Dublin bus driver (A day in the life)

spareman

I am posting this to try and help you people here understand the Job of bus driver with Dublin Bus, and maybe stop you guy's from blaming the bus driver for everything that goes wrong out there, A view from our side of the fence if you like!!

DUTY SHEET
duty start 06.38
dep garage 06.45
terminus 1 07.15
terminus 2 09.30
terminus 1 10.40
terminus 2 11.55
Break
terminus 2 12.50
terminus 1 14.10
finish duty 15.35

How it went
Get up at 05.30, get ready and drive to garage.

06.30 arrive garage (collect duty sheet, allocated bus, grab a coffee from macine and out to find my bus)

06.50 Dep garage (original bus had mecanical fault, delayed by going back in to depot to be allocated 2nd bus)

07.12 arrive terminus 1 (arrive at outer terminus and start to load straight away)

07.16 Dep terminus 1 (depart 1 min late, not bad considering I was delayed in the garage)

09.15 arrive terminus 2 (traffic not as bad as usual, made 15 mins, quick cuppa and a ciggy)

09.30 Dep terminus 2 (everything ok so far)

10.50 arive terminus 1 (not enough running time for traffic conditions, times have not changed on this route for 10 years, arrive 10 mins after I should have left.)

10.56 Dep terminus 1 (16 mins late)

12.24 terminus 2 (arrive 29 mins late for my break, delayed due to extra passenger loading due to leaving other terminus 16 mins late)

break (21 mins to eat my lunch, use the toilet etc.)

12.45 terminus 2 (go back 5 mins before I leave to check bus, and scrolls etc, then load passengers)

12.50 Dep terminus 2 (its wednesday so schools have a half day, my route takes me past 6/7 secondry schools, bus packed, unable to take all passengers who want to use the bus, had to leave about 20 waiting for next bus who was 30 mins behind me, there is an extra bus on for the schools but unfortunatly it operates at 15.30 mon to fri)

14.35 arrive terminus 1 (ok Im 25 mins late, need to have a quick ciggerette and stretch the legs after that journey, then the usual what time you going at questions, call control to see what they want me to do, sometimes they send me back down empty, they want me to work away because the bus behind is no where near me)

14.43 Dep terminus 1 (passengers are really angry at me, everyone giving out saying the 14.10 bus never turned up, I just say I dont know why it didnt and pretend Im the 14.40 service, they cant handle the truth, really busy now due to being 30 mins late, absoulute nightmare journey, packed bus full of cranky passengers, and the traffic is starting to build for rush hour again.)

16.20 arrive terminus 2 (typical day in the life really, ended with me being 45 mins late finishing, what can you do I was stuck and could not finish on time)

I take a bus as a passenger back to the garage to get my car and head for home in the hieght of rush hour now. arrive home 18.15, first thing the other half say's "I thaught you were finished at 15.35" So did I honey, So did I, she's getting used to it now though, but Im not, Do I want to do this till Im 65? Im not sure yet, I love driving buses, and although my terms of employment are fairly good, In my opinion my employer couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery with a fist full of 20's as they say, This is not the worst day, just an average day, you dont want to hear about the worst day, Trust me. My employer= Minister for transport

shltter

TBH your mad you should have taken your full break
21 minutes of a break is no where near long enough you have an accident because you were tired and had **** all of a break and the company wont want to know it will be completely down to you. The fact that the company allowed you to do that is irrelevant at the end of the day it is your license and it is up to you to look after it.
Trust me you have an accident and those checkers telling you what a great lad you are for helping them out won't be seen for dust you are on your own.

spareman

shltter wrote:

TBH your mad you should have taken your full break
21 minutes of a break is no where near long enough you have an accident because you were tired and had **** all of a break and the company wont want to know it will be completely down to you. The fact that the company allowed you to do that is irrelevant at the end of the day it is your license and it is up to you to look after it.
Trust me you have an accident and those checkers telling you what a great lad you are for helping them out won't be seen for dust you are on your own.

Agree 99%, But my break was not in the garage, and there would not have been anyone else to cover me if I took my full break, also chance's are I would have been marked up on the worst available duty for the rest of the week, also be out of flavour with the stance Inspector at that location, you know how it is you look after them and they look after you, as long as you dont have an accident and need back up!!

MiniD

It's worrying to think you had a bus full of passengers at 4pm in the afternoon when you had been driving since 6am with only a 20 minute break.

corktina

what is your Unions opinion on that one?

(i know you are trying to provide a decent service by cutting your break short, but you shouldnt be put in that position really....)

murphaph

Good post spareman. I take it that in order for you not to be a 'spareman' that you need to be a 'good boy' to get a regular route, is that correct? I also work longer than I'm paid for to get promotions etc. but I'm not driving a bus full of passengers about. The system clearly at fault for letting you do that. They obviously know it goes on. I blame the government, plain and simple.

Wishbone Ash

And spare a thought for those drivers who live quite a distance from their workplace. I know a few lads who drive buses in Dublin but live in the midlands. They could have 2 hours driving done before commencing duty and then another 2 hours after koocking off.

shltter

spareman wrote:

Agree 99%, But my break was not in the garage, and there would not have been anyone else to cover me if I took my full break, also chance's are I would have been marked up on the worst available duty for the rest of the week, also be out of flavour with the stance Inspector at that location, you know how it is you look after them and they look after you, as long as you dont have an accident and need back up!!

Ah I didn't think you were still a spareman other than by name.

I understand that they kind of have you by the short and curlies but at the same time the fact that there is no one there to cover your journey is not your responsibility that is the companies responsibility.
I understand that you dont want to leave people standing around waiting for a bus that will not come but you have to ask yourself is are you really doing them a favour by working like that god forbid that you have an accident nobody will give you any brownie points that you had virtually no break.

Also as long as you do things like that there is no incentive on the company to rectify the situation whether it is the running time or having extra available staff.

PS in my experience those that stand up for themselves tend to get better treatment than those who will accept anything.

shltter

murphaph wrote:

Good post spareman. I take it that in order for you not to be a 'spareman' that you need to be a 'good boy' to get a regular route, is that correct? I also work longer than I'm paid for to get promotions etc. but I'm not driving a bus full of passengers about. The system clearly at fault for letting you do that. They obviously know it goes on. I blame the government, plain and simple.

No it is a matter of time depending on what garage you are based in it could take 10 years or more.
While he is a spareman he gets marked up on duties from day to day ie he finds out at 1pm today what hours he will be working tomorrow.
The duties are supposed to be spread out as fairly as possible amongst the spare staff so that they all get good duties and bad duties.
What spareman is afraid of is that if he stands up for himself he will be punished by getting bad duties to teach him a lesson.
Officially of course they cannot do that but proving it is hard.

lostexpectation

spareman wrote:

I am posting this to try and help you people here understand the Job of bus driver with Dublin Bus, and maybe stop you guy's from blaming the bus driver for everything that goes wrong out there, A view from our side of the fence if you like!!




12.50 Dep terminus 2 (its wednesday so schools have a half day, my route takes me past 6/7 secondry schools, bus packed, unable to take all passengers who want to use the bus, had to leave about 20 waiting for next bus who was 30 mins behind me, there is an extra bus on for the schools but unfortunatly it operates at 15.30 mon to fri)

do all those schools finish early on wednesday, you think they change it, thats proably been going on for 30 years...

spareman

MiniD wrote:

It's worrying to think you had a bus full of passengers at 4pm in the afternoon when you had been driving since 6am with only a 20 minute break.

To be honest I dont think tiredness at this stage would be a real factor, however if I was to do overtime when I finished my shift say work the first half of a late duty and finish around 10pm, then your talking danger, some driver's have worked from 6am to 1am, it's called a double day, happens alot when thay are short staffed, Ive never done it but sometimes wonder how they manage to stay awake.

shltter wrote:

Also as long as you do things like that there is no incentive on the company to rectify the situation whether it is the running time or having extra available staff.

PS in my experience those that stand up for themselves tend to get better treatment than those who will accept anything.

In my opinion its up to the marked in driver's on the route to ensure all duties have good running time, As sparemen we have no voice on running times or duty times unfortunatly.
I agree with you on standing up to inspectors, normally I wouldn't take such a short break, but the Inspector had done me a favour during the week. There is a pressure on spare driver's to do what they are told by the inspectors and not many know there full rights in situations like this, the unions should make a booklet of these entitlements for all new driver's.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

And spare a thought for those drivers who live quite a distance from their workplace. I know a few lads who drive buses in Dublin but live in the midlands. They could have 2 hours driving done before commencing duty and then another 2 hours after koocking off.

True, many in my garage have a 2 hour drive before they even start and 2 hours home, some driving 12/15 hours a day without overtime, they simply cant afford to live in Dublin, again I cant understand how they stay awake on there way home.

lostexpectation wrote:

do all those schools finish early on wednesday, you think they change it, thats proably been going on for 30 years...
Today 15:39

The driver who drives the 15.30 bus works till 1am, you cant have him in early on a wednesday or there would be no evening service, timetables are mon to fri, Sat and Sun, its down to the operations manager to get an extra bus on the route on a wednesday, but he will say he hasn't got any spare buses mon-fri.

corktina wrote:

what is your Unions opinion on that one?

(i know you are trying to provide a decent service by cutting your break short, but you shouldnt be put in that position really....)

Dont mention the War!! Me and unions dont really see eye to eye at the moment, imo they are too busy sorting out compensation packages for marked in driver's, to be concerned with these kind of trivual problems encountered by the spare staff on a daily basis. There is a real conflict of interest for the unions to be representing both spare staff and marked in drivers, sparemen end up losing everytime, there is an old saying in Dublin Bus "Fu*k the spareman". So I dont believe the spare staff have a voice in anything that goes on, operational changes or whatever, everything is catered towards the marked in driver's, most sparemen just shut up and get on with it as we will all be marked in men eventually.

shltter wrote:

While he is a spareman he gets marked up on duties from day to day ie he finds out at 1pm today what hours he will be working tomorrow.

There's gotta be a law somewhere against this, grown men unable to tell there families what time they are finished work tomorrow at?
Again if this was challeged in the labour court it would totally fook up the marked in man's handy Job, the unions dont want to know as there is a conflict of interest on it and we will all be marked in driver's one day and wont want to fook it up for ourselves.
Marked in men say we had to do it too, but they didnt have to do 10 years of it, in those days it was 3 years max, some less than 1 year.

shltter

spareman wrote:

In my opinion its up to the marked in driver's on the route to ensure all duties have good running time, As sparemen we have no voice on running times or duty times unfortunatly.
I agree with you on standing up to inspectors, normally I wouldn't take such a short break, but the Inspector had done me a favour during the week. There is a pressure on spare driver's to do what they are told by the inspectors and not many know there full rights in situations like this, the unions should make a booklet of these entitlements for all new driver's.

Well it is more in the interest of marked in drivers but my point is that it is not up to you to make up for the shortcoming of the company in relation to running time or staff shortages.
Fair enough on a once off but if it is regular or continous then it is up to the company.

spareman wrote:

Dont mention the War!! Me and unions dont really see eye to eye at the moment, imo they are too busy sorting out compensation packages for marked in driver's, to be concerned with these kind of trivual problems encountered by the spare staff on a daily basis. There is a real conflict of interest for the unions to be representing both spare staff and marked in drivers, sparemen end up losing everytime, there is an old saying in Dublin Bus "Fu*k the spareman". So I dont believe the spare staff have a voice in anything that goes on, operational changes or whatever, everything is catered towards the marked in driver's, most sparemen just shut up and get on with it as we will all be marked in men eventually.




There's gotta be a law somewhere against this, grown men unable to tell there families what time they are finished work tomorrow at?
Again if this was challeged in the labour court it would totally fook up the marked in man's handy Job, the unions dont want to know as there is a conflict of interest on it and we will all be marked in driver's one day and wont want to fook it up for ourselves.
Marked in men say we had to do it too, but they didnt have to do 10 years of it, in those days it was 3 years max, some less than 1 year.

That is not true yeah some guys who are there 30 years or whatever got marked in quickly but it took me nearly 8 years to get marked in.
Have you a suggestion that would sort out the spareman issue unfortunately that is the nature of the job.
There was a suggestion a while back that the company would have a semi marked in rota for the more senior sparemen made up of dutys that are empty long term sick or planned absence such as holidays but the spareman themselves did not want it because they might miss out on good cars that come up late due to illness etc.
Also the Union is made up of the membership sparemen are union reps as well obviously if you are not happy with your rep put yourself forward the next time. And if you think you have a case bring it to the Labour Court you dont need a union but to be honest that is your contract and it is the nature of the job.
TBH I sympathise being spare is **** but I did it and unfortunately you have to do it as well being marked in is not a handy job it is the same job just that you can plan a bit better.

DerekP11

This thread is an example wofwhat was I waiting on to demonstrate that transport unions within CIE are only out for themselves and "marked in " members. For all the criticism people have levelled at these unions and all the defense that was offered, is it really an aspiration of a Dublin Bus driver to get "marked in" so he/she has better union protection and more say in his/her working day? If so, its pathetic.

Spareman and shltter work for the same company in presumedly the same role and the "division" is very noticeable. As Im well known for sitting on the fence in relation to the management/union issue (according to commentators) I will continue to take this stance (I blame both sides for encouraging the "culture") as this thread highlights the poor practise. CIE unions have created a cosy cartel that suits hardened members and management. The culture of unions and associated work practises is outdated. Its obvious from this thread and from my own investigations that a lot of CIE staff are very unhappy with unions and management,(and working conditions) yet there remains a section that enshrines itself to the "old way" while "dissenters are hung out to dry. The cartel.

As an example, there are railway employees in this country with a leaky locker room. (rain gets in) They tell me that the management and union have no interest in fixing it.

Id be interested in hearing more from shltter and spareman from a "bus" perspective, as customers (who were referred to frequently in sparemans original post) also suffer from these poorly functioning mechanisms that are management and unions.

Wishbone Ash

DerekP11 wrote:

Its obvious from this thread and from my own investigations that a lot of CIE staff are very unhappy with unions and management,(and working conditions) yet there remains a section that enshrines itself to the "old way" while "dissenters are hung out to dry

You seem to forget that a 'union' is the employees and it gains it's strength from those employees. It does not operate outside of the wishes of it's members.

Lorax

What do u do if u catch ppl spraying graffiti upstairs , just out of curiousity because I know the camera can't see a particular spot..

Thanks for posting that spareman - nice to read what the drivers go through.

spareman

Lorax wrote:

What do u do if u catch ppl spraying graffiti upstairs , just out of curiousity because I know the camera can't see a particular spot..

How do you know where the camera's cant see?
I spend 8 hours or more a day on buses and I dont know, please tell.
Once a passenger getting off the bus told me people upstairs were writing all over the bus, I called control and they met me en route with the Gardai who removed the culprits, dont know what happened to them after that.

DerekP11

Wishbone Ash wrote:

You seem to forget that a 'union' is the employees and it gains it's strength from those employees. It does not operate outside of the wishes of it's members.

Well, with all respect to your opinion, I must say that its a very innocent view of the union set up within CIE. Many staff members are very unhappy with the "arrangement" between "their" union and management.

Last May, Unions failed to convey the truth about the cause of the rail dispute that made national headlines. Cork train drivers were asked to drive a new MK 4 train that wasn't even on the platform or ready for service. They refused, due to lack of training, which turned out to be true, but were prepared to drive the train that was actually on the platform in Cork. Management insisted that it was the new train or no train at all, despite them knowing that this was an issue with drivers and the new train was incapable of service. The unions failed miserably to represent, thereby copperfastening the belief that drivers simply refused to work. The media ran with the Irish Rail viewpoint, unions stayed quiet and the rest is media history.

Irish Rail management and the unions are more like a mafia than the staff. But its the staff that always take the flak.Thats a take it or leave it fact, that Im embracing from experience. No doubt the same thing goes on in DB and BE. Some posts on this thread reveal that.

the_syco

Not sure if its the case in the OP's garage, but in some places there are "spare drivers", without a bus to drive. Really pisses them off, as they're bored, and also as there should be buses available, but there is a spare bus elsewhere

Victor

spareman wrote:

Once a passenger getting off the bus told me people upstairs were writing all over the bus, I called control and they met me en route with the Gardai who removed the culprits, dont know what happened to them after that.

There was a 'lad' smoking something exotic on my way home during the week. I mentioned it to the driver and he must have radioed it in. Pulled up outside Pizza Hut in Rathmines and were met by Garda car a few minutes later.

Whatever came of the conversation, the cop must have told him "we'll have to take this back to the station and the guy goes to get into the back of the Garda car. The Garda says "Eh, no sonny."

See image. [Damn, need another machine to upload images]

shltter

DerekP11 wrote:

This thread is an example wofwhat was I waiting on to demonstrate that transport unions within CIE are only out for themselves and "marked in " members. For all the criticism people have levelled at these unions and all the defense that was offered, is it really an aspiration of a Dublin Bus driver to get "marked in" so he/she has better union protection and more say in his/her working day? If so, its pathetic.

Spareman and shltter work for the same company in presumedly the same role and the "division" is very noticeable. As Im well known for sitting on the fence in relation to the management/union issue (according to commentators) I will continue to take this stance (I blame both sides for encouraging the "culture") as this thread highlights the poor practise. CIE unions have created a cosy cartel that suits hardened members and management. The culture of unions and associated work practises is outdated. Its obvious from this thread and from my own investigations that a lot of CIE staff are very unhappy with unions and management,(and working conditions) yet there remains a section that enshrines itself to the "old way" while "dissenters are hung out to dry. The cartel.

As an example, there are railway employees in this country with a leaky locker room. (rain gets in) They tell me that the management and union have no interest in fixing it.

Id be interested in hearing more from shltter and spareman from a "bus" perspective, as customers (who were referred to frequently in sparemans original post) also suffer from these poorly functioning mechanisms that are management and unions.

No sparemen moan about being spare that is life I moaned when I was spare and in a couple of years time the O/P will be marked in and some other poor ****er will be moaning about the hard time he is having and how the unions don't care about the spareman. As I have mentioned a proposal to make sparemens lifes a bit easier was rejected by them because they might miss out on good duties that come available late.

Being spare is kind of like an apprenticeship. And as in any job you dont walk in and have the same entitlements as someone who has been there for years.


Yes a lot of people are unhappy but guess what that is the same in most unions in this country under partnership it is not reserved to CIE or the NBRU or SIPTU. I know people working in private companies represented by various unions like the ATGWU who complain just as much about their union and its lack of teeth.
Partnership has taken away the Unions teeth and in many cases made them lazy as in your example in IE but it is up to the membership to give them a kick in the arse every now and then.

And being marked in does not give anyone better union protection what it does is take away the power of a controller as to what duty you will work.That is the protection it is nothing to do with union protection.

Personally I am sick of this ****e talk about outdated practises and union culture give us specific example of what outdated practises and what union culture. Because I will tell you now that whilst I have my disagreements with the trade unions on various things I would not like to be in DB without them. A quick glance at the working conditions of a Premier Bus service operating in this city will quickly reveal what lies down that road.

My advice to spareman is if you are not happy with your representation change it the union does not belong to Jack O Connor or Liam Tobin it belongs to the members.
How many times have you put your name forward for election to a position in your union or are you just happy to moan about your reps and have a moan here and play into the hands of the anti union anti CIE posters that abound here.

There is no difference between sparemen and marked in men just as there is no difference between junior marked in men and senior men that can choose whatever route they like.

shltter

the_syco wrote:

Not sure if its the case in the OP's garage, but in some places there are "spare drivers", without a bus to drive. Really pisses them off, as they're bored, and also as there should be buses available, but there is a spare bus elsewhere

Yeah sitting around playing pool all day is a real pain in the arse
there should be spare drivers in all garages with no bus to drive not too many just a couple.

That way if a driver feels sick or his wife goes into labor or his/her child falls of their bike and cracks their skull etc etc they can go and be replaced quickly

over a thousand buses out there that kind of thing is going to happen every single day and it is good practise to be able to cover it when it does happen.

corktina

Victor wrote:

There was a 'lad' smoking something exotic on my way home during the week. I mentioned it to the driver and he must have radioed it in. Pulled up outside Pizza Hut in Rathmines and were met by Garda car a few minutes later.

Whatever came of the conversation, the cop must have told him "we'll have to take this back to the station and the guy goes to get into the back of the Garda car. The Garda says "Eh, no sonny."

See image. [Damn, need another machine to upload images]

grass........:)








he was smokin' grass....:)

SickCert

I drove that pathetic duty in 1999 (same times) as 2006 - i think the times go back to 1996? There was a new bill in 2003/4 but the spare duties were not touched.
Several times i broke really late and in 99 there was no stance man in this terminus and the 'thing' on the radio simply tells you that you must return - chancing his arm with you being new and spare.
With heading into the santa season this duty will lose time every day now and the poor driver will get nothing but abuse from all.

And the skulls wonder why were pee'd off, not willing to help, aggressive and not very happy. Were on the verge of exhaustion, alarm goes off at 445am then you leave the bus after 4pm with 20mins away from the wheel.

SickCert

shltter wrote:

Yeah sitting around playing pool all day is a real pain in the arse
there should be spare drivers in all garages with no bus to drive not too many just a couple.

That way if a driver feels sick or his wife goes into labor or his/her child falls of their bike and cracks their skull etc etc they can go and be replaced quickly

over a thousand buses out there that kind of thing is going to happen every single day and it is good practise to be able to cover it when it does happen.

In my spare days not too long ago there could be upto 25 drivers spare a day. 2 at 6am the 2 at 615am and so on.
By 10am you have a snooker tournament going and the depot inspector sends you on your break which means you continue what your doing! Soul destroying and then (back in 99/00) they would hold you to 2pm even though more spare lads came in at 11,12 and 1.

Ste.phen

If there really are that many Spare drivers doing nothing, surely one solution to the sort of problem the OP outlined would be:
Once the 'regular' drivers had all shown in:
- Keep an eye out for drivers who are starting to run late.
- Send a spare out to meet them at the terminus when they arrive there(late)*
- Have the spare driver take the next departure, leaving the original to either ride back as a passenger, or go off on their merry way for a break

* - this is where this idea is likely to fail most severely in implementation - how to get a spare to the terminus before the original guy gets there, i suppose they could do a driver change at some intermediate point?

shltter

Igy wrote:

If there really are that many Spare drivers doing nothing, surely one solution to the sort of problem the OP outlined would be:
Once the 'regular' drivers had all shown in:
- Keep an eye out for drivers who are starting to run late.
- Send a spare out to meet them at the terminus when they arrive there(late)*
- Have the spare driver take the next departure, leaving the original to either ride back as a passenger, or go off on their merry way for a break

* - this is where this idea is likely to fail most severely in implementation - how to get a spare to the terminus before the original guy gets there, i suppose they could do a driver change at some intermediate point?

Spare drivers with spare buses might help but spare drivers on there own would not really be of much benefit.
Besides which there are not loads of spare drivers around if there was the O/p could have taken his full break.
It is the nature of the job some days there can be spare drivers sitting around the next day they are screaming looking for people to do overtime.

shltter

SickCert wrote:

In my spare days not too long ago there could be upto 25 drivers spare a day. 2 at 6am the 2 at 615am and so on.
By 10am you have a snooker tournament going and the depot inspector sends you on your break which means you continue what your doing! Soul destroying and then (back in 99/00) they would hold you to 2pm even though more spare lads came in at 11,12 and 1.

Yeah at times of the year there can be but that is the nature of the job there are 1.65 drivers for each duty so at times of the year when there are not much holidays been taken or not much illness then you will obviously have drivers with no duties to operate.
Cant see how that can be avoided although interestingly Dublin Buses ratio of 1.65 per duty is one of the lowest in europe so I can only presume that those companies have either
A lot more Holidays
A higher level of sick time
or a lot more spare drivers sitting around

TBH some people hate it and some people love the fact that they are getting paid to watch Sky news and play snooker

Our man in Havana

Are idle spares paid the same as an active spare?

spareman

shltter wrote:

My advice to spareman is if you are not happy with your representation change it the union does not belong to Jack O Connor or Liam Tobin it belongs to the members.
How many times have you put your name forward for election to a position in your union or are you just happy to moan about your reps and have a moan here and play into the hands of the anti union anti CIE posters that abound here.

I have never put my name forward, but maybe in the future I will, A spare driver was elected recently in my garage and when I asked him about recent changes that effected spare driver's he said there was nothing he could do about it, he gave me the impression that he was ordered to obey by senior union reps, anyway I didnt post here to debate how the union handle issues relating to driver's conditions, 99% of sparemen will moan from time to time, but deep down we dont want it to change before we are marked in.

spareman

Bond-007 wrote:

Are idle spares paid the same as an active spare?

What do you think? they are making themselves available for work, if the government didn't buy enough buses for them, thats not there fault.

DerekP11

Personally I am sick of this ****e talk about outdated practises and union culture give us specific example of what outdated practises and what union culture.

Ok. Only because you asked.

Kildare commuter services are operated by Inchicore train drivers. The extension of these services to Pearse via the Phoenix Park tunnel on the forthcoming Sunday service cannot happen because Inchicore drivers cannot/will not operate scheduled services to an area controlled by Connolly shed.

Thats a bit outdated, isn't it. Its also a practise promoted by the unions. A practise that goes back over 50 years.

If you want more examples, let me know. Ive a list the length of my arm.

Our man in Havana

Like the drivers getting paid to walk from Pearse to Hueston to operate the Galway trains?

spareman

Bond-007 wrote:

Like the drivers getting paid to walk from Pearse to Hueston to operate the Galway trains?

Like the bus driver's with no buses, If the goverment invested in rail projects like linking up pearse and Hueston this wouldnt happen.

DerekP11

Bond-007 wrote:

Like the drivers getting paid to walk from Pearse to Hueston to operate the Galway trains?

Its a well known practise that Connolly shed drivers were taxi'd to Heuston to take over trains heading through the tunnel towards Connolly.

Anyway, I don't want to take the thread off topic. I was merely demonstrating to Shltter that some criticism of outdated work practises existed in the CIE group.

shltter

Bond-007 wrote:

Are idle spares paid the same as an active spare?

Yes

shltter

DerekP11 wrote:

Ok. Only because you asked.

Kildare commuter services are operated by Inchicore train drivers. The extension of these services to Pearse via the Phoenix Park tunnel on the forthcoming Sunday service cannot happen because Inchicore drivers cannot/will not operate scheduled services to an area controlled by Connolly shed.

Thats a bit outdated, isn't it. Its also a practise promoted by the unions. A practise that goes back over 50 years.

If you want more examples, let me know. Ive a list the length of my arm.

Oh well don't I feel embarrassed now

I refer you to the title of this thread

Now as far as I know Dublin Bus Dont operate any train services whilst the unions may have the same name I am sure you are well aware that the DB branches of Siptu and the NBRU are completely separate to the IE branches of those unions or indeed the BE branches
We have completely different wage rates and terms and conditions of employment.
Now since the comment you made was in on a thread about DB and was made in respect of DB can you gives examples in Dublin Bus please.

SickCert

Igy wrote:

If there really are that many Spare drivers doing nothing, surely one solution to the sort of problem the OP outlined would be:
Once the 'regular' drivers had all shown in:
- Keep an eye out for drivers who are starting to run late.
- Send a spare out to meet them at the terminus when they arrive there(late)*
- Have the spare driver take the next departure, leaving the original to either ride back as a passenger, or go off on their merry way for a break

* - this is where this idea is likely to fail most severely in implementation - how to get a spare to the terminus before the original guy gets there, i suppose they could do a driver change at some intermediate point?

OK to add to the confusion, if a service is running late the driver is entitled to make the final decision on wether he collects the late break bonus (1hr OT) or uses common sense and refuses to come back on time (cancelled trip). A good stanceman will suss this out in advance, while a bad one will do the osterich!

shltter

spareman wrote:

I have never put my name forward, but maybe in the future I will, A spare driver was elected recently in my garage and when I asked him about recent changes that effected spare driver's he said there was nothing he could do about it, he gave me the impression that he was ordered to obey by senior union reps, anyway I didnt post here to debate how the union handle issues relating to driver's conditions, 99% of sparemen will moan from time to time, but deep down we dont want it to change before we are marked in.

That is my point we all moan and we dont stop moaning when we get marked in we just moan about different things like the bill and how long it takes to get it changed. Being marked in is undoubtly a big improvement on being spare but it is no bed of roses and is certainly not handy.
It just shows that you only have to show people a little crack in the door here and they are in trying to sow and suggest division that is really not there.
As you say most sparemen complain but when faced with the alternatives they prefer to leave it the way it is.

SickCert

I still thinks its very unfair not to know what you are working the next day to 13:00hrs.

And before the computer system it was 13:00 if you turned up at 12:30 you were refused! You cant plan your week never mind the next day as if your early that could be 530am to 1300 OR 745am-1940pm and you are not told till 16hrs before, pathetic.

shltter

SickCert wrote:

OK to add to the confusion, if a service is running late the driver is entitled to make the final decision on wether he collects the late break bonus (1hr OT) or uses common sense and refuses to come back on time (cancelled trip). A good stanceman will suss this out in advance, while a bad one will do the osterich!

Only if his break would be less than 45 minutes or if he was running late at the outer terminus and the controller made no effort to regulate him and break him on time.

shltter

SickCert wrote:

I still thinks its very unfair not to know what you are working the next day to 13:00hrs.

And before the computer system it was 13:00 if you turned up at 12:30 you were refused! You cant plan your week never mind the next day as if your early that could be 530am to 1300 OR 745am-1940pm and you are not told till 16hrs before, pathetic.

Its a pain but it is hard to see how it could be any other way for at least some of the spare drivers
The company can not see into the future and know who will be sick etc the sparemen were offered an alternative where the more senior would be marked up in advance on duties that had planned absences but they turned it down because they were afraid that junior spareman might get better duties that came up late.

Wishbone Ash

Wishbone Ash wrote:

You seem to forget that a 'union' is the employees and it gains it's strength from those employees. It does not operate outside of the wishes of it's members.

DerekP11 wrote:

Well, with all respect to your opinion, I must say that its a very innocent view of the union set up within CIE. Many staff members are very unhappy with the "arrangement" between "their" union and management.

On re-reading my post, I realise that I badly expressed what I was trying to say. It's true to say that I'm not very familiar with the situation within DB but in most highly unionised workplaces the most senior or 'hardened' members appear to control the direction of the union and the decisions it takes. However, the main reason for this is that those members are much more likely to attend union meetings. They are much more likely to ballot. They are much more likely to attend the union's AGM and generally they have a greater tendency to utilise the services of their union.

At the AGM, each member of a union has an entitlement to speak. They also have an entitlement to propose a member of their choice for election to the officer board/branch committee. If there is more than one proposal a vote is taken. Unfortunately, if the meeting has a large number of senior members present their vested interests will take priority but that's democracy. If all the spare drivers attended their respective union's AGM, they could nominate a member of choice and would possibly have adequate numbers to succeed on a vote.

Younger workers frequently moan about the 'union' not supporting them. They seem to forget that they are that union. Many fail to attend the AGM or to ballot on crucial issues but will complain about 'the same old faces' being elected. These 'faces' are there because no one else was put forward.

That DerekP11, was basically the point I was trying to make.

DerekP11

Well, if you insist shltter.

Yes a lot of people are unhappy but guess what that is the same in most unions in this country under partnership it is not reserved to CIE or the NBRU or SIPTU. I know people working in private companies represented by various unions like the ATGWU who complain just as much about their union and its lack of teeth.
Partnership has taken away the Unions teeth and in many cases made them lazy as in your example in IE but it is up to the membership to give them a kick in the arse every now and then.

And being marked in does not give anyone better union protection what it does is take away the power of a controller as to what duty you will work.That is the protection it is nothing to do with union protection.

Personally I am sick of this ****e talk about outdated practises and union culture give us specific example of what outdated practises and what union culture. Because I will tell you now that whilst I have my disagreements with the trade unions on various things I would not like to be in DB without them. A quick glance at the working conditions of a Premier Bus service operating in this city will quickly reveal what lies down that road.

You quoted CIE and IE and a piece that included being sick of this ****e talk about outdated practises and union culture. I simply gave you an example in IE. If you want examples in DB, I'll post them up. But only if your certain you want me to? I don't like embarrassing the likes of yourself as I do respect you and the job you do. Its difficult and thankless. I didn't set out to cause any trouble and perhaps its better to continue along a thread relevent path. But if you insist, I'll happily post examples of outdated work practises and union culture in DB. I don't mind. However, I will do you the courtesy of stating that the railway side of CIE was always more militant in terms of work practises. However when CIE was formed this made its way into the Bus side of things.

SickCert

shltter wrote:

Only if his break would be less than 45 minutes or if he was running late at the outer terminus and the controller made no effort to regulate him and break him on time.

Even if he has more than 45mins he can claim the (€23)
If lower he can tell them to shove it, which i do on Bray whenever i get a chance.
Most controller make little effort till they know who will play ball or not.
And the (€23) after tax is more like €13 so TAKE the break!

shltter

SickCert wrote:

Even if he has more than 45mins he can claim the (€23)
If lower he can tell them to shove it, which i do on Bray whenever i get a chance.
Most controller make little effort till they know who will play ball or not.
And the (€23) after tax is more like €13 so TAKE the break!

If you have more than 45 minutes it is at the discretion of the controller as long as you left the outer terminus on time. He can give you the O/T or he can tell you to take your full break.

If it is under the 45 minutes then it is at the discretion of the driver as to what he wants to do.

SickCert

shltter wrote:

If you have more than 45 minutes it is at the discretion of the controller as long as you left the outer terminus on time. He can give you the O/T or he can tell you to take your full break.

If it is under the 45 minutes then it is at the discretion of the driver as to what he wants to do.

I have claimed many a late break on being 7/8 minutes down and agreed to come back on time.

spareman

shltter wrote:

If you have more than 45 minutes it is at the discretion of the controller as long as you left the outer terminus on time. He can give you the O/T or he can tell you to take your full break.

If it is under the 45 minutes then it is at the discretion of the driver as to what he wants to do.

So if you leave the outer terminus late but still have more than 45 mins break A driver can insist on taking his/her full break?

Mucco

Does EU law not require drivers to take a 45min break every 4.5 hours? It did when I used to drive minibuses abroad.

M

John R

Mucco wrote:

Does EU law not require drivers to take a 45min break every 4.5 hours? It did when I used to drive minibuses abroad.

M

Yes, that is the EU and Irish law on driver hours.

TBH driver hours is something that is considered flexible by CIE managers when they are allowed. It is really left up to the drivers to insist on it and considering they are the ones who are primarily responsible in the event of an incident it is in their own interest to stand up to their management.

I will refer back to the first post in the thread, how many hours without a break is rostered on there?

The 75 is a nightmare route all day, as has been previously said that timetable was optomistic 10 years ago, now it is just a complete joke.


In the industry in general outside CIE there is almost no consideration at all given to the notion of driving time regulation. I can name a number of well-known operations that regularly have drivers working 12 hours or more without any proper breaks.

like most areas of business in Ireland, safety regulations are flouted up until some disaster occours and then a few unfortunates get hung out to dry whilst the rest of the industry is desperately trying to cover their arses.

It is probably a matter of time before something happens that will force the regulations to be taken seriously, mind you the trucking sector has not cleaned up it's act despite a cataloguge of incidents over the years.

corktina

i believe that similar abuses of time keeping are rife in the trucking industry too...indeed I have been told there are many drivers who have no other address other than their lorry cabs which is totally illegal as rest periods must be taken at their home NOT in the vehicle. I drove a tacho fitted vehicle for 18 months and was not asked to show my disc once in that time.....