Why me?

Ollieboy

Deep into a tourney and were now only a few players away from the bubble, I’m guessing the bubble will be burst within the next hour and my stack is big enough to get me there, blinds are currently 800/1600 ante 200. Were 9 handed and most raises are getting through as the table as tighten up a lot. I started this table as one of the chip leaders, but I’ve slowly gone backwards during the day as I’ve been very card dead, I’ve not shown any hands and my table image would have to be solid, my best hand in the 3 hours of play so far as been 1010, which I laydown to a all-in from utg who told me after he had 99, but this call was for 2/5 of my chips at the time.

All good players at the table and 7 out of the 9 have me out chip.

I’m utg and find AJ suit. I was going to throw this away, but felt I need another 5k of chips to keep my stack position and get past the bubble, so I decided to raise 3 times the blind, which was a standard raise, it fold around to the player on the cut-off, you I had covered, he than fold and the SB flat calls and the BB folds.

The sb is a pro-player and as made some very good calls to bust other players during the day, his hand range would be wide in this position, but he’s a very good flop player, he hasn’t said a word at the table and has over 160k in chips and playing very good poker and making moves at the right time, he knows if I miss the flop here that he’ll take it away from me very easily, he’s probably the only player I didn’t want to call my raise.

The flop comes A 9 3 rainbow. He checks and I decided to make a very solid bet to let him know I’ve got the Ace and good kicker, so I bet 12k into 13k pot, he flat calls very fast. The turn is a 2 completing the rainbow, he checks again.

I’m now playing for my tourney and the pressure is on, my gut feeling is that he might have a set here, or trying to play me and take the pot away from me on the river, he’s also making body language moves as if he’s willing to dump the hand if I push. I cant imagine that he called my raise with 99, but it’s the only hand that makes sense, or Aq to AK or some other pocket pair, I take a long time to make a decision and I ………!

What’s my move?

1. Check and see what comes on the river, I feel if I check the hand is over for me, as I’ll find it impossible to call any type of bet on the river.
2. Push, he might have a pp here and think its good, KK to 1010 and he might even laydown AQ here to a push as I'm more or less tellling him I've AK and I'm asking does he have a set, but I'm getting no answer(what else could I expect.lol). There’s now 43k in the middle and this would give me a very playable stack again.

fuzzbox

How can you say both of the following

A. should I push now?
B. if I check I cannot call any river bet?

Hectorjelly

Your entire thinking during this hand is almost totally alien to me. Without going into that too much, if you think his range is either a set or a hand that wants to take it away from you; then you absolutely have to check and then call a bet on the river. Nothing else makes any sense whatsover.

Ste05

I don't bet so much on the flop. You have the lowest hand in your range. Unless he thinks you would bet so much with QQ/KK.

Therefore I check the turn and call his river lead, or check behind on river.

EDIT: I also agree completely with HJ and Fuzz.

fuzzbox

Also - this is mad :

The flop comes A 9 3 rainbow. He checks and I decided to make a very solid bet to let him know I’ve got the Ace and good kicker, so I bet 12k into 13k pot,

Why not just bet half the pot ? You have then successfully kept the pot smaller, you havent told your opponent what you have, and your decisions are not artificially magnified.

5starpool

Hectorjelly wrote:

Your entire thinking during this hand is almost totally alien to me. Without going into that too much, if you think his range is either a set or a hand that wants to take it away from you; then you absolutely have to check and then call a bet on the river. Nothing else makes any sense whatsover.

I fully agree.

ianmc38

Based on your description of the hand, check behind turn and call river. I dont know what i'd do if he shoved the river.

I dont understand the thinking behind "I decided to make a very solid bet to let him know I’ve got the Ace and good kicker". Why do you want him to know what you have?

ollyk1

Depending on the player I could well check this flop and bet the turn if checked to again or flat call the turn. Although BigD seems to think I do this all the time!!

nicnicnic

I might of missed it but how much have you left behind

StraddleFor6

Check behind on the turn. Top pro called 12k bet on flop very quickly. You're beat.

Ollieboy

Firstly, were more or less on the bubble here and the payout is big enough that everyone is playing tight, so by making a solid bet on the flop I want him to know I wasn't giving this hand up easy, I didnt really expect to be called or want to be called here and this player was well able to make a play at me on the river to take the pot away, knowing that I could limp into the money if I fold. If I was in his shoes, I would have made the same play.

1/2 a pot bet seem a bit weak with so much at risk, so I went for a bigger bet than normal, I want him to know I was playing for my stack in this hand on the flop and that I felt I was ahead, I was trying to represent AK here, as thats the only hand he could put me on from my raise utg and a bet on the flop.

If I check the turn, he'll move in on the river, even if its a Ace, I'll find it impossible to call. I've to make a decision on the turn to either give up the hand now or make a play for it, if I think he's making a move on me, I should push now and not give him the opportunity to do that.

To be fair, after 3 hours of no hands, my head was not in the right place and its the reason I end up playing the hand so badly.

Nick, I've about 27k behind me on the turn.

Ollieboy

fuzzbox wrote:

How can you say both of the following

A. should I push now?
B. if I check I cannot call any river bet?

I think this is simple:

A. Push and he'll fold his hand and stop him from sucking out or making a move on me.

B. if I check, he'll move in on the river as its a sign of weakness, hand over.

Only problem with both, is if I'm beat! than B is the better option.

Hectorjelly

Olly, what you are saying makes no sense.

Ollieboy

Hectorjelly wrote:

Your entire thinking during this hand is almost totally alien to me. Without going into that too much, if you think his range is either a set or a hand that wants to take it away from you; then you absolutely have to check and then call a bet on the river. Nothing else makes any sense whatsover.

If I check Hector, he'll move in on the river and I'll have to make a tougher decision than for my stack and might even fold the best hand. Which in hindsight would have been easier, the other problem is, if I fold, I'll need to catch a few hands to make the money with only 27k left.

My first big mistake was playing the hand in the first place and I felt the bet on the flop would have end the hand. So I can only beat a bluff here or make a bluff to win the pot.

Ollieboy

Hectorjelly wrote:

Olly, what you are saying makes no sense.

Sorry Darragh, which bit and I'll try to explain it better.

Bandana boy

Check call is the only move I think makes sense nothing your ahead of I believe will call a bet here and nothing your behind except maybe and a big maybe AQ
But lots that your ahead of might make a move on the river

When blinds get this big i find a 3 BBs raise to much I will normally make it 2.5 or 3 BBS
no matter what i have flopped here 12k into 13k is really tying you to the pot with a very average hand

5starpool

If you are are ready to push in this hand then you should reign in your thinking and check/call any river. If the river made his hand then so be it, it's a chance you have to take I think. The amount of times you will get an extra bet from him when he has a worse A or PP make up for this.

Saying too that the pro will have to think you have AK because you raised UTG on a tight table and bet the pot on the flop is very simplistic too, and is something that doesn't take into account a lot of the facts that makes the good pros what they are. At a complete guess I am going to ask was this Liam Flood at the SE 250 w/1 rebuy?

You have 2 options really now. Give up the hand and check turn, fold river if he bets, or else I think you have to check call river if you are thinking of comitting all your chips. The way you are posting it sounds like you are about to attempt a bluff by going all in on the turn, and your hand has some showdown value. You do not have enough chips to be weak in this hand imo.

Hectorjelly

If you think its really likely that he will move in on the river as a bluff, then you should check and call his all in. Induce a bluff and then call it, you lose the same against a set; but win a lot more chips when you are ahead. Against a player like you described you wont win chips off him buy waiting for a better hand than him, you need to get him to bluff you.

He will almost never fold a better hand to a bet on the turn so betting there is simply awful. If you think he bluffs a lot, then check and call his river bet. If he doesnt bluff that much, then check and fold. Betting to stop a bluff is madness.

You did not make a mistake in playing this hand, your mistake is in some thought processes that could do with some ironing!

Ollieboy

StraddleFor6 wrote:

Check behind on the turn. Top pro called 12k bet on flop very quickly. You're beat.

I think a lot of players here would call to make a move on the river so close to the bubble, the payout is 10k when the money starts and this player has the biggest stack on the table and can start hovering up chips cheaply.

I'm either beat or he's making a move, thats what I felt.

nicnicnic

I think with 27k left behind and the blinds the blinds at 800/1600 and from your interpretation of the scenario I think you feel your behind I'm gonna hope its checked down and lets it go if he bets. as for a guess at his hand Something is telling me he also has AJ.

Im a little puzzled by your thinking pre flop your gonna fold utg which i probably would but can understand not doing so after 3hours of sithe. Now you then figure you need 5k more to break the bubble thats 3bb, your sitting on 42k approx about 28bb seems a very exact assumption to be making and I'm having trouble with your logic here

Ollieboy

Hectorjelly wrote:

If you think its really likely that he will move in on the river as a bluff, then you should check and call his all in. Induce a bluff and then call it, you lose the same against a set; but win a lot more chips when you are ahead. Against a player like you described you wont win chips off him buy waiting for a better hand than him, you need to get him to bluff you.

He will almost never fold a better hand to a bet on the turn so betting there is simply awful. If you think he bluffs a lot, then check and call his river bet. If he doesnt bluff that much, then check and fold. Betting to stop a bluff is madness.

You did not make a mistake in playing this hand, your mistake is in some thought processes that could do with some ironing!

aggreed, I know all the mistakes I made here and I still cant believe how badly I played the hand. Once he called the preflop raise I was only going to bet a Ace high flop if he check and bet it solid, but 12k than had me commit which made matters worse.

After that, my head was up my arse.

This was the WSOP main event and the tournament director was on my back asking me to hurry up etc and asking if that was a bet etc (total ass), dealer refusing to let me have the pot spread, even do this was allowed for American players and I had the bloody cameras and media all over the table, so all of a sudden I was brain dead and continued to make mistakes, which still supprise me now.

It took me 6 months to post this hand, as I knew the reaction it would get, (Darragh, Fuzz etc)...lol

Ollieboy

nicnicnic wrote:

I think with 27k left behind and the blinds the blinds at 800/1600 and from your interpretation of the scenario I think you feel your behind I'm gonna hope its checked down and lets it go if he bets. as for a guess at his hand Something is telling me he also has AJ.

Im a little puzzled by your thinking pre flop your gonna fold utg which i probably would but can understand not doing so after 3hours of sithe. Now you then figure you need 5k more to break the bubble thats 3bb, your sitting on 42k approx about 28bb seems a very exact assumption to be making and I'm having trouble with your logic here

Nick,

My frame of mind wasn't the best at this stage, I had played nearly 2 days of great poker and had my stack up to 100k at one stage, than I loss a big hand to Eric the Swed (top internet pro, 23 mil last year I heard), when he river a 2 outer, that would have given me 150k in chips, well up with the chiplead, but instead, he finish the day on 140k. After that the poker gods never gave me a starting hand in any position and my stack was just disappearing in front of my eyes, I didnt want to be a shortstack so my minimum stack size was 50k, another mistake, I also felt with the blinds about to go up to 1k/2k and 300 ante, that I need to draw a line in the sand soon and I want to be in good shape after the bubble broke to pick up cheap pots and make it into the top 500 or so, as people were going to gamble as the prize money didnt jump much after the fiirst levels.

So 20 BB was my lowest level i want and I also was measuring my stack against the other stacks in play on my table and the chip average, but again, I know I could have fold preflop and on the river and still make it into the money from this position, I also had the blinds next.

bops

i feel sick reading this post ollie

raise understandable after 3 hrs without a hand
pot bet understandable - clearly stating fukoff ive a good ace
your logic about pushing vs the check/call all-in makes perfect sense to me - you know he'll push with a bluff/the nuts if you check it in to him.

...and to top it off i have a rotten feelin he has A9

i dunno how it finished, but wp - i hope to get the chance someday...

roryc

so what happened...

MrPillowTalk

does anyone else think its a bad sign when bops can see the logic?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ollieboy

Well as you can image, this was a lot of things coming together, but mostly fatigue, I didn't sleep well the night before and I was tilting a little from the last day of play, even do I felt good.

I knew my hand wasn't good, as someone already said, when he called so fast you cant be ahead, I still think he could have been making a play, but there was no reason to after my bet on the flop I felt. A lot of attention had turn to our table and this was going to be a key hand, I took a long time, I knew I was in trouble and so did he. Than I got a sign, something that I had seem him do earlier, a phyisical tell, I had pick up on it earlier. Now I dont read much into phyisical tells, rather betting patterns, people starting hand range and raising hand range to calling range, but in this instance I was looking for any reason to push and win the pot, so I push, he couldn't call fast enough..

trip 3's. I was disguist at myself for the play and it was very unlike me. The tell, was his hands and how he held the cards, now I'm sure it was a false tell and I just want to believe it.

I didnt post this hand for a long time, more to see what peoples reaction would be like after the event, also I knew how bad it sound and how negative some people would be about my thought process. I didnt post it for critism, more to show people what happens, its a bit like Roundtowers play, its easy to say everything about it after, but in the moment of battle it felt right. I didnt regret my play, but I learn more from it than if I had won the hand.

So as you can guess, I went on the piss afterwards and no the hand doesn't huntor bother me, but I was supprised at how bad I played it and how logic went out the window. I believe you dont win the WSOP, you lose it. But I've only played it once, so hopefully next time it will be different.

But for all poker players, its a great event to play in and you should do it once in your life.

Darragh, you read it correctly, my train of thought was totally gone.

nicnicnic

Ollieboy wrote:

Nick,

My frame of mind wasn't the best at this stage, I had played nearly 2 days of great poker and had my stack up to 100k at one stage, than I loss a big hand to Eric the Swed (top internet pro, 23 mil last year I heard), when he river a 2 outer, that would have given me 150k in chips, well up with the chiplead, but instead, he finish the day on 140k. After that the poker gods never gave me a starting hand in any position and my stack was just disappearing in front of my eyes, I didnt want to be a shortstack so my minimum stack size was 50k, another mistake, I also felt with the blinds about to go up to 1k/2k and 300 ante, that I need to draw a line in the sand soon and I want to be in good shape after the bubble broke to pick up cheap pots and make it into the top 500 or so, as people were going to gamble as the prize money didnt jump much after the fiirst levels.

So 20 BB was my lowest level i want and I also was measuring my stack against the other stacks in play on my table and the chip average, but again, I know I could have fold preflop and on the river and still make it into the money from this position, I also had the blinds next.

Ollie I was looking for the logic in your thinking in a normal situation not knowing the actual context. I had a very similar situation in the ipc at city west last January. I had been in the top 4 with 150k with 50 left and went total card dead for three hours dropping to about 90k with 26 left. It was about 1am on the second day and new territory to me, although it took me a few months to come to terms with what i had done i basically fcuked my chips away in two far worse plays then your play here. Now that was just a 1k event so i can only imagine how bad it was for you in the WSOP because i felt fairly bad after that.

the only thing I will say is that If I'm lucky enough again to get very deep in a big field multi day event i will know some of the pitfalls and wont be making the same mistake again. If it dosent kill us it makes us stronger

Hectorjelly

I have a lot of respect for you posting this hand Olly, and you should feel justifiably proud to have made it to that stage.

El Stuntman

nicnicnic wrote:

Ollie I was looking for the logic in your thinking in a normal situation not knowing the actual context. I had a very similar situation in the ipc at city west last January. I had been in the top 4 with 150k with 50 left and went total card dead for three hours dropping to about 90k with 26 left. It was about 1am on the second day and new territory to me, although it took me a few months to come to terms with what i had done i basically fcuked my chips away in two far worse plays then your play here. Now that was just a 1k event so i can only imagine how bad it was for you in the WSOP because i felt fairly bad after that.

the only thing I will say is that If I'm lucky enough again to get very deep in a big field multi day event i will know some of the pitfalls and wont be making the same mistake again. If it dosent kill us it makes us stronger

interesting, I read a story about Dan Harrington (normally ubertight) calling a player's all-in (in a similar psychological state) in a big tournie with A8. The other player turned over A6 and Harrington eliminated him.

when asked why he had made the call with cards he would normally throw away, Harrington said he could see that "he wanted to go home". i.e. his opponent couldn't deal with the increasing pressure and wanted out of there (albeit subconsciously)

not suggesting that this is what happened to you or Ollie but I do think it's an interesting concept.....

Ollieboy

El Stuntman wrote:

interesting, I read a story about Dan Harrington (normally ubertight) calling a player's all-in (in a similar psychological state) in a big tournie with A8. The other player turned over A6 and Harrington eliminated him.

when asked why he had made the call with cards he would normally throw away, Harrington said he could see that "he wanted to go home". i.e. his opponent couldn't deal with the increasing pressure and wanted out of there (albeit subconsciously)

not suggesting that this is what happened to you or Ollie but I do think it's an interesting concept.....

Thanks Darragh.

Stuntman, its kind of what happens and as Nick says, its hard to understand, but after so many hours of play and so many hands, you make mistakes more than bad plays. You've got to learn from it and try not to do it again. I hope to go back next year and try again, but people say the WSOP is about donkey players etc, its a very tough event to cash and to make the final table and I would have loads of respect for anyone that gets that far. Its easier if you have a monster chip stack do...lol

El Stuntman

Ollieboy wrote:

Thanks Darragh.

Stuntman, its kind of what happens and as Nick says, its hard to understand, but after so many hours of play and so many hands, you make mistakes more than bad plays.

LOL, nobody knows this more than me!

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

NickyOD

Straddlefor6 said all that needed to be said in this thread. You should be done putting any more chips into the pot after your large flop bet. You have porposely made your own hand completely transparrent and only an insane idiot would try to bluff you off it.

Ollieboy

LuckyLloyd wrote:

In a way you are unlucky here Olly. The majority of the time, Villian will fail to skillfully flop his set and you will take it down with the flop bet.

I think this is a really interesting thread though. What percentage of the field goes out around the bubble in that tournament because their head blows a gasket under tremendous fatigue and pressure??

It was slightly different for me mate, I would guess most players would play better around the bubble and tighten up, I actually was in tilt and very disappointed with my play in the last 4/5 hours, I had a really good chance to go deep and was up there in the top 500 more most of the time, but one bad day and it was all over. But you need to me mentally and physically ready for a event like this and fatigue plays a big part. So gym for me this year....lol

Nicky, I knew that he wasn't bluffing, I was explaining more the reason why I made such a bad play even do I knew I was behind, its more to do with the timing of the hand than anything else.

I was also very unlucky, I had laydown KK 3 times on the first day to AA preflop, had stayed away from any trouble and got paid on my big hands and won some big pots with good bluffs, but at the wrong time I ran into a set, when I was at my weakest point. I was nearly going to throw the cards away when he check to me on the turn as I knew I was struggling to make a correct play. That would have been interesting to explain to people after...lol

empirix

He had Pocket 3's!!!! Obviously unlucky that he hit trips on the flop, i say desperation lost you this hand, with the pro having such a big stack, i can kinda see how you were thinking he may of been trying to hit a hand on the river etc and take a chance because of his stack size, but i have to say when he called after you made the solid bet on the flop with an A on the board - ya gotta be concerned. I check the turn and check/fold the river, desperation got the better of you, sir. Having said that i only play cash games, this is a kinda hand in cash games where it would be "easier" to make the right decision.

Hitman Actual

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I think this is a really interesting thread though. What percentage of the field goes out around the bubble in that tournament because their head blows a gasket under tremendous fatigue and pressure??

I think one of the best part of RoundTowers performance was that he seemed to play a really good bubble game, taking a big hit playing aggressively, and then building his stack back up. Bubble play really shows if you have the mental strength for tournament poker. (Not saying you failed on this, Ollie!).

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ollieboy

lenny_leonard wrote:

I think one of the best part of RoundTowers performance was that he seemed to play a really good bubble game, taking a big hit playing aggressively, and then building his stack back up. Bubble play really shows if you have the mental strength for tournament poker. (Not saying you failed on this, Ollie!).

no offence taken, I actually love bubble play and this was one of the reason I want to start making moves and felt I could get some chips, but I also knew the bigger stacks would be using this to there advantage, hence the big bet on the flop, after that, as I already said, I loss my way. We were 60 players away from the bubble at this stage.

Anyway, enough, its over and there's aways Friday...lol

BigCityBanker

Should this not be in the bad beat/moan sticky thread? Is there a need to be clogging the forum up with this?



Only messing Ollie - what doesnt kill you will only make you stronger. GL next year .

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I think this is a really interesting thread though. What percentage of the field goes out around the bubble in that tournament because their head blows a gasket under tremendous fatigue and pressure??

large I would imagine

highly exploitable

<of course first I have to win my way in to the WSOP and then get to the bubble......but when I do......>

Bandana boy

El Stuntman wrote:

of course first I have to win my way in to the WSOP and then get to the bubble......but when I do......>

.

MrPillowTalk

Ollieboy wrote:

but people say the WSOP is about donkey players etc, its a very tough event to cash

I have to disagree here Ollie, I would expect to be in the money in the main event about 1 in 3 goes. As for final tabling well obviously its the hardest final table to make just due to pure numbers.

As for the hand that you went out on, it is tough to fold it once youve put that much of your stack in, just unlucky is all. I have some bubble issues in big tournaments also.

Gholimoli

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I have some bubble issues in big tournaments also.

just a couple
stop thinking you gotta get all the chips just becuase its the bubble and you will be fine.

bops

MrPillowTalk wrote:

I have to disagree here Ollie, I would expect to be in the money in the main event about 1 in 3 goes.

This is very doubtful considering that the front door or the Rio measures 12' by 10' - I can't see you ever squeezing your head through that


PS better luck next year Ollie

ianmc38

bops wrote:

This is very doubtful considering that the front door or the Rio measures 12' by 10' - I can't see you ever squeezing your head through that

LMAO!

Gholimoli

bops wrote:

This is very doubtful considering that the front door or the Rio measures 12' by 10' - I can't see you ever squeezing your head through that


PS better luck next year Ollie

how do you like them applz Pillow

El Stuntman

bops wrote:

This is very doubtful considering that the front door or the Rio measures 12' by 10' - I can't see you ever squeezing your head through that

LOL

jaysus bops, you're on top form today!!

stick it to that know-nothing Pillow Talk dude (sure we can all win 50k in a week....)

mewso

Excellent post Ollie. A good insight into how tough these events can be. The great thing is you taught me a lesson on how to deal with these blows in that once you were out you stayed completely sober all day.

Goodluck2me

Ollieboy wrote:

This was the WSOP main event

no it wasnt, this happened last night in the red cow!;) and thanks for that pro comment...:cool:

BigCityBanker

It appears that BOPS has just CRAI against MrPillowTalk. It will be interesting to see how this hand will play out once the players reveal their pocket cards.