Fake abortion counselling services - should they be allowed??

Aoife-FM104

I just read this article about fake abortion counselling services and I am so angry!!

I accept the anti-abortion folk are allowed give "please don't have an abortion" advice, but this is just taking it to far!!!

The text of the article -

Fake Abortion Counselling Services
November 20, 2006

A few years ago, a friend of mine discovered she was pregnant. She was only 18 years old, so she decided the best thing to do would be to have an abortion. She contacted a clinic in Holland and made the necessary arrangements. She also wanted to get some pre and post-abortion counselling, so she contacted the Women’s Counselling Network (WCN), formerly known as Aadams Agency. Their advertisement claimed to offer a wide range of services in a “nonjudgmental environment”, including abortion information and a “referral service to England.”

They asked her to drop into their office, which is located on the corner of Dorset Street in Dublin 1, just as you turn left towards O’Connell Street. She agreed and went in to meet them. She recalls they were very nice, and were very interested in the details of her abortion plans. My friend, not suspecting she was being set up, told them all about her situation, including which abortion clinic she was going to, when she was going, etc.

The WCN wished her luck and said a counseller would be in contact.

The day before her abortion, the counseller called. It was a Priest, and he was ringing to inform her that if she has an abortion she will go to hell. Abortion is murder. Have the child and give it to him.

She hung up the phone, extremely upset.

The following day she got the plane to Holland. When she arrived at the clinic she was informed the abortion won’t be taking place; her boyfriend had called, claiming he will sue them if they kill his child. This made no sense, so she gave him a ring. It turns out it was the Priest who had called the clinic, falsely claiming to be her partner.

The clinic agreed to proceed with the abortion. It wasn’t the first time they’d received hoax phone calls.

The procedure went well, and she returned home to Dublin. A few days later, still feeling depressed and confused, a package arrived at her door; it was from the Women’s Counselling Network. They had sent her a plastic fetus, baby clothes, and quotes from the Bible.

Sick ****ing bastards.

It appears the WCN are well used to this kind of thing. A few years ago they illegally took a newborn child from a student. No criminal charges were ever pressed. How they are still allowed run this kind of “service” beggars belief.

For a list of PROPER abortion counselling services please visit Positive Options

:eek: :eek: :mad:

Black Swan

This is a fraud. Frauds are against the law. An official complaint needs to be filed with the courts by the injured party and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If there are not enough grounds to pursue a fraud charge, then perhaps there are grounds for harassment or a violation of civil liberties?*






*No matter what your stand is on this issue (choice vs. life), people should not be allowed to violate someone's rights. If you don't like what someone plans to do, then pursue it though legal means, not fraud!

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

exCrumlinBoyo

That is why I adore the Catholic Church and all is associations, but of guilt tripping fcukers if you ask me. It just goes to show how there is no difference between the church 40 years ago and today. It sickens me they way the act and want to control people especially when the offer a service and then mess with peoples minds.

This is one of a million reasons I am a non practicing catholic. The Church and the pope can go lick my balls…


Poor Girl....

D-Generate

The Scientist wrote:

Makes me pro-abortion even more!

Abortions for all!

GLaDOS

Regardless of your opinion on abortion thats just sick

Nightwish

That place on Dorset St (I dont know if I'm allowed name it) is well known for its anti-abortion Catholic stance. Many many people have been hurt by their religious persuasions under the guise of a legitimate, impartial crisis pregnancy agency.

Thaed posted this link a while ago, in the News forum, where an undercover journalist went to the place on Dorset St, and tells the horrific lies she was told.

http://www.newstalk.ie/podcasts/library/Abortion/part1.mp3

Ruu_Old

Aoife, moving this to Humanities, I think its better suited there. As always mods, chuck this back in my direction if you feel its in the wrong spot. Thanks.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Zombrex

Two issues here, one is that fraud that "clinic" commits by claiming to be an organisation that it isn't, and the other is the harrashment the woman recieved afterwards. Both I would imagine are illegal, and I hope the woman went to the police.

seamus

The Scientist wrote:

Oh, btw is it pro-life week this week or something? Pricks going around college today asking me to sign their petition to keep it illegal.

Last friday (or maybe it was yesterday...) a judge made a decision re: embryos which was mostly common sense, but it's not a judgement which a judge should have to make. The pro-life lobby are going nuts because they're terrified that if/when it goes to referendum again, there will be a significant shift in demographics to have abortion ratified in the constitution.

Aoife-FM104

The thing is, I actually think abortion is wrong, but I believe if someone wants to do it they should be allowed. It is their body. But only if it's only a few weeks old. None of this 24 week nonsense!!

But as ScienceNerd said, it doesn't matter what your opinion on abortion is, tricking girls, trying to change their minds is just sick...

Nevyn

This story first broke back in July.

Here is the IFPA's press release about it and here
is the blog I wrote about which quotes the story from breakingnews.ie at the time.

We are also having to face up to the fact that with the ammount of people coming to work in this country and the issues with travel for thiese people when they get thier visa and permits and the fact that those who are not migrants but aslyem seeks are not allowed to travel out of the country during the time
they are being processed that back street illegal abortions are on the rise be they from toxins/poisions/false perscritions or physical proceedures.

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

Doctor Fell

The Scientist wrote:

. I believe every woman should have the right to make a concsious decision for themselves and not be dictated and shipped to another country to do something they choose to do.

I rest my case

T.Sc.

The arguments here for abortion (I hate saying pro-choice, if anything Pro-Life people are pro-choice in the true meaning of the word) are old, dated and untruthful.

"It's a woman's body" etc. What does that mean exactly? We are talking about a woman's body, AND another human's body in her womb. 2 people (or more), not just the woman. That other person has the right to life just like every other person. That baby is not part of the woman's body (like her arms, legs etc), she/he has their own body and life. How are people blind to this?

How does taking a human life validate women's rights? Every woman does have the right to make conscious decisions - that's stating the obvious.
But nobody should have the right to take someone elses life - that's called murder.

Aoife - you think abortion is "wrong", yet people should be allowed do it? What sort of nonsense is that? If something is wrong than they shoudn't be allowed do it i.e.murder. Why can't you stand up for what you believe, without pandering to these pro-abortionists?

And what's wrong with being pro life?
It's pro-abortion people who p*ss me right off, trying to convince people to kill innocent humans, and pretending it's a human right, when the most fundamental human right is actually the right to life. Without that right, all other human rights are meaningless and pointless.

I mean what is their problem, really?
How can they not see that it is a human in the womb we are talking about, an individual's life that they want to kill.

Scientist, you say "I believe every woman should have the right to make a concsious decision for themselves ... to do something they choose to do."
Really? Regardless of the moral implications of that decision, or how it impacts someone else? So by your logic, I could argue the following: I make a conscious decision to kill my neighbour, and it is something I choose to do. So therefore I can do it, right? I could even say I am being pro-choice, coz I am choosing death for my neighbour.
I hope this illuminates the falseness of your own logic and thought process for you. Why don't you stop picking on innocent and defenceless humans and defend them instead?

As for the original post, you are all so hypocritical - you all express sympathy for a person who decided to have her baby killed, yet none of you have even mentioned the baby at all. Does the child who had her/his life callously taken not deserve more symapthy or sorrow?

moto2006

Whatever your feelings on abortion, fraud is still wrong - and the treatment that poor girl received is shocking.
Dr Fell, don't judge till it happens to you - from what you've said I'd be reasonably sure you've never been pregnant and scared. Its not a decision anyone makes lightly, and while its fair enough to disagree the emotive language that anti abortion campaigners tend to use (and the shock tactics as above) doesn't help anyone.

Doctor Fell

moto2006 wrote:

Dr Fell, don't judge till it happens to you - from what you've said I'd be reasonably sure you've never been pregnant and scared. Its not a decision anyone makes lightly, and while its fair enough to disagree the emotive language that anti abortion campaigners tend to use (and the shock tactics as above) doesn't help anyone.

Yes, I've never been pregnant, but my wife was.
I think your advice about not judging is very apt indeed. (Why did you assume I was female by the way? )
Because abortion judges that some humans are not allowed to live - I would say that is judgmental in the extreme.
Billions of women throughout history have been pregnant and given birth, and I think you are being disingenuous by throwing in the line about "being scared". Of course women are scared to some extent, but that's not a reason to take somebody elses life, is it?

It's more than fair to disagree with you! You complain about emotive language? What about the false emotive language used by the pro-abortion lobby? That language certainly doesn't help babies who get their brains sucked out, does it? Because that is the reality of what happens.
If you don't want people to know that, tough.

For instance, the "pro-choice" lobby use emotive issues like women's rights etc. that have no bearing on the issue at all. Like I said, how does killing someone validate some elses rights?

This is a life and death issue, so language is inevitably going to be emotive.

Ahhh, it's not an easy decision? Is that meant to make it alright, or justify it? Stop trying cheap emotive tricks like that to justify killing someone.

Nevyn

So deception and fraud are acceptible to you in trying to persuade someone not to travel for a termination/abortion ?

Doctor Fell

Thaedydal wrote:

So deception and fraud are acceptible to you in trying to persuade someone not to travel for a termination/abortion ?

Where did I say that? Could you point it out please?

BTW, pro-abortionists use deception and fraud regularly (especially in their language) to convince women to have abortions. So aim your hostility at them why don't you.

Nevyn

I didn't say you said that, I asked if you tought those were acceptible means to achieve such a goal.

It required a simple Yes/No answer which you failed to give.
I am not being hostile I asked a question in a civil manner.

Stench Blossoms

The poor girl.

I'm sure most of the people who get abortions think long and hard before actually going through with it. I think its a hard enough decision to have to make without people trying to make you feel guilty about it.

It's a womans body Doctor Fell and she can do what she likes with it.

What's to say that if they did have the baby that they'd be happy with life or even treat the child well?

Doctor Fell

Thaedydal wrote:

So deception and fraud are acceptible to you in

That's what you said - seems more like statement than a question!

And to answer you in a civil manner, no, I don't think they are acceptable or in fact necessary.

Doctor Fell

orla wrote:

The poor girl.

I'm sure most of the people who get abortions think long and hard before actually going through with it.

It's a womans body Doctor Fell and she can do what she likes with it.

Wow, what nonsense.

What's a woman's body, exactly? You seem in need of basic biology lessons. Her child is actually a different human being - it is not her body that gets killed, it is her childs.

They think long and hard about it - how does that make it alright? If I think long and hard about killing my annoying flat mate, does that make it alright? Poor me!

"What's to say that if they did have the baby that they'd be happy with life or even treat the child well?"
What's that got to do with anything? How does that justify killing the child?
By that logic you should kill your boyfriend, coz you may not be happy with life, or treat him well in the future.
Non-sense.

Nevyn

Doctor Fell wrote:

That's what you said - seems more like statement than a question!

It had a question mark

Doctor Fell wrote:

And to answer you in a civil manner, no, I don't think they are acceptable or in fact necessary.

Thank you for answering the question.

So those using such under handed methods should stop as they are not acceptble and to your mind not needed ?

Doctor Fell

Thaedydal wrote:

So those using such under handed methods should stop as they are not acceptble and to your mind not needed ?

I admire anybody who tries to convince people that human life should be defended, and is worthy of life.

However, I personally would not send dolls or such to a woman who had an abortion. I don't see what purpose it serves tbh.

panda100

Everyone knows the legit family planning facilities in Dublin so why didnt the girl go to the IFPA instead of this one on Dorset street that tbh Ive never even heared of. I think both pro lifers and pro abortioners represent themselves terribly. The pro lifers have done some awful things in the past but I do think many of the stories (like this one) are made up by the pro abortion lot.

The first thing that a women will do these days is not go down to some unknown place on dorset street or just anyold crisis pregnancy agency,they will go to their gp. Also does anyone really belive any priest in this day and age will send a foetus through the letter box like that?Maybe some deranged person who thinks he/she is acting in the name of catholicism but not a priest.

Nevyn

The topic of this thread is the wrong doing carried out by the Fake abortion counselling services and how they should not go about trying to achieve thier objectives by underhand and unacceptible means.

Personally I would love to see those on both side of the abortion debate working on the issues of better sex education and the advailibity of contraception and to better fund and get more supports for those that may consider adoption; so that unwanted pregnancies would be less likely to occur and adoption would be a better choice then it is currently.

Nevyn

panda100 have you taken the time to read the links posted about this issue and to listen to the podcast ?

panda100

Thaedydal wrote:

panda100 have you taken the time to read the links posted about this issue and to listen to the podcast ?

Admittely no:o

Nevyn

Then I think you should rather then jumping to the conculsion what is being discussed is

stories (like this one) are made up by the pro abortion lot

.

panda100

Thaedydal wrote:

Then I think you should rather then jumping to the conculsion what is being discussed is .

I said stories LIKE this one.I never said this particular one was made up. Pro choicers have been known to make up horror stories like this one in the past.Thats all I was saying.I wasnt jumping to conclusions.

Nevyn

Again the topic of the thread and the links provided point to cases the were these are proven facts not stories made up by anyone.

panda100

Thaedydal wrote:

Again the topic of the thread and the links provided point to cases the were these are proven facts not stories made up by anyone.

Okay I have just looked at alll the links

First one is a link from sex.ie where underneath the prose is a link to an interview with some fetish and bondage guy and pornos. Excuse me if I dont take what sex.ie have to say about abortion too seriously....

Second link
Is from your own blog..biased?
The IFPA site...have their own agenda. As I said before I do not doubt that there is a few rogue agencys out there but I do think people with their own agenda exaggerate them alot..I mean really a priest in this day and age sending a plastic foetus through the post ??

Third link:
Newstalk podcast..More them likely head strong,feminist pro choicers trying to taint the pro life campaign by ringing in and exagerrating stories that they have heared

For the record I am pro choice I just hate the stupid games that go on around the abortion debate

Nevyn

did you listen to the pod cast ?

It is not people rining in, it is the interview with an investigive journalist who went into the fraudulant clinic and recorded what was said to her there.

That is why it was in the news, that is why members of the govenement spoke out about the issue, my blog piece includes the covering of the story froom breakingnews.ie

Clearly you think such things don't go on and wont accept the facts when they are provided for you to look at.

http://archives.tcm.ie/breakingnews/2006/07/18/story268328.asp

panda100

Thaedydal wrote:

did

Clearly you think such things don't go on and wont accept the facts when they are provided for you to look at.

No I said they do to a certain extent but they are probably exagerated by those with an agenda against the pro life campaign. I believe facts when they are provided for me conclusively and without bias and not by the ifpa,sex.ie or a journalist who needs a newsstory

Nevyn

Clearly for you there is no one who is not biased on this issue to relay any facts to you at all.

moto2006

Just out of interest Panda, If you don't believe the internet, radio or newspapers, where do you get your information that the pro choice lobby circulate false stories from? I think you are completely right to be sceptical of news and try to verify it when possible but surely if several sources are saying something there tends to be truth in it?

True, everyone has their own agenda publishing information & by that token so do the anti abortion campaigners so you could follow that back to say they vilify the pro choice lobby. Out of interest, if there is a history of the pro choice lobby making false/exaggerated claims could you link to them or give examples? I think their have been enough (thankfully not many) of these stories about false abortion counselling from a number of different sources to show that its not just 1 or 2 loose cannons. Tbh, I think one instance of this happening is too much and a shame for the many good people within the catholic church.

Brooklyn74

There is a protest taking place against this agency on Saturday. Further details are here:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82023

de5p0i1er

ScienceNerd wrote:

Regardless of your opinion on abortion thats just sick

You said it all there, someone should tell them to f*** off.

InFront

I would share Panda's scepticism about this sort of story. Both sides do routinely invent a lot of rubbish. The woman in the consultation talking about the foetus feeling pain more intensely than an older baby, also the evidence linking breast cancer and abortion (not strong evidence), was talking rubbish in that case. Equally, I thought the journalist's documentary was a bit manipulative and prone to exaggerations.... "Baby homes in Ireland, I was shocked". Why?

This journalist is apparently revealing "fake abortion counselling services" - they never said they promoted abortion, possibly they do offer post abortion counselling. Frankly, if a woman sees an advertisement like the one that was read out in the podcast, and doesn't even ask herself if they are pro or anti abortion, well it is a pretty basic thing to miss. Of course there are pro-life organisations out there.
I would question how impartial other "non directive" pregnancy counselling services are based on that podcast.

Brooklyn74

InFront wrote:

This journalist is apparently revealing "fake abortion counselling services" - they never said they promoted abortion, possibly they do offer post abortion counselling. Frankly, if a woman sees an advertisement like the one that was read out in the podcast, and doesn't even ask herself if they are pro or anti abortion, well it is a pretty basic thing to miss. Of course there are pro-life organisations out there.

The thing about the agency in question is that they advertise themselves in such a way that is obviously meant to suggest they can assist women obtaining an abortion. They are listed in the Golden Pages under the names "A Choice For Women" and "British Alternatives" and in their ads they say they have offices in various cities in England, where abortions can be obtained. Most people would be deceived by those ads as to what the agency's real agenda is. Deliberate deception in advertising is unethical in any event - when the purpose is to take vulnerable women and traumatise them through false and misleading information, it's despicable.

There are other pro-life agencies, such as Cura and Life, that make their agenda clear. Nobody has a problem with these. Nobody is protesting them.

InFront

Brooklyn74 wrote:

obviously meant to suggest they can assist women obtaining an abortion. They are listed in the Golden Pages under the names "A Choice For Women" and "British Alternatives"

How can that not be construed as pro-life? Especially "British alternatives", I'm not sure how much clearer that one could be. I just think that when some people see "abortion counselling" they assume it must be in favour of abortion.

Deliberate deception in advertising is unethical in any event - when the purpose is to take vulnerable women and traumatise them through false and misleading information, it's despicable.

It is wrong, yes, but in terms of being unethical the question is "whose ethics?". Whose ethics carry the most weight? Abortion is pretty unethical too in my opinion. Anyway, I'm not in favour of ever lying to expectant mothers about pregnancy and abortion, I feel the scientific evidence stands well enough on its own without deception. But it isn't as black and white as the OP maintains.

Nevyn

InFront wrote:

How can that not be construed as pro-life? Especially "British alternatives", I'm not sure how much clearer that one could be. I just think that when some people see "abortion counselling" they assume it must be in favour of abortion.

It is not abortion couselling but crissis pregnancy couselling with all possible options presented and information and contacts given.

That agency is posing as giving such crissis pregnancy couselling and clearly they don't.

Brooklyn74

InFront wrote:

How can that not be construed as pro-life? Especially "British alternatives", I'm not sure how much clearer that one could be.

That's just bizarre. "British Alternatives" is clearly meant to imply that people can go to that agency for an alternative which is available in Britain. Abortion is the only one that I know of that's available in Britain and not here. What on earth do you think it's suggesting?

Also, take a look at the Golden Pages ads, they say "ALL options discussed". What else would that be implying?

lostexpectation

InFront wrote:

I would share Panda's scepticism about this sort of story. Both sides do routinely invent a lot of rubbish. The woman in the consultation talking about the foetus feeling pain more intensely than an older baby, also the evidence linking breast cancer and abortion (not strong evidence), was talking rubbish in that case. Equally, I thought the journalist's documentary was a bit manipulative and prone to exaggerations.... "Baby homes in Ireland, I was shocked". Why?
I would question how impartial other "non directive" pregnancy counselling services are based on that podcast.

they tried to do an adoption by themselves ie an illegal one it was sited in high court judgement of the c? case, they were shut down and started up again.

you don't believe that you don't believe these people are fraudters ok. go ahead

InFront

Brooklyn74 wrote:

That's just bizarre. "British Alternatives" is clearly meant to imply that people can go to that agency for an alternative which is available in Britain.

No, it could mean alternative to British methods... ie British alternatives. In fact in light of their ethos, that's pretty obviously what it means.

Also, take a look at the Golden Pages ads, they say "ALL options discussed". What else would that be implying?

The Well Woman Centre say that too, but I really doubt they stock pictures of 15 week old foetuses or tell women about neurogenesis or foetal sensory neurons and pain receptors. Why not suggest a video of abortion? Images of 15 week old foetuses? I had an operation on my wisdom teeth last year, before I did I took out an oral surgery textbook from the library. Are foetuses any more than wisdom teeth to these people? Both are just cells, aren't they, so what would be the problem in depicting it accurately?

InFront

lostexpectation wrote:

you don't believe that you don't believe these people are fraudters ok. go ahead

It's very clear what they're up to, they're pushing false evidence and they're making inaccurate claims about abortion. They're also being too emotive.

I said that I am sceptical about this sort of story, pro-abortion groups are biased, and I did think the podcast was quite manipulative.

Vainglory

InFront, I'll be as clear as I can possibly be.

We rang this agency. We asked "If I decide I want to have an abortion, will you tell me how I can get one?" They said "Yes, we will give you all the information you need."

How is this not deceptive? Why are you defending these people?

By the way, they're also listed in other Golden Pages from other counties as things like "Absolutely Unplanned Pregnancy Ltd."

InFront

Vainglory, I'll be as clear as I can possibly be. I am not defending them. Read my posts, I've just been saying that what they push is wrong, both ethically and factually, and that I don't believe in lying to pregnant women about abortion.

I actually do have a problem with not presenting women with the facts, but this includes pro-abortion agencies too just as much as this group. And I do think that pro abortionists have a tendancy to talk unscientific rubbish just as much as pro lifers do

Vainglory

I don't understand how saying that you're really "sceptical" about this stuff when it comes to light will ever help the campaign to get these places shut down.

InFront

I didn't say I was interested in helping a campaign to shut them down, I'm not. I'm sceptical about pro abortion sources and pro life sources in general.