Lower Back & Deadlift

davyjose

Guys I'm just back from the gym - feeling a little frustrated. I deadlifted 120kg, and had plenty left in the legs, grip (using straps), etc. But after a couple of sets, my back started to stiffen a bit too acutely, if you know what I mean. I checked my form and i seem to be jerking ever so slightly from my lower back.
Basically I find leg exercises easy (that is, I have a lot of natural power in them compared to other body parts), but my upper body - not so much back, but particularly my core - is s**te. And i think it's my core letting me down. What sort of lower back exercises, or other core exercises can I use to build up strength, rather than endurance, without provoking injury?

Vegeta

well i'd suggest lowering the weight and concentrating on form for the next few weeks as a start anyway

iregk

I don't dead lift myself but from what I know deadlifting is a lower back exercise so if thats stiffening up then I'd suggest that your lifting too heavy. There are huge guys I know in my gym that dead lift and I'm looking at 80kgs on the bar from a few of those so I'm assuming 120kg is way too heavy for you to safely do it. You may have a lot more in the legs but the legs only get it up the first part, its the lower back that takes the brunt of it.

Maybe dragan can give you more advice on it but thats what I know.

Dragan

For me, the best way to improve any lift to just to do it, but to do it intelligently. With any major , compound lift, where form is EVERYTHING, then start light and work up.

When I started doing deads I started with the bar. You want to get your form spot on. For many months I then deadlifted without straps, as this tempered the weight that I could use. When I finally moved on from straps ( I was doing 140 for reps without straps and my grip would give out before my lower back ) I nailed 160 the first day I used them. I could easily have gone higher, but the simple fact is my lower back was not conditioned for it, and would have known all about it.

I suggest you ease off on the weight, do very strict, higher rep deads ( 12 reps of so ) and increase the weights SLOWLY. You would also do worse than to do Hyperextensions. It can be hard enough to decide if you have a "weak" core, but if you feel your core needs work over your abs, then work in standing presses and such as well. You should also look at powercleans and snatches for some hip drive.

daveirl

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Vegeta

yup its the grip that gives out on me too

was deadlifting last night

warmed up with 50kg practicing form for about 15-18 reps, then did 8 x 80kg, 8 x 90kg, 3 of 100kg (the bar was just pulling itself out of my hands at this stage) tried 1RM of 120kg (going nowhere, previous best 110kg) then did 8 x 80kg.

my back was sore after it, but it was the "I just worked the sh1t outa my back" rather than "I just lifted heavy weight incorrectly" feeling.

daveirl

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BrianD3

When I started deadlifting it took me probably a year of regular deadlifting to get into a comfortable groove. IIRC I started off lifting 18 kg with a reg bar and after a few months I had progressed to only about 50 kg. It took me a long time to get past 100 kg. I do both sumo and conventional style and can lift about the same (205 kg) in both and am still making progress. I'd advise beginner deadlifters to take things very slowly anyway. There is no rush when it comes to making progress in the deadlift be sensible and this exercise will serve you well and be something you enjoy doing till the day you drop. Deadlifts are for life not just for Christmas!

Vegeta

Ouch!!!

My biggest fear is squating

I am seriously afraid i will one day squat down with a weight and just not be able to push out and get back to the neutral position.

Jak

As someone who seriously injured themselves about 8 years ago deadlifting I would advise serious caution on this excersise. Yes it is useful, but unlike benching and squatting, it is easily circumvented for training purposes, and has far higher risks.

The big issues with deadlifting in my view are as follows:

1. Most people have poor core strength.
2. It allows you to shift far bigger weight than almost any excersise early on and hence has a 'show-off' appeal for people looking for a little credit on their lifts.
3. When you get tired during lifts the shift in form effort and load can cause serious injury

If you do want to deadlift - and even if you don't -

Work on your core strength and flexibility as a priority.

Use chalk - don't bother with straps.

Build up slowly with your lifts - ensure all bodyparts are up to scratch for the lifts.

Don't slowly lower the bar to the floor - this is not part of the lift - learn to drop it safely on the mat.

JAK

t-ha

Goals goals, if you want to have a strong deadlift and be able to hold the bar yourself for pride's sake, then avoid straps. If you want a stronger posterior-chain and your grip is holding you back, knock yourself out with straps. If you're body-building and don't care about grip, use straps. If you don't want to be a big girl's blouse all your deadlifting career, don't use straps. All about goals...

Vegeta, you should squat in a rack so you can dump the bar if you fail. It's not ideal & the gym owners mighten't like you for it, but it's one of the purposes of the rack at the end of the day.

Vegeta

just asking as I am new to deadlifting what grip you guys favour, mixed or overhand

trollybus

davyjose wrote:

Guys I'm just back from the gym - feeling a little frustrated. I deadlifted 120kg, and had plenty left in the legs, grip (using straps), etc. But after a couple of sets, my back started to stiffen a bit too acutely, if you know what I mean. I checked my form and i seem to be jerking ever so slightly from my lower back.
Basically I find leg exercises easy (that is, I have a lot of natural power in them compared to other body parts), but my upper body - not so much back, but particularly my core - is s**te. And i think it's my core letting me down. What sort of lower back exercises, or other core exercises can I use to build up strength, rather than endurance, without provoking injury?

I did the same thing a few months ago. I was warming up with about 50% of my 1 rep max and something poped in my lower back. The physio I went to said I don't have any weakness in any of the primary or secondary muscles involved. He suggested doing deads last on my back day. His advice in the past has always been spot on for me. If you need his number drop me a PM.

BrianD3

Vegeta wrote:

just asking as I am new to deadlifting what grip you guys favour, mixed or overhand

I think the double overhand grip is best for those new to deadlifting as it is more intuitive and from what I've read places slight less strain (torque) on the back and on the bicep. I personally always use a double o/h grip without straps, have never been comfortable using a mixed grip. I find that a slightly looser grip where the bar feels like it is somewhat "resting" in my hands is better than trying to "crush" the bar with tight fists. I also reckon that this grip reduces the ROM a touch and allows a slightly more upright starting position. Anyone else find this?

daveirl

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davyjose

Cheers guys, yeah I'll drop off some of the weight and practice technique without straps. My back isn't sore this morning, and to be honest wasn't really too bad last night, but I think if i'd pushed ahead to 140 i'd have been in trouble.

walt0r

I hurt my back deadlift about 3 months ago and started deadlifting there lately again as I felt my had recovered. So I started with 60 then 100kg and I felt good. So I decided to go for 140kg x 7 (not too heavy fo me) and then another set of 7. My back went into spasm and I felt like I couldn't breath after it. Makes me sore even thinking about it. I should have stayed on lower weight for a few more weeks. It's perfect now and I feel no pain when squatting really. It's just a balls I hurt it again though. I'm going to keep the weights really low and work back up very slowly.

D-Generate

Haven't hurt my back. It could be that my form is just good or all you guys are just getting too old

davyjose

D-Generate wrote:

Haven't hurt my back. It could be that my form is just good or all you guys are just getting too old

Yeah but 40kg doesn't count

daveirl

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rubadub

So what are the safest and most dangerous exercises. I have all but given up on deadlifts and squats. I just never felt comfortable doing them, I do some high rep squats now and then. What is the safest exercise for the lower back?

I cycle for about 45min everyday and from what some said here it is "training" so if I was doing leg work it could well be overtraining. I have read on another site how cycling short distances in high gear is equivalent to weight training, which makes sense.

I know some will bang on about how I need to do leg work, but at the moment my legs, thighs especially look more developed than my upper body, and I do not think I will ever get to the stage where my upper body is that big anyway (not pessimistic, I just do not want to get that big)

tribulus

Deadlifts are safe and an excellent exercise, you just have to always keep your form in check. Failing that, chins/pullups are good too.

rubadub

tribulus wrote:

Deadlifts are safe and an excellent exercise, you just have to always keep your form in check. Failing that, chins/pullups are good too.

Chins/pullups for the lower back? I do lots of them sometimes weighted, I do not feel they work the lower back though. I also do knee raises on my chinning bar, would they work the lower back much. I could try doing the leg/knee raise weighted, I can do plenty of them, but doing the weighted seems awkward.

Another reason for omitting deadlifts is simple laze! Too much hassle loading and unloading plates!

I don't feel much risk/worry doing bent over rows so I may stick with them.

Vegeta

for lower back the one that looks like a reverse sit up. I cant for the life of me think of its name

Think of lying on your bed, belly down, with your top half hanging over the bed. Then raising you upper half till your back is straight.

Generally your legs would be secured and to add difficulty you cand hold a plate across your chest

what is this called??? Driving me nuts

justsomebloke

Vegeta wrote:

for lower back the one that looks like a reverse sit up. I cant for the life of me think of its name

Think of lying on your bed, belly down, with your top half hanging over the bed. Then raising you upper half till your back is straight.

Generally your legs would be secured and to add difficulty you cand hold a plate across your chest

what is this called??? Driving me nuts

hyperextensions

Dragan

For lower back my target lifts would be….hyperextensions first, then deadlifts, then heavy barbell rows.

I find hypers hit the spinal erectors far more than deadlifts do. When I finish three sets of hypers my spinal erectors feel like rocks! Deads are a great full body movement, if you don't think so then just watch a clip of a very lean person doing them and you will see pretty much every muscle in the body is under a degree of tension at some point during the movement.

Doing bent over barbell rows with a good weight for your strenght calls in the lower back a lot as well, in order to stay in the correct position. My top weight range for these is about 120 kilos and believe me, when your working in whatever your top weight range will be you should feel them in your lower back.

I remember an interview with Craig Titus, where he said he had a 405 rule, where all his lifts would have a top range of 405 lbs for things like deads, rows etc. He said while he could go a lot heavier his lower back could not really take it. My question would be why his did not work on his lower back more?

t-ha

Dragan wrote:

My question would be why his did not work on his lower back more?

And murder people a little less?

Dragan

t-ha wrote:

And murder people a little less?

Man, thats harsh!!! But i got to say i laughed.

BrianD3

rubadub wrote:

So what are the safest and most dangerous exercises. I have all but given up on deadlifts and squats. I just never felt comfortable doing them, I do some high rep squats now and then. What is the safest exercise for the lower back?

I cycle for about 45min everyday and from what some said here it is "training" so if I was doing leg work it could well be overtraining. I have read on another site how cycling short distances in high gear is equivalent to weight training, which makes sense.

I know some will bang on about how I need to do leg work, but at the moment my legs, thighs especially look more developed than my upper body, and I do not think I will ever get to the stage where my upper body is that big anyway (not pessimistic, I just do not want to get that big)

You ever try sumo deadlifts? These are easier on the lower back than conventional deadlifts but are much harder on the groin/adductors. I'd prefer to injure my groin than my lower back but if you build up slowly your groin shouldn't give you a problem

t-ha

Seeing as your asking about safety, I'm not convinced the hyperextension is a great exercise as it attempts to curve your spine the wrong way. Very few people require extra mobility in the backwards arching of the spine so why practice it? Back extensions are far enough.

Beelzebub

Hyperextensions: they are relatively safe if you don't hyperextend, just raise your upper body 'til it's parallel to the floor.
After injury due to incorrect form in the deadlift, I used these for rehab.
It's a staple assistance exercise of olympic weightlifters, and they have the best lower backs of any of the strength athletes.

Jak

Dragan wrote:

I remember an interview with Craig Titus, where he said he had a 405 rule, where all his lifts would have a top range of 405 lbs for things like deads, rows etc. He said while he could go a lot heavier his lower back could not really take it. My question would be why his did not work on his lower back more?

I have a similar rule for deadlifting and squatting - nothing over 150kg - since my injury - and nothing over 200kg for bench. I just don't see the point these days with regard to practical strength for what I want and also in terms of ensuring I am always injury free and able to train. I find there is plenty of excersises and set/rep structures below these thresholds to keep me happy/developing.

Anyway that is a little off topic - what I'd point out though that it is not just a factor of muscle strength - the pressure and load going through certain areas for me, if heavy enough, will cause things to seize up on me. If i take over 150kg off the rack for a squat, or stand up with that in the deadlift, I will feel it straight away in my lower back. Nothing to do with reps - simply the pressure. Similarly if I put over 220kg on a bar for shrugs the initial load - whilst static - going through to my feet will cause the injury to twinge. These are simply injury induced pressure thresholds in my view. Now they have improved lately as I have been working back into them but I don't think I will ever bother to push much above these levels. My point is that muscle development can't protect you from everything and there are certain weights that really put huge pressure on joints and so on as well as your muscles. If you are still 100% injury free you may not ever have to worry about - or even notice - them.

At 19/20 when only really getting started I was deadlifting up around 180kg - it was by far and away my favourite excersise, big weights, full body, quick to progress - however, it is by far and away the most dangerous and prone to injuries in my experience for amateur lifters. Whilst you're right Tribulus that everything is safe if done perfectly - one is unsupported in the deadlift, using far heavier weights generally, and when fatigue kicks in and form maybe slips, that combination is very dangerous.

It doesn't particularly bother me these days as I train lower body in a very different fashion to my upper body. But again, I'd urge some caution for people taking on the deadlift in their training for the reasons outlined in my earlier post. Lower back injuries are a real bitch ...

JAK

daveirl

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BrianD3

As regards "safe" and "dangerous" exercise - it seem to me that i hear of very few deadlift related injuries. Then again a lot of recreational gym goers don't deadlift at all. And those who do deadlift are probably fairly well informed about the dangers so take extra care as a result.

In contrast virtually everyone who trains with weights does the bench press, bad form and rotator cuff injuries are very common. The standing military press is also often done with appalling form which can easily result in a nasty back injury.

I reckon the weighted chin/pull up is one of the safest compound movements that someone can do.

tribulus

Jak wrote:

Whilst you're right Tribulus that everything is safe if done perfectly - one is unsupported in the deadlift, using far heavier weights generally, and when fatigue kicks in and form maybe slips, that combination is very dangerous.

Would this make an argument for heavy singles as opposed to reps?

As in clusters i suppose of 3-5 counting as a set rather then 3-5 continuous reps, or is neither more beneficial than the other in terms of preventing injury?

rubadub: sorry misread your question, i thought you asked about other general back exercises, my bad

rubadub

tribulus wrote:

rubadub: sorry misread your question, i thought you asked about other general back exercises, my bad

No problem, I am looking for some good easy back exercises. Thing is I am not too fond of squats and deadlifts, I reckon my legs get enough exercise cycling but I feel my back needs a bit more strength. I find some comments interesting, people saying deadlifts are safe, yet many having injuries because of them!, I have yet to see anybody saying they had injuries doing chinups or bicep curls. So I suppose a better way to phrase it is what do you think the most relatively safe and dangerous exercises are.

BrainD3 mentioned bench pressing. That is one that I also do not feel so at ease doing, I now prefer weighted pushups.
He also mentioned military presses, I now do one arm style military presses which I feel are safer. I did used to feel the strain on my back, I suppose using lower weight by going one arm at a time puts less stress on the back. I can also lift a good bit more on each arm, I can do 9 reps at 21.5kg, but could only do about 9 reps at 35kg with a 2 arm military press, I think the back could be the limiting factor for me, more than the shoulder. I do one arm shrugs, I also feel it is safer and I can put the wrist strap I use on far easier by using the free hand, I do them with a tricep bar so I can hold it in place with my free hand.

BrianD3

Another back exercise which I think is relatively safe is the Dorian Yates row. This is like a bent over row except the torso is kept more upright (safer) and crucially an underhand grip is used. The orientation of the elbows with this grip results in heavy usage of the lats and generally more weight can be moved than in the bent over orw. The downside is that it is more like an isolation movement than a compound one

brianthebard

When you say a more upright stance, how much more upright do you mean?

mloc

BrianD3 wrote:

Another back exercise which I think is relatively safe is the Dorian Yates row. This is like a bent over row except the torso is kept more upright (safer) and crucially an underhand grip is used. The orientation of the elbows with this grip results in heavy usage of the lats and generally more weight can be moved than in the bent over orw. The downside is that it is more like an isolation movement than a compound one

Didn't know it was called that. Started performing that motion after a friend recommended it to me, instead of a standard bent over row. It seems to be working better for me now.

As for deadlifts, I've started doing them again after a knee injury last year. Whereas I was doing about 120kg before hand, I've rather rapidly progressed back up to about 80kg now, and though it seems relatively easy, im taking my time in increasing the weight to avoid overstressing the lower back muscles. I wear a soft velcro belt as my family have a predisposition towards hernias, and while my form is very good, I find wearing this soft belt makes me more aware of my posture and serves as more as a reminder than a protection device.

In terms of safety I would say they are probably a more dangerous excercise for the amateur, along with perhaps squats. I've been lifting properly for about 2 years now, so I'm reasonably happy with my form in most exercises.

Overall, I'd have to say the most dangerous exercise of all are good mornings. I don't think I've EVER seen anyone in my gym do them.

t-ha

I think the problems outlined by JAK in his post are very real, but yet are problems with the trainees more so than the deadlift. I've rarely seen people deadlift properly, so given that it is becoming an in-vogue lift again I can only assume that deadlift related injuries will soon be on the up. I also think people deadlift too frequently and too heavy. There are people working up to 1RMs on the deadlift every week as part of their regular routine.

It doesn't bother me too much, I just do them right and there's no issue. I do wish gym instructors would be a bit more pro-active about telling people to stop if they look like they're going to do themselves in though.

daveirl

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D-Generate

daveirl wrote:

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It was me.... ruined my workout and all.