would you fold here?

Gholimoli

7 players remaining in semi big tourney
First prise is 6K
Second prise is nearly 3K.
You are only interested in either one of them and infact to make things easier you can pretend there is no other prise.
Of the players remaining you are the best player. Of the remaining players only one of them is a decent player but he has very few chips left we call him player A.
There is another two short stacks and two others that have roughly the same stack as you but you are marginal chip lead at the moment.
Chips counts:
You 40K
Player A: 17K
Player B: 15K
Player C: 30K
Player 12K
Player E: 30K
Player F: 24K
Blinds are 800/1500

Its folded to you and you have xx.
You make it 4K to play.
Player C makes it 10K from SB.
You know player C to be very tight so his range JJ+, AK .
You are thinking to your self oh **** but few seconds later player D announces “all in “ for 12K.
Would you fold any hand here?

slegs

u could push and try to squeeze out the tight middle player..range of small stack is probably much wider...risky though

Gholimoli

slegs wrote:

u could push and try to squeeze out the tight middle player..range of small stack is probably much wider...risky though

pushing here is horrible i think as im sure player C will call me and im sure he has a huge hand.
as i said i put player C on JJ+,AK and even though there is a slight chance he may drop the AK or JJ but i really dont wanna ba taking that chance.
also the whole point is that i cant push (not that i want to ) becuase the under-raise rule is now in effect and thats the whole point.
if i call player C has to call and cant push.

slegs

realised underraise rule after I posted..

I call with any connectors or pair..fold anything else

DapperGent

I call with any two here I think. He's going to open push a lot of flops which means you're playing for the 4-1 now and his stack. I just hope it's not one of those situations where you decided to steal the blinds with J2 off but rather 78s or something.

bops

8k to win pot of 36k and you have enough left behind - yep it's a call for me - you'd really want to hit the flop big tho before putting anymore in.
im guessing you hit 2 pair and busted AK and AA with muck and got a bollicking!! lol wp

Washout

call for me too.

even if you hsave to fold the flop your still chip average.

ligger

Defo call for me with those odds, any two will do.

Gholimoli wrote:

Of the players remaining you are the best player.

Ahem modesty..:)

Gholimoli

i called with 85o .
flop 855 .
SB pushes and i call.
SB has KK and gets a K on the river.

Killme00

I would also call with any two cards here..hope for a good flop

Killme00

Gholimoli wrote:

i called with 85o .
flop 855 .
SB pushes and i call.
SB has KK and gets a K on the river.

This is just bad luck..you definitely made the right play

marius

Gholimoli wrote:

7 players remaining in semi big tourney
First prise is 6K
Second prise is nearly 3K.
You are only interested in either one of them and infact to make things easier you can pretend there is no other prise.
Of the players remaining you are the best player. Of the remaining players only one of them is a decent player but he has very few chips left we call him player A.
There is another two short stacks and two others that have roughly the same stack as you but you are marginal chip lead at the moment.
Chips counts:
You 40K
Player A: 17K
Player B: 15K
Player C: 30K
Player 12K
Player E: 30K
Player F: 24K
Blinds are 800/1500

Its folded to you and you have xx.
You make it 4K to play.
Player C makes it 10K from SB.
You know player C to be very tight so his range JJ+, AK .
You are thinking to your self oh **** but few seconds later player D announces “all in “ for 12K.
Would you fold any hand here?

I think I might be able to find a fold here - it depends how confident I am about outplaying the rest of the table....you only have 4K invested. Obviously you are getting great odds for the call - but if you pass it is more than likely another player is going out.

You also know that you are probably only going to get to see the flop as Player C is more than likely going to push any flop, so you are counting on hitting three cards - not five.....

Gholimoli

marius wrote:

I think I might be able to find a fold here - it depends how confident I am about outplaying the rest of the table....you only have 4K invested. Obviously you are getting great odds for the call - but if you pass it is more than likely another player is going out.

You also know that you are probably only going to get to see the flop as Player C is more than likely going to push any flop, so you are counting on hitting three cards - not five.....

You can’t possibly be advocating a fold here.
I have to call 8K for a 28K pot.
That’s like 3.5:1 .
Im also in a position to take another 30K from SB.
Basically im calling 8K to get 58K
That’s like 7.5:1 .
How can you possibly be advising this as a pass?
Your way of thinking is incorrect.
It doesn’t matter how much I have invested.
Another player going out does not help with and if anything with me calling there is more of a chance of another player going out.
3 cards here is more than enough here for the odds im getting.
This is a prime position to be in and an extremely good wager IMO and one that doesn’t really happen to often .
You should be taking advantage of situation like this not pass them up.

marius

Gholimoli wrote:

You can’t possibly be advocating a fold here.
I have to call 8K for a 28K pot.
That’s like 3.5:1 .

I know the odds are good - I was merely giving an agruement for possibly passing this up - just another way of looking at it.

Gholimoli wrote:

Im also in a position to take another 30K from SB.
Basically im calling 8K to get 58K
That’s like 7.5:1 .

Don't know how you are getting the 58K here....12K from all-in guy and 30K from player C = 42K - still very good odds mind you......about 5-1.

But you have to be sure you can get Player C to commit th other 18K....and if he does you also have to bet another 18K - and not be sure of winning.....

Gholimoli wrote:

Your way of thinking is incorrect.
It doesn’t matter how much I have invested.

Of course it matters what you have invested....if you had raised to 10K initially then calling an extra 2K would be a no brainer...

Gholimoli wrote:

3 cards here is more than enough here for the odds im getting.

How do you figure this?

Gholimoli wrote:

This is a prime position to be in and an extremely good wager IMO and one that doesn’t really happen to often .
You should be taking advantage of situation like this not pass them up.

Probably.....but I would be genuinely interested to see how 8 5 off stands up against overcards and an overpair (just for example).....especially if you are possibly only getting three cards to hit......

Hitman Actual

30,300 in the pot when it gets back to you (assuming SB calls the 2K), and 8K to call so 20% equity (4/1). And your (practically) random hand is about 20% here IF the money was AI now.

And you only stand to win another 20K from the SB. So a little bit better than 6/1 in total for a call now, assuming you outflop the SB and get paid. They're not great implied odds, Gholi. You have to outflop the tight SB a lot of times for this to be profitable. If the stacks were much deeper, then you can call with a lot of hands. Here, I don't think its' a call with any two, but if you can show me some maths that says it is, then I'll believe you.

Edit: I think the question is, how often does a random hand outflop the range JJ+, AK, because you should get the rest of the SBs money on any flop.

jimbling

I think there's more to this than just the maths of outfloping the others or not.
It's 8k to call, but that 8k is 1/4 your stack at a pivotal point in the tournament. Perhaps it can be put to better use later (since you are the best player on the table )

Why not keep the 8k and beat them all to a bloody pulp with your superior skill in later hands.

Hitman Actual

jimbling wrote:

I think there's more to this than just the maths of outfloping the others or not.
It's 8k to call, but that 8k is 1/4 your stack at a pivotal point in the tournament. Perhaps it can be put to better use later (since you are the best player on the table )

Why not keep the 8k and beat them all to a bloody pulp with your superior skill in later hands.

I was thinking about that too, but he'll still have 17BBs if he calls which isn't too bad to play on with.

Tar.Aldarion

Call, then call the push. you were just unlucky. I don't see anything else you should have done.

jimbling

lenny_leonard wrote:

I was thinking about that too, but he'll still have 17BBs if he calls which isn't too bad to play on with.

Indeed, it's still playable.... but it will definitely start feeling uncomfortable. Also, we don't know when the blinds are next moving up.
But either way. Even if he does hit the flop, as seen, this is not a guarantee that the hand is won.

To be honest Gholi, I am very surprised to hear you slate the fold here.* I recall you quite aggressively advocating the philosophy of thinking about a tournament as a whole rather than at a hand per hand basis.
I understand you're only looking at 1st or 2nd, and this opportunity presents a chance to get yourself set up for an easy ride to that position. But the fact is, you can outplay these guys... do you really NEED to risk the chips.



*Absolutely no real problem with disagreeing with it, and going for the call (I would prob do so myself), but the fold is a very viable option.

Gholimoli

jimbling wrote:

Indeed, it's still playable.... but it will definitely start feeling uncomfortable. Also, we don't know when the blinds are next moving up.
But either way. Even if he does hit the flop, as seen, this is not a guarantee that the hand is won.

To be honest Gholi, I am very surprised to hear you slate the fold here.* I recall you quite aggressively advocating the philosophy of thinking about a tournament as a whole rather than at a hand per hand basis.
I understand you're only looking at 1st or 2nd, and this opportunity presents a chance to get yourself set up for an easy ride to that position. But the fact is, you can outplay these guys... do you really NEED to risk the chips.



*Absolutely no real problem with disagreeing with it, and going for the call (I would prob do so myself), but the fold is a very viable option.

First of all one correction here however I still think it’s a clear call with out this correction.
SB had nearly 40K and not 30K as I originally posted.
He had 30K after he called the raise so his push post flop was for 30K.
I hear this a lot like “if you’re the best player then out play them later “
Or “you’re a better player why risk your chips with a bad hand”.
What do you think makes one player better than the other?
I mean we can all raise with AA,KK and call a push, try a steal ,calculate odds ,make a bluff etc.
When your saying out play them later, what is it exactly that I am suppose to do?
I mean if my opponents get AA and I get 89 how exactly do I “outplay him”.
Better player IMO is not just playing a hand better but recognising a good opportunity.
What I said before about looking at a tournament as a whole still goes.
I am looking at it as whole and I want to win it.
in order to that I have to get all the chips in play and I am presented with a very good opportunity here to win a lot of them with a relatively low risk.

I just did a poker-stove comparison for this and here is how it goes:

Hand 1: 38.5184 % 33.45% 05.07% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 43.2830 % 38.20% 05.09% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 18.1986 % 17.91% 00.29% { random }

So I have nearly 20% equity against the two of them .that’s like 4:1 dog.
Im getting 40K(including my implied odds) + 12K +4K =56K
And all I have to do is call another 8K for this to happen. That’s 7:1 odds nearly double what I need.
Even with my original post it would have been 8K to win 46K, which is 5.75:1 almost 6:1.
Now I can save my self 8K in chips or take a 8K risk to knock to players out and become a huge chip lead.
Which do you think is better?

5starpool

This sounds very much like 'I am not the person in the OP' threads......

Gholimoli

5starpool wrote:

This sounds very much like 'I am not the person in the OP' threads......

nope i am infact...
have you got a problem Boldy ...i mean Mody ?:D

marius

Gholimoli wrote:

First of all one correction here however I still think it’s a clear call with out this correction.
SB had nearly 40K and not 30K as I originally posted.
He had 30K after he called the raise so his push post flop was for 30K.
I hear this a lot like “if you’re the best player then out play them later “
Or “you’re a better player why risk your chips with a bad hand”.
What do you think makes one player better than the other?
I mean we can all raise with AA,KK and call a push, try a steal ,calculate odds ,make a bluff etc.
When your saying out play them later, what is it exactly that I am suppose to do?
I mean if my opponents get AA and I get 89 how exactly do I “outplay him”.
Better player IMO is not just playing a hand better but recognising a good opportunity.
What I said before about looking at a tournament as a whole still goes.
I am looking at it as whole and I want to win it.
in order to that I have to get all the chips in play and I am presented with a very good opportunity here to win a lot of them with a relatively low risk.

I just did a poker-stove comparison for this and here is how it goes:

Hand 1: 38.5184 % 33.45% 05.07% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 43.2830 % 38.20% 05.09% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 18.1986 % 17.91% 00.29% { random }

So I have nearly 20% equity against the two of them .that’s like 4:1 dog.
Im getting 40K(including my implied odds) + 12K +4K =56K
And all I have to do is call another 8K for this to happen. That’s 7:1 odds nearly double what I need.
Even with my original post it would have been 8K to win 46K, which is 5.75:1 almost 6:1.
Now I can save my self 8K in chips or take a 8K risk to knock to players out and become a huge chip lead.
Which do you think is better?

Gholi,
That is 20% for a Random hand, A random hand could be AA here - there is no point doing the calculation for a random hand here as it completely changes the situation. The question was would you fold 'any two' here and I think I would fold 8 5 here not a Random hand.........what equity does 8 5 have here?

Also - as stated before - you are calculating this equity on 5 cards - in most situations you will only get to see three....only when you hit the flop hard are you continuing.....I have no idea how to factor this into a calculation but you get my point.....the other two hands have a massive advantage as one is all in - so will deffo see 5 cards and the other is, you feel, comitted to the hand no matter what the flop is....so he will also see 5 cards....

Hitman Actual

Are you putting any more money in when you miss the flop, Gholi? Or just hit a pair, and hope that villain missed with AK (but you could still be behind to JJ+)? You need to hit the flop hard, 2-pair or better a lot of the time. Using the equity over 5 cards doesn't count unless you intend getting the money in on the flop regardless. And I believe you fold when you miss, which is 2/3s of the time (unless you're happy to get it in on a straight draw, which doesn't happen very often with a 2-gapper).

Edit: I'm not saying this is a fold, btw, but I think it's close. (The fact that you posted it means it's close anyway, because you don't post any of the obvious situations). But I love to see the figures in these cases!

Ste05

Gholi, there's one major flaw with your Pokerstove equation. It calculates the odds based on you seeing 5 cards. You will only get to see 3. I can't remember the odds on a random hand outflopping AA (we might as well make it AA, because if you have K4 ands the flop is K high then are you going to go to the felt with your K or even K4?? I remember a Gigabet thread about a guy exposing AA against a random hand and how much he should bet, I'll go have a look for it, and that should give us the exact odds needed. It could be around 7:1 like your getting but it's certainly more than the 4:1 people are talking about here.

I haven't quite made my mind up yet, but I'd think you'd need to look at your cards here to decide on whether to call or not.

Gholimoli

Silly mistake on my part about the pokerstove calculations.
As correctly pointed out that would be for 5 cards and not 3.
Basically I need to know the odds of flopping two pair/or better with two unpaired cards here.
I think the odds are something like 7:1 or maybe 8:1 which makes this a lot closer than I initially thought.
Having said that I think the odds and the situation it present if I win the hand still favours a call.

Tar.Aldarion

Flopping two pair (using both of your hole cards): 49-1 (2%)
Flopping two pair (using only one of your hole cards): 24-1 (4%)

ocallagh

I think it's a fold. You can be sure player C is gonna ship his 30k into the pot on the flop. You need huge odds to outflop his range (which is primarily big pairs) and I don't think you have those odds. Keep the 8k.

Another point to make, Even if you hit 2 pair (T58), or that dream flop (588) you don't have a lock on the hand - your opponent still has between 10% and 20% to outdraw you on the turn and river, and there is a 3rd player who could do the same providing he has a pair.

jimbling

Gholimoli wrote:

First of all one correction here however I still think it’s a clear call with out this correction.
SB had nearly 40K and not 30K as I originally posted.
He had 30K after he called the raise so his push post flop was for 30K.
I hear this a lot like “if you’re the best player then out play them later “
Or “you’re a better player why risk your chips with a bad hand”.
What do you think makes one player better than the other?
I mean we can all raise with AA,KK and call a push, try a steal ,calculate odds ,make a bluff etc.
When your saying out play them later, what is it exactly that I am suppose to do?
I mean if my opponents get AA and I get 89 how exactly do I “outplay him”.
Better player IMO is not just playing a hand better but recognising a good opportunity.
What I said before about looking at a tournament as a whole still goes.
I am looking at it as whole and I want to win it.
in order to that I have to get all the chips in play and I am presented with a very good opportunity here to win a lot of them with a relatively low risk.

I just did a poker-stove comparison for this and here is how it goes:

Hand 1: 38.5184 % 33.45% 05.07% { JJ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 43.2830 % 38.20% 05.09% { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 3: 18.1986 % 17.91% 00.29% { random }

So I have nearly 20% equity against the two of them .that’s like 4:1 dog.
Im getting 40K(including my implied odds) + 12K +4K =56K
And all I have to do is call another 8K for this to happen. That’s 7:1 odds nearly double what I need.
Even with my original post it would have been 8K to win 46K, which is 5.75:1 almost 6:1.
Now I can save my self 8K in chips or take a 8K risk to knock to players out and become a huge chip lead.
Which do you think is better?

The main point:
I disagree. I think calling for 1/4 stack hoping to hit two pair or better is a bad play. You just don't have enough chips to be doing this. I think your own chip stack, and "m" need to come into decisions more in poker. It should be part of the EV equation.


Secondary:
And lol@your good player Vs bad player.

"I mean we can all raise with AA,KK and call a push, try a steal* ,calculate odds ,make a bluff etc."
Yes but you do it BETTER than them. You call the push when you are ahead not behind. You make a bluff when you are most likely to get away with it.

I mean, Jeez Gholi...what do u use to decide when to do the above? is it random... Ill take a chance Im ahead here so call the push???? no, you use your skill as a poker player to make the best judgement of the call. Decide if its a plus EV call are not.
Some people are better than others at doing this. I presumed that when you said you were the best player at the table this is what you meant. Not just that you could figure out when was the best time to "get em in there"


*This is exactly what happened here, you tried a steal, it didn't work. fold.

Another sidenote:
I once saw a quote from a top player (don't recall who) that a perfect game of poker (tournament) was one where you never had all you're chips at risk in a tournament.
Now this is a rare occurrence indeed, but it should be what we all strive for. How can anyone achieve this? they do it by outplaying opponents. Not necessarily by picking the best spots to risk your chips.

This is why I have some problems with the +EV method used during tournaments. People don't take into account tournament life, chips left to play with etc when they work it out.
Its like people make the +EV judgement first (using odds/outs/folding equity and ranges).
Then some people think about it further....e.g. does the fact that I am all in and out of the tournament if I lose outweigh the +EV of this current situation?*.... while others don't even get to this and just blast away**.


*Again, I think it should be part of the EV calculation, not an afterthought.
Also, perhaps people do do this, but they certainly don't talk about it

** This is predominantly cash game based players.

jimbling

Obviously, by adding this into the calculation of EV it becomes much harder to work out. And not only that, different people will come to different EV conclusions. This makes it harder to compare hands, or work out if a hand is correct or not. Because different styles will have different beliefs.

But realistically EV is already a science of guesswork. That guesswork has intelligence behind it, but it's guesswork nonetheless.
Foding equity / villain range etc are complete opinion. They are based on your information about the opponent and the experience of situations... but it is still a very fragile calculation.
That's why I always find it humorous that someone can decide the correct play and be adamant that it is so from their own EV calculation.

Hitman Actual

The odds for a hand like 85o out-flopping a pair (say AA) are:

Quads, 888, 555 = 2 combs.
Full house: 885, 558 = (3 x 3C2) x 2 = 18 combs
Trips, 88x, or 55x, x not an Ace = (3C2 x 46) x 2 = 276 combs
2-pair: 85x, x not an Ace, 8 or 5 = (6C2 x 46) - the above combs = 394
Straight, 45678 or 56789 = (4x4x4) x 2 = 128

So, 818 combs out of 19600 possible flops = 23/1. We don't know the exact pair that the opponent has, so we can basically say that it's 23/1 to outflop a pair TT+. And the opponent will still win a certain % of the time, like Niall says.

But 40% of the time the villain has AK, and we need to know how both Gholi and the opponent plays when, say Gholi hits a pair and the opponent misses completely. And we still need to take into account the hand that the AI player might have, which might affect side-pots, etc. So 40% of the time, all the variables in this unknown info have to be favourable enough to bring a 23/1 shot down to around 7/1, or whatever our implied odds are.

I can't see that happening.

Edit: I knew I made a mistake somewhere:

lenny_leonard wrote:

2-pair: 85x, x not an Ace, 8 or 5 = (6C2 x 46) minus (quads + FH combs) = 670

This gives 1094 flop combs where 85o outflops a pair TT+. So odds of 1094/19600 = ~17/1. Which is a bit better, but still not enough, I don't think.

Gholimoli

jimbling wrote:

The main point:
I think calling for 1/4 stack hoping to hit two pair or better is a bad play. You just don't have enough chips to be doing this. I think your own chip stack, and "m" need to come into decisions more in poker. It should be part of the EV equation.

this is simply not true.
if the odds are in favor of a call then it dosent matter how much of your stack is in there.
this is just a silly way of looking at it to say what % of your stack your risking.
for example if you had AA here and SB had 77 and he pushed ,should we call?
i persume your answer is yes.
if we call does that mean we will not lose?
no it dosent.there is 20% chance of us loosing but we have enough EDGE and the ODDS favor us so we call.no matter what % of our stack it is.
i donno why people dont get this.

jimbling wrote:

Secondary:
And lol@your good player Vs bad player.

"I mean we can all raise with AA,KK and call a push, try a steal* ,calculate odds ,make a bluff etc."
Yes but you do it BETTER than them. You call the push when you are ahead not behind. You make a bluff when you are most likely to get away with it.

I mean, Jeez Gholi...what do u use to decide when to do the above? is it random... Ill take a chance Im ahead here so call the push???? no, you use your skill as a poker player to make the best judgement of the call. Decide if its a plus EV call are not.
Some people are better than others at doing this. I presumed that when you said you were the best player at the table this is what you meant. Not just that you could figure out when was the best time to "get em in there"

again as i saif before part of being a good player IMO is reliasing when you have a good oppertunity.
some time its when you have good cards ,other times its when you dont have such good cards but you think you have the winning hand etc.
figuring out when you have a good wager to invest in is a crucial part of being a good player.
and a good wager means just that .when you have the best of IT.not best cards but best of it.
i may have been wrong in my judgment here (even though im still not convinced) but if i am its becuase of miscalculations and coming up with wrong odds .
i think the worse mistake here is to look at your cards and say "ok 85 is not good i better fold " with out considering whats on offer.



*This is exactly what happened here, you tried a steal, it didn't work. fold.

jimbling wrote:

Another sidenote:
I once saw a quote from a top player (don't recall who) that a perfect game of poker (tournament) was one where you never had all you're chips at risk in a tournament.

this is total bull.
again if you had AA and some one went all in who covered you would you not call?
there is always a risk but its the risk versus reward ratio that should be factored.

jimbling wrote:

This is why I have some problems with the +EV method used during tournaments. People don't take into account tournament life, chips left to play with etc when they work it out.
Its like people make the +EV judgement first (using odds/outs/folding equity and ranges).

again this is wrong .
you are not understanding tourney poker at all if you think like that.
people play based on EV,odds,outs for a reason.
its the correct way of playing.
its really simple.
to win a tounrney you need to get all the chips in play right?
in order to win chips you need to accept wagers where other players chips are involved.
simply put you need to look for good wagers and stay away from bad ones.
what makes a wager good or bad?
if you have the best of it then its a good one and if you dont have the best of it its a bad one.
having the best of it if "the chances of you winning that wager x the amount you win are greater than the chances of you loosing that wager x amount you lose" .
what i have in "" above is basically EV.
what decides that is odds/outs/FE/etc .
so how can you say its wrong.
its what poker is based on.

jimbling

i disagree.
Part of tournament poker is knowing when to pass up edges, even if you do have the best of it. lets take an extreme example:
There are 3 players left in a massively top heavy tournament, with only top two getting paid.
You: 80K
villain1: 90k
Villain2: 10k

You get dealt 1010. Villain1 goes all in.
Now, lets pretend, hypothetically, that you have a massive tell on villain1 - or, for arguments sake, lets say he turned his cards face up by accident. You see AK.
DO YOU CALL??????

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

jimbling

Gholimoli wrote:

this is simply not true.
if the odds are in favor of a call then it dosent matter how much of your stack is in there.
this is just a silly way of looking at it to say what % of your stack your risking.
for example if you had AA here and SB had 77 and he pushed ,should we call?
i persume your answer is yes.
if we call does that mean we will not lose?
no it dosent.there is 20% chance of us loosing but we have enough EDGE and the ODDS favor us so we call.no matter what % of our stack it is.
i donno why people dont get this.

lol gholi... im not saying you u pass up everything. All im saying is it needs to be taken into consideration. If by taking this edge, you are seriously hampering you chances of continueing on to win the tournement then you have to take that into account.
So, if you fold, you reckon you have a 60% chance of winning the tournament from youre current position. (you are by far the best player - but poker is poker) If you take this edge and win, it ups your chance of winning to 70%, but if you take this edge and lose then your chance of winning the tournemnt goes down to 20%. HOW CAN YOU NOT TAKE THIS INTO ACCOUNT.

Its different in different situations. Like earlier in a tournament, when there is a huge amount of play to go, I would be much more willing to take risks. This is because my % chance of winning the tournament from this point is very low and needs to increased.


im making this up as I go along... but I do think I have a very valid point

Gholimoli wrote:

i think the worse mistake here is to look at your cards and say "ok 85 is not good i better fold " with out considering whats on offer.

Again, I was never saying this....

Gholimoli wrote:

this is total bull.
again if you had AA and some one went all in who covered you would you not call?
there is always a risk but its the risk versus reward ratio that should be factored.

see my example. This goes back to the age old argument of folding AA preflop. People do do it. These are players who think along this lines very strongly - more so than me. why risk your tournament if you can outwit the players without risking your tournament.

Gholimoli wrote:

again this is wrong .
you are not understanding tourney poker at all if you think like that.
people play based on EV,odds,outs for a reason.
its the correct way of playing.
its really simple.
to win a tounrney you need to get all the chips in play right?
in order to win chips you need to accept wagers where other players chips are involved.
simply put you need to look for good wagers and stay away from bad ones.
what makes a wager good or bad?
if you have the best of it then its a good one and if you dont have the best of it its a bad one.
having the best of it if "the chances of you winning that wager x the amount you win are greater than the chances of you loosing that wager x amount you lose" .
what i have in "" above is basically EV.
what decides that is odds/outs/FE/etc .
so how can you say its wrong.
its what poker is based on.

bull****.
And also, I am not saying its wrong. I am saying its flawed.

Gholimoli

jimbling wrote:

i disagree.
Part of tournament poker is knowing when to pass up edges, even if you do have the best of it. lets take an extreme example:
There are 3 players left in a massively top heavy tournament, with only top two getting paid.
You: 80K
villain1: 90k
Villain2: 10k

You get dealt 1010. Villain1 goes all in.
Now, lets pretend, hypothetically, that you have a massive tell on villain1 - or, for arguments sake, lets say he turned his cards face up by accident. You see AK.
DO YOU CALL??????

this is silly Jimbling .refusing an almost coinflip when the flip side is that your gone is not what i call passing an edge in tourney.
you are comparing cEV with $EV here .
you only adjust this and bring this in to considration when you need to .
to say part of tourney poker is passing up edges is madness.
i believe however we have a different deffenition what an edge is.
i also believe the problem lies in your understanding of fundemental concepts.

jimbling

Gholimoli wrote:

this is silly Jimbling .refusing an almost coinflip when the flip side is that your gone is not what i call passing an edge in tourney.
you are comparing cEV with $EV here .
you only adjust this and bring this in to considration when you need to .
to say part of tourney poker is passing up edges is madness.
i believe however we have a different deffenition what an edge is.
i also believe the problem lies in your understanding of fundemental concepts.

lol..... you just put a pinpoint on it..... Thats exactly what Im talking about. Generally here, when talking about a hand they treat the EV the same, cash game or tournament. But its not the same. In the context of the topics here what people are actually talking about is cEV, but some don't realise it. And don't take the impacting tourney situations that effect the $EV into account.


and back to your comments. Gholi, you are a mass of contradictions here. firstly, That example is not silly, its just the easiest example to work out, therefore you can calculate it into the equation much easier. AND WHAT?? passing up a 55%/45% is not passing up an edge??????

then, two sentences later you go on again about passing up edges is madness..... when you agree you would.


If you believe I don't have a full understanding of the fundamental concepts, then please tell me what fundamentals you think I don't understand, and I will try to learn from it.

Ste05

jimbling wrote:

i disagree.
Part of tournament poker is knowing when to pass up edges, even if you do have the best of it. lets take an extreme example:
There are 3 players left in a massively top heavy tournament, with only top two getting paid.
You: 80K
villain1: 90k
Villain2: 10k

You get dealt 1010. Villain1 goes all in.
Now, lets pretend, hypothetically, that you have a massive tell on villain1 - or, for arguments sake, lets say he turned his cards face up by accident. You see AK.
DO YOU CALL??????

I presume this is the example you wanted me to read Jimbling.

Obviously this would be a pass. This would be similar to a Satellite bubble decision such as hand 1 in this thread. Where it was a +EV call looking at it from a mathematical cash game basis, but a SERIOUSLY -EV decision when all other factors are taken into consideration.

Obviously, part of tournament Poker is not about passing up edges, in fact it's quite the opposite. The main advantage a decent player has is actually the ability to correctly locate edges and then have the Balls to carry it through.

But in a tournament you should add certain other factors into your decision. How to do this and what factors should be taken into consideration would take a book to properly articulate, and there are loads of differing views and opinions about what should be considered. I kind of alluded to some of them in the other thread.

jimbling

Ste05 wrote:

I presume this is the example you wanted me to read Jimbling.

Obviously this would be a pass. This would be similar to a Satellite bubble decision such as hand 1 in this thread. Where it was a +EV call looking at it from a mathematical cash game basis, but a SERIOUSLY -EV decision when all other factors are taken into consideration.

Obviously, part of tournament Poker is not about passing up edges, in fact it's quite the opposite. The main advantage a decent player has is actually the ability to correctly locate edges and then have the Balls to carry it through.

But in a tournament you should add certain other factors into your decision. How to do this and what factors should be taken into consideration would take a book to properly articulate, and there are loads of differing views and opinions about what should be considered. I kind of alluded to some of them in the other thread.

okay, but what I meant by the passing up edges... were the mathematical cash game style edges that some people base everything on.
My main argument in this thread was that gholi said that considering the tournament as a whole and what chips you have left etc should not come into the equation, when the should.

Hitman Actual

jimbling wrote:

lol.Generally here, when talking about a hand they treat the EV the same, cash game or tournament.

I disagree, I'd say most players here know the difference between the two, and treat them differently. But a lot of tourney questions are when people are far from the money, and CEV far outweighs $EV in the equation (to the extent that $EV can be ignored). And in this case, I don't think $EV is critically important, as the call looks to be seriously -CEV; I'd say if you ran it through ICM, Gholi is losing $EV with this call (cue more disagreements, but whatever).

jimbling

lenny_leonard wrote:

I disagree, I'd say most players here know the difference between the two, and treat them differently. But a lot of tourney questions are when people are far from the money, and CEV far outweighs $EV in the equation (to the extent that $EV can be ignored). And in this case, I don't think $EV is critically important, as the call looks to be seriously -CEV; I'd say if you ran it through ICM, Gholi is losing $EV with this call (cue more disagreements, but whatever).

okay, perhaps your correct there. But in this example one of Gholi's points what that he was the best player at the table. What does this do to the equation?

Firstly, it lessons the need for risking chips when you are behind because you can increase your chips in other ways. Secondly, it means that the chips he has become more important as he can put them to better use in more beneficial situations.

This needed to be taken into account when working out if this call was +EV or not. Gholi disagreed.

Is that thinking flawed?? I honestly would like to know, as it is perfectly logical to me :eek:

Gholimoli

jimbling wrote:

okay, perhaps your correct there. But in this example one of Gholi's points what that he was the best player at the table. What does this do to the equation?

Firstly, it lessons the need for risking chips when you are behind because you can increase your chips in other ways. Secondly, it means that the chips he has become more important as he can put them to better use in more beneficial situations.

This needed to be taken into account when working out if this call was +EV or not. Gholi disagreed.

Is that thinking flawed?? I honestly would like to know, as it is perfectly logical to me :eek:

Jim,
Me saying i was the best player on the table doesn’t have anything directly to do with the situation.
i was just pointing out that i didn’t feel that i was outclassed or would be out played in anyway.
Also that i was able to read situations better than others.
Again i may have made a mistake about this particular situation but my point is that you should keep an eye out for them.

You said your self in one post that "when people talk about EV they only refer to the chances of their hand winning against their opponents " and you said that this shouldn’t be in a tourney.
Yet in the above post you say "it lessons the need for risking chips when you are behind because you can increase your chips in other ways.”.
You need to understand that your hand being behind a certain hand is just one part of the equations.
The other part is the odds on offer.
You complain about most people only taking the "odds" part in to consideration but you your self are only taking the other part in to consideration which is just as bad.

cardshark202

Okay I see there are a lot of replies to this one but without reading any I think this is a clear fold.

jimbling

Gholimoli wrote:

Jim,
Me saying i was the best player on the table doesn’t have anything directly to do with the situation.
i was just pointing out that i didn’t feel that i was outclassed or would be out played in anyway.

Okay, fair enough. But when I think I am the best player on a table that means I feel I can outplay them - rather than just been concerned with them outplaying me
That I can find there weaknesses and play the players much more than usual. Basically, I can push people around easily and accumulate chips with less friction, with less risk.
This means I do not have to take every opportunity that comes my way. I can take the risk into my equations more than usual. (its still just a factor, but it becomes a slightly stronger factor)
And that is why I thought it brought the chip risk more into the EV equation in this case.

Gholimoli wrote:

You complain about most people only taking the "odds" part in to consideration but you your self are only taking the other part in to consideration which is just as bad.

this is where you are completely wrong gholi... I am only taking them into consideration. The odds/outs are the dominant factors in any equation. In fact, if you go back to my original posts I commented that I most likely would have made the call. The only reason this argument started was because you slated someone for suggesting a fold... saying it was ridiculous. I thought it was much closer a decision due to the reasons given. You then stated that these factors should not be taken into consideration at all when working the equation out.....and so the debate began. You now seem to have altered your standpoint to say that you do agree they need to be considered, but that they just weren't big enough factors to sway you here. I am fine with that, as these factors are very difficult to quantify and are generally player/style specific.

Gholimoli

being the best player at the table dosent mean you can push the others around at all.
you could be facing hyper aggrro opponents in which case you have no option but to wait for good cards to trap them.
also when if i remeber correctly what i said in my other post was to reply to some 1 who said "you have only invested 4K ..."which he was implying that i should get away just becuase i have only invested 4K in the pot which is absured.
there was no mention of anything else or another post was "i dont see the need of risking 1/4 of your stack with 85..." which is again just flat out wrong way of thinking about the situation.

marius

Gholimoli wrote:

also when if i remeber correctly what i said in my other post was to reply to some 1 who said "you have only invested 4K ..."which he was implying that i should get away just becuase i have only invested 4K in the pot which is absured.
there was no mention of anything else or another post was "i dont see the need of risking 1/4 of your stack with 85..." which is again just flat out wrong way of thinking about the situation.

Gholi...I made two points....

marius wrote:

I think I might be able to find a fold here - it depends how confident I am about outplaying the rest of the table....you only have 4K invested. Obviously you are getting great odds for the call - but if you pass it is more than likely another player is going out.

You also know that you are probably only going to get to see the flop as Player C is more than likely going to push any flop, so you are counting on hitting three cards - not five.....

The fact that you only have 4K invested in the hand is of course valid as I pointed out after - if you have 10K invested it is a no brainer...Saying the amount you have invested in the hand has no relevance is totally absurd - it should always be taken into consideration.

The second point regarding only seeing the flop was one that you have subsequently accepted as being true....

The more I think about this the more this is a clear fold for me.....

BigCityBanker

This is an interesting thread - I fold every time btw.

Gholli - why do you ask for opinions, allow people to respond and then tell them they are wrong? Perhaps you should change your thread title to "you should never fold this because"

Gholimoli

BigCityBanker wrote:

This is an interesting thread - I fold every time btw.

Gholli - why do you ask for opinions, allow people to respond and then tell them they are wrong? Perhaps you should change your thread title to "you should never fold this because"

LOL,
I don’t ask for opinions just to say they are wrong.
However i will refuse to accept an opinion that is not backed up by a sound logical explanation.
I stated previously in this thread that i was wrong about some of my assumptions and calculations and this is infact closer decision than i initially thought it was but some of the arguments in this thread are just wrong or the even if they have the correct answer the reasoning behind it is flawed.
Few people correctly argued that I didn’t consider the 3 cards v 5 cards in my calculations and I accepted because I was wrong so I do accept it different opinions if they are LOGICAL.

marius

Gholimoli wrote:

LOL,
I don’t ask for opinions just to say they are wrong.
However i will refuse to accept an opinion that is not backed up by a sound logical explanation.
I stated previously in this thread that i was wrong about some of my assumptions and calculations and this is infact closer decision than i initially thought it was but some of the arguments in this thread are just wrong or the even if they have the correct answer the reasoning behind it is flawed.
Few people correctly argued that I didn’t consider the 3 cards v 5 cards in my calculations and I accepted because I was wrong so I do accept it different opinions if they are LOGICAL.

Gholi, you seem to look at who the poster is and then decide whether to consider their point, or even read their post....

I pointed the 3 cards vs. 5 cards thing to you in my first post, your reply was something like 'you cannot possibly be considering a fold'

It was only when a few other people subsequently pointed this out to you that you seemed to think about it and agree that it was LOGICAL....

It hurts, you know....Im a real boy....JUST LIKE YOU:D

Gholimoli

marius wrote:

Gholi...I made two points....



The fact that you only have 4K invested in the hand is of course valid as I pointed out after - if you have 10K invested it is a no brainer...Saying the amount you have invested in the hand has no relevance is totally absurd - it should always be taken into consideration.

The second point regarding only seeing the flop was one that you have subsequently accepted as being true....

The more I think about this the more this is a clear fold for me.....

Marius,
i think you have an idea of what’s going on but don’t clearly understand what is really happening and the real elements that make the difference.
Why do you think the amount invested has anything to do with your decision?
What is the difference if i had invested 4K or 10K?

What you have put in the pot is no longer yours so whether you "invest" 1BB or 20BB its irrelevant.
However what does make the difference is the different "ODDS" that are offered to you based on how much you have actually put in.
To illustrate take consider the below example:

You have a 30K stack.
You raise UTG with 85 and make it 4K.
It’s folded to button who makes it 10K.
You are certain button has 88+ and nothing else.
It’s folded back to you and its 6K to you.
Should you call?
The answer is a clear no as im sure you agree.

Now lets change things a bit.
Same stack as above.
You raise UTG to 4K again with 85.
Now this time UTG+1 makes it 10K.
Now every one calls and its back to you and you have to call the 6K.
Should you call this?

In both cases you have "invested" only 4K in the pot so what do you think is the difference?
Do you see now what i mean when i say the amount you invest is not relevant at all in the way that you think?

BigCityBanker

Gholimoli wrote:

LOL,
I don’t ask for opinions just to say they are wrong.

Gholli, at least be honest