Who is at fault?

DanThe

Hi all,
Just a quick question that is annoying me, Let me set the scene......

I was driving to work this morning aroung 6 ish, there were no cars around me. no hassle just going along the M50 around Sandyford. I had the cruse control set at 100 in the 100Km/h limit, driving in the slow lane. Then I see a car in the slip road. It speeds up to my speed exactly and stays by my side. the slip road has another good 200M left so I do nothing (cruse still on). The other driver also did nothing and stayed right by the side of my car the whole lenght of the slip road. Well as the slip road ends they run out of room and swerve onto the hatching while blowing the horn and then swerve out just behind me flashing. They then overtake about 1km later.

So the question is what is going on? have I

A Been a bad driver

B Just encountered another physco

Your views are welcome

the_syco

F*ck them. They proberly expected you to back down, why, I don't know. Sounds like you were in the right, tbh.

Rabies

The driver on the slip road is joining your lane, they need to join at a safe time.
There is no obligation for cars in the left lane to move over for those joining, although it is usually done out of courtesy.

Well, that is my take on it.

Jip

You probbly should have just moved out to the outside lane out of courtesy and as it turns out, for safetys sake.

Joeface

aren't you suppose to move lanes to allow them to enter as long as it is SAFE to do so.

peasant

Well, you *could* have pulled over ...but you shouln't have to really in that situation.

The two cars are the only ones on the road, you're doing a constant speed while the other one is trying to merge.

How much easier can it be for him? All he needed to do was just lift off the gas for a second, let you go past and slide in behind you.

Lack of spacial awareness (in other words: not a clue !) on his behalf.

fletch

It is my understanding that the driver on the main carriageway has right of way....however out of courtesy I would have moved into the overtaking lane (if possible) to facilitate the other person merging.....either way, I would say you were well within your rights to do what you did

BrianD3

He was in the wrong. The fact that he started blowing his horn at you when he was in the wrong says a lot about him. He should have sped up or slowed down in order to merge in front or behind you. You were right to stay at the same speed as if you slowed down and he slowed down as well the two of ye would still be on a collision course. It is up to the merging driver to adjust his speed.

Traffic merging onto a motorway must give way to traffic already on the motorway. Even if the overtaking lane is empty, drivers travelling in the driving lane are under no obligation to alter their course and move into the overtaking lane to facilitate mergers. But because of (often misplaced) courtesy this has become the "done thing" so now merging drivers think that drivers on the m-way are obliged to let them in.

Mitch Connor

If you were doing 100 in the 100 zone, and the guy was behind you at first, he must have being going a good bit over 100 to end up beside you, so why he slowed down then to remain right beside you seems a bit odd. Granted, he was slowing to the speed limit (which he should have been doing anyway) but if he been doing the speed limit in the first place, or continued his speed until past you, the situation would have been avoided. Sounds like he was a tool to me.

Tabnabs

He was clearly in the wrong and sounds like a bit of an idiot.

However, just to clarify something, if it was the M50 slip road/on ramp at Sandyford then the limit is actually 120kph and the guy merging wasn't breaking any speed limit by pacing you at 100kph, just crap driving

fletch

Dyflin wrote:

He was clearly in the wrong and sounds like a bit of an idiot.

However, just to clarify something, if it was the M50 slip road/on ramp at Sandyford then the limit is actually 120kph and the guy merging wasn't breaking any speed limit by pacing you at 100kph, just crap driving

Does anyone else think that merging lane which merges first at Sandyford is quite short?

Wossack

If he merges infront of you, is that not him overtaking on the left? (sorry, is that a stupid question? )

DanThe

Cheers lads, thats what I was thinking.

It is the slip road just after the limit drops to 100 heading northbound. there are two slips here the other car was in the closest one so they still had another to go if they needed it!
It is just so annoying to get a muppet like this when there is so little traffic around. When it is busy, like on the way home I always facilitate people trying to merge by slowing slightly so they can merge in and we all get home.

fletch

DanThe wrote:

Cheers lads, thats what I was thinking.

It is the slip road just after the limit drops to 100 heading northbound. there are two slips here the other car was in the closest one so they still had another to go if they needed it!

Are you talking about the Balinteer junction at the top of the hill? here

peasant

Wossack wrote:

If he merges infront of you, is that not him overtaking on the left? (sorry, is that a stupid question? )

If he's way behind you as he gets onto the slip road and then accelerates like mad to slip in in front of you ...yes, that's overtaking on the left and unneccesary ...he should just slot in behind.

But if he is in front of you as he comes onto the slip there is no need to let you pass first before he joins the motorway.

simple, really

deman

Out of common courtesy, I would always pull over to the overtaking lane to let the car in the slip lane onto the motorway, as I would always expect another driver to do for me. The OP said there was only 2 cars there so there was no reason courtesy could have been shown here. The OP didn't do anything wrong but it can cause aggravating circumstances when you don't show courtesy to other drivers and that's why the other driver was so p***ed off.

DanThe

It's the one at the top of the hill heading northbound, Fletch You have way to much time on your hands!

Tabnabs

That's Ballinteer so, not Sandyford, definitely 100 kph (although you wouldn't believe it...)

It is short (and steep) but there is a second/climbing lane which is extra long for heavier vehicles to get up to speed. Lots of chances to merge.

fletch

DanThe wrote:

It's the one at the top of the hill heading northbound, Fletch You have way to much time on your hands!

Mad busy here in work

BrianD3

deman wrote:

Out of common courtesy, I would always pull over to the overtaking lane to let the car in the slip lane onto the motorway, as I would always expect another driver to do for me. The OP said there was only 2 cars there so there was no reason courtesy could have been shown here. The OP didn't do anything wrong but it can cause aggravating circumstances when you don't show courtesy to other drivers and that's why the other driver was so p***ed off.

No way. The OP had priority and the fact that there were only 2 cars on the motorway made it a trivial matter for the merging driver to merge without inconveniencing anyone. The merging driver showed an ignorance of the rules and a lack of courtesy by doing what he did.

No merging driver should "expect" any other driver to move into the overtaking lane to faciliate them. Also when you say you always pull into the overtaking lane to let mergers in I presume you also meant "when safe to do so without impeding drivers already in the overtaking lane".

Gregor Samsa

deman wrote:

The OP didn't do anything wrong but it can cause aggravating circumstances when you don't show courtesy to other drivers and that's why the other driver was so p***ed off.

The other driver wasn't showing any courtesy in un-necessarily trying to barge his way onto the Motorway, when he could have easily slowed down or speeded up a tad and merged properly. Why do you think his lack of courtesy somehow trumps the OP's, when the OP has the rules of the road on his side?

TouchingVirus

BrianD3 wrote:

No way. The OP had priority and the fact that there were only 2 cars on the motorway made it a trivial matter for the merging driver to merge without inconveniencing anyone. The merging driver showed an ignorance of the rules and a lack of courtesy by doing what he did.

No merging driver should "expect" any other driver to move into the overtaking lane to faciliate them. Also when you say you always pull into the overtaking lane to let mergers in I presume you also meant "when safe to do so without impeding drivers already in the overtaking lane".

Seconded! Don't worry about it OP, he was just being an ass

TouchingVirus

phutyle wrote:

The other driver wasn't showing any courtesy in un-necessarily trying to barge his way onto the Motorway, when he could have easily slowed down or speeded up a tad and merged properly. Why does his lack of courtesy somehow trump the OP's, when the OP has the rules of the road on his side?

sometimes people question themselves..especially if they are learners - i do it sometimes too, especially when somebody blows the horn at me

NeMiSiS

Why would you pull over to the overtaking lane? Is the other person cmopletly incapable of merging into traffic ? It causes totally unneccessary conjestion in the overtaking lane. The OP did nothing wrong, it is because so many people pull into the overtaking lane that the driver in the other car was probably under the impression that you should get the **** out of his way.

I can appreciate the courtesy, but it's totally misplaced. I am well capable of merging into traffic, safely. I do not need other motorists to change their posistioning for me.
TK

BrianD3

I see this sort of sh1t all the time. It is unbeliveable who bad people in this country are at merging. Take the Celbridge interchange on the M4 heading east. Big long downhill slip road, ample time for 99% of cars to get up to a decent speed before merging. Yet you still get idiots trying to merge into the side or front of your car when you're doing 120 km/h and they've doing 70 or 80 km/h and there are hundreds of metres of clear road in front and behind you for them to merge into . But no they want the EXACT piece of road that you're on and then flash/beep you for not facilitating them!

Sometimes I will give these morons a pre-emptive blast of the horn (to make them aware of my presence ) before they try merging into the side of my car

layke

Tbh from what I see on a daily basis, people in this country cannot merge.

Anyone who has the misfortune of being behind a pentioner in a Micra attempting to join the M50 knows what i'm talking about.

Thinking they are being 'safe' by joining a max speed 120Km/h road at 50km/h.

simple guide ::

Enter the on-ramp
Increase speed of vehicle to the speed of the traffic
Find an open spot.
Merge.

However seeing as this country does not teach you how to do this while paying for lessons nor is required during your test I cannot hold the people at fault.

DanThe

I suppose I wanted the general view on this, I have been driving 12 years now, But I would hate to think I am always right and I couldn't be mistaken in my understanding of some situations.
Thanks for your input everyone. The misplaced courtesy is annoying alright, But at least they are trying to be nice.

Seanie M

Rabies wrote:

The driver on the slip road is joining your lane, they need to join at a safe time.
There is no obligation for cars in the left lane to move over for those joining, although it is usually done out of courtesy.

There is an obligation... rules of the road.

Stark

Seanie M wrote:

There is an obligation... rules of the road.

Advanced driving instructors recommend it but I don't recall seeing anything about it in the RoR.

Driving in both Cork and Dublin, I noticed Dublin seems to have more of a slow mergers problem. I rarely have to move over when driving in Cork.

NeMiSiS

Seanie M

Section 10 of the ROR has no mention whatsoever of an obligation of the driver in the driving lane of the Motorway to move to the Overtaking lane. The Merging/Acceleration lane is there for that very reason. You gain sufficient speed to join and merge safely.

Read here : http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/rules-of-the-road.pdf . Motorway driving starts at page 75, read how to join and merge correctly.

And here : http://www.drivingschoolireland.com/motorway.html#3
TK

Jip

BrianD3 wrote:

Yet you still get idiots trying to merge into the side or front of your car when you're doing 120 km/h and they've doing 70 or 80 km/h and there are hundreds of metres of clear road in front and behind you for them to merge into . But no they want the EXACT piece of road that you're on and then flash/beep you for not facilitating them!

Sometimes I will give these morons a pre-emptive blast of the horn (to make them aware of my presence ) before they try merging into the side of my car

If you know there's traffic going to merge why not just give them the space to move in ? With your "pre-emptive" horn it sounds like you're almost looking for a confrontation.
If you had moved out everyone could have just continued on happily as they were doing, remember, there's no obligation for cars to do 120k either.

Duckjob

Suppose I was sitting, waiting to be let out of a side-road onto a main road in heavy traffic.

I might *expect* a particular car to slow down and let me out.

If they don't I might mutter 'thanks a bunch' under my breath. I won't start beeping my horn and throwing abuse at them.

The merger sounds like a ignorant *balix*

NeMiSiS

"If you had moved out everyone could have just continued on happily as they were doing, remember, there's no obligation for cars to do 120k either."

It's still down to knowing how to merge correctly. Why should anyone have to move to the overtaking lane to faciliate someone to merge onto a motorway ? If they are incapable of using the road correctly, then they should not on it.

TK

It BeeMee

Jip wrote:

remember, there's no obligation for cars to do 120k either.

Hmmmm. *some* people would have you believe that if you're not driving at (or above) the speed limit, you shouldn't be on the road.....


I think the OP is technically right in this case : it is up to the car coming onto the road to do so safely.

deman

BrianD3 wrote:

No way. The OP had priority

I didn't say the OP didn't have priority. Read my post again. I said that the OP did nothing wrong.

BrianD3 wrote:

Also when you say you always pull into the overtaking lane to let mergers in I presume you also meant "when safe to do so without impeding drivers already in the overtaking lane".

And of course that's what I meant.

phutyle wrote:

The other driver wasn't showing any courtesy in un-necessarily trying to barge his way onto the Motorway, when he could have easily slowed down or speeded up a tad and merged properly. Why do you think his lack of courtesy somehow trumps the OP's, when the OP has the rules of the road on his side?

I completely agree. The guy was an a$$hole.

So why is everyone trying to jump down my throat when I seem to be only one of the few drivers here that shows courtesy to other drivers!!

edit - and it's not only for the sake of courtesy. I don't know if this driver has seen me or not, so if he pulls out, he doesn't hit me.

BrianD3

deman wrote:

So why is everyone trying to jump down my throat when I seem to be only one of the few drivers here that shows courtesy to other drivers!!

How do you know it's courtesy? When merging I prefer if drivers already on the M-way keep a steady speed and stay where they are rather than jump into the overtaking lane to let me in. Often the drivers that move over end up getting "stranded" in the overtaking lane going slower than drivers who have just merged into the driving lane. Overtaking on the left is now a distinct possibility and both the merger and the "courteous" driver are annoyed.

The biggest courtesy that drivers on the mainline can show to mergers is
a) don't break the speed limit
b) leave sufficent space between you and the vehicle in front
c) use common sense and extra consideration if it's a HGV trying to merge

Hotblack Desiato

Jip wrote:

With your "pre-emptive" horn it sounds like you're almost looking for a confrontation.

Obviously you've never ridden a motorcycle.
The number of drivers who change lane without looking TO THEIR SIDE is incredible. Looking in your mirrors is never enough on its own. Not that I think too many Dublin drivers even bother with that.

If you had moved out everyone could have just continued on happily as they were doing, remember, there's no obligation for cars to do 120k either.

There is a phrase which describes expecting other drivers to move out of your way when you do not have right of way over them.
It is called 'driving without due consideration' and it is an offence.

Wishbone Ash

layke wrote:

simple guide ::

Enter the on-ramp
Increase speed of vehicle to the speed of the traffic
Find an open spot.
Merge

layke - many of us drive vehicles which are incapable of, or not legally permitted to drive at the maximum motorway speed limit. Trucks and single decker buses are limited to 80kph, double deck buses and vehicles towing another are limited to 64kph.

If I'm driving a truck at the limit (80kph) and the traffic on the motorway is doing 120kph, how do you suggest I "increase speed of vehicle to the speed of the traffic" to merge? If no one moves over to allow me in, do I go to the end of the slip road and stop? :eek:

Hotblack Desiato

Wishbone Ash wrote:

If no one moves over to allow me in, do I go to the end of the slip road and stop?

Yes, actually, until a safe gap emerges.
The alternative is to move into an unsafe gap and hope someone who you should be yielding to will chicken out.

deman

BrianD3 wrote:

Often the drivers that move over end up getting "stranded" in the overtaking lane going slower than drivers who have just merged into the driving lane.

I'm sorry for being so ignorant of the general meaning of this thread but I was talking about the OP's original situation.

DanThe wrote:

there were no cars around me.

Gregor Samsa

deman wrote:

So why is everyone trying to jump down my throat when I seem to be only one of the few drivers here that shows courtesy to other drivers!!

Because you said:

deman wrote:

but it can cause aggravating circumstances when you don't show courtesy to other drivers

Which to me sounded like a justification of the actions of the other driver. If not showing courtesy to someone (while following the rules of the road) causes that kind of aggressive behaviour, then other dirver has much more serious issues than not knowing how to merge peroperly.

Jip

ninja900 wrote:

Obviously you've never ridden a motorcycle.
The number of drivers who change lane without looking TO THEIR SIDE is incredible. Looking in your mirrors is never enough on its own. Not that I think too many Dublin drivers even bother with that.

Was the OP on a motorbike ?
I haven't said the OP was in the wrong but he obviously went out of his way to prove to someone that was in the wrong that they were in the wrong. He was aware the driver wasn't backing down either so all he simply had to do was move into the outside and continue on his way without trying to make a point.

And someone claimed that people who usually move into the outside in this case find themselves stranded out there. Don't think so, these people are probably more aware of their surroundings and find it quite easily to get back to where they want to.

And that's some assumption to make, everyone driving in Dublin are Dubs ?

DanThe

Jip wrote:

Was the OP on a motorbike ?
I haven't said the OP was in the wrong but he obviously went out of his way to prove to someone that was in the wrong that they were in the wrong. He was aware the driver wasn't backing down either so all he simply had to do was move into the outside and continue on his way without trying to make a point.

Well you are wrong there, As I said in my original post that I didnt do anything, just continued on my way along the MOTORWAY.

Jip

I know, but you were aware he was matching your speed along side you and wasn't going to back down. I find it hard sometimes myself when someones acting an eejit but in some instances such a this one it's better and safer just to let them on their way.

Hotblack Desiato

Jip wrote:

Was the OP on a motorbike ?

No, but you seemed to be criticising him for giving a 'pre-emptive honk'. That's the purpose of the horn - to warn other road users of your presence before a collision becomes inevitable
On a bike frequent use of the horn is essential in traffic because drivers simply don't look properly. If I followed your advice I wouldn't last long.

I haven't said the OP was in the wrong but he obviously went out of his way to prove to someone that was in the wrong that they were in the wrong.

He did nothing wrong, the other driver was entirely in the wrong, and giving in to bullies only encourages them. The OP has a duty to avoid a collision if at all possible, even if the other driver is in the wrong, but otherwise is under no obligation to give way to an aggressive, bullying, driver with a rather odd interpretation of the rules of the road.

He was aware the driver wasn't backing down either so all he simply had to do was move into the outside and continue on his way without trying to make a point.

Making a point is exactly the right thing to do.

Jip

Ninja, there was no inevitable collision, both were aware of each other but neither wanted to back down. As you said yourself, the OP has a duty to avoid a collision and he could have just simply moved to the outside and avoided making a point which you seem to think was the correct thing to do and saved the horn blowing and agravtion.

"If I followed your advice I wouldn't last long", what advice ? I didn't give you any.

Hotblack Desiato

Jip wrote:

Ninja, there was no inevitable collision, both were aware of each other but neither wanted to back down.

The Rules of the Road are very clear on who should have 'backed down' though and it wasn't the OP.

As you said yourself, the OP has a duty to avoid a collision and he could have just simply moved to the outside and avoided making a point

Yes, he could have, but why should he?
This is just another form of the thinking that some car drivers seem to have in relation to bicycle or motorbike incidents. "If they weren't there I wouldn't have hit them" - but they've a RIGHT to be there and a driver changing lanes has a duty to yield to all traffic in that lane

"If I followed your advice I wouldn't last long", what advice ? I didn't give you any.

The advice that horn blowing to warn someone who may be unaware of your presence is 'aggressive' and somehow wrong.

MercMad

The only reason there are rules of the roads, and guidlines, is to avoid accidents. If you can avoid an accident, or the possibility of one, then that is the safest and most sensible thing to do !

It is clear that the OP was NOT in the wrong however when dealing with an assh0le such as the guy trying to merge, you should compensate for his stupidity and take the safest course of action.

It is not up to anyone to teach lessons, make people wake up, or blow their horns at anyone else.

Assume everyone is an idiot and avoid everything you can !

IMO the government really need to launch a campaign informing people of how to drive on motorways, merge and negotiate roundabouts because clearly folk out there feel they now have some sort of right to vent their anger on the roads !

Dont forget they will be on our doorsteps before long !

Jip

ninja900 wrote:

The advice that horn blowing to warn someone who may be unaware of your presence is 'aggressive' and somehow wrong.

FFS, last time on this, both drivers were aware of each other, this thread has nothing to do with motorbikers and 'cagers' not being aware of them so get that chip off your shoulder, and regardless of who was in the right or wrong the matter could have easily been avoided.

This is like saying "Why didn't you avoid the car heading towards you on the wrong side of the road ", "Well, why should I have, he was obviously in the wrong and by the rules of the road I was in the right so I remained where I was to prove that point", "what about the motorbike then ? "

Mercmad, someone with a bit of common sense at last. There's alot of self righteousness on these boards when it comes to anything to do with driving.

MercMad

Mercmad, someone with a bit of common sense at last. There's alot of self righteousness on these boards when it comes to anything to do with driving

.........ohh yeah thats me !

Now.........out into the traffic to kick some a55 !!

TouchingVirus

Well lads,

I'm going to agree with Jip and MercMad on this one.

OP, never fear, you were entirely legal staying in position, and if that driver had merged into the side of your car you would have nothing to worry about. That driver sounds like an a$$hole who just doesn't know how to merge properly.

However, there's a courtesy there. If, for example, a truck was doing the 80kph it's allowed, and is running out of space on the slip and needs to merge, and you were in the driving lane, then while it's entirely legal to stay where you are, it's terribly inconsiderate to let him run out of lane and make him stop. Think about the amount of effort it's going to take for him to merge properly starting from stop..in somewhat moderate to busy traffic, that's going to take him a while - whereas all you had to do was show a little consideration and move over (obviously provided it's safe to do so) - almost effortless on your part but makes a huge difference to the other driver - so why not?

Then there's the case you were faced with, where the other driver was in a car and you both wern't backing down...There's an obligation to avoid an accident, or drive defensively. Would you stand your ground against a truck who was overtaking and was on your side of road and you saw he wasnt going to get back in before you collided with him? If you had the hard shoulder available would you think "Nah, i'm right, i'm going to stay here..the law is on my side"?

Let me tell you something, you can be right...but then you can be dead right...I'd prefer to know i was right without getting the chance to prove it in all circumstances