[article] Bus and rail strike threatened by union

Navan Junction

Olivia Kelly, Irish Times, 28th Nov 2006

Thousands of commuters and shoppers could be left without public transport in the run-up to Christmas if the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) goes ahead with a threatened strike.

The NBRU has said it will seek a mandate from its members for industrial action if the Government does not extend the December 1st deadline for submissions on the proposed Dublin Transport Authority (DTA).

The unions's general secretary, Michael Faherty, said workers had been given the proposals less than two weeks ago, even though they had been with the Minister for Transport Martin Cullen since last March.

The NBRU had not been given time to properly consider the proposals and formulate a submission and had not received answers from the Department of Transport to requests for clarification, he said.

The DTA will have responsibility for transport in the Greater Dublin area, which includes Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, with control over strategic transport planning; procurement of public transport infrastructure and services; regulation of fares; delivery of an integrated public transport system; traffic management; demand management and data collection and research.

Mr Faherty said the union needed until at least January 1st to formulate a response.

A spokeswoman for Mr Cullen said he was flexible on the submissions deadline, but was anxious to publish the legislation before Christmas.

Champ

Not exactly uptodate with the DTA. Whats the union grievance with the DTA?

The DTA will have responsibility for transport in the Greater Dublin area, which includes Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, with control over strategic transport planning; procurement of public transport infrastructure and services; regulation of fares; delivery of an integrated public transport system; traffic management; demand management and data collection and research.

Seems like the DTA will be taking on duties which the transport department would normally handle... Is it the possibility that the DTA will look into providing additional transport providers... aka competition that has the union all worked up? If anything the threatened strike that would cripple public transport shows the need for such alternative providers to prevent the union from holding the public hostage to their demands.

John R

Champ wrote:

If anything the threatened strike that would cripple public transport shows the need for such alternative providers to prevent the union from holding the public hostage to their demands.

what makes you think that other operators will be any less unionised?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6164378.stm


TBH the details of the operation, powers and funding of the DTA is very important.

As their members employment will be effected by this the unions should be given enough time to make proper submissions before it is implemented.

However what about the public? I have heard nothing regards public consultation. Do the people who will have to live on a daily basis with the changes made not have a say in it?

Chris_533976

How about these unions just do the jobs their members are employed to do and quit threatening strikes on something so stupidly farcical as this??

Champ

what makes you think that other operators will be any less unionised?

Its not so much a question of unionised, but a question of having all your eggs in one basket. Outside of Dublin, bar a few private operators a lot of people only have Bus Eireann to rely on. Anytime Bus Eireann goes on strike, a lot of people have no alternatives except paying some expensive taxi fares.

With > 1 operator if 1 operator decides to go on strike, the others may not necessarily follow suit. Certainly preferable to the current situation whereby if the monopoly goes on strike then there is no service for the public whatsoever.

_Kaiser_

The usual bully-boy tactics from the unions and the only ones who suffer are the public that pay their wages. This won't affect the decision makers lads .. they all have cars or are chauffeured around anyway!

No doubt now all the DB/IE/CIE drivers and the rest of their supporters on this board will be on telling us that they have no choice but to strike etc, but newsflash kids - the average joe soap doesn't CARE about all this behind the scenes fighting. All they care about is that their bus/DART/train shows up and runs on schedule. And they won't be directing their anger to the union bosses or the politicians, they'll be directing it at YOU.

Not that it'll happen, but I'd call on all drivers and workers NOT to support the union if this strike goes ahead as the only ones who'll lose out will be you and the public.

Chris_533976 wrote:

How about these unions just do the jobs their members are employed to do and quit threatening strikes on something so stupidly farcical as this??

Quoted for truth.

dowlingm

obligatory...


STRIKE!

shltter

Chris_533976 wrote:

How about these unions just do the jobs their members are employed to do and quit threatening strikes on something so stupidly farcical as this??

Which part do you find farcical
That the Minister took 8 months before showing the proposals to the Unions
or that he expected them to have reviewed and made any submissions in 2 weeks.

The unions are doing their jobs they are representing their members their job is not to drive buses or trains

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

The usual bully-boy tactics from the unions and the only ones who suffer are the public that pay their wages. This won't affect the decision makers lads .. they all have cars or are chauffeured around anyway!

So your suggestion is that the unions should sabotage the Ministers car:rolleyes:

Kaiser2000 wrote:

No doubt now all the DB/IE/CIE drivers and the rest of their supporters on this board will be on telling us that they have no choice but to strike etc, but newsflash kids - the average joe soap doesn't CARE about all this behind the scenes fighting. All they care about is that their bus/DART/train shows up and runs on schedule. And they won't be directing their anger to the union bosses or the politicians, they'll be directing it at YOU.

Newsflash the behind the scenes fighting affects the average joe soap because it affects what kind of public transport service we are going to have
so you can bury your head in the sand and pretend that the only thing that is important is that the buses run today unfortunately this is the real world and decisions made now about the DTA are going to affect us all for years to come that is the travelling public and the transport workers

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Not that it'll happen, but I'd call on all drivers and workers NOT to support the union if this strike goes ahead as the only ones who'll lose out will be you and the public.

.

I would be more impressed if you called on the Minister to extend the deadline and make the proposals public so that the travelling public could also make submissions but it seems that you are happy to keep your head in the sand and rely on Cullen to get it right because after all he has a great track record:rolleyes:



There wont be a strike this is just how the DOT do business the unions request something the DOT says no because that is the default response no matter what the question is the Unions threaten strike.
The DOT waits to see how serious the unions are then says yes.
Its boring its tiring and personally Iam sick to the back teeth of it but it seems that it is some kind of ritual dance that we have to go through every December I can hardly remember a Christmas without the "threat" of Strike.
The newspapers must have that article pre written ready to go every December along with the articles on the A&E crisis and carnage on the roads

bk

DB/IE/CIE need to be careful about going on strike and remember the taxi drivers.

The taxi drivers went on strike, but it only ended up turning the public completely against them and ended up allowing the government do whatever they wanted to.

DB/IE/CIE striking might be exactly what the government want. I find that the general public has very little patience for strikes any more and would likely be counter productive, it might lead to calls from the general public to privatise them.

Chris_533976

shltter wrote:

Which part do you find farcical
That the Minister took 8 months before showing the proposals to the Unions
or that he expected them to have reviewed and made any submissions in 2 weeks.

The unions are doing their jobs they are representing their members their job is not to drive buses or trains

Granted, he should have given them the proposals much earlier. Its crazy. BUT the unions should say "Minister may we please have them, we havent got them and since the deadline is in two weeks we could do with them. Thanks "

Certainally not "GIVE US THE DAMN THINGS RIGHT NOW OR WE STRIKE".

Red Alert

If the unions have any cop on they will refuse to collect fares. That puts the ball in CIE's court, so they'll be the party pooper if there's no bus.

aliveandkicking

The proposals for the DTA is only a 51 page document. I read it myself in an hour. How long do the unions want to review it? Three weeks is not very long to draft a detailed submission but it is long enough IMO.

Or maybe this is the usual change is bad mantra from the unions.

I predict the next threatened strike will be just before the planned opening of Docklands station in March.

admiralofthefleet

is that brendan ogle still at that union, he would call a strike if the vending machine in cie was out of coca cola.
what are the chances of it going ahead and the hard pressed commuter being let down again

shltter

Chris_533976 wrote:

Granted, he should have given them the proposals much earlier. Its crazy. BUT the unions should say "Minister may we please have them, we havent got them and since the deadline is in two weeks we could do with them. Thanks "

Certainally not "GIVE US THE DAMN THINGS RIGHT NOW OR WE STRIKE".

You are presuming that this is the first interaction between the DOT and the NBRU.
Can you tell me what exactly the unions should do if they ask nicely and are told to **** off should they just accept it and say oh well we tried

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

The proposals for the DTA is only a 51 page document. I read it myself in an hour. How long do the unions want to review it? Three weeks is not very long to draft a detailed submission but it is long enough IMO.

Or maybe this is the usual change is bad mantra from the unions.

I predict the next threatened strike will be just before the planned opening of Docklands station in March.

And do you know the setup in the unions

How many people have to read it.
What meetings have to be organised
Are all of the relevant people available


It is a stupid comment to equate you reading a document in an hour and a Trade Union discussing the document getting the views of its members and formulating a response.
The request for the deadline to be put back one month is not unreasonable.

shltter

admiralgar wrote:

is that brendan ogle still at that union, he would call a strike if the vending machine in cie was out of coca cola.
what are the chances of it going ahead and the hard pressed commuter being let down again

Brendan Ogle was not in the NBRU he left SIPTU and set up the ILDA he is now an organiser with the ATGWU.
And what knowledge of Brendan Ogle do you have.
Have you ever met him have you ever discussed anything with him have you even read his book. Or are your opinions purely based on what you read in the gutter press about him.
Considering you don't even know what Union he represented my bet is that any bit of knowledge you have is based on the latter and as such means you know **** all

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

And do you know the setup in the unions

How many people have to read it.
What meetings have to be organised
Are all of the relevant people available


It is a stupid comment to equate you reading a document in an hour and a Trade Union discussing the document getting the views of its members and formulating a response.
The request for the deadline to be put back one month is not unreasonable.

3 weeks is enough time. Amazing how 3 weeks is no problem for all the other interested parties to make their submissions (RPA, DTO, DCC, Fingal CC, SDCC, DLRCC, etc.) but not for the NBRU :rolleyes:

DerekP11

shltter wrote:

There wont be a strike this is just how the DOT do business the unions request something the DOT says no because that is the default response no matter what the question is the Unions threaten strike.
The DOT waits to see how serious the unions are then says yes.
Its boring its tiring and personally Iam sick to the back teeth of it but it seems that it is some kind of ritual dance that we have to go through every December I can hardly remember a Christmas without the "threat" of Strike.
The newspapers must have that article pre written ready to go every December along with the articles on the A&E crisis and carnage on the roads

But of course its not the unions fault at all and their response of "strike action" isn't outdated and obviously the most professional response they could muster? You're having a laugh schltter.

Ive a piece of advice for you. The DOT have an agenda. Transport unions have an agenda. Public transport staff probably have an agenda too. So I suggest you deal with the opinions of public transport users,like those expressed here and on other forums, because we have an agenda too and it starts with service expectation. We should all be able to play this merry game. Since I was a kid, Ive grown up watching passengers get shafted by Government, CIE, strikes and believe it or not Staff. Try accepting some opinion instead of defending the fortress that you find yourself in.

Anyone can make a submission before friday. Click this link and the details are at the bottom of the press release. So get crackin! The most important part of any submission from people like us should be to call for user representation mechanisms on the DTA. For donkeys years users have been excluded from the decision making process. Is it really unrealistic for us to finally demand a say in all of this?

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=8466&lang=ENG&loc=1887

admiralofthefleet

shltter wrote:

Brendan Ogle was not in the NBRU he left SIPTU and set up the ILDA he is now an organiser with the ATGWU.
And what knowledge of Brendan Ogle do you have.
Have you ever met him have you ever discussed anything with him have you even read his book. Or are your opinions purely based on what you read in the gutter press about him.
Considering you don't even know what Union he represented my bet is that any bit of knowledge you have is based on the latter and as such means you know **** all

there is no need to be so rude, i was sure he/possibly you was in the nbru.

shltter

DerekP11 wrote:

But of course its not the unions fault at all and their response of "strike action" isn't outdated and obviously the most professional response they could muster? You're having a laugh schltter.

Ive a piece of advice for you. The DOT have an agenda. Transport unions have an agenda. Public transport staff probably have an agenda too. So I suggest you deal with the opinions of public transport users,like those expressed here and on other forums, because we have an agenda too and it starts with service expectation. We should all be able to play this merry game. Since I was a kid, Ive grown up watching passengers get shafted by Government, CIE, strikes and believe it or not Staff. Try accepting some opinion instead of defending the fortress that you find yourself in.

Anyone can make a submission before friday. Click this link and the details are at the bottom of the press release. So get crackin! The most important part of any submission from people like us should be to call for user representation mechanisms on the DTA. For donkeys years users have been excluded from the decision making process. Is it really unrealistic for us to finally demand a say in all of this?

Ok so enlighten me what aspect of this is the unions fault

Should they have used ESP to find out what the proposals were before the Minister was ready to tell them
Should they make a 2 week rushed submission to keep you happy

It is games the Unions play them the DOT play them and CIE play them this particular game is the DOTs they deliberately left it late then we have to go through this charade of threatened strikes etc.
I have seen it all before and it is very boring


BTW since strike action is outdated what is your enlightened suggestion as to what they should have done.
We all know that the chances of this leading to strike action are tiny it is about getting attention and putting pressure on the DOT to grant an extension the members have not even been balloted yet nevermind anything else.

shltter

admiralgar wrote:

there is no need to be so rude, i was sure he/possibly you was in the nbru.

I am being rude but what you can say what you like about a named individual who you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

My suggestion is that you go here buy the book

http://www.currach.ie/catalogue.php?&ISBN=1-85607-906-6

And at least attempt to educate yourself about him before you start making insulting comments about him

DerekP11

shltter wrote:

Ok so enlighten me what aspect of this is the unions fault

Should they have used ESP to find out what the proposals were before the Minister was ready to tell them
Should they make a 2 week rushed submission to keep you happy

It is games the Unions play them the DOT play them and CIE play them this particular game is the DOTs they deliberately left it late then we have to go through this charade of threatened strikes etc.
I have seen it all before and it is very boring


BTW since strike action is outdated what is your enlightened suggestion as to what they should have done.
We all know that the chances of this leading to strike action are tiny it is about getting attention and putting pressure on the DOT to grant an extension the members have not even been balloted yet nevermind anything else.

The fact that the NBRU threatened strike action in relation to this matter is their fault. They said it. It is emdemic of why Irish public transport users are so negative to your cause schltter and why you find little sympathy.

I never asked that the NBRU make a rushed submission to, "keep me happy", as you put it. But I don't think public transport users should be threatened with a strike either, whether its a "game" or not.

As for my "enlightened suggestion"? I don't remember claiming to be "enlightened". I don't have to be enlightened or privvy to the games your union (or not) play with the DOT. All I want, like thousands of other "customers" and a heck of a lot of them are your customers, is the ability to avail of an efficient public transport system and the right to comment and/or criticise it (and all its players) without having to subscribe to the contribution of a very defensive NBRU (or not) publicist like you.

Once again, I suggest that you are doing yourself no favours by your attitude to posts here. Ive stated in other threads that I respect the job you have to do and I really and truly think you should at least attempt to understand the frustration of passengers who bother to commit time to contributing here. There are thousands who don't and a few who try to represent them. But try to take on board that in 21st century Ireland, a lot of public transport users are sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** that has permeated public transport for generations and do want to make a stand, even if its an internet forum.

John R

admiralgar wrote:

there is no need to be so rude, i was sure he/possibly you was in the nbru.

Rude?

The only rude post here was yours. Do you think it is acceptable to make ignorant and offensive comments about an individual you clearly know NOTHING about?

Unlike shltter I won't bother suggesting you read up on topics you are ignorant of, TBH I reckon it is a waste of time. Instead I suggest you simply refrain from making comments about people and events you do not know or understand.

John R

DerekP11 wrote:

The fact that the NBRU threatened strike action in relation to this matter is their fault. They said it. It is emdemic of why Irish public transport users are so negative to your cause schltter and why you find little sympathy.

Derek, I believe you are well enough informed to know that there is a world of difference between the union threatening action and a real likelihood of strikes taking place.

Shltter is correct about it being part of the game played between unions and government, particularly in this sector.

Not for one minute am I suggesting that any of this is a reasonable way to go about business but that is the way thing are done ATM.

Blaming the unions alone for the way the "system" works is also rather myopic. They are far from blameless but are still only one cog in a large and very warped machine.

DerekP11 wrote:

Once again, I suggest that you are doing yourself no favours by your attitude to posts here. Ive stated in other threads that I respect the job you have to do and I really and truly think you should at least attempt to understand the frustration of passengers who bother to commit time to contributing here. There are thousands who don't and a few who try to represent them. But try to take on board that in 21st century Ireland, a lot of public transport users are sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** that has permeated public transport for generations and do want to make a stand, even if its an internet forum.

I applaud people who take a stand in trying to improve things but all too often the pervading opinions of those passengers are based on incorrect and ignorant opinions.

The pervasive view amongst many that the unions and particularly the unionised front-line workers are the root of all evil in CIE is simply wrong.

When those justifiably angry transport users make a stand based on those incorrect views the demands they make are not only targeted at the wrong people but are often a step in the wrong direction for our transport network.

SeanW

semi-rhetorical question: When are the Luas drivers going on strike?

shltter

DerekP11 wrote:

The fact that the NBRU threatened strike action in relation to this matter is their fault. They said it. It is emdemic of why Irish public transport users are so negative to your cause schltter and why you find little sympathy.

I never asked that the NBRU make a rushed submission to, "keep me happy", as you put it. But I don't think public transport users should be threatened with a strike either, whether its a "game" or not.

As for my "enlightened suggestion"? I don't remember claiming to be "enlightened". I don't have to be enlightened or privvy to the games your union (or not) play with the DOT. All I want, like thousands of other "customers" and a heck of a lot of them are your customers, is the ability to avail of an efficient public transport system and the right to comment and/or criticise it (and all its players) without having to subscribe to the contribution of a very defensive NBRU (or not) publicist like you.

Once again, I suggest that you are doing yourself no favours by your attitude to posts here. Ive stated in other threads that I respect the job you have to do and I really and truly think you should at least attempt to understand the frustration of passengers who bother to commit time to contributing here. There are thousands who don't and a few who try to represent them. But try to take on board that in 21st century Ireland, a lot of public transport users are sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** that has permeated public transport for generations and do want to make a stand, even if its an internet forum.

So you have nothing only criticism

It is easy to say that this or that is outdated but you have no single clue as to what the alternative is.

It is easy to come here and say this is wrong when you are not faced by the same situation and have no idea what alternative is available.


I dont give a **** if you think I am doing myself favours or not

I am sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** but it goes on and you have to deal with it. The NBRU cannot stick it head in the sand and pretend that the deadline will go away if they don't think about it.
Do you think that anyone in CIE wants to go on strike about something so stupid.

You dont think that the NBRU should be forced to make a rushed submission to a proposal that has been sitting on Cullens desk for the last 8 months but you don't think that the NBRU should threaten strike either.
But hang on if you read the article then you realise that what Mick Faherty said was that they would look for a Mandate for INDUSTRIAL ACTION if the deadline was not extended (note industrial action Not strike)
Then you read the last line at it says

A spokeswoman for Mr Cullen said he was flexible on the submissions deadline, but was anxious to publish the legislation before Christmas.

So it is a non story the union wants 4 weeks the minister seems to be offering 3 straight off and says he is flexible but anxious not it must be published by december 25 but he is anxious to have it published by then.

My reading is that the DOT were playing hard ball on the date the unions cry Industrial action and the DOT softens it may not be pretty it may not be the way grown ups should behave but it works and **** all else does.
So unfortunately until public transport is taken away from the DOT this is likely the way it is going to be.
BTW I find it equally frustrating that negotiations between the Minister and the unions have to be conducted through a journalist in the Irish times but I would find it more frustrating if my representatives sat on their hands and did nothing in case they upset the travelling public.
I believe that there is an agenda in the DOT and that you and most of the people here are falling right for it in that you are not looking at the issue but only at the possible industrial action. I understand that it is from a purely selfish point of view in that the industrial action will affect you but if you look at it from a purely selfish view then why criticise the unions for looking at it from their selfish view point.
No one here has asked why the Minister sat on the proposals for 8 months and then gives the unions 2 weeks to look at them.


Besides which there is not going to be any strike it is a non story move on

aliveandkicking

Why is it only the NBRU who have a problem with this deadline? There are many other interested party's making submissions but we have not heard any of them complaining about the December 1st deadline.

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

Besides which there is not going to be any strike it is a non story move on

You are right, it was a non story however the NBRU have made it into a story by threatening industrial action. Only themselves to blame for the negative publicity generated.

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

You are right, it was a non story however the NBRU have made it into a story by threatening industrial action. Only themselves to blame for the negative publicity generated.

No it only became a non story once the threat was made if the NBRU had sat on their hands then the 1st of December deadline would have remained.
I am waiting for anyone here to suggest another way the NBRU could have handled this in the time frame available.

And Trade Unions have long ago given up on trying to be popular it is not their job to get you to like them it is their job to represent their members interest and that is what they were doing.

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

Why is it only the NBRU who have a problem with this deadline? There are many other interested party's making submissions but we have not heard any of them complaining about the December 1st deadline.

The NBRU is the only union in the CIE group of unions that is not a member of the ICTU and therefore is not bound in the same manner to the terms of the National pay deals.
Other unions like SIPTU although they may be just as unhappy can threaten nothing with out the say so of the big wigs in Liberty Hall as was demonstrated recently when Liberty Hall called of an action by its branch in Aer lingus.

And just because you have not heard them does not mean they are not making any noise a tree falls in the forest and all that

aliveandkicking

How about issuing a press release appealing to the minister to extend the deadline because the NBRU would be making a detailed submission which would take time to draft. You could put a spin on the story painting the NBRU in good light and the minister/DOT in bad light. Instead of this we got the usual "if we don't get what we want we're going on strike" baloney from the NBRU. Threatening industrial action always seems to be the first option not the last from the NBRU.

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

And just because you have not heard them does not mean they are not making any noise a tree falls in the forest and all that

Maybe because they air their grievances in a modern professional manner rather than throwing their toys out of the pram and threaten industrial action.

bk

aliveandkicking wrote:

How about issuing a press release appealing to the minister to extend the deadline because the NBRU would be making a detailed submission which would take time to draft. You could put a spin on the story painting the NBRU in good light and the minister/DOT in bad light. Instead of this we got the usual "if we don't get what we want we're going on strike" baloney from the NBRU. Threatening industrial action always seems to be the first option not the last from the NBRU.

Exactly, every time most of the general public hear strike, they lose any and all sympathy for the bus drivers etc. and they start thinking that privatising bus routes sounds like a great idea.

The NBRU need to find out ways of negotiating other then strikes and they need to learn from the examples of the taxi driver strikes that achieved absolutey nothing other then to antagonise the general public.

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

Maybe because they air their grievances in a modern professional manner rather than throwing their toys out of the pram and threaten industrial action.

No because they are not allowed to air their greivances or they get their hand smacked by head office.

But I would be interested in what exactly this modern professional manner is because I am still waiting on someone to point out the alternative to what the NBRU did

The NBRU ask for an extension the DOT says NO
The NBRU says pretty please with sugar on top the DOT says NO
The NBRU says pretty pretty please the DOT says NO
All the while the deadline is approaching
So come on what should the NBRU do next
What modern professional manner should they adopt please tell me I am dying to hear what your ideas are.
I could have a word with the lads in Parnell Square and see if they can't find a place for you at the next meeting with Martin Cullen so you could bring your modern professional manner to bear on him while they play with their rattlers:rolleyes:

BTW I believe that Liam Tobin is retiring soon so their might be an opening for you to show them the error of their ways and how it should be done in a modern professional way.

shltter

bk wrote:

Exactly, every time most of the general public hear strike, they lose any and all sympathy for the bus drivers etc. and they start thinking that privatising bus routes sounds like a great idea.

The NBRU need to find out ways of negotiating other then strikes and they need to learn from the examples of the taxi driver strikes that achieved absolutey nothing other then to antagonise the general public.

So same question to you how do you negotiate with someone who wont negotiate back.

Tell us exactly in detail what the NBRU should have done.

You see the problem here is that the first that any of you hear about any of this stuff is when the word industrial action is mentioned.
So you automatically jump to the conclusion that this is the NBRUs first option
Well here is a newsflash for you all it is the last option when nothing else has worked and all you get is a brick wall.
Industrial action is a last resort do you think the NBRU have been sitting around doing nothing and then 3 days before the deadline decide that they wont have the submission on time and look for an extension.
They have looked and looked and looked for an extension and the DOT said NO NO NO that the deadline had to be kept. Finally 3 days to go and they mention industrial action and the deadline is a movable feast.

Second newsflash

NO ONE I repeat NO ONE in CIE wants to be on strike especially on the lead up to christmas we have families and mortgages as well and we cant afford to lose pay the same as most people.

There seems to be this opinion that some how you believe that people want to strike well it is obvious that none of you have ever been on strike because if you had you would know how difficult it is.It is not something that anyone does lightly particularly those of us who have young children and Mortgages.


BTW anyone that thinks privatising buses will get rid of strikes must be as thick as 2 short planks and the situation in the UK has obviously passed them by

just this week

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6164378.stm

bk

shltter wrote:

So same question to you how do you negotiate with someone who wont negotiate back.

Tell us exactly in detail what the NBRU should have done.

Well first of all I think three weeks is plenty of time to submit a reply. It isn't like you didn't know it was coming or what it was likely to say.

As aliveandkicking said spin it and embarrass the government. That is almost exactly what the county councils just did with getting an extension to the electoral register.

shltter wrote:

You see the problem here is that the first that any of you hear about any of this stuff is when the word industrial action is mentioned.
So you automatically jump to the conclusion that this is the NBRUs first option
Well here is a newsflash for you all it is the last option when nothing else has worked and all you get is a brick wall.
Industrial action is a last resort do you think the NBRU have been sitting around doing nothing and then 3 days before the deadline decide that they wont have the submission on time and look for an extension.
They have looked and looked and looked for an extension and the DOT said NO NO NO that the deadline had to be kept. Finally 3 days to go and they mention industrial action and the deadline is a movable feast.

Yada, yada, all of this is irrelevant because in the end all the public hear is strike and all they do is get annoyed at you and resentful and you lose any public good will.

It is a bit like the boy who called wolf. Eventually when you need to call a strike for something that is really important, the public will be so fed up with it that they won't give a toss, they will side with the government and will eventually call for privatisation.

shltter wrote:

Second newsflash

NO ONE I repeat NO ONE in CIE wants to be on strike especially on the lead up to christmas we have families and mortgages as well and we cant afford to lose pay the same as most people.

There seems to be this opinion that some how you believe that people want to strike well it is obvious that none of you have ever been on strike because if you had you would know how difficult it is.It is not something that anyone does lightly particularly those of us who have young children and Mortgages.

Can you hear that? It is thousands of tiny little violins playing.

Try working in the private sector for awhile where you can be fired at pretty much any time.

Champ

Try working in the private sector for awhile where you can be fired at pretty much any time.

Directly put;)

As time progresses the work environment is liable to change where there's normally two distinct options:
(A) Adapt
(B) Find another job

I only have private sector experience to go on, but if (A) is not viable for whatever reason i always go for (B).
E.g. if my salary expectations aren't been met by my boss therefore (A) isn't go to suffice for me i immediately inact (B) which is bluntly put "Bye, bye i'll find another company that pays better".
As opposed to forming a union and striking and potentially ruining the company thereby wrecking employment prospects there.

Why won't the union members who support the proposed strike do likewise?
No one is forcing them to work in their particular jobs.

It is a bit like the boy who called wolf. Eventually when you need to call a strike for something that is really important, the public will be so fed up with it that they won't give a toss, they will side with the government and will eventually call for privatisation.

I can directly relate to this. After two unoffical strikes in Limerick in the past months:
(1) Over a printed roster.
(2) Over Kavanagh & Sons running an illegeal Limerick - Shannon route(which Bus Eireann usually had a monopoly on). I still can't understand what was the purpose of striking here over the actions of another company??? All it did was give K & S more revenue (and demand) for this illegeal route. Its not like Bus Eireann reps can kick down the HQ door to K & S and demand that they stop?

shltter

bk wrote:

Well first of all I think three weeks is plenty of time to submit a reply. It isn't like you didn't know it was coming or what it was likely to say.

And you know what about the internal structures of the NBRU
It is a National orgainisation whose executive members come from all over the country they are also holding down full time jobs as Bus Drivers Train Drivers etc

bk wrote:

As aliveandkicking said spin it and embarrass the government. That is almost exactly what the county councils just did with getting an extension to the electoral register.

First of the county councils spun nothing the Sunday Tribune have been banging on the electoral register issue for months so media pressure combined with opposition pressure forced Dick Roche to change
It would be a cold day in hell before the media or opposition take the side of the Unions in anything in this country

bk wrote:

Yada, yada, all of this is irrelevant because in the end all the public hear is strike and all they do is get annoyed at you and resentful and you lose any public good will.

No it is relevant you just dont want to hear it
Second if we were to rely just on public good will then we would win nothing anyway.
You are under the misguided impression that it is public opinion that wins disputes it is not.

It is funny though in that you advise the unions to use spin ( we will gloss over how naive that it is expecting the media to allow themselves to be used by trade union to spin anything) but when I try to explain the issue your answer is yadayadayada.
The truth is that people dont give a **** about the situation until it is likely to affect them directly end of story

bk wrote:

It is a bit like the boy who called wolf. Eventually when you need to call a strike for something that is really important, the public will be so fed up with it that they won't give a toss, they will side with the government and will eventually call for privatisation.

No there is no calling or crying wolf if it is needed then there will be industrial action no doubt about it. In my opinion it wont come to that but if it is needed then it will happen.
And guess what this is really important as it is about the regulatory framework for public Transport in the Greater Dublin area.
Again you are under the misguided impression that public opinion is the deciding factor it is not it helps but at the end of the day it is only one aspect not the only one.

bk wrote:

Can you hear that? It is thousands of tiny little violins playing.

Try working in the private sector for awhile where you can be fired at pretty much any time.

Didn't ask for nor do i want your sympathy I was merely pointing out that we dont want to go on strike it is not a great thing but if we have to we will.

Again you reveal how little you know about CIE
In the last month 6 drivers from my garage have been sacked Dublin Bus is no different to any other company.

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

No there is no calling or crying wolf if it is needed then there will be industrial action no doubt about it. In my opinion it wont come to that but if it is needed then it will happen.

You don't seem to get it. You and your union have to wake up and realise that you are operating in the PUBLIC service and threatening to go on strike and deny the public a service is simply unacceptable in the 21st Century, do you get that UNACCEPTABLE. Ultimately you are using the public in your games with the DOT which can no longer be considered an option by your union. When is the NBRU going to learn that they cannot hold the public to ransom anymore? It has to stop - most other unions in this country have moved with the times and strikes are a rare occurance but yet in CIE there are still at least 3 or 4 threatened strikes a year. Yes I know CIE management are buffoons and the NBRU do have genuine grievances but realise this going on strike is no longer acceptable to the public. You must find other ways of negotiation. It's worked in most other industries - time to make it work in CIE too.

And you know what about the internal structures of the NBRU
It is a National orgainisation whose executive members come from all over the country they are also holding down full time jobs as Bus Drivers Train Drivers etc

Do you know what, I couldn't give a flying f*** what the internal structures of the NBRU are. They knew from the day it was published they had 3 full weeks to respond. 3 weeks is a reasonable timeframe, if the NBRU have a problem responding within 3 weeks, that's the NBRU's fault nobody elses. If the NBRU's internal structures are so antiquated that they can't come up with a submission within 3 weeks maybe it's time to change them instead of threatening to hold the public to ransom once more.

And guess what this is really important as it is about the regulatory framework for public Transport in the Greater Dublin area.

I agree with you it is really important but having read the document I can see nothing put positives in it even for present day CIE workers such as yourself. Your managers will in future have to answer to a proactive DTA rather than a benign DOT so it might actually make CIE managers buck up. I don't see a lot for the NBRU to worry about.

MrPudding

shltter wrote:

And do you know the setup in the unions

How many people have to read it.

Maybe they could photocopy it and more than one person could read it at a time?

MrP

bk

I was going to respond to you shltter, but aliveandkicking response is exactly what I was going to say.

1) I (and I'm sure the rest of the general public) couldn't care less about the internal structure of the NRBU.

2) Striking is simply unacceptable in a modern, productive 21st century society.

The days of mass support for strikes are gone, rightly or wrongly people are too busy working and being productive. If you inconvenience them or make them less productive by striking, they won't thank you, they will simply call for you to be replaced by cheaper alternative private firms.

3) I've read the DTA and it seems to be completely positive for the general population, remember your customers.

Calling for strikes does nothing but strengthen the calls from PD/FF for privatisation of bus routes, etc.

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

You don't seem to get it. You and your union have to wake up and realise that you are operating in the PUBLIC service and threatening to go on strike and deny the public a service is simply unacceptable in the 21st Century, do you get that UNACCEPTABLE. Ultimately you are using the public in your games with the DOT which can no longer be considered an option by your union. When is the NBRU going to learn that they cannot hold the public to ransom anymore? It has to stop - most other unions in this country have moved with the times and strikes are a rare occurance but yet in CIE there are still at least 3 or 4 threatened strikes a year. Yes I know CIE management are buffoons and the NBRU do have genuine grievances but realise this going on strike is no longer acceptable to the public. You must find other ways of negotiation. It's worked in most other industries - time to make it work in CIE too.

You don"t seem to get it that industrial action while you may find it unacceptable is perfectly acceptable.
If a union gives away its right to use industrial action it completely emasculates itself without that power then the unions are completely powerless.
Take a look at the Nurses for example until recently nurses did not use their right to withdraw their labour and look what happened to them they were treated like **** only when they stood up for themselves did anyone start to take them seriously.
In any negotiations between unions and employers even the National pay deal the threat of industrial action is always there it does not have to be said because everyone understands that it is there that is why the employers take part if a union said that it would not use or threaten to use industrial action why would anyone talk to them.

The prove of this is that the DOT changed its position yesterday as soon as the threat was made therefor the threat served its purpose up until the threat was made the DOT just ignored the unions just as they would if the NBRU would not or could not threaten industrial action.

aliveandkicking wrote:

Do you know what, I couldn't give a flying f*** what the internal structures of the NBRU are. They knew from the day it was published they had 3 full weeks to respond. 3 weeks is a reasonable timeframe, if the NBRU have a problem responding within 3 weeks, that's the NBRU's fault nobody elses. If the NBRU's internal structures are so antiquated that they can't come up with a submission within 3 weeks maybe it's time to change them instead of threatening to hold the public to ransom once more.

You know what I could not give a flying **** what think the union says that they have not had enough time I agree with them you dont so what.
They are getting more time end of discussion the fact that you think 3 weeks is plenty is irrelevant if they had 5 minutes to come up with a submission there are people here that would argue (probably yourself included) that was long enough.
If the Minister really wanted to have the legislation published before Christmas then he should have published the proposals earlier he has had them since March which basically means that it took the DOT 8 months to consider the document that they expect everyone else to consider in 3 weeks.

aliveandkicking wrote:

I agree with you it is really important but having read the document I can see nothing put positives in it even for present day CIE workers such as yourself. Your managers will in future have to answer to a proactive DTA rather than a benign DOT so it might actually make CIE managers buck up. I don't see a lot for the NBRU to worry about.

That is not the issue at the moment the NBRU have not said whether they agree disagree or neither of the above with the proposals what they have said is that they need time to discuss them and formulate a response.

shltter

bk wrote:

I was going to respond to you shltter, but aliveandkicking response is exactly what I was going to say.

1) I (and I'm sure the rest of the general public) couldn't care less about the internal structure of the NRBU.

2) Striking is simply unacceptable in a modern, productive 21st century society.

The days of mass support for strikes are gone, rightly or wrongly people are too busy working and being productive. If you inconvenience them or make them less productive by striking, they won't thank you, they will simply call for you to be replaced by cheaper alternative private firms.

3) I've read the DTA and it seems to be completely positive for the general population, remember your customers.

Calling for strikes does nothing but strengthen the calls from PD/FF for privatisation of bus routes, etc.

You can say that strikes are unacceptable till the cows come home but they are a reality of life no matter who runs the public transport system public or private.

I dont expect you to care about the internal structures of the NBRU the point was that it is a large organisation with members spread across the country who as well as being elected representatives are also holding down full time jobs.
While a response from an individual might easily be done in 3 weeks a considered response of a national organisation takes a little longer.

Again you presume that public support is the be all and end all it is not it is not a popularity contest get over it.

Again the DTA proposals are not the issue yet

And yet again we are not afraid of threats of privatisation we have seen it all before and if it comes to it we will still be unionised and there will still be strikes no matter who owns or operates the buses and trains. That is the very simple lesson from the UK or indeed from New York where despite the fact that it is illegal a strike still went ahead last December.

shltter

MrPudding wrote:

Maybe they could photocopy it and more than one person could read it at a time?

MrP

The point is that the NBRU is a NAtional organisation. meeting have to be organised opinions sought and a considered response that represents the views of its members made. It is not the same as an individual formulating their own response.

DerekP11

John R wrote:

Derek, I believe you are well enough informed to know that there is a world of difference between the union threatening action and a real likelihood of strikes taking place.

Shltter is correct about it being part of the game played between unions and government, particularly in this sector.

Not for one minute am I suggesting that any of this is a reasonable way to go about business but that is the way thing are done ATM.

Blaming the unions alone for the way the "system" works is also rather myopic. They are far from blameless but are still only one cog in a large and very warped machine.




I applaud people who take a stand in trying to improve things but all too often the pervading opinions of those passengers are based on incorrect and ignorant opinions.

The pervasive view amongst many that the unions and particularly the unionised front-line workers are the root of all evil in CIE is simply wrong.

When those justifiably angry transport users make a stand based on those incorrect views the demands they make are not only targeted at the wrong people but are often a step in the wrong direction for our transport network.

John, I do know how they play their game, but joe public standing at the 51 bus stop in Clondalkin or a DART station in Raheny, Shankhill or Bray doesn't. Nor does the passenger standing on a platform in Athlone. The list goes on.

For the record, Im not advocating that unions are the sole cause of problems. I am a staunch critic of CIE management in particular IE and the Government and believe it or not even the opposition. I am merely pointing out this unions poor contribution to the process.

I don't speak for everyone, but from my own organisations point of view, we deem the union aspects within the CIE group as problematic. We also criticise IE management in how they deal with it. Our own forum was the first to reveal the real cause of the last rail strike in May, which wasn't actually a rail strike at all. More a "sexed up" lock out of Cork train drivers advocated by IEs human resources dept. In all media appearances that I did in relation to it, I was critical of IE management, based on the information available.

In general Irish public transport users are critical of strikes and rightly so. It has been a characteristic for too many years. The perception is embedded. However, what an individual thinks is vastly different to what an organisation thinks and promotes and I would like to think that P11 has been as responsible as possible in relation to its official comment on union issues in IE. At the end of the day, my own personal concern is the cause of the user. The intricate workings of union/management/Government are an item that P11tries to decipher on their behalf.

DerekP11

shltter wrote:

So you have nothing only criticism

It is easy to say that this or that is outdated but you have no single clue as to what the alternative is.

It is easy to come here and say this is wrong when you are not faced by the same situation and have no idea what alternative is available.


I dont give a **** if you think I am doing myself favours or not

I am sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** but it goes on and you have to deal with it. The NBRU cannot stick it head in the sand and pretend that the deadline will go away if they don't think about it.
Do you think that anyone in CIE wants to go on strike about something so stupid.

You dont think that the NBRU should be forced to make a rushed submission to a proposal that has been sitting on Cullens desk for the last 8 months but you don't think that the NBRU should threaten strike either.
But hang on if you read the article then you realise that what Mick Faherty said was that they would look for a Mandate for INDUSTRIAL ACTION if the deadline was not extended (note industrial action Not strike)
Then you read the last line at it says



So it is a non story the union wants 4 weeks the minister seems to be offering 3 straight off and says he is flexible but anxious not it must be published by december 25 but he is anxious to have it published by then.

My reading is that the DOT were playing hard ball on the date the unions cry Industrial action and the DOT softens it may not be pretty it may not be the way grown ups should behave but it works and **** all else does.
So unfortunately until public transport is taken away from the DOT this is likely the way it is going to be.
BTW I find it equally frustrating that negotiations between the Minister and the unions have to be conducted through a journalist in the Irish times but I would find it more frustrating if my representatives sat on their hands and did nothing in case they upset the travelling public.
I believe that there is an agenda in the DOT and that you and most of the people here are falling right for it in that you are not looking at the issue but only at the possible industrial action. I understand that it is from a purely selfish point of view in that the industrial action will affect you but if you look at it from a purely selfish view then why criticise the unions for looking at it from their selfish view point.
No one here has asked why the Minister sat on the proposals for 8 months and then gives the unions 2 weeks to look at them.


Besides which there is not going to be any strike it is a non story move on

Quite frankly, you still refuse to recognise the role and rights of the user in all of this. Perhaps its that very attitude that runs from Kildare street to O'Connell street and then over to Connolly station. After its been assimilated, its obviously transferred to some staff on the ground. Customer service in CIE comes way down the list after "management awards" and the "Im alright now, jack" philosophy of some staff.

I never said I didn't know an alternative to this charade. All I said was I never claimed to be enlightened. But you know schltter, maybe I am enlightened, maybe I have an alternative, but it sure as hell won't make its debut here. As for the DOTs agenda? Yea sure of course they have one and it applies to a lot more than just the issue of the DTA. But that has nothing to do with the core issue of this thread and the threat of "INDUSTRIAL ACTION" by the NBRU. Don't forget the union agenda either or the management agenda. Oh and while your thinking about it, try to at least begin to comprehend any fashion of customer agenda. This is an agenda that is still in its infancy and one that deserves a hearing after years of your industries monotonous crap. There's plenty of food on the table schltter, so how about a seat at the table for the real forgotten entity in all the "government/management/union/staff" circus baloney? Who's that forgotten entity again? Oh yeah...the customer.

MrPudding

DerekP11 wrote:

Who's that forgotten entity again? Oh yeah...the customer.

That is the irritating thing in all this. We, the customer, seem to be an annoyance getting the way of the good workers making a few quid and having a cushy job.

I have worked in a number of industries and in none of them would the behaviour that we see from the unions here be acceptable.

MrP

John R

It is really pointless in continuing with the tit-for-tat posts, none of you are going to change each other's opinions on the matter. There is some truth to both sides and a lot of intrenched views.

The person who wrote this article got what they wanted, a minor squabble over internal politics turned into a public scare story where there really was no chance of the scare becoming a reality. Excellent gutter journalism.


Now if you are all so interested in the future of transport provision and the rights of the customer have any of you done as DerekP11 suggested here by reading the report and making a submission?

bk wrote:

3) I've read the DTA and it seems to be completely positive for the general population, remember your customers.

aliveandkicking wrote:

I agree with you it is really important but having read the document I can see nothing put positives in it even for present day CIE workers such as yourself. Your managers will in future have to answer to a proactive DTA rather than a benign DOT so it might actually make CIE managers buck up. I don't see a lot for the NBRU to worry about.

Maybe you should read it again because I have read it and can see a few big problems there.

Firstly, as Derek points out the important topic of user representation mechanisms is absent.

There is no provision in it for user groups of any kind to be given a proper voice. There should be a set up for proper and constant feedback on proposals and policies in the decision making stage. There are a number of statutory fixtures in the report for any number of interested groups and individuals across the whole gamut of government, professional, trade and academic groups but not one avenue of direct input for actual transport users.

The only area of customer input is through a brief mention of third party surveys which is not nearly good enough IMO.

The second and potentially even bigger problem with the report is the fudge in its proposals for dealing with private bus operations.

The overall tone of the report is misleading, it gives the strong impression that the DTA will have overall control over all surface transport. This is true regarding all rail opreations and CIE bus services. It is most certainly not the case regarding private licenced bus operators where the DTA will have almost no control whatsoever.

DTA report wrote:

Private Operators of Public Transport Bus Services
The Team has proposed above that the Minister for Transport should continue to licence
private operators of public transport bus services in the GDA under the 1932 Road Transport
Act, pending enactment of separate amending legislation. The Team has also recommended
that the Dublin Transport Authority should procure and operate integrated ticketing and
information systems for public transport and that it should have powers to require participation
in both these systems by all providers (including private bus operators). This would include
powers for the Authority, inter alia, to require the installation of equipment or the provision by
private bus operators of information on routes and services for use in an integrated information
system.
Pending new legislation to amend the 1932 Road Transport Act, it is clear that the key
relationship for private bus operators will be with the Minister for Transport. The Dublin
Transport Authority will also establish a relationship with them, simply to govern their
participation in integrated ticketing and information systems. This will ensure that private
operators also will form part of the integrated public transport network in the GDA.

What this means is that apart from the integrated ticketing and information systems all private operators will be free to carry on independent of any oversight as is now the case.

They will still be able to apply for licences (presumably still exclusive licences that ban any other operator private or state from those routes) to the DoT over the head of the DTA.

They will still be able to run whatever timetables they please even if that means Mon-Fri peak only services to the exclusion of the needs of all other users.

They will still be able to set their own fares as they please without regard to the DTA policy.

They will still be able to pull services as and where they like (while still holding a valid licence) without the DTA being able to force them to do otherwise or even contract in another operator to replace them.

Wishbone Ash

shltter wrote:

until recently nurses did not use their right to withdraw their labour and look what happened to them they were treated like **** only when they stood up for themselves did anyone start to take them seriously

That would be true of General nurses and Midwives. However, Psychiatric nurses do occasionally utilise their mandate to strike when necessary.

shltter

John R wrote:

It is really pointless in continuing with the tit-for-tat posts, none of you are going to change each other's opinions on the matter. There is some truth to both sides and a lot of intrenched views.

The person who wrote this article got what they wanted, a minor squabble over internal politics turned into a public scare story where there really was no chance of the scare becoming a reality. Excellent gutter journalism.


Now if you are all so interested in the future of transport provision and the rights of the customer have any of you done as DerekP11 suggested here by reading the report and making a submission?





Maybe you should read it again because I have read it and can see a few big problems there.

Firstly, as Derek points out the important topic of user representation mechanisms is absent.

There is no provision in it for user groups of any kind to be given a proper voice. There should be a set up for proper and constant feedback on proposals and policies in the decision making stage. There are a number of statutory fixtures in the report for any number of interested groups and individuals across the whole gamut of government, professional, trade and academic groups but not one avenue of direct input for actual transport users.

The only area of customer input is through a brief mention of third party surveys which is not nearly good enough IMO.

The second and potentially even bigger problem with the report is the fudge in its proposals for dealing with private bus operations.

The overall tone of the report is misleading, it gives the strong impression that the DTA will have overall control over all surface transport. This is true regarding all rail opreations and CIE bus services. It is most certainly not the case regarding private licenced bus operators where the DTA will have almost no control whatsoever.



What this means is that apart from the integrated ticketing and information systems all private operators will be free to carry on independent of any oversight as is now the case.

They will still be able to apply for licences (presumably still exclusive licences that ban any other operator private or state from those routes) to the DoT over the head of the DTA.

They will still be able to run whatever timetables they please even if that means Mon-Fri peak only services to the exclusion of the needs of all other users.

They will still be able to set their own fares as they please without regard to the DTA policy.

They will still be able to pull services as and where they like (while still holding a valid licence) without the DTA being able to force them to do otherwise or even contract in another operator to replace them.

Yeah John I noticed that myself it seems absurd that the DTA will be alledgedly controlling all land transport in the GDA but that the DOT will still be issuing licenses to private operators without any recourse to the DTA as to whether it fits into the DTAs plan .
In fact the DTA may be unable to offer services to certain areas because the DOT has already licensed someone to operate a service there even if the incumbent is not actually operating any service.
It seems to me that replacing the 1932 act at the same time as the DTA legisaltion is passed would have been the sensible way to go so that the DTA
would be in total control of all services.

Also the DTA mentions taking over services where the incumbent is not meeting standards but this does not seem to apply to private companies licensed separately from the DOT.


On another point it mentions incentives or fines for exceeding or falling short of targets which is fine but I dont see any mention of any obligation on the DTA to ensure that bus lanes are properly maintained or policed.
I suppose those kinds of details would be in the legislation.