[article] Bus and rail strike threatened by union

Navan Junction

Olivia Kelly, Irish Times, 28th Nov 2006

Thousands of commuters and shoppers could be left without public transport in the run-up to Christmas if the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) goes ahead with a threatened strike.

The NBRU has said it will seek a mandate from its members for industrial action if the Government does not extend the December 1st deadline for submissions on the proposed Dublin Transport Authority (DTA).

The unions's general secretary, Michael Faherty, said workers had been given the proposals less than two weeks ago, even though they had been with the Minister for Transport Martin Cullen since last March.

The NBRU had not been given time to properly consider the proposals and formulate a submission and had not received answers from the Department of Transport to requests for clarification, he said.

The DTA will have responsibility for transport in the Greater Dublin area, which includes Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, with control over strategic transport planning; procurement of public transport infrastructure and services; regulation of fares; delivery of an integrated public transport system; traffic management; demand management and data collection and research.

Mr Faherty said the union needed until at least January 1st to formulate a response.

A spokeswoman for Mr Cullen said he was flexible on the submissions deadline, but was anxious to publish the legislation before Christmas.

Champ

Not exactly uptodate with the DTA. Whats the union grievance with the DTA?

The DTA will have responsibility for transport in the Greater Dublin area, which includes Meath, Kildare and Wicklow, with control over strategic transport planning; procurement of public transport infrastructure and services; regulation of fares; delivery of an integrated public transport system; traffic management; demand management and data collection and research.

Seems like the DTA will be taking on duties which the transport department would normally handle... Is it the possibility that the DTA will look into providing additional transport providers... aka competition that has the union all worked up? If anything the threatened strike that would cripple public transport shows the need for such alternative providers to prevent the union from holding the public hostage to their demands.

John R

Champ wrote:

If anything the threatened strike that would cripple public transport shows the need for such alternative providers to prevent the union from holding the public hostage to their demands.

what makes you think that other operators will be any less unionised?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6164378.stm


TBH the details of the operation, powers and funding of the DTA is very important.

As their members employment will be effected by this the unions should be given enough time to make proper submissions before it is implemented.

However what about the public? I have heard nothing regards public consultation. Do the people who will have to live on a daily basis with the changes made not have a say in it?

Chris_533976

How about these unions just do the jobs their members are employed to do and quit threatening strikes on something so stupidly farcical as this??

Champ

what makes you think that other operators will be any less unionised?

Its not so much a question of unionised, but a question of having all your eggs in one basket. Outside of Dublin, bar a few private operators a lot of people only have Bus Eireann to rely on. Anytime Bus Eireann goes on strike, a lot of people have no alternatives except paying some expensive taxi fares.

With > 1 operator if 1 operator decides to go on strike, the others may not necessarily follow suit. Certainly preferable to the current situation whereby if the monopoly goes on strike then there is no service for the public whatsoever.

_Kaiser_

The usual bully-boy tactics from the unions and the only ones who suffer are the public that pay their wages. This won't affect the decision makers lads .. they all have cars or are chauffeured around anyway!

No doubt now all the DB/IE/CIE drivers and the rest of their supporters on this board will be on telling us that they have no choice but to strike etc, but newsflash kids - the average joe soap doesn't CARE about all this behind the scenes fighting. All they care about is that their bus/DART/train shows up and runs on schedule. And they won't be directing their anger to the union bosses or the politicians, they'll be directing it at YOU.

Not that it'll happen, but I'd call on all drivers and workers NOT to support the union if this strike goes ahead as the only ones who'll lose out will be you and the public.

Chris_533976 wrote:

How about these unions just do the jobs their members are employed to do and quit threatening strikes on something so stupidly farcical as this??

Quoted for truth.

dowlingm

obligatory...


STRIKE!

shltter

Chris_533976 wrote:

How about these unions just do the jobs their members are employed to do and quit threatening strikes on something so stupidly farcical as this??

Which part do you find farcical
That the Minister took 8 months before showing the proposals to the Unions
or that he expected them to have reviewed and made any submissions in 2 weeks.

The unions are doing their jobs they are representing their members their job is not to drive buses or trains

shltter

Kaiser2000 wrote:

The usual bully-boy tactics from the unions and the only ones who suffer are the public that pay their wages. This won't affect the decision makers lads .. they all have cars or are chauffeured around anyway!

So your suggestion is that the unions should sabotage the Ministers car:rolleyes:

Kaiser2000 wrote:

No doubt now all the DB/IE/CIE drivers and the rest of their supporters on this board will be on telling us that they have no choice but to strike etc, but newsflash kids - the average joe soap doesn't CARE about all this behind the scenes fighting. All they care about is that their bus/DART/train shows up and runs on schedule. And they won't be directing their anger to the union bosses or the politicians, they'll be directing it at YOU.

Newsflash the behind the scenes fighting affects the average joe soap because it affects what kind of public transport service we are going to have
so you can bury your head in the sand and pretend that the only thing that is important is that the buses run today unfortunately this is the real world and decisions made now about the DTA are going to affect us all for years to come that is the travelling public and the transport workers

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Not that it'll happen, but I'd call on all drivers and workers NOT to support the union if this strike goes ahead as the only ones who'll lose out will be you and the public.

.

I would be more impressed if you called on the Minister to extend the deadline and make the proposals public so that the travelling public could also make submissions but it seems that you are happy to keep your head in the sand and rely on Cullen to get it right because after all he has a great track record:rolleyes:



There wont be a strike this is just how the DOT do business the unions request something the DOT says no because that is the default response no matter what the question is the Unions threaten strike.
The DOT waits to see how serious the unions are then says yes.
Its boring its tiring and personally Iam sick to the back teeth of it but it seems that it is some kind of ritual dance that we have to go through every December I can hardly remember a Christmas without the "threat" of Strike.
The newspapers must have that article pre written ready to go every December along with the articles on the A&E crisis and carnage on the roads

bk

DB/IE/CIE need to be careful about going on strike and remember the taxi drivers.

The taxi drivers went on strike, but it only ended up turning the public completely against them and ended up allowing the government do whatever they wanted to.

DB/IE/CIE striking might be exactly what the government want. I find that the general public has very little patience for strikes any more and would likely be counter productive, it might lead to calls from the general public to privatise them.

Chris_533976

shltter wrote:

Which part do you find farcical
That the Minister took 8 months before showing the proposals to the Unions
or that he expected them to have reviewed and made any submissions in 2 weeks.

The unions are doing their jobs they are representing their members their job is not to drive buses or trains

Granted, he should have given them the proposals much earlier. Its crazy. BUT the unions should say "Minister may we please have them, we havent got them and since the deadline is in two weeks we could do with them. Thanks "

Certainally not "GIVE US THE DAMN THINGS RIGHT NOW OR WE STRIKE".

Red Alert

If the unions have any cop on they will refuse to collect fares. That puts the ball in CIE's court, so they'll be the party pooper if there's no bus.

aliveandkicking

The proposals for the DTA is only a 51 page document. I read it myself in an hour. How long do the unions want to review it? Three weeks is not very long to draft a detailed submission but it is long enough IMO.

Or maybe this is the usual change is bad mantra from the unions.

I predict the next threatened strike will be just before the planned opening of Docklands station in March.

admiralofthefleet

is that brendan ogle still at that union, he would call a strike if the vending machine in cie was out of coca cola.
what are the chances of it going ahead and the hard pressed commuter being let down again

shltter

Chris_533976 wrote:

Granted, he should have given them the proposals much earlier. Its crazy. BUT the unions should say "Minister may we please have them, we havent got them and since the deadline is in two weeks we could do with them. Thanks "

Certainally not "GIVE US THE DAMN THINGS RIGHT NOW OR WE STRIKE".

You are presuming that this is the first interaction between the DOT and the NBRU.
Can you tell me what exactly the unions should do if they ask nicely and are told to **** off should they just accept it and say oh well we tried

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

The proposals for the DTA is only a 51 page document. I read it myself in an hour. How long do the unions want to review it? Three weeks is not very long to draft a detailed submission but it is long enough IMO.

Or maybe this is the usual change is bad mantra from the unions.

I predict the next threatened strike will be just before the planned opening of Docklands station in March.

And do you know the setup in the unions

How many people have to read it.
What meetings have to be organised
Are all of the relevant people available


It is a stupid comment to equate you reading a document in an hour and a Trade Union discussing the document getting the views of its members and formulating a response.
The request for the deadline to be put back one month is not unreasonable.

shltter

admiralgar wrote:

is that brendan ogle still at that union, he would call a strike if the vending machine in cie was out of coca cola.
what are the chances of it going ahead and the hard pressed commuter being let down again

Brendan Ogle was not in the NBRU he left SIPTU and set up the ILDA he is now an organiser with the ATGWU.
And what knowledge of Brendan Ogle do you have.
Have you ever met him have you ever discussed anything with him have you even read his book. Or are your opinions purely based on what you read in the gutter press about him.
Considering you don't even know what Union he represented my bet is that any bit of knowledge you have is based on the latter and as such means you know **** all

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

And do you know the setup in the unions

How many people have to read it.
What meetings have to be organised
Are all of the relevant people available


It is a stupid comment to equate you reading a document in an hour and a Trade Union discussing the document getting the views of its members and formulating a response.
The request for the deadline to be put back one month is not unreasonable.

3 weeks is enough time. Amazing how 3 weeks is no problem for all the other interested parties to make their submissions (RPA, DTO, DCC, Fingal CC, SDCC, DLRCC, etc.) but not for the NBRU :rolleyes:

DerekP11

shltter wrote:

There wont be a strike this is just how the DOT do business the unions request something the DOT says no because that is the default response no matter what the question is the Unions threaten strike.
The DOT waits to see how serious the unions are then says yes.
Its boring its tiring and personally Iam sick to the back teeth of it but it seems that it is some kind of ritual dance that we have to go through every December I can hardly remember a Christmas without the "threat" of Strike.
The newspapers must have that article pre written ready to go every December along with the articles on the A&E crisis and carnage on the roads

But of course its not the unions fault at all and their response of "strike action" isn't outdated and obviously the most professional response they could muster? You're having a laugh schltter.

Ive a piece of advice for you. The DOT have an agenda. Transport unions have an agenda. Public transport staff probably have an agenda too. So I suggest you deal with the opinions of public transport users,like those expressed here and on other forums, because we have an agenda too and it starts with service expectation. We should all be able to play this merry game. Since I was a kid, Ive grown up watching passengers get shafted by Government, CIE, strikes and believe it or not Staff. Try accepting some opinion instead of defending the fortress that you find yourself in.

Anyone can make a submission before friday. Click this link and the details are at the bottom of the press release. So get crackin! The most important part of any submission from people like us should be to call for user representation mechanisms on the DTA. For donkeys years users have been excluded from the decision making process. Is it really unrealistic for us to finally demand a say in all of this?

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=8466&lang=ENG&loc=1887

admiralofthefleet

shltter wrote:

Brendan Ogle was not in the NBRU he left SIPTU and set up the ILDA he is now an organiser with the ATGWU.
And what knowledge of Brendan Ogle do you have.
Have you ever met him have you ever discussed anything with him have you even read his book. Or are your opinions purely based on what you read in the gutter press about him.
Considering you don't even know what Union he represented my bet is that any bit of knowledge you have is based on the latter and as such means you know **** all

there is no need to be so rude, i was sure he/possibly you was in the nbru.

shltter

DerekP11 wrote:

But of course its not the unions fault at all and their response of "strike action" isn't outdated and obviously the most professional response they could muster? You're having a laugh schltter.

Ive a piece of advice for you. The DOT have an agenda. Transport unions have an agenda. Public transport staff probably have an agenda too. So I suggest you deal with the opinions of public transport users,like those expressed here and on other forums, because we have an agenda too and it starts with service expectation. We should all be able to play this merry game. Since I was a kid, Ive grown up watching passengers get shafted by Government, CIE, strikes and believe it or not Staff. Try accepting some opinion instead of defending the fortress that you find yourself in.

Anyone can make a submission before friday. Click this link and the details are at the bottom of the press release. So get crackin! The most important part of any submission from people like us should be to call for user representation mechanisms on the DTA. For donkeys years users have been excluded from the decision making process. Is it really unrealistic for us to finally demand a say in all of this?

Ok so enlighten me what aspect of this is the unions fault

Should they have used ESP to find out what the proposals were before the Minister was ready to tell them
Should they make a 2 week rushed submission to keep you happy

It is games the Unions play them the DOT play them and CIE play them this particular game is the DOTs they deliberately left it late then we have to go through this charade of threatened strikes etc.
I have seen it all before and it is very boring


BTW since strike action is outdated what is your enlightened suggestion as to what they should have done.
We all know that the chances of this leading to strike action are tiny it is about getting attention and putting pressure on the DOT to grant an extension the members have not even been balloted yet nevermind anything else.

shltter

admiralgar wrote:

there is no need to be so rude, i was sure he/possibly you was in the nbru.

I am being rude but what you can say what you like about a named individual who you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

My suggestion is that you go here buy the book

http://www.currach.ie/catalogue.php?&ISBN=1-85607-906-6

And at least attempt to educate yourself about him before you start making insulting comments about him

DerekP11

shltter wrote:

Ok so enlighten me what aspect of this is the unions fault

Should they have used ESP to find out what the proposals were before the Minister was ready to tell them
Should they make a 2 week rushed submission to keep you happy

It is games the Unions play them the DOT play them and CIE play them this particular game is the DOTs they deliberately left it late then we have to go through this charade of threatened strikes etc.
I have seen it all before and it is very boring


BTW since strike action is outdated what is your enlightened suggestion as to what they should have done.
We all know that the chances of this leading to strike action are tiny it is about getting attention and putting pressure on the DOT to grant an extension the members have not even been balloted yet nevermind anything else.

The fact that the NBRU threatened strike action in relation to this matter is their fault. They said it. It is emdemic of why Irish public transport users are so negative to your cause schltter and why you find little sympathy.

I never asked that the NBRU make a rushed submission to, "keep me happy", as you put it. But I don't think public transport users should be threatened with a strike either, whether its a "game" or not.

As for my "enlightened suggestion"? I don't remember claiming to be "enlightened". I don't have to be enlightened or privvy to the games your union (or not) play with the DOT. All I want, like thousands of other "customers" and a heck of a lot of them are your customers, is the ability to avail of an efficient public transport system and the right to comment and/or criticise it (and all its players) without having to subscribe to the contribution of a very defensive NBRU (or not) publicist like you.

Once again, I suggest that you are doing yourself no favours by your attitude to posts here. Ive stated in other threads that I respect the job you have to do and I really and truly think you should at least attempt to understand the frustration of passengers who bother to commit time to contributing here. There are thousands who don't and a few who try to represent them. But try to take on board that in 21st century Ireland, a lot of public transport users are sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** that has permeated public transport for generations and do want to make a stand, even if its an internet forum.

John R

admiralgar wrote:

there is no need to be so rude, i was sure he/possibly you was in the nbru.

Rude?

The only rude post here was yours. Do you think it is acceptable to make ignorant and offensive comments about an individual you clearly know NOTHING about?

Unlike shltter I won't bother suggesting you read up on topics you are ignorant of, TBH I reckon it is a waste of time. Instead I suggest you simply refrain from making comments about people and events you do not know or understand.

John R

DerekP11 wrote:

The fact that the NBRU threatened strike action in relation to this matter is their fault. They said it. It is emdemic of why Irish public transport users are so negative to your cause schltter and why you find little sympathy.

Derek, I believe you are well enough informed to know that there is a world of difference between the union threatening action and a real likelihood of strikes taking place.

Shltter is correct about it being part of the game played between unions and government, particularly in this sector.

Not for one minute am I suggesting that any of this is a reasonable way to go about business but that is the way thing are done ATM.

Blaming the unions alone for the way the "system" works is also rather myopic. They are far from blameless but are still only one cog in a large and very warped machine.

DerekP11 wrote:

Once again, I suggest that you are doing yourself no favours by your attitude to posts here. Ive stated in other threads that I respect the job you have to do and I really and truly think you should at least attempt to understand the frustration of passengers who bother to commit time to contributing here. There are thousands who don't and a few who try to represent them. But try to take on board that in 21st century Ireland, a lot of public transport users are sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** that has permeated public transport for generations and do want to make a stand, even if its an internet forum.

I applaud people who take a stand in trying to improve things but all too often the pervading opinions of those passengers are based on incorrect and ignorant opinions.

The pervasive view amongst many that the unions and particularly the unionised front-line workers are the root of all evil in CIE is simply wrong.

When those justifiably angry transport users make a stand based on those incorrect views the demands they make are not only targeted at the wrong people but are often a step in the wrong direction for our transport network.

SeanW

semi-rhetorical question: When are the Luas drivers going on strike?

shltter

DerekP11 wrote:

The fact that the NBRU threatened strike action in relation to this matter is their fault. They said it. It is emdemic of why Irish public transport users are so negative to your cause schltter and why you find little sympathy.

I never asked that the NBRU make a rushed submission to, "keep me happy", as you put it. But I don't think public transport users should be threatened with a strike either, whether its a "game" or not.

As for my "enlightened suggestion"? I don't remember claiming to be "enlightened". I don't have to be enlightened or privvy to the games your union (or not) play with the DOT. All I want, like thousands of other "customers" and a heck of a lot of them are your customers, is the ability to avail of an efficient public transport system and the right to comment and/or criticise it (and all its players) without having to subscribe to the contribution of a very defensive NBRU (or not) publicist like you.

Once again, I suggest that you are doing yourself no favours by your attitude to posts here. Ive stated in other threads that I respect the job you have to do and I really and truly think you should at least attempt to understand the frustration of passengers who bother to commit time to contributing here. There are thousands who don't and a few who try to represent them. But try to take on board that in 21st century Ireland, a lot of public transport users are sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** that has permeated public transport for generations and do want to make a stand, even if its an internet forum.

So you have nothing only criticism

It is easy to say that this or that is outdated but you have no single clue as to what the alternative is.

It is easy to come here and say this is wrong when you are not faced by the same situation and have no idea what alternative is available.


I dont give a **** if you think I am doing myself favours or not

I am sick and tired of the same monotonous bull**** but it goes on and you have to deal with it. The NBRU cannot stick it head in the sand and pretend that the deadline will go away if they don't think about it.
Do you think that anyone in CIE wants to go on strike about something so stupid.

You dont think that the NBRU should be forced to make a rushed submission to a proposal that has been sitting on Cullens desk for the last 8 months but you don't think that the NBRU should threaten strike either.
But hang on if you read the article then you realise that what Mick Faherty said was that they would look for a Mandate for INDUSTRIAL ACTION if the deadline was not extended (note industrial action Not strike)
Then you read the last line at it says

A spokeswoman for Mr Cullen said he was flexible on the submissions deadline, but was anxious to publish the legislation before Christmas.

So it is a non story the union wants 4 weeks the minister seems to be offering 3 straight off and says he is flexible but anxious not it must be published by december 25 but he is anxious to have it published by then.

My reading is that the DOT were playing hard ball on the date the unions cry Industrial action and the DOT softens it may not be pretty it may not be the way grown ups should behave but it works and **** all else does.
So unfortunately until public transport is taken away from the DOT this is likely the way it is going to be.
BTW I find it equally frustrating that negotiations between the Minister and the unions have to be conducted through a journalist in the Irish times but I would find it more frustrating if my representatives sat on their hands and did nothing in case they upset the travelling public.
I believe that there is an agenda in the DOT and that you and most of the people here are falling right for it in that you are not looking at the issue but only at the possible industrial action. I understand that it is from a purely selfish point of view in that the industrial action will affect you but if you look at it from a purely selfish view then why criticise the unions for looking at it from their selfish view point.
No one here has asked why the Minister sat on the proposals for 8 months and then gives the unions 2 weeks to look at them.


Besides which there is not going to be any strike it is a non story move on

aliveandkicking

Why is it only the NBRU who have a problem with this deadline? There are many other interested party's making submissions but we have not heard any of them complaining about the December 1st deadline.

aliveandkicking

shltter wrote:

Besides which there is not going to be any strike it is a non story move on

You are right, it was a non story however the NBRU have made it into a story by threatening industrial action. Only themselves to blame for the negative publicity generated.

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

You are right, it was a non story however the NBRU have made it into a story by threatening industrial action. Only themselves to blame for the negative publicity generated.

No it only became a non story once the threat was made if the NBRU had sat on their hands then the 1st of December deadline would have remained.
I am waiting for anyone here to suggest another way the NBRU could have handled this in the time frame available.

And Trade Unions have long ago given up on trying to be popular it is not their job to get you to like them it is their job to represent their members interest and that is what they were doing.

shltter

aliveandkicking wrote:

Why is it only the NBRU who have a problem with this deadline? There are many other interested party's making submissions but we have not heard any of them complaining about the December 1st deadline.

The NBRU is the only union in the CIE group of unions that is not a member of the ICTU and therefore is not bound in the same manner to the terms of the National pay deals.
Other unions like SIPTU although they may be just as unhappy can threaten nothing with out the say so of the big wigs in Liberty Hall as was demonstrated recently when Liberty Hall called of an action by its branch in Aer lingus.

And just because you have not heard them does not mean they are not making any noise a tree falls in the forest and all that