love for eachother to come together under God.

Now, do you not see where the problem lies if you do not believe in that?

Also the Church (I'm personally Church of Ireland), would also expect for you to raise your children as Christians. How can they be sure that you will do that as an atheist? Highly improbable you will agree?

The point is, if you get married in a Church, it should be done under their rules. I may also point out that marriage between Christians and non-Christians is permitted, but not advised really (1 Corinthians 7).

Fanny Cradock

Just to point out that this thread dates back to Nov 06.

Invincible

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Just to point out that this thread dates back to Nov 06.

It's still of interest to people,by the looks of things.

dh0661

Invincible wrote: »

It's still of interest to people,by the looks of things.

Of course it is. I just wish I had options when I got married all those years ago - he (and mine) being r/c and me being none, I never dreamt of the big white wedding, but I did enjoy the reception. And after all the year's still goes off to do his Cristian duties & brings the 2 kids (he does not know that I use contraceptives - that would be against all his beliefs) with him . But ! - best of all we're still together and very happy, and still in love.

PDN

dh0661 wrote: »

Of course it is. I just wish I had options when I got married all those years ago - he (and mine) being r/c and me being none, I never dreamt of the big white wedding, but I did enjoy the reception. And after all the year's still goes off to do his Cristian duties & brings the 2 kids (he does not know that I use contraceptives - that would be against all his beliefs) with him . But ! - best of all we're still together and very happy, and still in love.

I'm glad you're happy and in love - but I think it's a shame that the contraceptives thing has to bring deception into the picture. If you both love each other as much as you say then don't you think your love would overcome the contraception issue and still allow you to be honest with each other?

dh0661

PDN wrote: »

I'm glad you're happy and in love - but I think it's a shame that the contraceptives thing has to bring deception into the picture. If you both love each other as much as you say then don't you think your love would overcome the contraception issue and still allow you to be honest with each other?

I am honest -- honestly -- if my beloved had his way, we'd have a football team or two. And to be totally honest, he would not be capable of coping with more. He (workaholic) works too hard to keep his relationship with the 2, as they are.

stingray75

mr. divil a bit.

whilst not actually engaged yey, i have found myself and my GF of 8 yrs in exactly the same situation as yourself. negotiations have already begun...

civil wedding in a suitable venue, married by registrar, reception elsewhere. priest present at wedding, gives a 'blessing' afterwards which keeps herself, both sets of parents and the majority of the ligger rabble happy.

i think it might just work...

Dave!

It's just crazy enough to work!

Zulu

Cassius Full Stepdaughter wrote: »

I'm not happy to stand up in front of my family and friends on one of the most important days of my life and play a charade and lie.

Then what the hell are you doing going to the church?