Metro West Route Options

Winters

Public Consultation starting today:

http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/November%202006%20-%20Dublin%20Metro%20West.pdf

strassenwolf

The whole idea of this line is a disgrace.

There are many areas of the city council area which are of a sufficiently high density to support a LUAS/metro line, yet they are being ignored.

Meanwhile the RPA are instructed to press on with a line which passes through areas of much lower density, and partly even through areas of almost no population whatsoever.

When the problems of getting lots of people into and across the city have been largely dealt with, then it might be time to deal with the issue of getting people around the city.

As the first problem has not been solved, this project should be put very much on the long finger.

Maybe we can take heart from the public consultation into the LUAS link-up. i.e. the fact that a public consultation process takes place doesn't necessarily mean that there's likely to be any action.

Borzoi

strassenwolf wrote:

When the problems of getting lots of people into and across the city have been largely dealt with, then it might be time to deal with the issue of getting people around the city.

In effect this line will act as the public transport equivalent of the M50 (though hopefully with out the congestion) allowing people to move around the city, WITHOUT going into the centre, unlike current public transport. This will lift pressure on the radial routes.

Another reason for going ahead with this, is that land had been put aside for the development of the metro - so it should be cheap and easy to construct, in comparison to the airport Luas line.

It's not like we can't afford this(or Airprt Luas, or joining the Luas) , it's more that we can't afford not to.

Slice

strassenwolf: The whole idea of this line is a disgrace.

I agree completely.

If the intention of this line is to provide a public transport link between the western towns of Tallaght, Clondalkin, Lucan and Blanchardstown then it would probably be best done with Luas or improved bus services. You have to wonder if the RPA, DTO and Government considered the following questions when devising this route:

1. How many journeys are made between these suburbs at present and what is the projected growth in the number of journeys between these areas?
2. What type of public transport service is required to serve this demand?
3. Does the capacity of Metro West represent overkill on these projections?

Would journey times from Tallaght into the city centre on Metro West represent an improvement over current journey times from Tallaght into the city centre offered by Luas and bus? Have the RPA even announced anticipated journey times? Because if they don't represent a time saving then why would anyone from Tallaght use Metro West except for journeys to Clondalkin or Blanchardstown. More importantly if there's not going to be that many people using Metro West for journeys between the west-side suburbs then why is it being built?

It looks like yet another excuse to rezone more of the Dublin green-belt to line the pockets of property developers and land owners in an area that's already well and truly scarred by previous zoning scandals.

Slice

Borzoi: In effect this line will act as the public transport equivalent of the M50 (though hopefully with out the congestion) allowing people to move around the city, WITHOUT going into the centre, unlike current public transport.

The intention of the M50 was to bypass Dublin for people travelling from say Wexford to Louth, or Cork to Belfast - it was never meant to be used by Dublin commuters as a means to avoid the city centre. I don't think Metro West can be compared to it to be honest.

There no such thing as public transport serving radial routes at present. Dublin Bus and the DTO pay lip-service to the idea but take a look at any radial bus route timetable and you'll see it's pretty sparse - I'm thinking the number 75, the 114. It seems such an obvious option to improve radial bus routes but it's not happening in favour of what will turn out to be far costlier and less flexible.

mickoneill30

It's not just connecting the west towns though is it. I live in Swords. Sometime in the future far far away, I'll be able to get a train from Swords -> Tallaght or Blanchardstown. These and other trips like it are destinations I and many other people who are sitting on the M50 use every day. To get a bus now to those places is a major pain in the ass and not viable for me currently.

aliveandkicking

Blanchardstown – Tallaght is one of the fastest growing tranport corridors in Dublin. The M50 is heavily congested, thousands of people work along the M50 corridor and have no alternative but to drive. Metro West will give them an alternative. Not everybody wants to travel into the city, there is a huge demand to travel around it aswell. The stats are in platform for change, there is significant demand to travel between Tallaght, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown, Ballymun and the Airport. The density in these areas is increasing all the time, notice the high rise apartment blocks being built in Tallaght and Blanchardstown lately.

Also Metro West will provide excellent integration with the other transport modes in the city. It will interchange with the Tallaght Luas, the Kildare line, the Lucan Luas and the Maynooth line.

dmeehan

in the pdf listed above, it says that the line will start off like luas, and can be upgraded if neccessary (where have we heard that before!)

does this mean that the "trams/trains" will only run from tallaght to the junction with metro north, or will they continue on into the city centre on the metro route?

strassenwolf

mickoneill30 wrote:

It's not just connecting the west towns though is it. I live in Swords. Sometime in the future far far away, I'll be able to get a train from Swords -> Tallaght or Blanchardstown. These and other trips like it are destinations I and many other people who are sitting on the M50 use every day. To get a bus now to those places is a major pain in the ass and not viable for me currently.

Mick, from Swords you'll be able to get a metro into town and a LUAS out to Tallaght. Many people in areas of the city with much higher density than along the metrowest route will still be struggling to do the most basic job of geting into town on the bus.

Some cities, have orbital routes, but they do not tend to get built until the issue of getting people to the busiest areas has been dealt with. Most cities do not have orbital routes.

The plan in Dublin is to open large parts of the metrowest before the metronorth route has opened.

SeaSide

strassenwolf wrote:

Some cities, have orbital routes, but they do not tend to get built until the issue of getting people to the busiest areas has been dealt with. Most cities do not have orbital routes.

Most cities would have things like schools, amenities and transport links in place before an area was allowed to become busy

Ice_Box

I think maybe they could try putting busses on the route first to see if people use it. Something like this is needed because the city center is too packed with busses and luassasas and trains.

Slice

SeaSide: Most cities would have things like schools, amenities and transport links in place before an area was allowed to become busy

Sorry SeaSide, but I'm not understanding your point. Whatever amenities these busy area may or may not have doesn't really take away from the argument that these busy areas should be served first - I think in Mick's case he means the city centre, no?

The point that's self-evident on the RPA's public consultation document is that for large sections of the line it travels through areas that are not near to any population centre. The lack of people living in the catchment area isn't going to be off-set by park&ride facilities alone. It begs the question; why is Metro West not travelling through high density areas so as to serve existing communities? There is the potential danger that it will only create more badly planned communities in the sparsely populated areas it'll run through.

When there is so much hoopla made over the 'viability' of proposed railway infrastructure (in terms of how many people it's likely to serve etc) it makes you wonder if somebody took their eye off the ball on this one. I know Platform for Change statistics show that the number of journeys between the western suburbs to be on the increase from the rise in car journeys on the M50 etc but at the same time nothing has been done to address this situation with 'quick-win' solutions such as the provision and licensing of more bus routes betweens these neighbourhoods - of course the M50 is as bad as it is now when nothing is done on the public transport side to relieve the situation.

Victor

Slice wrote:

There no such thing as public transport serving radial routes at present. Dublin Bus and the DTO pay lip-service to the idea but take a look at any radial bus route timetable and you'll see it's pretty sparse - I'm thinking the number 75, the 114. It seems such an obvious option to improve radial bus routes but it's not happening in favour of what will turn out to be far costlier and less flexible.

Are you confusing radial with orbital / cross-radial?

Slice

You know what: I am and I didn't even notice :eek:... how mortifying

Victor

Quick! Edit!

Enigma365

People obsess too much on the difference between the names, luas and metro. They are not that different. The green line south of Charlemont is basically a metro line, in the same way as metro-west will likely be. Even Metro-north is going to be much more of a light-rail line than say the Dart, which is very much heavy-rail.

I imagine that when metro-north and metro-west are finished, they will use a common naming scheme for all luas and metro lines. (Luas and Luas-Metro perhaps)

aliveandkicking

Slice and Strassenwolf one question - have you any idea what a nightmare it is to drive out of Tallaght, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown during the rush hour(s)? Really the only way to solve this chronic congestion is to build a rail link serving west Dublin i.e. Metro West. Buses just don't have the capacity.

Don't just be thinking of this as an A to B line - thinking who wants to travel between Blanchardstown to Tallaght? It's not just serving passengers who want to travel along the route, it's serving thousands of commuters who live in west Dublin but work along the Metro North line, the Luas Red Line, the Kildare DART line to Balbriggan and the Maynooth DART to Bray. Don't you see that Metro West will offer a one change solution to almost everywhere on the DART/Luas/Metro network offering a real alternative to the car to the thousands of people who sit in their cars 3+ hours per day commuting to west Dublin.

I agree in principle that there are higher density areas within the Dublin City area which will not be served by rail however if you examine where the majority of congestion and traffic originates from in Dublin city you will find that much of it originates outside the M50 (Check with the DTO if you don't believe me). If you stop cars coming into the city from outside the M50 by building things such as Metro West and providing large park and ride sites on it you by default solve a lot of the city's traffic problems.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/9353189?view=Eircomnet

Proposals for Metro West unveiled
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 22nd November, 2006

Minister for Transport, Martin Cullen, has announced the proposed routes and launched the consultation process for the second phase of the Metro which will serve west Dublin and connect with the Metro North to Dublin Airport.

The two proposed routes will branch off the Metro North line at the Metro Park station south of Dublin Airport. Minister Cullen described the new route as a much needed orbital route which would provide "a public transport alternative to the M50" which would significantly increase the connectivity of the current public transport system.

Route 1 would then follow the line of the M50 until it branches off to serve Blanchardstown town centre, Liffey Valley Shoppping Centre, Clondalkin Village and terminating in Tallaght village near the current end of the Luas Red Line.

The second proposed route would serve Blanchardstown Institute of Technology, Blachardstown town centre, skirt east of Lucan town centre before following the new Outer Ring Road to finish in Tallaght.

Both route options would interchange with Iarnrod Eireann's Kildare and Maynooth commuter lines and Railway Procurement Agency chief executive Frank Aiken stressed that the final route was likely to be a mixture of both proposals based on the consultation process.

It is hoped that the new line which will be between 24 and 28 kms long will be completed in 2014 with construction taking four to five years.

The RPA hopes that process would be completed "as early as possible in the New Year" and when completed an appication for a Railway Order would be submitted to the Minister for Transport within 12 months.

Minister Cullen declined to give an estimated cost of the new Metro as it will be built using a public private partnership agreement.

Victor

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=8506&lang=ENG&loc=1892

Cullen announces Metro West consultation process and route options
Break line image
22 November 2006

Transport Minister, Martin Cullen TD today (Wednesday 22 November 2006) announced the second phase in the development of a Metro system for Dublin - the route options and consultation process for Metro West.

The project, which is part of the Governments investment programme for transport - Transport 21 - has two broad route options. These options have been identified by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA). Metro West will start in Tallaght, moving through Clondalkin, Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown linking with Metro North south of Dublin Airport.

While both Metro West options cover the areas mentioned above, they are both distinct routes. Route Option 1 starts in Tallaght on the Belgard Road serving Tallaght Institute of Technology, The Square and Tallaght Village. It also serves Clondalkin Town Centre, Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown Town Centre. Route Option 2 starts at the Tallaght stop of the existing Luas Red Line. It runs along the Luas Line as far as Cookstown Road. It then follows the outer ring road north to Kingswood where it crosses the Naas Road. It travels through Grange Castle and Clondalkin, serving the Blanchardstown Town Centre and the Blanchardstown Institute of Technology.

Two options are also being considered to allow Metro West passengers access to the airport and Swords. The first is that the Metro West service would run directly on to Metro North, i.e. sharing the track, and on to the airport. The second option would be for passengers to transfer from Metro West on to Metro North at the Metro Park stop.

It is anticipated the final route track may run up to 28 kilometres. Preliminary forecasts suggest that Metro West when complete, will carry up to 20 million passengers a year.

The RPA will consult with people living and working along the proposed routes - members of the public, public representatives, agencies and local authorities. A published newsletter is available from the RPA with the route options outlined and public meetings will be organised in January. (RPA contact details below). The route finally selected may be a variation or a combination of the route options, or other options identified during the consultation. A number of sub-options are also offered.

Minister Martin Cullen said today: "I encourage the people of Dublin to express their views during the consultation phase so as to ensure that they can be taken into account in the future development of the project. The consultation process should identify any significant issues of concern to local people along the route and other stakeholders. The intention is that these can be dealt with at an early stage rather than emerging for the first time at a public inquiry stage and delaying progress on the project. I understand that a preferred alignment will be identified in 2007, taking into account the outcome of the RPAs public consultation".

The Minister added: "Today is another important step in the progress of Transport 21. Last month I announced the preferred route for the first phase of the Metro network - Metro North from Dublin city centre to north of Swords in County Dublin. I am pleased to be here today to launch this further step in the development of the Metro system the suggested routes and the public consultation process for Metro West".

Minister Cullen continued: "West Dublin has seen some of the most intense growth in housing and other development in the last decades. This has resulted in large demand for travel to and from and within the area. Metro West will aim to connect key towns in the West of Dublin serving existing and new communities. There will be interconnectivity on the route, with Metro West linking with the Tallaght Luas line, the Kildare and Maynooth rail lines, the proposed Lucan Luas, Metro North and many bus routes".

Metro West will run on the surface and the tracks will be separate from road traffic. It will cross road junctions in a similar manner to Luas, although bridges will be required at major roads, railways and other crossings.

Construction of Metro West is due to be complete in 2014, subject to the successful obtaining of a Railway Order from An Bord Pleanála. It is estimated that construction of Metro West will take up to five years.

....

For specific details on the Railway Procurement Agency consultation process, please see: http://www.rpa.ie/ or freephone 1800 67 64 64.

For more information please see attachment below.

1. Dublin Metro West Route Options

2. Dublin Metro West Map

mackerski

strassenwolf wrote:

Mick, from Swords you'll be able to get a metro into town and a LUAS out to Tallaght.

Not good - doing the whole length of the Luas red line takes far too long. Furthermore, you're generating more transit traffic in the middle of O'Connell St. The trick to boosting the capacity of the city's public transport is to keep people the hell out of An Lár unless they really want to be there. A circular rail line (and it doesn't matter a whole lot to the building costs whether it's for big "Metro" trams or smaller "Luas" ones) is a creative way of allowing people in most of the outer suburbs to reach not only each other, but also any point reachable on the 3 mainline rail lines that it will cross - and all of this without cluttering the city centre.

You'll also notice that the alignments (especially the further-out one) spend a lot of time crossing open country, which is cheaper to build on.

Dermot

strassenwolf

aliveandkicking wrote:

...Strassenwolf one question - have you any idea what a nightmare it is to drive out of Tallaght, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown during the rush hour(s)?

Thankfully I do not have to experience it very often, but I have been on the M50 at rush hour and I also have read several of the threads on here relating to the M50. I am aware that conditions are usually extremely poor.

aliveandkicking wrote:

Really the only way to solve this chronic congestion is to build a rail link serving west Dublin i.e. Metro West. Buses just don't have the capacity.

The number of buses which travel between Clondalkin/Tallaght and Blanchardstown, is fairly limited. The level of service offered on the 76A or 239, for example, do not indicate that there's enormous demand. As Slice pointed out above, it's not clear that the bus option has been properly examined. It's also possible that the upgraded M50 could be used in a sensible way to facilitate bus use.

aliveandkicking wrote:

Don't just be thinking of this as an A to B line - thinking who wants to travel between Blanchardstown to Tallaght? It's not just serving passengers who want to travel along the route, it's serving thousands of commuters who live in west Dublin but work along the Metro North line, the Luas Red Line, the Kildare DART line to Balbriggan and the Maynooth DART to Bray.

All very true. My question was, and is, what about people who live in higher density areas of the city which will not be getting the metro or the LUAS for many years, it seems? How do they connect to all these services?

aliveandkicking wrote:

I agree in principle that there are higher density areas within the Dublin City area which will not be served by rail however if you examine where the majority of congestion and traffic originates from in Dublin city you will find that much of it originates outside the M50 (Check with the DTO if you don't believe me).

There is no need to check with the DTO. It is pretty clear that a lot of the traffic on the M50 is made up of commuters who reach the M50, travel a couple of interchanges along it and come off at the most convenient location for them. I would think that the metrowest will be of limited use to such people if they have to drive to the metrowest, get on the tram, then change again if they want to get into the city. And, plain and simple, most commuters are trying to get into the city.

aliveandkicking wrote:

If you stop cars coming into the city from outside the M50 by building things such as Metro West and providing large park and ride sites on it you by default solve a lot of the city's traffic problems.

The most effective way to stop cars coming into the city is if you make maximum use of the train lines coming into the city. Proper park and ride facilities along the upgraded Kildare line or Maynooth line, and plenty of trains on these lines. Then people don't have to pfaff around with the Metrowest at all. They can just go directly into town. Plain and simple.

strassenwolf

mackerski wrote:

Not good - doing the whole length of the Luas red line takes far too long.

For Mick to travel from Swords to Tallaght he has to get to Ballymun on the metro. Either way. He could then stay on the metro to O'Connell Street and then have a journey of approximately 14 km on the LUAS. Or he could change onto the metrowest and have a journey of 24-28 km to get to Tallaght. Hmmm. It's not clear that there'd be a whole lot in it.

There may certainly not be enough in it to justify building the orbital line for what may be a relatively small number of people, when more could be achieved for more people by building a line or lines which go directly into the city.

mackerski wrote:

Furthermore, you're generating more transit traffic in the middle of O'Connell St. The trick to boosting the capacity of the city's public transport is to keep people the hell out of An Lár unless they really want to be there.

I wouldn't be sure that that is the trick. If it was the trick, wouldn't more cities have developed orbital routes? Very few actually have. In fact, in a very large number of cities, quite possibly the majority that have metro systems, interchanges are typically fairly central.

I wouldn't use London as an example for Dublin, but as it a city which is probably known by everybody on the board it can be used to illustrate an important point. All bar one of the lines on the London Underground travel into "Central London", either the City or the West End. Interchanges are by and large in Central London. This is an arrangement which seems to work well, as that's where most people are headed. A basic arrangement replicated all over the world in cities which are larger and smaller than London.

Of course, it's also worth pointing out that the one underground line which does not go into "Central London" is the one which enjoys the lowest patronage of all the lines.

mackerski wrote:

You'll also notice that the alignments (especially the further-out one) spend a lot of time crossing open country, which is cheaper to build on.

I had certainly noticed that it is large chunks of open country, with very low population densities. It'd be cheap, but if a proper alignment is preserved it should still be relatively cheap to build if it ever really becomes a priority. It is not a priority now.

aliveandkicking

Strassenwolf I am going to have to agree to disagree with you on this one I'm afraid.

I see the merits of Metro West, you disagree and thats fair enough, you have made some good points but I still feel Metro West is a great idea and obviously the professional transport planners who's job it is to decide these things do too.

One last point though you refer to "higher density" areas who will not be served by rail. I presume you mean in South Dublin between the red and green Luas lines? The thing is I don't think the likes of Templeogue, Terenure, Kimmage, Harold's Cross etc. are particularly high density, in fact the vast majority of dwellings in these areas are traditional low density housing. However along the metro west route you have Tallaght which is now full of high rise apartment blocks, Dublin 15 which also has tons of high density apartment complexes and Ballymun where they are in the middle of a massive regeneration building high density housing. So Metro West is not as low density as you may think. The RPA estimate Metro West will have 20 million passengers per year - as many as the red and green Luas lines combined.

Put it this way what do you think will remove more cars from Dublin City - Metro West or a line running through Templelogue-Terenure-Harolds Cross-City Centre?

Now onto the real point of this thread, which route is best? I feel Route 1 (brown line) would be the better route of the two as it serves more populous areas than Route 2 (green line) and serves The Square, Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown shopping centres as well as the National Aquatic Centre and James Connolly Hospital.

murphaph

aliveandkicking wrote:

However along the metro west route you have Tallaght which is now full of high rise apartment blocks, Dublin 15 which also has tons of high density apartment complexes and Ballymun where they are in the middle of a massive regeneration building high density housing.

Exactly, People are constantly underestimating the density and rapid densification of West Dublin and the north fringe. This is common sense-much of it remained undeveloped while the southside (and certain parts like [greater] Lucan) were being covered in semi-d's. Now that the economics have turned and no developer in his right mind would build anything but apartments, the tracts of land are seeing massive high density development taking place. D15 alone is heaving under the strain of the densities being built right now-all along the railway from Royal Canal Bank, Rathborne, Windmill, Woodbrook and of course the SDZ at Hansfield. The same is being experienced at Adamstown/Balgaddy along the Grand Canal corridor. Tallaght is booming too. We are forgetting though that there are multiple centres of employment along this corridor too-the soon to be developed area around IKEA, the entirity of the Blanch area north of the N3 is predominantly industrial, the largest biopharma campus in Europe is being developed at Grange Castle-already home to the world's largest biopharma plant. The industrial areas of Tallaght are also well serviced by the proposed metroWest. As well as residential and employment push/pulls, we find the Blanchardstown and Tallght Institutes of Technology-both with ambitious expansion plans, two large hospitals at Blanch and Tallaght and of course, the largest employer in Fingal-Dublin Airport. All of this before you even talk about the fact that the proposed line will interchange with DART and Intercity Rail at up to 3 points, with metro North and Luas at Tallaght and I can't see metroWest being quiet in all honesty.

The lines between Luas and metro are so blurred right now. It's entirely possible metro trains/trams from metro North and West will be compatible and it may be possible to run Stephen's Green->Ballymun->Blanch->Tallaght or Swords->Ballymun->Blanch->Tallaght etc.

strassenwolf

aliveandkicking wrote:

I presume you mean in South Dublin between the red and green Luas lines? The thing is I don't think the likes of Templeogue, Terenure, Kimmage, Harold's Cross etc. are particularly high density, in fact the vast majority of dwellings in these areas are traditional low density housing.

The density in areas like Terenure and Harold's Cross is surprisingly high. It seems to be in or around 4,000 per square km. Finglas is another area which has a decent density. We're obviously not talking the Kowloon Walled City, but they're areas with perfectly respectable densities capable of supporting LUAS or metro lines.

aliveandkicking wrote:

However along the metro west route you have Tallaght which is now full of high rise apartment blocks, Dublin 15 which also has tons of high density apartment complexes and Ballymun where they are in the middle of a massive regeneration building high density housing. So Metro West is not as low density as you may think.

If things go to plan, D15 will have a very good connection with the city centre in a few years. As will Ballymun. Whatever happens with the metrowest project, Tallaght will not have a connection with the city centre which its size and importance would merit. It could have had a very good connection, but the plans for the city centre-Tallaght metro seem to have been put on the very long finger, if they even still exist. (I'd still say that the metro/LUAS connection at O'Connell Street is the best way to balance the needs of mickoneill30 and the other residents of the city).

aliveandkicking wrote:

Put it this way what do you think will remove more cars from Dublin City - Metro West or a line running through Templelogue-Terenure-Harolds Cross-City Centre?

Interesting one, this. I'd say the metrowest would actually remove more cars, as there may be a higher percentage of passengers in the above suburbs who currently struggle in on the bus. But I would guess that the Templeogue-Terenue-Harold's Cross line, particularly if it originated in Tallaght, would carry more passengers.

aliveandkicking wrote:

Now onto the real point of this thread, which route is best?

They're both poxy.:D

Navan Junction

Irish Times, 23rd Nov 2006

Failure to spell out the reasoning for Metro West undermines credibility of plan, writes Frank McDonald, Environment Editor.

On the long shopping list of projects in the Government's €34.4 billion Transport 21 investment programme, the biggest question mark hangs over Metro West, which would link Tallaght with Lucan, Clondalkin, Blanchardstown and Ballymun.

At present, there isn't even a bus service between these centres.

Now it is proposed to provide them with what the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) calls a "modern, attractive and highly accessible urban railway", which would have a capacity of 30,000 passengers per hour.

According to Minister for Transport Martin Cullen, "preliminary forecasts suggest that Metro West . . . will carry up to 20 million passengers a year". Yet we have not been told what the basis for these "forecasts" is or how much it will cost to realise them.

As in the case of Metro North, which would link Swords and Dublin airport with St Stephen's Green, no business case or cost-benefit analysis has been published for Metro West. Indeed, like every other element of Transport 21, this project is shrouded in secrecy.

Even calling it a "metro" is a misnomer. As Mr Cullen himself noted yesterday, it would run entirely on the surface, even crossing road junctions in a similar manner to the Luas, although bridges would obviously be required at major roads, railways and other crossings.

In effect, Metro West would be a souped-up version of the Luas. Even the computer-generated image issued by the RPA shows a fatter-looking tram at a street stop. By contrast, much of Metro North would run underground - like most "metros" worthy of the name.

Yet Metro West is now going to public consultation, and the RPA intends to make a decision on which route it would follow "early in the new year". Detailed design work would follow, with a view to submitting an application for a railway order "within a year".

Curiously, the half-orbital rail line is not due for completion until 2014, which would make it one of the last projects to be delivered under the Transport 21 timetable. Why it could take so long is a mystery, but the delay is presumably related to its procurement under a public-private partnership.

As for why it's needed, the Minister said west Dublin "has seen some of the most intense growth in housing and other development in the last decades [ and] this has resulted in large demand for travel to and from and within the area".

He might have mentioned that the proliferation of shopping centres, business parks and industrial estates in the M50 corridor is largely responsible for chronic congestion on the motorway that was originally meant to serve as a by-pass of Dublin.

But while the pace of development in west Dublin and beyond has been intense, it could hardly be called intensive. It has all the characteristics of a North American "edge city", which means that there would be long distances to get to "metro" stops.

If the shortest of the two route options is chosen, the proposed rail line could offer shopping centre excursions between The Square in Tallaght, Clondalkin town centre, Liffey Valley shopping centre, Blanchardstown centre and Ballymun town centre.

The M50 has been dubbed by economist Colm McCarthy as "Dublin's new main street", and Metro West would reinforce the edge city axis. It would also connect with Metro North, the Kildare and Maynooth rail lines, the Tallaght Luas line and the proposed Lucan Luas line.

With Metro North due to be completed in 2012 at a likely cost of €3.5-€4 billion, who can say that a government more strapped for cash than the present one would not pull the plug on Metro West?

Slice

aliveandkicking: Now onto the real point of this thread, which route is best?

As far as I'm aware there's been no discussion of the merits of Metro West before in this forum, and when compared to say Metro North there seems to be little consensus on it really.

I would say there's no argument about connecting Lucan, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown with some form of public transport but could the red-line spur not have been used to serve this function in some shape or form?

Also, why is Metro West being touted as metro when it's evidently more tram??

strassenwolf

Here's another piece from the Irish Times:

Today's Times wrote:

Cullen announces optional routes for metro line
John Downes

Details of two optional routes for Dublin's new Metro West line were unveiled by Minister for Transport Martin Cullen yesterday.

It is expected that the new orbital line, stretching from Tallaght to the Metro North line south of Dublin airport, but avoiding the city centre, will be overground. Construction is due to start in 2009, with a series of public consultation meetings commencing next January. It is expected to be completed by 2014.

It is hoped that a preferred route will be chosen by early next year, followed by further planning and selection of a public-private partnership (PPP) partner.

The service will accommodate an estimated 20 million passengers per year, while the length of the track could stretch to 28 kms, according to the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA).

As it is a PPP project, Mr Cullen yesterday declined to disclose how much it is expected to cost. But while land acquisition costs are a significant factor, he said it was necessary to take into account the overall project costs.

He pointed to the National Roads Authority's recent claim that the cost of building motorways here is approximately half the cost of building motorways in the UK.

"I think that (the 2014 timeline for completion) is quite satisfactory. If it can be done in stages or opened in stages, that will be done," Mr Cullen said. "The problem we have with a lot of the public transport systems that exist is that they all come into the city centre."

Frank Allen, chief executive of the RPA, said it did not have a preferred route. He also expected there would be little difference in the cost of acquiring land on either of the proposed routes.

Under the plans, any final route will link up with the recently announced Metro North line, either by sharing its track to the airport or by passengers transferring to the new northern line.

The first optional route would start on the Belgard Road in Tallaght, and would serve Tallaght IT, The Square shopping centre,Tallaght village, Clondalkin town centre, Liffey Valley and Blanchardstown town centre.

The second option commences at the Luas Red Line's Tallaght stop, continuing to Cookstown Road. It proceeds to Kingswood, crossing the Naas road to Grange castle, Clondalkin, the Blanchardstown town centre and Blanchardstown IT.

However, the final route may be a variation or combination of the two route options, other options or sub-options.

You gotta love this bit:

Martin Cullen wrote:

"The problem we have with a lot of the public transport systems that exist is that they all come into the city centre."

Is that really a good reason to be starting out with a new approach in Dublin?

Indeed, Dublin. That hotbed of good public transport planning.:rolleyes:

murphaph

Slice wrote:

I would say there's no argument about connecting Lucan, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown with some form of public transport but could the red-line spur not have been used to serve this function in some shape or form?

Also, why is Metro West being touted as metro when it's evidently more tram??

I don't get it-you suggest a heavy rail metro is OTT (which I believe to be the case) and then state that it's not heavy rail but a tram afterall, what's your point here?

I can understand why people unfamiliar with the densification of west Dublin might not see merit in metroWest, but I can see why an underground line from Tallaght via Kimmage to the city (DTO) could be useful at the same time. Perhaps come and visit places like Porterstown-the site of the future interchange between metroWest and Maynooth DART. On 3 corners of the intersection there are currently 2 large scale and 1 medium scale apartment blocks and on the 4th the only hold up is that Castlethorn Homes wants to go to 8 storeys and the council is saying 6 is enough. This isn't just semi-d land anymore. There isn't even a station on the EXISTING railway at this site to drive demand-it's just that the land was available and this is the type of dwelling that gets built in D15 etc. these days. The city itself should of couse be "consolidating" with much more infill HD living, but it isn't doing so at a fast enough pace and now we have indeed got people living and workng on this Fringe City (as Frank puts it). Many many people, probably many more than city workers realise, never go near 'town' except to socialise.

daymobrew

I think it is a tough call to decide which route is best.
Route 2 goes close to Citywest (though still a decent walk to any of the companies there) and right through the populous estates in Lucan. Citywest must have a large population so serving them would be good (though route 1+propose Citywest Luas might be better). If there is an interchange on the Kildare line (it should be DART to Hazelhatch when MetroWest is built), then it that line could be used to get to ParkWest.

Route 1 goes close to ParkWest Business Park, though still a decent walking distance.

To be awkward, I like route 1 south of the Kildare line as it takes in Clondalkin village, and route 2 north of the Kildare line as it passes through the highly populated Lucan estates.

Both pass right by my house near the Maynooth line so I'm happy

murphaph wrote:

only hold up is that Castlethorn Homes wants to go to 8 storeys and the council is saying 6 is enough.

Unfortunately An Bord Pleanala said that 8 was okay, though their conditions have required Castlethorn to redesign the site layout. Grrr.

Slice

murphaph: I don't get it-you suggest a heavy rail metro is OTT (which I believe to be the case) and then state that it's not heavy rail but a tram afterall, what's your point here?

I was referring to the Frank McDonald piece about Metro West being a "souped-up Luas".

Enigma365

All bar one of the lines on the London Underground travel into "Central London", either the City or the West End. Interchanges are by and large in Central London. This is an arrangement which seems to work well, as that's where most people are headed. A basic arrangement replicated all over the world in cities which are larger and smaller than London.

That isn't a great point, considering that Transport For London, are setting up the "London Overground" system next year to providwe an orbital rail route and to counter the problem, as they see it, of all lines going through central London.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-centre/press-releases/press-releases-content.asp?prID=886

OTK

Have to agree with strassenwolf. The demand for public transport between blanchardstown and tallaght seems low at the moment compared to the demand for public transport between any two disconnected Dublin suburbs within the M50. Is there even a bus service along this route? How often does it run if at all?

The argument that much of the route would run through open countryside sounds like a WRC argument.

I used to live near the North London Line, an orbital, grade-separated heavy rail commuter service, serving suburbs around 6-8km from London city centre. I hardly ever used it. It could only support 4 trains an hour and why would anyone want to travel from say Camden Road to Kensal Rise? Most times it was quicker to take a high frequency tube into town and change to another back out to the destination. Thats what edge suburbs need: quick ways to reach central hubs.

They can stick all the high density apartments they like around the stations but where will those people want to go in a hurry? A shopping mall 15km away with all the same outlets as the one 1km away?

As this goes ahead, I'd like to see it done with a PPP, with the builder relying on future fare revenue. That way, it will never get built.

Slice

OTK: I used to live near the North London Line, an orbital, grade-separated heavy rail commuter service, serving suburbs around 6-8km from London city centre. I hardly ever used it.

Yes I've lived near this line also and have had first hand experience of it - it's probably the best working example of why Metro West is an inferior concept compared to a line feeding into the city centre. I suppose justification of Metro West would mean justification for the WRC towards Sligo

What I anticipate with Metro West (and irrespective of what's being touted now) is that services would be infrequent at off-peak times.

If there was really such a huge demand at present why is public transport so limited at the moment??

aliveandkicking

Slice wrote:

As far as I'm aware there's been no discussion of the merits of Metro West before in this forum, and when compared to say Metro North there seems to be little consensus on it really.

I would say there's no argument about connecting Lucan, Clondalkin and Blanchardstown with some form of public transport but could the red-line spur not have been used to serve this function in some shape or form?

Also, why is Metro West being touted as metro when it's evidently more tram??

It was discussed before, in fact my first post in this thread was just a copy and paste of what I said in the previous thread here

What I meant when I said "now to the real point of this thread" was theres little point in us arguing over the merits of it because the decision is already made to build it, it's been announced and funding committed to it so the only thing worth discussing is which is the best route to build and should we be pushing the RPA to put some of it underground in locations such as Clondalkin Village and Blanchardstown and not to be stupid enough to cross the Naas Road at grade with traffic lights.

murphaph

OTK wrote:

Is there even a bus service along this route? How often does it run if at all?

Yes, the 76A. Not a great frequency, is it? I used to use it nonetheless a nd it is a tortuous circuitous route that zig-zags all across West Dublin-hardly a fair comparison with a frequent and direct north-south service, as proposed.

OTK wrote:

The argument that much of the route would run through open countryside sounds like a WRC argument.

Except the land beside the WRC will never be built upon and te land beside metroWest is already being built upon with high density housing.

OTK wrote:

I used to live near the North London Line, an orbital, grade-separated heavy rail commuter service, serving suburbs around 6-8km from London city centre. I hardly ever used it. It could only support 4 trains an hour and why would anyone want to travel from say Camden Road to Kensal Rise? Most times it was quicker to take a high frequency tube into town and change to another back out to the destination. Thats what edge suburbs need: quick ways to reach central hubs.

And I live in D15 and work in Lucan-I'd have to take a DART from Clonsilla to Pearse, then change for DART to Kishogue, or just get a tram across the Liffey to work in a few minutes. As it is I use 2 wheels cos a car would be insanity on the clogged roads of West Dublin.

OTK wrote:

They can stick all the high density apartments they like around the stations but where will those people want to go in a hurry? A shopping mall 15km away with all the same outlets as the one 1km away?

Ok, so you've completely ignored the vast amount of industry (as well as the largest employer in Fingal-the airport) along the M50 corridor, nevermind 2 of Ireland's largest hospitals and 2 institutes of technology. Also-these shopping malls are large employers-retail is labour intensive.

You know, for once, we appear to be at least partially building the infrastructure required to make people's lives less of a misery in advance of the housing, and people seem oppsed to it. Isn't that the current problem with the likes of Lucan-plenty of houses-no infrastructure.

Ste.phen

Surely an orbital (underground) metro, not too far inside the M50, intersected with spurs of metro/luas/DART/heavy rail would be ideal?

Something like the M50's relationship with the M1/N2/N3/M4, etc, but with rail lines?

It'd mean passengers from the suburbs wanting to go direct to city centre can do so, but can also change to an orbital route, then onto any other direct route if they're heading out of the city?

Maybe a direct orbital route isn't the answer, but i think some sort of line which meets up with multiple other forms of rail/luas at various points can only be a good thing (TM)

Ste.phen

I;ve just realised that the interconnector provides a sort of close-to-city orbital route, but i was thinking of something a little further out, and more of a complete loop

OTK

murphaph wrote:

Isn't that the current problem with the likes of Lucan-plenty of houses-no infrastructure.

No, the problem with Lucan is that housing for 33,500 people was built on 2,000 hectares, so you have a density of 17/hectare (7/acre) which cannot support public transport other than p&r radial. Every man woman and dog has a car in Lucan, and the next billion spent on the M50 will allow more of them to fit on to this artery whenever they need to get to the neighbouring suburb.

Adamstown is going to fit 25,000 people into 220 hectares; a density of 114/hectare or 45/acre and their houses will have the same value or more than the spaced out estates around them. Lucan is a giant waste of space. We haven't learnt anything because we are building mini Lucans outside every town in the country.

mackerski

There seems to be a lot of daft comment on this thread from people who usually seem to know better. There seems to be something imprinted on the Dublin psyche that says that a transport route is only useful if you can complete an entire journey on it without changing. Seen this way, Metro West has some appear but is certainly not compelling. But consider a person needing to get from the following parts of west Dublin to just about anywhere else:

* N Blanch industrial estates
* Any part of Clondalkin
* Most of Lucan
* Tallaght, in spite of the sightseeing red line

For clarity, let's assume the end destination isn't even on Metro West. It might be:

* Anywhere on the red line
* Anywhere on the Maynooth, Kildare or Drogheda heavy lines
* Anywhere on a bus route intersecting the MW
* Absolutely anywhere else not viable from a bus route directly serving the point of origin.

Any such journey will be transformed by MW and very few of them will require the passenger to traverse the city centre - two Good Things(tm).

You could provide some or all of these benefits with a different approach, but probably not for the cost of some cheap track over quite a bit of open country.

The point about circular routes on the London underground is also a bit off. London does have a circle line (in fact, it was their earliest underground line, built for the same reason as our interconnector). To be fair, part of it does traverse "The City", but at the time of its construction, linking the mainline railways was a strategic way of getting transit traffic out of the city centre.

Today, of course, the entire zone inside the circle line is criss-crossed by more direct routes, so you'd be unlikely to travel 180-degress on it, but I fear that Dublin is some way off from that.

Dermot

jjbrien

what a silly line go north towords the airport to go south west to blanch and then south to tallagt via quarryvale this line is complet rubish it would be better to upgrade the arrow to maynooth and have branches off that to the diffent places it needs to go. i must attend this meeting.

mackerski

jjbrien wrote:

what a silly line go north towords the airport to go south west to blanch and then south to tallagt via quarryvale this line is complet rubish it would be better to upgrade the arrow to maynooth and have branches off that to the diffent places it needs to go. i must attend this meeting.

Faced with such compelling logic I'm sure the crowd will see the wisdom of your proposal.

Dermot

jjbrien

mackerski wrote:

Faced with such compelling logic I'm sure the crowd will see the wisdom of your proposal.

Dermot

more likly they wont they live in cloud coko land

aliveandkicking

jjbrien wrote:

it would be better to upgrade the arrow to maynooth and have branches off that to the diffent places it needs to go.

Now that is a really silly idea. Just where do you propose all the trains from your new branches will go? Connolly is already overcrowded and Docklands will be full of trains from Navan and extra Maynooth trains.

OTK

mackerski wrote:

But consider a person needing to get from the following parts of west Dublin to just about anywhere else:

* N Blanch industrial estates

industrial estates built where land was cheap are not walkable. The are designed for cars and cannot be served by public transport unless they are zoned up to the bollix with multistorey flats etc. Even sandyford ind est has businesses located up to 20 minutes walk from the tram.

* Any part of Clondalkin

Clondalkin is nearly 9 square miles with 8 people living to the acre. Rail doesn't work at this density. You would need 10 stations to come close to serving the population of Clondalkin. In a grid.

For clarity, let's assume the end destination isn't even on Metro West. It might be:

* Anywhere on the red line
* Anywhere on the Maynooth, Kildare or Drogheda heavy lines
* Anywhere on a bus route intersecting the MW
* Absolutely anywhere else not viable from a bus route directly serving the point of origin.

Any such journey will be transformed by MW and very few of them will require the passenger to traverse the city centre - two Good Things(tm).

the bulk of these journeys will require a car at one end or the other or both (an impossibility by train). And if you have a car why take the train? After all, the new M50 will carry 200,000 vehicles per day.

The point about circular routes on the London underground is also a bit off. London does have a circle line (in fact, it was their earliest underground line, built for the same reason as our interconnector). To be fair, part of it does traverse "The City", but at the time of its construction, linking the mainline railways was a strategic way of getting transit traffic out of the city centre.

Today, of course, the entire zone inside the circle line is criss-crossed by more direct routes, so you'd be unlikely to travel 180-degress on it, but I fear that Dublin is some way off from that.

There is no comparison between the london circle line passing 1-2 miles from the city centre, consistently through high density areas filled with carless commuters and a line connecting a bunch of exurbs with near total car ownership.

Making people change in a central hub doesn't congest the city in the way that making them drive into the city does. It just means they cross an underground platform somewhere where they have multiple options for reaching the other connected suburbs.

Fratton Fred

Can someone explain a few things, I'm new here:D

Is this going to be above round or below it?

And if the new Luas green line is going down to Cherrywood, what is linking Cherrywood to Bray?

And, lastly, when will the Citywest Luas line be finished?


thanks.

Victor

Fratton Fred wrote:

Is this going to be above round or below it?

Much of it would be at ground level, probably a high level bridge across the liffey and individual other sections above or below ground for shortish disances.

And if the new Luas green line is going down to Cherrywood, what is linking Cherrywood to Bray?

B St. Stephen's Green to Sandyford
B1 Sandyford to Cherrywood
B2 Cherrywood to Bray

And, lastly, when will the Citywest Luas line be finished?

It will take a few years yet. check www.transport21.ie

PRman

It they are to go ahead with this they need to integrate it with the existing DART line. It should be extended to Howth Junction, Donaghmede where it would link up with the Dart LIne including both spurs to Howth and Malahide. It will then connect the South East and the North West of Dublin. I also think they should consider shifting the north suburban railine onto the metro north as this will connect belfast, drogheda, dundalk with the airport, etc. and also free capacity on the already overcrowded Dart line.

Fratton Fred

Victor wrote:

Much of it would be at ground level, probably a high level bridge across the liffey and individual other sections above or below ground for shortish disances.

why, why, why?

who on earth thought that the answer to Dublin's congested roads would be to put a glorified bus service that travels along/over those roads.

what logic is it that says "I know, we have a very badly congested junction at the M50/N7, so to make things better, we'll put a bloody tram on it???

is there a problem with digging big holes and puting trains in them?

Victor

PRman wrote:

I also think they should consider shifting the north suburban railine onto the metro north as this will connect belfast, drogheda, dundalk with the airport, etc. and also free capacity on the already overcrowded Dart line.

Can't be done. Completely different arrangements (gauge, power supply, stations ....).

markpb

PRman wrote:

I also think they should consider shifting the north suburban railine onto the metro north as this will connect belfast, drogheda, dundalk with the airport, etc. and also free capacity on the already overcrowded Dart line.

Good god no! The main reason the dart is a joke is because of the conflicts between Dart and Suburban/IC trains. Moving those services to Metro would make the Dart better (although with IR at the helm, I'm not sure they wouldn't mess that up) at the expense of making the Metro useless.

It should definitely be a long term goal to move the ICs onto their own network so the Dart can be made somewhat decent.