Very Narrow Miss!!

ruaneg

wow..ive just got in to work but tbh im really lucky...

I was doing around 40-50 coming up to a corner and started to gear down as normal..Maybe felt I was going a little quick (new tarmac on road - easy to not notice the speed) and suddenly the engine cut out and the steering locked!! If there was any traffic in front of me it would of being a seriously bad crash...

My first thought was a flat tire due to being unable to steer the car( ive only being driving 5 months) but while i was rolling over to the side of the road I noticed the engine was off. The wheel somehow unlocked again and thankfullt I came out unscathed...

Obviouly I need to bring it in to a garage,,but any ideas on what hapenned??

Stephen

Sounds like your power steering died when the engine stopped, doubt the steering actually locked, it'd just be a lot heavier.

Wishbone Ash

ruaneg wrote:

suddenly the engine cut out and the steering locked!!

If the key was not removed from the ignition, the steering shouldn't lock. Are you confusing the very heavy steering with steering lock?

ARGINITE

Sounds like a peugeot 206

ruaneg

yeah tbh it all happened very quickly - - it was only locked for a couple of seconds and then I was able to glide over to the side of the road..

why would the engine cut off like that...and it started up fine straight away everything seemed to be fine when driving the rest of the way into work..

ruaneg

its actually a 95 Honda Civic

milltown

Sounds more like a dodgy ignition switch/barrel to me. At 40 - 50 mph the amount of power assistance should be minimal enough to make it easy to tell the difference between "heavier" and "locked".

Is the car old or well used? Does it feel like there's a lot of free play when the key is in the ignition?

Wishbone Ash

ruaneg wrote:

im really lucky... ...felt I was going a little quick.... ....easy to not notice the speed... ....engine cut out and the steering locked... ... a seriously bad crash... .... first thought was a flat tire... ... ive only being driving 5 months... ... I noticed the engine was off.... ...wheel somehow unlocked again.... ...Obviouly I need to bring it in to a garage

Methinks it's a lack of driving experience??

ruaneg

milltown wrote:

Sounds more like a dodgy ignition switch/barrel to me. At 40 - 50 mph the amount of power assistance should be minimal enough to make it easy to tell the difference between "heavier" and "locked".

Is the car old or well used? Does it feel like there's a lot of free play when the key is in the ignition?

i thought the car was in decent nick...it hasnt had much work done too it from the service history ( one lady owner:) )...Ill check the key in the ignition, never noticed anything different before.

ruaneg

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Methinks it's a lack of driving experience??

Dont know, i consider myself a good driver although obviously not too experienced. But what could I of done wrongly to make the engine shut out.

Wishbone Ash

ruaneg wrote:

what could I of done wrongly to make the engine shut out.

Selecting a gear which is too high for the speed (eg 5th instead of 3rd). It could also be caused by dirty fuel.

ruaneg wrote:

i consider myself a good driver

Many of the young drivers killed on our roads each year considered themselves to be good drivers. At least that incident should be a valuable experience if you learn from it. I've been driving all categories of vehicles for 20 years and I don't consider myself to be a good driver. I'd say I'm average.

Big Nelly

ruaneg wrote:

Dont know, i consider myself a good driver although obviously not too experienced. But what could I of done wrongly to make the engine shut out.

The million doller question, could have been in wrong gear etc. Loads of reasons, what happened was when the car died you lost power steering. You should have restarted the car and steering would have returned. The steering didnt lock it just became very very heavy because the engine was dead. Also you dont need to remove the key for the power steering to die. I have tested this once when I was going down hill and turned off car with keys still in. Steering went dead till I restarted

There is no way you should even consider yourself a good driver when you don't even realise the engine is dead. Also you probably done something to cause the engine to die. Not knowing what you done makes it worse. Also if you are driving on a road and the car dies then why not hit the brakes???? saying if there was cars around there could have been a crash makes no sense. Hit the brakes and put on emergency light. Simple. To think there is loads of people like you on the road. No wonder there is so many deaths!!!:mad:

Edit, are you supposed to have a full license driver with you? are you on a prov license?

ruaneg

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Selecting a gear which is too high for the speed (eg 5th instead of 3rd). It could also be caused by dirty fuel.


Many of the young drivers killed on our roads each year considered themselves to be good drivers. At least that incident should be a valuable experience if you learn from it. I've been driving all categories of vehicles for 20 years and I don't consider myself to be a good driver. I'd say I'm average.

Well i was in 4th gear going to third like i normally do on that part of the road..I really dont think it was a mistake on my part.

it prob was a good thing too happen.... i agree on that..but im not a boyracer or anything (im 26) so Id like to thing im a reasonably careful driver..

fletch

Big Nelly wrote:

Also if you are driving on a road and the car dies then why not hit the brakes???? saying if there was cars around there could have been a crash makes no sense. Hit the brakes and put on emergency light. Simple.

Are you serious? Ever turn off your car and try braking, you need a lot more effort to bring the car to a stop. So even if he did hit the brakes, if there had of been more cars around a crash could have been very likely.

Wishbone Ash

Big Nelly wrote:

you dont need to remove the key for the power steering to die.

I stated that the steering would not LOCK if the key was not removed.

ruaneg

Big Nelly wrote:

The million doller question, could have been in wrong gear etc. Loads of reasons, what happened was when the car died you lost power steering. You should have restarted the car and steering would have returned. The steering didnt lock it just became very very heavy because the engine was dead. Also you dont need to remove the key for the power steering to die. I have tested this once when I was going down hill and turned off car with keys still in. Steering went dead till I restarted

There is no way you should even consider yourself a good driver when you don't even realise the engine is dead. Also you probably done something to cause the engine to die. Not knowing what you done makes it worse. Also if you are driving on a road and the car dies then why not hit the brakes???? saying if there was cars around there could have been a crash makes no sense. Hit the brakes and put on emergency light. Simple. To think there is loads of people like you on the road. No wonder there is so many deaths!!!:mad:

Edit, are you supposed to have a full license driver with you? are you on a prov license?

First I dont appreciate the tone, I often notice on boards.ie how easily some people jump at the chance to patronize and attack people.

This was a split second occurence ,,i was obvioulsy able to get the steering under control and put the handbrake on to steer the car to the side of the road. I think I did OK considering. As for me me claiming im a good driver and ive only 6 months experience,, well i mean a good driver for somebody who has 6 months experience.

Big Nelly

fletch wrote:

Are you serious? Ever turn off your car and try braking, you need a lot more effort to bring the car to a stop. So even if he did hit the brakes, if there had of been more cars around a crash could have been very likely.

Hence why I said hit the emergency lights. This would warn the drivers and there should be no problem using the brakes when the car dies. Alot more efford? all you need to do is push the peddle. Its takes alot more efford to steer than brake when the engine has died

I stated that the steering would not LOCK if the key was not removed.

I wasnt quoting you now was I so why do you think I was refering to your comments???

peasant

While you had the clutch depressed, for some reason your revs went right down and the engine died ...resulting in loss of all power assistance to brakes and steering.

My suspicion is though, that you did not feel the effects of "heavy" steering (and it certainly wasn't locked) but something more frightening happened.

While you pressed the clutch and the engine died, you had the wheels turned into the corner. Then you let the clutch snap out again, locking the wheels against the the dead engine. Had the wheels been pointing straight, your engine probably would have been restarted, but with the wheels at a turn and the slippery new road surface they could not get enough grip and locked up, skimming over the road surface.

so your steering wasn't locked ...you were simply skidding out of control:eek:

fletch

Big Nelly wrote:

Hence why I said hit the emergency lights. This would warn the drivers and there should be no problem using the brakes when the car dies. Alot more efford? all you need to do is push the peddle. Its takes alot more efford to steer than brake when the engine has died

I am not disputing the fact that it is more difficult to steer when the car is powered off but similarly it is also more difficult to brake and in that vein, ruaneg was correct in his assertion that things could have been a lot worse had there been more traffic about.

kensutz

ARGINITE wrote:

Sounds like a peugeot 206

Exactly what happened to my 206

fletch

Did you actually make the change from 4th to 3rd quickly or did you coast down the road for a bit?
On occasion, my old car used to stall if I coasted to a stop.

Big Nelly

fletch wrote:

I am not disputing the fact that it is more difficult to steer when the car is powered off but similarly it is also more difficult to brake and in that vein, ruaneg was correct in his assertion that things could have been a lot worse had there been more traffic about.

Thats why you have emergency lights! they are not just on the car for Xmas!!

ruaneg

Big Nelly wrote:

Hence why I said hit the emergency lights. This would warn the drivers and there should be no problem using the brakes when the car dies. Alot more efford? all you need to do is push the peddle. Its takes alot more efford to steer than brake when the engine has died


I wasnt quoting you now was I so why do you think I was refering to your comments???

tbh hitting the emergency lights in the 2-3 secs when the car went out of control was the last thing on my mind i was more concerned with not crashing...

ruaneg

fletch wrote:

Did you actually make the change from 4th to 3rd quickly or did you coast down the road for a bit?
On occasion, my old car used to stall if I coasted to a stop.

I changed the gear to 3rd fairly quickly if i remember correctly although it happened very quickly so i cant be too sure.

Big Nelly

ruaneg wrote:

I changed the gear to 3rd fairly quickly if i remember correctly although it happened very quickly so i cant be too sure.

This is about the 3rd or 4th post where you mentioned you cant be sure what happened. Again I will ask are you on a prov license and are you supposed to have a full license driver with you?

Lucifer

fletch wrote:

I am not disputing the fact that it is more difficult to steer when the car is powered off but similarly it is also more difficult to brake and in that vein, ruaneg was correct in his assertion that things could have been a lot worse had there been more traffic about.

yes this is correct. the brakes would require alot more effort than normal as they use a servo which uses a vacuum from the inlet manifold to assist in braking.

ruaneg

Big Nelly wrote:

This is about the 3rd or 4th post where you mentioned you cant be sure what happened. Again I will ask are you on a prov license and are you supposed to have a full license driver with you?

I dont know what your problem is but i dont appreciate the attitude. I say i cant be sure because it happened very fast. Im sure anyone whos being in a situation like this can appreciate that its natural to panic a little and it becomes a bit of a blur.

Too answer your question im on my 2nd prov and ive never had a crash. I believe if youve on your second prov you can drive on your own, no?

Fey!

Selecting the wrong gear at 40 shouldn't cause the engine to die completely.

Also, with the engine off, braking becomes very heavy and you need to put a lot more pressure on the pedal.

And dirty petrol should have caused spluttering before the engine died.

OP - can't think why the engine would have stopped without warning unless the ignition switched it off.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

While you had the clutch depressed, for some reason your revs went right down and the engine died ...resulting in loss of all power assistance to brakes and steering.

My suspicion is though, that you did not feel the effects of "heavy" steering (and it certainly wasn't locked) but something more frightening happened.

While you pressed the clutch and the engine died, you had the wheels turned into the corner. Then you let the clutch snap out again, locking the wheels against the the dead engine. Had the wheels been pointing straight, your engine probably would have been restarted, but with the wheels at a turn and the slippery new road surface they could not get enough grip and locked up, skimming over the road surface.

so your steering wasn't locked ...you were simply skidding out of control:eek:

yeah i'd agree with the P'meister say it might have been dropping a gear too early maybe and the wheels locking up for a split second which also cut your engine

start practicing your heel toeing!

peasant

Fey! wrote:

OP - can't think why the engine would have stopped without warning unless the ignition switched it off.

A fault in the engine management can cause this.

Had the same problem on an old Saab of mine once. Every time you went off the gas, the revs went right down. Sometimes it would catch itself and get the revs up to idle again, sometimes it would just die.

For some reason, when it went down and up again it did it at a sort of leasurely pace, when it died it did so very suddenly and quickly.

Took several visits to the garage to sort that one out...

fletch

peasant wrote:

A fault in the engine management can cause this.

Had the same problem on an old Saab of mine once. Every time you went off the gas, the revs went right down. Sometimes it would catch itself and get the revs up to idle again, sometimes it would just die.

For some reason, when it went down and up again it did it at a sort of leasurely pace, when it died it did so very suddenly and quickly.

Took several visits to the garage to sort that one out...

My old Escort did this for about a week after I had the battery disconnected (ECU reset itself). It would drop to 500rpm and on two occasions the engine stalled, a good lesson on why not to coast.
@Big_Nelly -> Even if the OP did have a fully licensed driver with him/her it is very unlikely that they would have been any help in this particular instance.

ruaneg

it may be coincedental but I only brought the car into the garage last week for a battery change..never had a problem before.

unnameduser

surprise surprise.. f*** sake...some ppl jump at the opportunity to attack the OP. The OP didnt was asking for suggestions as to why the car might have died. Im sure the OP was looking for the usual...lack of driving experience, no licenced driver. Yes these are other issues but start your own thread on that

Mr Magnolia

unnameduser wrote:

surprise surprise.. f*** sake...some ppl jump at the opportunity to attack the OP

<applauds>


OP, take the car to the garage.

peasant

ruaneg wrote:

it may be coincedental but I only brought the car into the garage last week for a battery change..never had a problem before.

It might be a likely explanation ...ECU reset/fault like fletch says.

Get it checked pronto anyway.

A tip for the future: if you ever loose control over the steering again on a front wheel drive car (for whatever reason ...stalled engine, ice, aquaplaning)

PRESS THAT CLUTCH AND KEEP IT PRESSED

That way you will remove all engine related forces (acceleration or engine breaking) from your tyres which in turn makes it easier for them to regain or maintain grip ....no steering without grip.

Also keep your steering movements light, no sawing at the wheel and unless you have ABS be tender with the brakes as well.

zilog_jones

Fey! wrote:

OP - can't think why the engine would have stopped without warning unless the ignition switched it off.

I've only been driving about 2 months, and frequently stall my car when coasting to a stop (like at a crossing or traffic lights). It's usually because I go on the clutch too late... I think. However, I can always tell when it stalls - the battery and oil lights come on, and any other lights will dim when it's about to go. There's also the fact it's a pushrod so it's pretty easy to notice when the engine's not making noise

If a car stalls when coasting, is it OK to go off the clutch to get it going again or is it best to just use the starter?

ruaneg

appreciate the friendly advice guys..Ill ring them up today and see what they say!!
I can guess though.

Its a shame that posters like Big Nelly :rolleyes: give boards.ie such a bad impression to new people. I cant help but notice you have over 5000 posts which may explain lack of civility and social skills.

(Sorry couldnt help myself) I wont be coming back.

Wishbone Ash

zilog_jones wrote:

I've only been driving about 2 months, and frequently stall my car when coasting to a stop.

If a car stalls when coasting, is it OK to go off the clutch to get it going again or is it best to just use the starter?

You should not be coasting to a stop. It's bad driving habit and if you do it in a driving test, the tester won't be impressed. To answer your question, I would start it off the clutch as it's quicker (although I can't remember the last time it happened to me). I presume in a test situation, you would be expected to stop the vehicle, apply handbrake and restart if it is safe to do so (but I'm open to correction).

Big Nelly

ruaneg wrote:

appreciate the friendly advice guys..Ill ring them up today and see what they say!!
I can guess though.

Its a shame that posters like Big Nelly :rolleyes: give boards.ie such a bad impression to new people. I cant help but notice you have over 5000 posts which may explain lack of civility and social skills.

(Sorry couldnt help myself) I wont be coming back.

Sorry for asking a few questions.

peasant

zilog_jones wrote:

If a car stalls when coasting, is it OK to go off the clutch to get it going again or is it best to just use the starter?

Depends very much on how well you know what you're doing ...

Engage the clutch with too much verve while in the wrong gear and possibly the wrong accelerator postion ...and you could either block the wheels and skid or make an almighty jolt forward.

Safest option is to switch on warning lights, keep the clutch pressed, break,come to a standstill and restart car as normal.

Having done that a few times during rushour, the friendly drivers all around you should have taught you not to do it again

Wishbone Ash

ruaneg wrote:

Its a shame that posters like Big Nelly :rolleyes: give boards.ie such a bad impression to new people. I cant help but notice you have over 5000 posts which may explain lack of civility and social skills.

(Sorry couldnt help myself) I wont be coming back.

Everyone has their bugbears - I've a few myself. Don't let that put you off further posting. If we all knew everything there would be no need for this Forum. You could have posted originally without revealing that you were relatively new to driving and on a provisional.

zilog_jones

Wishbone Ash wrote:

You should not be coasting to a stop.

That's probably what I'm doing wrong then

peasant wrote:

Engage the clutch with too much verve while in the wrong gear and possibly the wrong accelerator postion ...and you could either block the wheels and skid or make an almighty jolt forward.

Yes, the latter has happened a couple of times - it does not sound good!

ruaneg: Did any lights come on when the car apparently stalled?

fletch

zilog_jones wrote:

I've only been driving about 2 months, and frequently stall my car when coasting to a stop (like at a crossing or traffic lights). It's usually because I go on the clutch too late... I think.

Then you are not coasting ...you are just gettin on the clutch too late as you say....coasting is when you clutch in too early and basically roll the car to a stop without a gear engaged.

cormie

Big Nelly is like that to everyone on here, aren't ya son?

Anyway, having a fully licensed driver with him at the time, if he was on his first, third or subsequent license, wouldn't have made a difference in this situation, what could the fully license driver have done? Calmly say to put on hazard lights, check the key and then give him a bollocking?:D

peasant

zilog_jones wrote:

That's probably what I'm doing wrong then


Yes, the latter has happened a couple of times - it does not sound good!

nothing personal ...but I would strongly suggest that you get a few lessons on the basics of car control from a good instructor.

Big Nelly

cormie wrote:

Big Nelly is like that to everyone on here, aren't ya son?

Nah Cormie, just to the people that don't know how to drive and I think are a danger on the road:p the rest of the time I am sweetness and pie

cormie

Well ruaneg, regardless of anyone's attitude on here, I would take in all advice, criticism and even insults as it will all help in some way or another and certainly don't be put off coming back here as it's a great place to learn things:)

ballooba

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Many of the young drivers killed on our roads each year considered themselves to be good drivers. At least that incident should be a valuable experience if you learn from it. I've been driving all categories of vehicles for 20 years and I don't consider myself to be a good driver. I'd say I'm average.

In fairness, who asked??? :rolleyes:

ballooba

Big Nelly wrote:

This is about the 3rd or 4th post where you mentioned you cant be sure what happened. Again I will ask are you on a prov license and are you supposed to have a full license driver with you?

That is completely irrelevant. What would his accompanying driver have done.

There are plenty of fully licensed drivers who would have reacted the same to this situation. Or even handle it a lot worse.

There is a lot of people here who need to get off their high horses.

And yes, I have my full licence. Would i have reacted differently than the OP? Maybe, maybe not, I have never been in that situation.

ambro25

Wishbone Ash wrote:

You should not be coasting to a stop. It's bad driving habit and if you do it in a driving test, the tester won't be impressed.

Another quirk inherited from the Brits which is apparently happily paraded as gospel over here :rolleyes:

Any driving instructor on the Continent will tell you that if you are driving in any other gear than 1st, you always retrograde (5>4>3>2) when coming to a halt and use engine friction to decelerate you car, until you apply brakes to come to a full stop, and clutch out of 2nd at the time of coming to a full stop, else you are deemed not in control of the car.

Besides obvious relief for brake pads (I don't think I changed my pads more than once in any 40,000 miles period with the same car, ever), multiple benefits are even engine wear, prolonged shock absorbers life and instant control over car if you need to accelerate before coming to a full stop.

As for de-clutching on ice or water or mud or whatever if you're sliding, that's just downright dumb, from experience (lots, Continent + Canada). You're better off letting the engine friction cull the momentum through the tyres than you are using the brakes (ABS or not) if the situation requires you to stop - in the alternative, you're better off learning to use your handbrake to straighten the car relative to the intended path of travel and gently feeding power until it catches (AKA power sliding). What you never do on such surfaces is use brakes, because they accentuate any sliding momentum too quickly - only gentle acceleration/deceleration.

As for the OP, well done in keeping your cool and keeping it together, especially with so little experience to date.

I've had this happen to me with a Citroën years ago, timing belt snapped (engine instantly blown) in the middle of motorway roadworks and in heavy fog - no power, no steering, no brakes (all linked by pressurized hydropneumatic system, no engine = no pressure :eek:).

The last thing you do is put the damn hazards on. The first thing you do is determine safest option for you and other drivers between stopping ASAP or use any leftover momentum to coast clear of danger (such as coming to a stop with the hazards on in the overtaking lane in the middle of roadworks on a motorway smothered in fog :rolleyes: - looking at ya Big Nelly ).

peasant

ambro25 wrote:

As for de-clutching on ice or water or mud or whatever if you're sliding, that's just downright dumb, from experience (lots, Continent + Canada). You're better off letting the engine friction cull the momentum through the tyres than you are using the brakes (ABS or not) if the situation requires you to stop - in the alternative, you're better off learning to use your handbrake to straighten the car relative to the intended path of travel and gently feeding power until it catches (AKA power sliding). What you never do on such surfaces is use brakes, because they accentuate any sliding momentum too quickly - only gentle acceleration/deceleration.

I would agree and disagree at the same time.

Once your driven tyres have already lost grip, the only hope of getting that grip back is to declutch and remove all engine forces from the equation.
This depends of course, if there is time and space for such a maneuvre ...otherwise just stand on the brakes and brace for impact.

Advising a novice to learn handbrake slides is just reckless.