offended by the crib/nativity/etc

subway

letter in the indo today that atheists are offended by scenes of the naticity at christmas as it reminds them "they are not accpeted as full active citizens"
i can only read that as a politically correct way of saying "second class"

as a long time non religious person i am not in anyway offended by the nativity.
if i wanted to, i suppose i easliy could find plenty of reasons why i could be offended by it, but honestly it doesnt mean that much to me.

it doesnt make me feel degraded in anyway.

is anyone actually offended by christmas, and why does it offend you?

ps, i do enjoy the christmas holidays and santy and presents and all that

J.R.HARTLEY

same here, sounds like a self important liveline whinger,
some people always have to have something to get their knickers in a knot over

aidan24326

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

same here, sounds like a self important liveline whinger,
some people always have to have something to get their knickers in a knot over

I would echo that. Some people are 'offended' just a little too easily for my liking, and it's what fuels alot of this 'politically correct' bullsh1t. You can't say boo now but you're surely offending some self-important arsehole.

...as it reminds them "they are not accpeted as full active citizens"

we aren't?? That's news to me. What a load of tosh. Personally I don't find the nativity scenes or the crib offensive, why would I? How could anyone be offended by it? I might not believe it or follow the religion that it's part of but it really means nothing to me. If someone wants to believe that load of nonsense that's up to them. Not my problem.

18AD

The one thing about christmas I don't understand is the fact that people use it as an excuse to be merry or whatever. This happiness or sadness comes from themselves and has nothing to do with the goings on of christmas as it's an utterly meaningless ritual to me. And happy or sad, the person feeling it has something important to overcome within themselves, be that happiness from attainment of material things, sad memories of the season or happy memories which are confined to this time.

That said, I am not offended by the goings on at this time nor does the time emote anything in me that I can identify with besides the empathetic feelings towards other people which I feel anyway, regardless of time of year, be they more intense or not for christmas.

Zombrex

subway wrote:

letter in the indo today that atheists are offended by scenes of the naticity at christmas as it reminds them "they are not accpeted as full active citizens"
i can only read that as a politically correct way of saying "second class"

as a long time non religious person i am not in anyway offended by the nativity.
if i wanted to, i suppose i easliy could find plenty of reasons why i could be offended by it, but honestly it doesnt mean that much to me.

it doesnt make me feel degraded in anyway.

is anyone actually offended by christmas, and why does it offend you?

ps, i do enjoy the christmas holidays and santy and presents and all that

The only time I've ever seen a nativity display is in a Church. If an atheist is in a church in the first place I don't really see what he/she has to complain about.

Unfortunately being an atheist, just like being a theists, doesn't stop someone from being a dumb-ass

Firewalkwithme

Wicknight wrote:

The only time I've ever seen a nativity display is in a Church. If an atheist is in a church in the first place I don't really see what he/she has to complain about.

There's plenty of them around - I was in Nutgrove shopping centre last week and they had one set up. I don't find it offensive since I've better things to be thinking about just like the Muslims and Sikhs I regularly see shopping there also seem to have.

I just regard them as Christmas decorations - not some kind of statement of faith, i.e. "All ye who shop here should be believers". And besides, I don't celebrate Christmas anymore - though we have a surprisingly similar event in our home on December 25th called Xmas. It's basically the same as Christmas except you don't go to mass or listen to the Archbishop on TV reminding you to think of the true meaning of Christmas in the midst of the annual commercially driven event that Christmas (or Xmas) has become. Nah, we don't waste time sitting around pondering the significance that December 25 is the highly duboius date that our alleged lord and saviour Jesus Christ was supposedly born. Instead we do what most families do; eat, drink and be merry. I also enjoy Xmas eve (Panic Buying Day) and the day after Xmas (Nurse Your Hangover or Time for a Cure Day.)

Merry Xmas Everyone

subway

Wicknight wrote:

The only time I've ever seen a nativity display is in a Church. If an atheist is in a church in the first place I don't really see what he/she has to complain about.

Unfortunately being an atheist, just like being a theists, doesn't stop someone from being a dumb-ass

well there is one bang in the middle of o connell street.
perhaps that was the letter writers point?

i tend to agree with the posters so far and guess this is just one regular old dumb ass whinging for the sake of it

i do enjoy the whole "merriness" of the season tho,
i get to see a lot of old friends and go the pub more than usual
oh, and the music isnt half bad either....

subway

Cartoon_Head wrote:

Merry Xmas Everyone

you too

Dades

I wonder if the aforementioned whiner gets offended by displays of witches on Halloween...

Don't you oppress me!

aidan24326

The Atheist wrote:

I wonder if the aforementioned whiner gets offended by displays of witches on Halloween...

A whining idiot like that is likely to be 'offended' by just about anything. I have little time for such people.

We are primarily catholic country so I've no problem with there being a crib in places like O'Connell St. or in shopping centres. I just pass no heed of it at all. Couldn't care less.

On a side note, I wonder will the same eejit who's so offended by cribs be celebrating Christmas just the same? Will he/she be so offended by the whole shebang when they're (more than likley) chomping on a big turkey leg on December 25?

lostexpectation

an unusual letter, hopefully its by someone cleverly trying to broaden the discussion beyond, non-christians darkies being offended.

i do like this line

"reminders that athiests are not accepted as full active citizens"

if there any follow up letters I bet you atheism will not be mentioned again.


nativty scenes i mean really, tatty crap mostly.

someone write a letter to the times requesting shopping centre get rid of santas.

and then have people saying your killing christmas, what has santa got to do with christmas

I hate having to use my name in LTTEs, unless there is reason for your name to appear (like speaking in an offical capacity)then there is no reason for your name to appear

Scofflaw

Not even slightly offended. I'm very fond of nativity scenes, which remind me of birth, which is a fundamental human experience, and also that humans depend on our animals surviving the winter. I'm certainly not offended by Santa, who is mainly a reminder that we often need each others' generosity. Christmas trees, of course, represent continuity and survival.

I'm occasionally offended by those of our Christian posters who prefer to ignore atheists, but I'm certainly not offended by symbols that are, at root, nothing to do with Christianity, and everything to do with our northern winters.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Just My View

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhh...
If I hear any more PC shiite I'm going to fukking scream.

Scofflaw

Just My View wrote:

Aaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhhhhhh...
If I hear any more PC shiite I'm going to fukking scream.

In reference to? Us, them, your computer fan, other people?

puzzled,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Wicknight wrote:

Unfortunately being an atheist, just like being a theists, doesn't stop someone from being a dumb-ass

Nail on the head:) I love the merriness of Christmas, has nothing to do with religion for me.

Zombrex

subway wrote:

well there is one bang in the middle of o connell street.

Cartoon_Head wrote:

There's plenty of them around - I was in Nutgrove shopping centre last week and they had one set up.

Honestly I had not even noticed (and I pass by O'Connell St twice a day)

And there was I thinking my atheists outrage was right on the cutting edge. Clearly I need to pay attention more

Stephen

I couldn't give a monkeys about the presence of cribs/nativity scenes either. Having taxpayers' money spent on them is slightly irritating but like another poster said, this is a predominately catholic country, so most people like to see these things.

I'm of the live and let live mindset - if it doesn't affect me, then I don't care what you do or believe in. Its only when religious types (or indeed any other groups) try to push their beliefs or customs on others that I get pissed off.

Esmereldina

I would agree with most of the posters here in that itt seems slightly silly to be offended by a crib... there is one in our house already and I quite like it...it brightens up that corner of the room! Apart from the fact that it represents a religious belief that I don't share, I also see it as part of the culture that I grew up in, as all of the things associated with Christmas are, and I think anyone who is offended by Christmas is a meanass

Dave!

surely Atheists should have more sense than to be offended by silly things like this

kippy

Great thread.
Glad to see not everyone is overly PC like the person that the OP mentioned.
Merry Xmas!
Kippy

MrJoeSoap

I agree with the overall sentiment of this thread, if you feel like the person who wrote that letter you need to get out more.

Or less. Whatever stops you writing letters to the Indo.

pH

An 'aggressive secularist' speaks
So now the spotlight is turned on "the fundamentalist secularists" who, according to the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, are the real villains of the piece. Sentamu opportunistically put out an overblown and hysterical statement, pointing the finger at "illiberal atheists".

"There is a worrying trend to be seen where illiberal atheists have combined with aggressive secularists to create a ludicrous situation where those who don't believe in God have decided that a Christian festival is offending other faiths," he said. "Aggressive secularists are trying to pretend that it is possible to enter into the true meaning of Christmas by leaving out Jesus Christ. The person who is at the heart of the celebration is totally excluded ...
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/terry_sanderson/2006/12/post_770.html.printer.friendly

So is it possible to "enter into the true meaning of Christmas by leaving out Jesus Christ."?

Does it matter? Does Christmas have a true meaning? It's widely accepted that the celebration date (end of year) has nothing to do with the actual date of birth, and as such Christmas is the continuation of older winter festivals.

Is the true meaning Christmas nowadays an end of year celebration, a time to get together and celebrate family and friends, to give gifts, remember the past year and look forward to the next?

Dave!

To your last sentence: yes.

Jesus only comes into it for a minority of people nowadays. We may put out a crib, put an angel on the top of the tree, sing O Holy Night, etc. -- but it's all just tradition, and nobody thinks twice about it because it's irrelevent.

lazylad

subway wrote:

letter in the indo today that atheists are offended by scenes of the naticity at christmas as it reminds them "they are not accpeted as full active citizens"
i can only read that as a politically correct way of saying "second class"

as a long time non religious person i am not in anyway offended by the nativity.
if i wanted to, i suppose i easliy could find plenty of reasons why i could be offended by it, but honestly it doesnt mean that much to me.

it doesnt make me feel degraded in anyway.

is anyone actually offended by christmas, and why does it offend you?

ps, i do enjoy the christmas holidays and santy and presents and all that

Yes, I'm shocked after growing up with so many happy experiences that people are offended by the festivity. What made them be offended by christmas?

Nevyn

I am not offended by the navity scene, it is a recreation of a myth and symbolises family.
No one seems to be offended by the pagan symbold that are on display,
it the 'christmas tree' and the other evergreens to hold back the death of winter,
all the lights to draw back the sun in the run up to winter soltaice,
the ham from the pig sacrifices to the god Freyr.
the yule log,

Gone West

Thaedydal wrote:

I am not offended by the navity scene, it is a recreation of a myth and symbolises family.
No one seems to be offended by the pagan symbold that are on display,
it the 'christmas tree' and the other evergreens to hold back the death of winter,
all the lights to draw back the sun in the run up to winter soltaice,
the ham from the pig sacrifices to the god Freyr.
the yule log,

Thaedydal is dead right. Winter celebrations were around for thousdands of years before Jesus Christ was born. Most of the symbology is pagan, or from other sources.


If someone were to be offended by the nativity being displayed in public, I'd say they have some other hang-ups or issues which must be addressed.

robindch

> the ham from the pig sacrifices to the god Freyr.

Didn't know that one. Thanks for pointing it out.

Out of interest -- with the exception of the figure of Jesus Christ and related items (crib, midnight mass etc), are there any elements of the traditional western christmas which originate from christian symbolism, or is absolutely everything imported from other festivals like Yule, the Saturnalia, the mid-winter solstice and others?

Nevyn

My view on it is that it is the intent that makes it christain or religious or not.

What is the difference between lighting a candle on a dinner table by an athiest and a person of what over faith or spiritual leanings ligthing a candle in pray for what ever/who ever or in devotion to who ever/ what ever ?

It is the intent and the act of will behind it.

The catholics have thier advent wreath which looks a lot like a solar cross wreath but they do mean different things to the people who hang/use them.

Asiaprod

Thaedydal wrote:

My view on it is that it is the intent that makes it christain or religious or not.

That says it all for me.

stevejazzx

I spied a naitivity today and immediately became deeply offended.
It was such a poor representation of a Manger that as artist, my natural instinct was disgust. There was no compassion on Babys Jesus's face either and don't get me started on Joseph who looked more like a fine purveyor of all things retro than any biblical carpenter. The Pièce de résistance however was a half dressed Mary holding a baby pig. Odd stuff indeed.

Asiaprod

stevejazzx wrote:

I spied a naitivity today and immediately became deeply offended.

Now that is interesting, because I also became offended by your post.
What exactly was the point you were trying to make? And while you think on the reply, might I take this opportunity to draw your attention to this section of the A/A Charter

2. Respect those who do not share your beliefs (or lack thereof). Though many here will share certain atheist or agnostic views - it is not acceptable to ridicule the faith or beliefs of others. Something that would be seen as a direct insult in, say, the Christianity or Islam forums will be similarly treated here.

stevejazzx

Apologies poor attempt at being humorous.

I was trying to point out the triviality of being offended by something like the naitivity. I just reread my post, yeah you're right it's stupid, if it helps though it was a real naitivity.

Asiaprod

stevejazzx wrote:

Apologies poor attempt at being humorous.

I was trying to point out the triviality of being offended by something like the naitivity. I just reread my post, yeah you're right it's stupid, if it helps though it was a real naitivity.

Thanks, I really appreciate your understanding. It was just to easy to misread it:)
It was real:eek: Just out of curiosity, where?

Zillah

I thought it was funny in an appropriately light hearted fashion. Plus we bash religion all the time, is there any sort of hard and fast rule about in what context its ok?

Asiaprod

Zillah wrote:

I thought it was funny in an appropriately light hearted fashion. Plus we bash religion all the time, is there any sort of hard and fast rule about in what context its ok?

No, its just common sense. I am very easy going as is my fellow mod. It takes a lot for me to issue warnings since I have great respect for the posters on this forum. The problem was not one of context, but that the post was not clear and was open to a different interpretation.

stevejazzx

Asiaprod wrote:

Thanks, I really appreciate your understanding. It was just to easy to misread it:)
It was real:eek: Just out of curiosity, where?

Oh..It was in a school in Naas

Nevyn

pixs please

Beruthiel

Asiaprod wrote:

but that the post was not clear and was open to a different interpretation.

You must have been hungover Asia, I got it straight off

Mangers do not upset me, live and let live - course it would be a different story if you came along and tried to set one up in my front garden.

Dades

Thaedydal wrote:

pixs please

"In other news, a man was arrested today for taking pictures of children outside a school in Naas. When questioned he told Gardai he required pictures of the Navity scene for upload to an specialised internet forum".

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

"In other news, a man was arrested today for taking pictures of children outside a school in Naas. When questioned he told Gardai he required pictures of the Navity scene for upload to an specialised internet forum".

lol

anywhoo, back on topic. I was thinking about the Dawkins interview thread running along side this one. Theists seem to get quite offended that atheists publically state that they don't believe any of the religious clap trap, and even more offended when atheists state that there are more mundane, less supernatural explanations for the things theists believe in.

It did get me thinking thought that if we as atheists should be allowed publically state these things, theists should also be allowed publically display their religion. It would be rather hypocritical of an atheists to claim that religious symbolism such as the Christmas tree and the nativity should be removed from public display, while also publically denouncing religion as being nonsense. And I personally would like to publically state that I believe religion is nonsense.

The only problem I have with religion in public is when people who are not of the same religious persuasion are forced to participate in the religious actions or otherwise exclude themselves from a group. I'm pretty much in line with the American idea of seperation of church and state and the idea that no one should have to remove themselves from a public event as the only alternative to participating in a religious action they don't believe in (this counters the religious rights idea that anyone who doesn't want to pray in schools can just leave the class room and stand in the hall until the prayer is over).

But no one is forcing me into accepting the nativity or participating in events based around the nativity. No one is asking me to pray in front of the nativity. I am free to ignore it, or simply apprecate it as a representation of an old western myth.

We can't really get upset simply because theism exists, and that some people hold to these beliefs, any more than we would expect theists to be annoyed that atheism exists and that some people are atheists.

Asiaprod

Beruthiel wrote:

You must have been hungover Asia, I got it straight off

Mangers do not upset me, live and let live - course it would be a different story if you came along and tried to set one up in my front garden.

And what a story.
I just had an interesting thing happen, My wife, my Buddhist Boss, came home this weekend in a heightened state of happiness having just bought a box of English Christmas cards in a sale. Perfect for sending to our family in Ireland, I was informed. Much to my dismay, what she had bought, was a box of christian christmas cards from a local church. It took a long time to explain that "would it not appear a little strange to the receivers that a buddhist was sending out christmas cards with blessings and prayers." I am still not sure she got it, I was reminded, again, that they were in a sale.
I'll just get her to sign my name for me, a buddhist backdoor so to speak.