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Atlanta cops shoot innocent 92 year old woman dead

  • 22-11-2006 1:26pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    First a student gets tazered for being a little rebellious, then a 92 year old woman gets gunned down for legitimately trying to defend her home. American cops gun happy? Nah...

    http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/22/woman.shot.ap/index.html


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,541 ✭✭✭Heisenberg.


    This post has been deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,836 ✭✭✭BigCon


    She hot three of them first! Serves her right imo...

    "One was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,896 ✭✭✭fish-head


    That's mad. Totally nuts. Gun culture in America is just out of control..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36,634 ✭✭✭✭Ruu_Old


    Well they probably scared her silly, kicking the door down. Hardly a need for that as mentioned in the story. Very trigger happy altogether.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,201 ✭✭✭KamiKazi


    yeah exactly she managed to hit three of them, who would expect the cops not to return fire??


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,563 ✭✭✭connundrum


    KamiKazi wrote:
    yeah exactly she managed to hit three of them, who would expect the cops not to return fire??

    I could imagine the olde Irish cops dealing with it...

    'We'll let her keep shooting at us until she runs out of bullets right, then we'll take her down gently. A good cuppa joe will sort the situation out. Seamus, will ya need an aul plaster for that?!'

    She deserved it IMO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,229 ✭✭✭Dan133269


    That has to be the most badly written report I've ever read. First of all it said the officers knocked, announced, and then broke in the door. Then in the next paragraph it says they were fired upon as they "approached" the house, which is it?
    Common sense also would have told police officers to wear uniforms while conducting unarranged callings to members of the public in their own homes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,984 ✭✭✭✭Lump


    I'm pretty sure they shout POLICE POLICE while kicking the door down.....

    John


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    Terrible report, not very clear at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,478 ✭✭✭padi89


    seamus wrote:
    First a student gets tazered for being a little rebellious
    From the video i saw of that tazering, the fvcker deserved it, pity he didnt get a few slaps of the batton into the puss too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    Lump wrote:
    I'm pretty sure they shout POLICE POLICE while kicking the door down.....

    John
    I thought they had to "knock and announce", as well as demand to be let in before they entered forcefully?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Everyone's getting their information from the Associated Press it would seem.

    Initial reports (which I heard second-hand) said that plain clothes officers initially knocked on the door, and when there was no answer (understandable - an old woman isn't going to answer the door to some strangers claiming to be the police, but not in uniform), they stormed the house and she opened fire. Reports also suggested that she was hit by "up to fifty" bullets - but this was probably bystanders seeing/hearing semi-automatic weapons and jumping to conclusions.

    It's more-or-less a symptom of what America has done to its citizens. They're so terrified, that they assume a caller must an assailant. If they're going to bring heavily-armed ARUs to a raid, the least they can do is make sure they're calling to the correct house above all else. In most other western countries, the person would a) Probably have answered the door, and b) not had the will/means to open fire on the person who broke down their door.


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    I'm sure the cops would have been shouting that they were police, especially if they were in plain clothes. She certainly didn't seem to waste any time in firing off a few rounds. Just because she was a 92 year old woman doesn't mean she was innocent!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,589 ✭✭✭Hail 2 Da Chimp


    The cops were the ones who got the address wrong, they started shouting and kicked in her front door. She was alone in her house at night. I cant blame her for firing a few shots - its obviously a bad neighbour hood she could have been broken into / robbed before!

    Cops fault IMO, if your gonna break a door down at least make sure its the right door!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Am the only person impressed by the old dears ability to clip three of them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Dragan wrote:
    Am the only person impressed by the old dears ability to clip three of them?
    ROFLicious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,399 ✭✭✭✭r3nu4l


    Dragan wrote:
    Am the only person impressed by the old dears ability to clip three of them?

    Who says the elderly are incapable of looking after themselves?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Okay she lost in the end but only against overwhelming odds!

    /joking aside. That is fairly tragic, as an old person, if people broke into my house shouting 'Police' I wouldn't just assume they were telling me the truth! My nan got done over before by a woman wearing a navy jumper and skirt and a habit on her head claiming to be a nun!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    Dragan wrote:
    Am the only person impressed by the old dears ability to clip three of them?

    wonder what her grouping was like? :D
    so three cops got punctured and some poor old dear has shuffled off to her maker a bit early all because some halfwit f****d up their intel.

    I once had to convince a gaggle of gardai that the local dealer didnt live in our place. They were a bit suspect when i told them that we'd only lived at the address for the last twenty years, as they had "information" that he was now at this address. The dealer actually lived next door and had been there for the last five years :rolleyes: i forgot to mention that though to the capped culchies though:o

    So yeah, police intelligence..bit of an oxymoron at times


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 195 ✭✭markk06


    In fairness to the police they didn't know at the time that they had the wrong info... All they knew was that they were being shot at... what did you expect them to do?

    She deserved it in my opinion.. "little old lady??"

    And yes she was "innocent" of whatever the cops were raiding her house for but the cops shot a 92 year old woman who was after shooting three of them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭vorbis


    tragic story, but you can't really blame the police. She shot at them three times, not a wise thing to do over here!


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  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Cataleya Yummy Quid


    Some americans are pretty crazy
    and too fond of the ol' guns


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    Actually - she wasn't innocent. At least not once she started firing! Lets see, that's three counts of attempted murder of cops, depending on the state I think it's death or 25+ years to life. Course at that age she'd barely have time to change into her orange jump suit before she shuffled off this mortal coil...

    Also, what if it had been someone else who had to force the door? What if it had been paramedics checking to see was she ok after someone reported concerns for her?

    Wouldn't like to sell cookies in her neighborhood!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Except its not murder when an armed individual breaks into your home in most US states.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    The second she fired the weapon she was a threat, the second she shot a cop she was viable to be shot at to stop her hurting anyone else.

    Age shouldn't even come into it. People don't become all innocent when they get older.

    Some examples:
    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fogeys2/fogeys2.html


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,528 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Americans.....
    Is it true that all 300 million US Americans are identical in their behavior, attitudes, religion, culture, race, heritage, education, social & economic status, gender, generational orientation, and notions of fair play? That all would agree with the way this old woman was treated?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,497 ✭✭✭✭Dragan


    Is it true that all 300 million US Americans are identical in their behavior, attitudes, religion, culture, race, heritage, education, social & economic status, gender, generational orientation, and notions of fair play?

    Yes? :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Is it true that all 300 million US Americans are identical in their behavior, attitudes, religion, culture, race, heritage, education, social & economic status, gender, generational orientation, and notions of fair play? That all would agree with the way this old woman was treated?
    Well, obviously not all, just most. ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39 sharonlarkin


    I think its awful for both the old woman and the police. Maybe she was deaf and didn't hear them shouting. Maybe she just saw men bursting in the door waving guns and she defended herself. MAYBE


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 195 ✭✭markk06


    CiaranC wrote:
    Except its not murder when an armed individual breaks into your home in most US states.

    But nobody broke into her home.... the police are allowed to enter a property if they believe a crime is being committed under law of trespass... Obviously they thought there was something going on when they were raiding the house


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,116 ✭✭✭✭RasTa


    markk06 wrote:
    But nobody broke into her home.... the police are allowed to enter a property if they believe a crime is being committed under law of trespass... Obviously they thought there was something going on when they were raiding the house

    Yeah and they got the wrong house, it happens..... alot.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭Rb


    Pretty retarded thing to happen alright.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Hobbes wrote:
    The second she fired the weapon she was a threat, the second she shot a cop she was viable to be shot at to stop her hurting anyone else.

    Age shouldn't even come into it. People don't become all innocent when they get older.

    Some examples:
    http://www.thesmokinggun.com/fogeys2/fogeys2.html


    the second the plainclothes policemen kicked down her door they became a threat to her?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,485 ✭✭✭Thrill


    Their lucky they broke into the wrong house. If a little old lady could put bullets into three highly trained cops, just think how many a young armed scumbag could have got.

    The poor woman must have been scared out of her mind. Just cos someone shouts "police" at your front door doesn't necessarily mean that its a cop. Especially in the US. It could have been anyone for all she knew.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,316 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    markk06 wrote:
    But nobody broke into her home...
    Sorry. Missed the bit that said they had a key:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,085 ✭✭✭wow sierra


    Think this story is pretty timely after about 90% of Irish people voted in some poll that it was ok to shoot an intruder. Its time for us to decide what kind of society we want. More guns = less safety - not the other way around.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 149 ✭✭SteveS


    thrill wrote:
    The poor woman must have been scared out of her mind. Just cos someone shouts "police" at your front door doesn't necessarily mean that its a cop. Especially in the US. It could have been anyone for all she knew.

    There was a local man that purchased a police uniform and attached a flashing light to his car. He would pull over women on rural roads and rape them. He was eventually caught, but not until after he raped 8 or 9 women.

    Police may use force, even lethal force under certain cirsumstances, in making an arrest or conducting a raid. Citizens may not legally resist a lawful arrest. The key here is "lawful." If the police attempt to arrest a person that has done nothing or they do not have a warrant, that person may resist arrest.

    Fortunately, we do not live in a police state where people can be be arrested on a whim. Frankly, I think police conduct too many raids when they do not have to.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    By sheer coincidence I was arguing this exact issue with the wife last night over dinner. She's studying law, and one of her current courses is over the 4th Ammendment (Search and seizure)

    I had presented several scenarios to her:

    1) Policeman walking the beat hears what sounds like a breaking-and-entering in progress from a house on the other side of a fence. (Back yard). He hops over the fence to investigate. He is shot by a homeowner who just sees this guy entering his property.

    2) Police serving a warrant screw up the address, and forcibly enter into a house. The homeowner shoots the first cop in the door, and is later arrested.

    3) Police serving a warrant screw up the address and forcibly enter into a house. They see a homeowner with a gun, and shoot him/her.

    What happens in each case?

    Well, case 1 was very definitely an acquittal for the homeowner. (This case happened).

    Case #2 is the same.

    Case #3 apparently depends on who screwed up: If the cop serving the warrant had the right address on the warrant, but broke down the wrong door, he's at fault. If the address on the warrant had a typo, he was acting in good faith, and should be immune from prosecution.
    I'm sure the cops would have been shouting that they were police, especially if they were in plain clothes

    Unfortunately, there have been a spate of instances around here where exactly where this sort of thing happened: Bashing of doors, people yelling 'Police! Search warrant!' often in police-type attire, who are in fact nothing of the sort. They're banking on the fact that a law-abiding homeowner isn't going to shoot at a cop. The general rule of thumb in such a situation is that if you know you've done nothing wrong, and there is no reason for the police to be serving a warrant, it's a fair bet that the people breaking in have no right to be there.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭abetarrush


    How would a 92 Year old woman have such a good aim?

    And how did she have a gun so handy?


    what a crock of sh!t


    somethins not right there


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    abetarrush wrote:
    How would a 92 Year old woman have such a good aim?

    Depends on what she used. If a shotgun, then accuracy isn't particularly difficult. Otherwise, maybe she practised?
    And how did she have a gun so handy?

    Could have been in her pocket, by her chair, whatever. I don't usually go that far, myself, but that's more an issue of not bothering to have gone to the shop for an IWB holster. I've been meaning to do it for a while now. My pistol doesn't do me any good right now unless I happen to be in my bedroom at the time.
    somethins not right there
    Quite correct. Somehow the cops ended up beating down on a 92-year-old's door. Someone screwed up, and I rather hope some lessons were learned.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Is it just me, or is the niece the same woman from that Michael Moore film.
    You know the one.
    "That man was my life. I need to know what happened to him. So its very important" - husband killed in 9/11.
    It really looks like her, and she has the same voice.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Interesting. I've had the time to browse the discussions on the various American boards I'm on, and I'm going to retract some of my 'Screwed up' comments.

    The cops bashing in the door might at least have worn uniforms. Apparently they just wore vests with 'Police' written on them. That's the cops' bad, if the woman was actually stopping to try to identify whoever was coming in.

    On the other hand, the cops are adamant that they had the right target location, had good grounds for the warrant (Undercover cop had made a buy there shortly before), and obtained suspected drugs at the location.

    The best estimate so far, though the investigation obviously will be a few days, is that one of the woman's younger relatives (eg grandson) was dealing drugs out of her house, probably without her knowing it. Apparently abusing an elder's home is not an unknown thing. If that is the case, then the blame, such as it is, for her death lies at her own relative's doorstep.

    Weapon used was apparently a six-shooter. That was excellent shooting by her. One cop was hit three times. Most people wouldn't be that accurate.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Interesting. I've had the time to browse the discussions on the various American boards I'm on, and I'm going to retract some of my 'Screwed up' comments.

    The cops bashing in the door might at least have worn uniforms. Apparently they just wore vests with 'Police' written on them. That's the cops' bad, if the woman was actually stopping to try to identify whoever was coming in.

    On the other hand, the cops are adamant that they had the right target location, had good grounds for the warrant (Undercover cop had made a buy there shortly before), and obtained suspected drugs at the location.

    The best estimate so far, though the investigation obviously will be a few days, is that one of the woman's younger relatives (eg grandson) was dealing drugs out of her house, probably without her knowing it. Apparently abusing an elder's home is not an unknown thing. If that is the case, then the blame, such as it is, for her death lies at her own relative's doorstep.

    Weapon used was apparently a six-shooter. That was excellent shooting by her. One cop was hit three times. Most people wouldn't be that accurate.

    NTM


    questions is who would mcdowell and FG back?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Smith and Wesson. The only party which worked as they should have.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 878 ✭✭✭Bicky


    Tragic.
    Very similar story from 2002 in which a black man called Cory Maye killed the white son of the town's police chief. Maye lived in a duplex with his 18month old daughter and the warrant was for the resident of the other apartment. He had no record and was asleep when his door was kicked in. At the time the police said there was no drugs in his possession but later said they found traced of marijuana.

    There is a lot to this story and it is a good read.

    theAgitator
    wiki


    Seems that mrs johnston was living in fear and a younger relative had possibly been using her house as a place to sell drugs. If that was the case then yipee, another victory for the ****ing american jutice system and its war on drugs and black people.
    link


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭Conar


    Did anyone listen to the second video to the end?

    The reporter finishes with something like.....

    "The police are not releasing information about the officers but we have managed to find out that 2 of them were white and one was african american"

    I mean WTF?????
    What in the hell has that got to do with anything?
    No wonder that country is such a mess if the colour of the police officers is relevant in a situation like this.

    **Edited for spelling mistakes"


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Houston Griffin


    Always nice to see my city make international news... I don't have any insight into what really happened, but here's what the local TV news said five minutes ago (according to the police): Yesterday, undercover cops bought drugs from a man at that home. There is now a warrant out on that man. The police had a "no knock" warrant (a hotly debated issue in this city for years), but they did knock.

    Police issues are complicated in Atlanta because the greater metro area of Atlanta (approximately five million in population) actually consists of several cities and there are five or six counties that make up the metro Atlanta area. This means there are many different city and county police forces, some better than others. I'm not sure which police juristiction this incident falls under. Earlier reports I heard today said it happened in DeKalb County, but the TV just said it happened in Fulton County, which would mean it most likely happened in official city limits. If that's the case, it's well known the Atlanta PD has some problems. For one thing, there's a lot of cronyism and a lot of unqualified people get promoted to high positions. The last Atlanta mayor appointed his personal chauffer as the Atlanta Chief of Police.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,635 ✭✭✭Conar


    For one thing, there's a lot of cronyism and a lot of unqualified people get promoted to high positions. The last Atlanta mayor appointed his personal chauffer as the Atlanta Chief of Police.

    Ah man, you have to be joking!
    Please tell me you're joking!

    ***EDIT***

    Seems to be some truth to that.
    Found this on the web:

    "During the past administration of Mayor Bill Campbell, who is now, by the way, awaiting trial on corruption charges, the leadership of the Atlanta Police Department became a joke. The department was headed by a woman who was, in essence, a chauffeur for a prior police chief."


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Houston Griffin


    Conar wrote:

    I mean WTF?????
    What in the hell has that got to do with anything?
    No wonder that country is such a mess if the colour of the police officers is relevant in a situation like this.

    Race is a very hot topic in Atlanta. Fulton County (by which I mean the official Atlanta city limits) is a over 80% black. There has not been a white mayor, police chief, fire chief, ect in Atlanta since the early 1970s. Most whites (such as myself) live in the counties surrounding Atlanta, although we consider ourselves ATLiens as well. This incident happened in a majority black area, where a majority of the police, and all the police leadership is black, so I doubt this will turn out to become a highly racialized incident. If this had happened to a black person in my part of the city, it probably would turn into a highly racial event.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 60 ✭✭Houston Griffin


    Yeah, Bill Campbell was a real piece of work. He and his crew ripped off the Olympic Committee bigtime back in 1996. After he left office, he was hit with a variety of bribery and racketeering charges from federal investigators. He played the race card hard and was acquitted of most of the charges by a local jury, but he did convicted of tax evasion, which he is in prison for right now. I always thought that was funny; the jury acquitted him of any crimes that would explain how he amassed millions of dollars his salary and investments couldn't account for, but convicted him of not paying taxes on the millions of dollars he had no way of explaing how he acquired.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    On a related note...

    Wednesday, November 15, 2006
    No charges filed in officer’s shooting

    Grand jury won’t indict car dealer

    By Kevin Keenan TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF


    WORCESTER— Car dealer Mark P. Ragsdale will not be charged with shooting a Shrewsbury police officer in Mr. Ragsdale’s home in July, according to a spokeswoman for District Attorney John J. Conte.

    A Worcester County grand jury returned a “no bill” Monday, meaning Mr. Ragsdale was not indicted, after jurors heard evidence gathered for the case. Mr. Ragsdale could not be reached for comment yesterday.

    The shooting occurred at 2:30 a.m. July 14 in Mr. Ragsdale’s home, 17A Farmington Drive, Shrewsbury. When Officers Stephen Rice and Ryan Chartrand went there to investigate a burglar alarm, Mr. Ragsdale shot Officer Rice in the abdomen, according to police.

    A neighbor had let the two officers into Mr. Ragsdale’s home after they searched outside. The neighbor, who had a key and was on the alarm company’s list of people to notify regarding the home, told police that Mr. Ragsdale was on vacation and that the home should have been empty.

    Police were unaware that Mr. Ragsdale had come home. According to the police, Mr. Ragsdale told the alarm company that he set off the alarm, but the alarm company did not notify police.

    Police said the officers, who were in full uniform and arrived in a marked cruiser, noticed a dim light on the second floor and saw a shadowy figure. They entered the home to search it and Officer Rice was shot as he reached the second floor. Police said Mr. Ragsdale’s wife and children were on vacation at the time.

    Officer Rice, a one-year member of the force, was seriously injured and hospitalized for a week.

    Mr. Ragsdale, president and chief executive officer of the Ragsdale Motor Group network of auto dealerships in Shrewsbury and Spencer, was licensed to carry the Smith & Wesson semiautomatic handgun used in the shooting.

    The investigation was handled by Shrewsbury police, the district attorney’s office and state police. Shrewsbury Police Chief A. Wayne Sampson could not be reached for comment yesterday. At the time of the shooting, Chief Sampson said the shooting would be thoroughly investigated, including an internal review of police tactics in response to the shooting, to ensure future safety of police officers. How about a policy of not responding to alarm calls at the Ragsdale home?

    Ray McGrath, political director for the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, which represents Shrewsbury patrolmen, said members of the department were shocked when they heard that Mr. Ragsdale was not indicted. He said he thought the investigation was mishandled by Chief Sampson and that Mr. Ragsdale should have been arrested and charged the night of the shooting. He said Officer Rice “was an inch away from death” and said it was “really unbelievable” that Mr. Ragsdale was not charged with anything.

    “This is a real serious blow to the Shrewsbury Police Department and to law enforcement itself. The police community as a whole will be very surprised,” Mr. McGrath said. “Accidental or not a person receiving no punishment for that is beyond comprehension.”

    Mr. McGrath said Mr. Ragsdale’s position as “a person of influence” in Worcester County could have had an effect on the grand jury.

    “A person with influence in the community got away with a crime that a regular citizen wouldn’t get away with,” Mr. McGrath said.


    NTM


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