Someone please explain to me the mindset of this cyclist

daymobrew

rubadub wrote:

That cycle track is terrible, I am on it every day.

This cycle track comes up frequently here. Has anyone nagged the local authority about the state of it? They probably won't fix the rollercoaster aspect but they can make an effort to clear up the glass.

blorg

I cycled along that way at lunchtime. Normally I avoid that lane entirely by going through Foxrock, it's just that bad. But in the interests of science...



(1) Bus parked in bus stop makes getting on to lane difficult in the first place (note: he was parked, not stopped, there is no driver in the bus.) (2) the Foxrock church bus stop; not so bad now (although the fallen leaves aren't great) but awful in the morning with lots of pedestrians. Note roadworks on cycle lane ahead and van blocking. (3) Pine Avenue crossing. Car blocking cyclist path (note stop line behind him.) This is the notorious kerb; in fairness it has just been replaced by the roadworks for one that is NOT so bad. Note roadworks on lane just beyond the car. (4) A van was parked here on the lane and was completely blocking it with an open door. Note car blocking lane in distance much like previous one. (5) General condition coming up to Leopardstown Road. (6) Quick look on the other side, yes, there's a van parked there. Believe it or not there was a car parked _right beside_ this van half in the lane half in the bus lane but I didn't get a photo on time. (7) No way for cyclists to continue on N11, you are swept around onto Leopardstown Road. (8) Closer view of surface.

Was also swiped by a car who went past in the bus lane and turned sharply into Kilgobbin Lane (or whatever it's called) in front of me. The continuation into Leopardstown is worse:



Yes, cycle path goes up an absurd embankment (complete with oncoming cyclist), then there is a car parked right in the middle of it, and then it just twists around and terminates suddenly. Further on it goes into bumpy driveway mode with a vengance.

breadmonkey- why did you post a question here if you are not willing to listen to polite and considered replies from people trying to actually explain why cyclists don't use certain lanes? The lane may be suitable for _you_ as an occasional cyclist but it is not for people whose bike is their main mode of transport. A very simple rule of thumb: if you wouldn't expect someone to drive on it, don't expect someone to cycle on it.

blorg

By the way probably worth adding that I saw roadwork cones in the lane over the other side of the road also.

Bunnyhopper

@blorg: Nice post. Thanks.

Trojan

Great posts both of you, blorg and bunnyhopper.

hunnymonster

great pictures BLorg. I didn't know that part of town so didn't feel qualidied to make a comment but those photo's show a path I wouldn't use. It's not safe.

blorg

Yeah, and this is actually a _really_ short bit of lane, maybe 1-1.5km at most out of a 30km spin. I regularly do this at lunchtime, Sandyford to Eniskerry and then back along the N11 from the base of the Sugar Loaf. I am able to use the cycle track all the way where there is one except for that section (which I avoid by going through Foxrock.) It's truly terrible.

breadmonkey- you might consider how many cyclists you see cycling out of the cycle lane when it's actually a seperate lane _on_ the road. Few, I would imagine (excepting here the bit between Nutley Lane and UCD as it is full of holes and debris.)

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

well then if they are no good and cyclists don't use them.... get rid of them.

Probably meant as a troll but this is actually a _very_ good suggestion. Research shows that cyclists are safer integrated with road traffic _on_ the road and that cycle lanes actually increase injuries. Off-road tracks are the most dangerous, primarily due to the problems for cyclists rejoining the road at junctions.

Getting rid of off-road cycle tracks entirely and widening an adjoining bus lane to the left-hand side of the previous off-road cycle track would leave you with a _very_ wide bus lane indeed. This would give cyclists plenty of room in a lane relatively empty most of the time while also giving buses plenty of room to safely overtake them.

Removing the cycle lane is doubly a good idea here as then presumably motorists (and bus drivers) will no longer be able to display the same anger towards cyclists for "not using the f***ing bike lane" and everyone can try to get along with consideration and courtesy.

Cycle lanes are an invention by motorists and for motorists to keep cyclists off the road and out of the way. They are not designed to benefit cyclists.

daymobrew

blorg wrote:

Getting rid of off-road cycle tracks entirely and widening an adjoining bus lane to the left-hand side of the previous off-road cycle track would leave you with a _very_ wide bus lane indeed. This would give cyclists plenty of room in a lane relatively empty most of the time while also giving buses plenty of room to safely overtake them.

In that situation they could copy how it is on the eastbound Navan Road between Ashtown and Cabra: on-road cycle track, bus lane and then regular lane.
It's my favourite part of my commute because of the nice distance between me and the cars (the surface is good and the road is flat). Obviously there are often cars using the bus lane or cars parked half on path/half on cycle track, but it is mostly quite clear and fast.

PS having a marked cycle track on the _very_ wide bus lane, makes it clear to bus drivers where they should and shouldn't drive (unlike the tailgater this morning who was encroaching the cycle track).

RedPlanet

Sounds like the OP was trolling.
He never really responded to any of the valid points people raised.
And he's a Civil Engineer?
I suppose things like this cycle lane are exactly what other motorist-centric Civil Engineers have designed.

Go figure.

cast_iron

DirkVoodoo wrote:

Yeah, I openly refuse to cycle down the teeth-shattering, crotch-thumping stretch of cycle lane on the N11 just past the Esso station in black rock. They paved the bits between driveways so that you have this kind of sinusoidal stretch of cycle track that is both uncomfortable and dangerous to cycle on.

Yes, that stretch is nothing short of a disgrace.
It was only done about 2 years ago - by Sierra Communications, i think.

I blame no one but the council for letting them away with it.

blorg

daymobrew wrote:

In that situation they could copy how it is on the eastbound Navan Road between Ashtown and Cabra: on-road cycle track, bus lane and then regular lane.
It's my favourite part of my commute because of the nice distance between me and the cars (the surface is good and the road is flat). Obviously there are often cars using the bus lane or cars parked half on path/half on cycle track, but it is mostly quite clear and fast.

PS having a marked cycle track on the _very_ wide bus lane, makes it clear to bus drivers where they should and shouldn't drive (unlike the tailgater this morning who was encroaching the cycle track).

I'm in two minds about this, I guess my idea is that if the bus lane is wide enough it shouldn't _need_ a seperately marked cycle lane.

On the one hand, it _does_ demarcate a clear 'bit for the cyclist' that I feel somewhat safe as long as I stay in.

On the other hand that bit tends to be far too narrow and forces the cyclist to stick far closer to the kerb (where all the debris etc is) than they might do had they the legal use of the full wide buslane.

I have also had plenty of experiences in such lanes where a bus flies past me at a high speed with two wheels on the cycle lane line; I feel it tends to encourage overtaking far faster and closer than might otherwise occur.

DirkVoodoo

blorg wrote:

Ah ok, yes, well that part has several problems. Downhill towards Foxrock church it is of the kerby variety - bounces up and down driveways continually. Utterly uncyclable on at any reasonable speed. On the other side it has some truly awful features - the way it weaves around the bus stop opposite Foxrock church is very dangerous and the path around there is littered with pedestrians. Immediately after this bus stop it crosses a road (Pine Avenue?) which has a really nasty hard kerb in the middle which will take out your rim if you are going at any speed. Further on it is again kerby, up and down the driveways, has at least one more dangerous intersection and bus stop before sweeping a cyclist around onto Leopardstown road even if they want to continue straight along the N11.

Incidentally that very same cycle path was actually closed recently as roadworks were being carried out, although they are now finished. Once you are off it is difficult to get back on easily.

The path is designed for, and suitable for, slow moving weekend cyclists and children. A mountain bike is essential. It is utterly unsuitable for commuters/fast moving cyclists on road bikes or indeed hybrids.

I honestly hope the above helps explain the situation to you breadmonkey; you might note that cyclists are actually more likely to use paths other than this particular one, which is one of the worst in Dublin.

Too true, this is on my main route so i can attest to its danger. There is a massive pot hole when heading from whites cross to foxorck church, not to mention that at the traffic lights for loretto/springfield, they have placed two poles ridiculously close together. Since you are travelling at speed and over an uneven surface, it can be tough to steer between the two without clipping either one. You could slow down, but that would defeat the purpose of cycling downhill

DirkVoodoo

rubadub wrote:

It is full of wandering pedestrians (why do they not use the perfectly good path which is in far better condition?).

Also, this really grinds my gears (no pun intended)...why do ppl wander in and out of cycle lanes. I was headin down past foxrock church and this guy was doing that "walking aimlessly while engaged on the phone" routine. I couldnt tell where his next step was gonna be and ended up pretty close to him as i went past.

You wouldnt expect someone to have a wander around the middle of the road while waiting for a bus, so why do ppl insist on doing it in cycle lanes?

ALSO: cast_iron, are sierra the guys who are doing the road works along the foxorck-whites cross stretch that dont seem to be making any progress over the past month, rarely have ppl working on them and like to park on the cycle lanes? Ok, Rant over...apologies if i offended anyone.

Trojan

You wouldnt expect someone to have a wander around the middle of the road while waiting for a bus, so why do ppl insist on doing it in cycle lanes?

I'm getting tempted to get an AirZound

blorg

DirkVoodoo wrote:

You wouldnt expect someone to have a wander around the middle of the road while waiting for a bus, so why do ppl insist on doing it in cycle lanes?

It's because they are effectively footpaths. If you design something that looks like a footpath, is on the same level as a footpath, or is even just a set of lines painted on a footpath, people are going to walk in it, end of story. Cyclists belong on the roads, not on the footpath.

Trojan

Sounds like breadmonkey, faced with fact and logic, has scarpered. I wonder if he still thinks he didn't "get anywhere here"

daymobrew

blorg wrote:

Cyclists belong on the roads, not on the footpath.

I used to think this but I have been influenced by the Fingal Safe Cycling Action Group. Ken feels that off-road cycle tracks are needed for younger cyclists, who are not experienced and/or confident enough to be on the road. I now feel that there is room for both types, though when only one type is present, it should not be compulsory to use.

ednwireland

cycle lane best pracice in the uk !
http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3774

i was a student in nottingham and cycled everywhere
is there a set of bike triggered traffic lights anywhere in ireland ?
i actually feel sorry for commuting cyclists here i wouldnt think of it on the country roads round me someone would definitley take me out.

blorg

daymobrew, I completely agree with you, off-road lanes are indeed valuable for children cycling, I thought of adding that as an addendum to my post. They are also valuable for the occasional adult cyclist, basically anyone who is happy to trundle along relatively slowly. But they are quite unsuitable for anyone using a bike for actual transport and who is going at speed, it's dangerous not just for the cyclist but also pedestrians.

The dangerous junction design is a big problem, and more needs to be done to encourage pedestrians to keep off them. But even more serious is that the effect that the very presence of a cycle lane has on motorists. I am not sure that a simple change in the law would actually help motorist attitudes here; cycle lanes are _not_ compulsory in the UK but there are still plenty of stories of motorists demonstrating their feeling that cyclists should be in them (and even a conviction of a cyclist who was not using one.)

A few, like the Clontarf-Sutton one, are actually useful for all cyclists, mainly due to the length that path goes without junctions. It might be somewhat beneficial though to change the colour of the cycle section, include a slightly raised ridge between it and the pedestrian section, and post signs reminding pedestrians/joggers etc. to stay off though. Again this is purely from a safety point of view.

jman0

I agree with blorg, cyclists belong on the road.
Having said that, children belong on footpaths.
Regardless if they are on foot or on a bike.
We don't need dedicated off-road cycle tracks at all.
We just need footpaths for pedestrians and children on bikes.

Ghost Rider

This kind of thread gives me hope for Internet forums. The original poster's "question" (about a cyclist not using a cycle lane) was clearly intended rhetorically, and there was plenty of bait there for those who might be inclined to take it, yet the response posts were pitched way above the level of the usual slanging and name-calling. The result? A very illuminating, well informed and temperate discussion (notwithstanding the disappearance of the OP).

It's good PR for cyclists and cycling. Bravo.

DirkVoodoo

Well said ghost rider, it is nice when people maintain a healthy level of mature dialogue on forums such as these...and it has been informative.

rubadub

Great post blorg


In the morning there are always people standing behind this shelter, or bikes going very fast in the wrong direction. Worst offender is the fecking bus inspector guy, always standing in the way with his clip board, he should be the one moving people away from there!


For some reason they put the rounded kerb on the right of this photo really far out, if it was in closer you could cycle with ease on the road straight from one cycle track to the next. As it is taxis and buses drive too close to the side so it is not safe to go around this. Also many cars tend to break the red lights at the filter here turning up to drop the kids off to school.




I try to get onto the road to skip that bizarre bit of road design. You struggle up the hill then fly down the other side only to have to brake since there is a big kerb that could easily have been a lead onto the other side. At least the second kerb is small, but cars are sometimes sticking their nose out to stop you going onto the kerb easily. Most cars are grand there though, they are coming from an estate so know cyclists skip up onto the kerb there. I saw that car parked there too, would have been about 8.50am.

jman0

http://img13.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=88626_13_122_382lo.JPG

What's a cyclist supposed to do when going straight?
Follow the bend around and use the pedestrian crossway like a little child?

Trojan

jman0 wrote:

http://img13.imagevenue.com/view.php?image=88626_13_122_382lo.JPG

What's a cyclist supposed to do when going straight?
Follow the bend around and use the pedestrian crossway like a little child?

Think you got the link wrong there, but cheers anyway.

Capt'n Midnight

ednwireland wrote:

i was a student in nottingham and cycled everywhere
is there a set of bike triggered traffic lights anywhere in ireland ?

AFAIK the metal detectors / loop that is supposed to detect cars at light won't pick up bikes.

RainyDay

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

customer is someone who pays for goods or services...
unlike other road users, cyclists don't pay anything for anything so i don't know how you can class them as customers.

Wow - the ignorance here is overwhelming. As other posters have pointed out, even if you ignore road tax/vehicle tax, it is not unreasonable to assume that most cyclists (and most car drivers) pay tax through there employment.

But the real ignorance is shown through the assumption that cyclists and drivers are mutually exclusive and cyclists don't pay road tax/vehicle tax. Like many cyclists, I have a car - but I really prefer to commute on the bike for a whole range of reasons. I tend to bring the car 1 day a week to restock my locker with clothes, but I'd cycle 5 days a week if I could fit an ironed shirt onto my bike.

Thanks to Blorg for fantastic posts - Can't wait to hear the OP's response....

Civilian_Target

blorg wrote:

But even more serious is that the effect that the very presence of a cycle lane has on motorists. I am not sure that a simple change in the law would actually help motorist attitudes here; cycle lanes are _not_ compulsory in the UK but there are still plenty of stories of motorists demonstrating their feeling that cyclists should be in them (and even a conviction of a cyclist who was not using one.)

Funny you should mention that, I was cycling down the Talgarth Road yesterday - it's a 3 lane road but all the junctions have light so it's reasonably accessible and because of the 25mph speed limit, reasonably safe. However, some scottish guy did a nicely dangerous overtaking manouver on me, and when I caught up with him (inevitable in London, bike is always faster) I tapped on his window and mentioned to him that he had come within a foot of killing me. His response was an unintellible stream of swearing that finished with "cycling beside the kerb on the left." Summed it up for me tbh, didn't even bothered replying just moseyed on...

cast_iron

DirkVoodoo wrote:

ALSO: cast_iron, are sierra the guys who are doing the road works along the foxorck-whites cross stretch that dont seem to be making any progress over the past month, rarely have ppl working on them and like to park on the cycle lanes? Ok, Rant over...apologies if i offended anyone.

I don't be out that way these days, but you will know them by the blue or yellow plastic barriers they use to cordon off the work area.
One would think that South Dublin would have all the necessary communications infrastructure necessary by now...:rolleyes:

breadmonkey

Trojan wrote:

Sounds like breadmonkey, faced with fact and logic, has scarpered. I wonder if he still thinks he didn't "get anywhere here"

What actually happened was I thought I'd leave you to mumble among yourselves about the state of cycle lanes..