Shell to Sea versus the Gardaí

Akrasia

Several people have been injured following a baton charge by the gardai trying to remove a sit down protest from a public road in Mayo. At least one protester is in hospital receiving treatment for injuries to his back and neck
Of course, the media is reporting the event as 'more violent scenes' but the violence originated entirely from the 'guardians of the peace' working on behalf of Shell on an international day of protest marking the 11th anniversary of Shell's execution of 9 environmental activists in Nigeria.

ednwireland

yeh right pushing a car at the garda is a "peacful protest" give me a break

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Several people have been injured following a baton charge by the gardai trying to remove a sit down protest from a public road in Mayo. At least one protester is in hospital receiving treatment for injuries to his back and neck.

High time they started wading in. Though it's hardly the stuff of Kent State. Still, when will these people realise that there are things such as the rule of law, and blocking traffic is outside it?

Akrasia

it's easy to abide by the law when you have the law makers in your back pocket.

Those 9 environmental activists who were hanged in nigeria deserved what they got too. how dare they confront the might of the corporation

lostexpectation

Is mcdowell actually going to hurt his cause by confusing his baseless sinnfeinn and rossport conspiracy.

landser

Akrasia wrote:

it's easy to abide by the law when you have the law makers in your back pocket.

Those 9 environmental activists who were hanged in nigeria deserved what they got too. how dare they confront the might of the corporation

Are you seriously comparing the hanging of protestors in Nigeria, to baton charging a group of prtestors who had earlier pushed a car at a line of Gardai, and who were warned several times to disperse or the Gardai would implement measures under the Public Order Act.

Your post is nothing more than hyperbolic, sensationalism!:mad:

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Those 9 environmental activists who were hanged in nigeria deserved what they got too. how dare they confront the might of the corporation

Of course. Because I believe in the rule of law in Ireland, it must mean I love watching people being executed abroad. You came to a perfectly logical and rational conclusion there. And all those people who give out when taxi drivers block traffic in Dublin protests? Rabid right wingers foaming at the mouth for a good ol' hanging.

kippy

I doubt this thread was set up to discuss anything political by the looks of it.
Kippy

bonkey

Akrasia wrote:

it's easy to abide by the law when you have the law makers in your back pocket.

Only if the lawmakers are changing the laws to allow you do something that was previously illegal.

Tell me - when were the laws changed to make this type of police action legal, where previously it was illegal?

bonkey

kippy wrote:

I doubt this thread was set up to discuss anything political by the looks of it.

Give it time.

I'm sure all the FIGHT DA POWAH types are out protesting against Shell and the Gardai at the moment. Once they're done with that, they'll no doubt show up here, side with Akrasia, and condemn the rest of us as sheeple who let THE MAN walk all over us.

Or something like that.

Akrasia

landser wrote:

Are you seriously comparing the hanging of protestors in Nigeria, to baton charging a group of prtestors who had earlier pushed a car at a line of Gardai, and who were warned several times to disperse or the Gardai would implement measures under the Public Order Act.

Your post is nothing more than hyperbolic, sensationalism!:mad:

well, I'm sure the men in Nigeria were warned to stop their protests too.

One protester was rushed to hospital with serious injuries after he was thrown into a 6 foot deep ditch. This wasn't an accident, this is what the Gardai have been doing for the last month. There are reports from a secondary protest at a quarry in banghor that the police are using extreme violence against protesters and this is not being picked up by the media because they are concentrated in bellanaboy

Even if a baton charge is not comparable to executions, the principles are exactly the same. State police taking the side of worlds biggest corporation and defending them with violence against the local population.

Akrasia

bonkey wrote:

Only if the lawmakers are changing the laws to allow you do something that was previously illegal.

Tell me - when were the laws changed to make this type of police action legal, where previously it was illegal?

I would suggest that it is illegal, and when the video footage is released, there will be another mayday style scandal.

The entire shell project is extremely dodgy, corrupt minister giving billions of punts of natural resources away to oil company, planning procedures not followed, the first ever CPOs used to take local land and forcibly give it to a private corporation, 5 men imprisoned for a months because they tried to prevent corporation from going through their own private land........

They are lucky the Minister is a soft touch though.

Olivia Mitchell argued that we should have sent in the army to clear the streets when a taxi protest disrupted traffic in Dublin a few months back.

sovtek

Deleted User wrote:

High time they started wading in. Though it's hardly the stuff of Kent State. Still, when will these people realise that there are things such as the rule of law, and blocking traffic is outside it?

Breaking the law in order to enforce it isn't the "rule of law" now is it?

r3nu4l

Akrasia your original post makes it obvious that you have an agenda and are completely biased and for that you cannot be taken seriously.

I couldn't give a toss about the Shell/Corrib situation and am completely unbiased but can tell you that some of the protestors there are known to me (not friends as such) and are generally nice people but I know for a fact that they are there to cause trouble for their own agendas.

It's always the same with these demos, there is a legitimate concern which is hijacked by certain people for their own ends. Pushing the car/van at Garda lines was an offence, an unlawful act of intent and therefore wrong.

Challenge for you: Back up your mouthing!
You have mentioned a 'corrupt Minister', are you prepared to name said minister and back this up with proof of convivtion for corruption?

You mentioned that the man was 'thrown into a 6 foot deep ditch'. Can you prove this, some video fotage would be nice? Who threw him in...Gardaí or fellow protestors? Back up your statement.

Until you can prove these assertations anything else you say is worthless and unbelievable.

Jip

From RTENews (or are they unreliable because they're in the pocket of big business too ?)

At one point gardaí used their batons to break the windscreen and side window of a van in which a leading campaigner, schoolteacher Maura Harrington, was being pushed through the cordon

Poor innocent Maura, just sitting in her van and was attacked for no good reason. BTW, I thought schools were back off midterm or is this poor unfortunate still off "sick" and the rest of us suckers are paying for her.

Where's Cartman when you need them, goddamn hippies.

mountainyman

r3nu4l wrote:

Challenge for you: Back up your mouthing!
You have mentioned a 'corrupt Minister', are you prepared to name said minister and back this up with proof of convivtion for corruption?.

Ray Burke issued the initial license to Enterprise Oil, this license was purchased by Shell.
Are you denying that Burke was corrupt.

MM

mountainyman

r3nu4l wrote:

I couldn't give a toss about the Shell/Corrib situation and am completely unbiased ...

That doesn't make you unbiased it just makes you complacent. Or can't you tell the difference?
MM

Ronan|Raven

About time, fair play to the Gardai.

redspider

I am SHOCKED that this protest has got to the stage of a 'baton' charge. True, it may be wrong for people to block the traffic, but they are protesting in the only way that they can and is open to them as mediation and Government decisions have not allayed their issues nor solved the problem to date for both sides.

Batoning is wrong and is more than a bad PR move. This will awaken many that have been watching this issue from the sidelines and who will now take an opinion on the matter. I have yet to see a solid debate from both sides on the issue, a Question and Answers with both sides attending. People have already gone to prison for this quagmire. Many on here are talking about hippies, etc, but it is clear that these people have far better things to be doing than be involved in a meanigless protest, so for these people it is certainly not a casue for rebellion sake.

Many groups have resorted to peaceful blocking protest as a way to get their view heard and to prevent something from being carried out. Even the Gardai have taken the illegal steps themselves and had a blue flue protest.

Clearly, the Gardai are under pressure and have lost their cool and relationship on the ground. Relationship between the protestors and the Gardai have been strained from the start.

This is now going to be a hotter issue, and I would ask one and all, especially politicians, to try and get to grips with the problem and set-up a process so that both sides can solve their differences, if they indeed are solvable.

Redspider

Jip

Everyone harks on about Shell exploiting Irelands natural resources. What most people seem to forget, or largely ignore, is the fact the the government didn't come along and say to Shell "hey, here you go, there's a gas field off the cost of Mayo, it's all yours for a small sum.".

The likes of Shell and other such companies can spend millions and years in trying to find gas and oil without success and are taking a risk in their investments. The state probably makes more money than the exploration companies in a large amount of exploration licences handed out.

gandalf

The biggest disgrace about this whole situation is the Exchequer is not getting a big tax take thanks to the bargain basement deal Rambo (Ray Burke of FF for the Young ones, he's up a tree in North Dublin these days!) did with Shell in the first place.

All these protests are nothing but an example of NIMBYism and then the anti-everything brigade. As for the Gardai they are being put in a difficult position and I can see why they are being heavy handed.

Jip

Gandalf, read one post above yours.

Listening to the News at 1, the protestors were asked to clear the road 3 times which they refused, there were given plenty of chances and didn't take it. Various spokes people for the protestors insisted they received no warnings despite it being obvious on the audio they were, I wonder what other spin they can add to thnigs.

r3nu4l

mountainyman wrote:

That doesn't make you unbiased it just makes you complacent. Or can't you tell the difference?
MM

MM, you have severely misinterpreted my post I'll try to put it more simply for you using your own words.

I am both complacent and unbiased.

Do you think it's not possible to be both? Is that beyond your simple level of comprehension?


As for Ray Burke (he has been convicted of filing false tax returns which is corrupt I agree!), was the issue of the initial license ever proven to be invalid? I suppose that's the real point I was trying to make. Thanks for [strike]playing into my hands[/strike] helping me get there, you're too kind.

gandalf

Jip wrote:

Everyone harks on about Shell exploiting Irelands natural resources. What most people seem to forget, or largely ignore, is the fact the the government didn't come along and say to Shell "hey, here you go, there's a gas field off the cost of Mayo, it's all yours for a small sum.".

The likes of Shell and other such companies can spend millions and years in trying to find gas and oil without success and are taking a risk in their investments. The state probably makes more money than the exploration companies in a large amount of exploration licences handed out.

Well thats the risk of investment. However as a country we should be getting more from successful fields as well. They are removing a resource from our territory therefore we should get a "cut" of the benefits of that.

The fact is FF and Ray Burke dropped their collective trousers and bent over....

lostexpectation

look at this on that indymedia site Judge rules against gardai for stealing protestors car.

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/79574&comment_limit=0&condense_comments=false#comment175300

if you don't believe the shelltosea lot do not believe the judge when he says the main gardai there acted above the law

Jip

And what relevance has that got to do with what happened today ?

is_that_so

The Shell to Sea campaign has exhibited the type of petulant intransigence that a five year old would show. There is no compromise. It goes to sea or it doesn't happen. Hard to negotiate when that is the fixed position. As for protest yes they should be allowed but at the same time there are people who want to go to work. But protests have been far from peaceful and it was always going to come to this. My own annoyance with it is the carpetbaggers who show up from all over to "support" the Shell to Sea group.

Akrasia

is_that_so wrote:

The Shell to Sea campaign has exhibited the type of petulant intransigence that a five year old would show. There is no compromise. It goes to sea or it doesn't happen. Hard to negotiate when that is the fixed position. As for protest yes they should be allowed but at the same time there are people who want to go to work. But protests have been far from peaceful and it was always going to come to this. My own annoyance with it is the carpetbaggers who show up from all over to "support" the Shell to Sea group.

Um, shell are intransigent too, "It goes on land... and it's going to happen no matter what anyone else says"

bonkey

Akrasia wrote:

I would suggest that it is illegal, and when the video footage is released, there will be another mayday style scandal.

So I take it you witnessed the events in person then?

Or are you deciding in advance what the outcome will be based on evidence that you haven't seen?

Isn't it a somewhat hypocritical argument to complain about corruption whilst simultaneously not holding your own beliefs to a reasonable burden of proof?

redspider wrote:

True, it may be wrong for people to block the traffic, but they are protesting in the only way that they can

Last time I checked, it was possible to protest at teh side of the road so that motorists could see you, see what you're protesting about, and not be blocked.

This would suggest to me that it is most certainly not the only way that they can protest. They want to cause disruption to highlight their case. The basic complaint seems to be that they should be allowed to do this, but its wrong for them to be the ones subjected to disruption.

And hey...if you want to take that as a sweeping generalisation, we have Akrasia saying that defending corporations from the public is in principle the same as what happened to those 9 people in Nigeria. You'll notice that at no point in the clarification did Akrasia mention that the question of whether or not the public and/or corporation is or is not acting acceptably, but rather took the principle to be that police defending corporations from citizens is fundamentally wrong and in principle the same as having those citizens executed.

ixtlan

I will be very interested in watching any footage available of this incident.

I can't at the moment comment on the conduct of the gardai. However nobody seems to be disputing the fact that a car was pushed at a garda cordon. If true this is very serious escalation.

It always seems to be the case that people seek to justify a wrongdoing by stating what the other side is doing. This was always Sinn Fein's response to IRA atrocities... look what the army/police have done. The reality is that it's possible for both sides to be wrong.

The gardai have to maintain the rule of law. They also have to maintain their discipline.

For their part the protestors have the right to protest, and if they feel strongly enough let them break the law, and face the courts. If public opinion swings massively in their favour maybe the law will be changed. However the guards have to follow the law.

While a protest is peaceful, I can consider supporting it. By all means sit down, allow yourself to be dragged away and arrested. Do not resist arrest. Once people start pushing cars at guards however, regardless of anything the guards did, those protesters have lost any chance of me supporting them, and I suspect any chance of getting national public opinion on their side.

What I really want is lots and lots of cameras, on the guards side and the protesters side. People may be less inclined to scream obsenities when their rantings are broadcast on TV or the internet.

Ix.

Vainglory

ixtlan wrote:

I will be very interested in watching any footage available of this incident.

I can't at the moment comment on the conduct of the gardai. However nobody seems to be disputing the fact that a car was pushed at a garda cordon. If true this is very serious escalation.

It always seems to be the case that people seek to justify a wrongdoing by stating what the other side is doing. This was always Sinn Fein's response to IRA atrocities... look what the army/police have done. The reality is that it's possible for both sides to be wrong.

The gardai have to maintain the rule of law. They also have to maintain their discipline.

For their part the protestors have the right to protest, and if they feel strongly enough let them break the law, and face the courts. If public opinion swings massively in their favour maybe the law will be changed. However the guards have to follow the law.

While a protest is peaceful, I can consider supporting it. By all means sit down, allow yourself to be dragged away and arrested. Do not resist arrest. Once people start pushing cars at guards however, regardless of anything the guards did, those protesters have lost any chance of me supporting them, and I suspect any chance of getting national public opinion on their side.

What I really want is lots and lots of cameras, on the guards side and the protesters side. People may be less inclined to scream obsenities when their rantings are broadcast on TV or the internet.

Ix.

So shouldn't they have been arrested then, rather than batoned and thrown into ditches?

mountainyman

r3nu4l wrote:

I am both complacent and unbiased.

Do you think it's not possible to be both? Is that beyond your simple level of comprehension?

I don't accept that you are unbiased and in this matter I do not accept that it is possible to be both.
To be complacent about the police batoning protestors off the road implies a personality that is unquestioning of authority and highly conformist.
To such a personality the protestors must be wrong if only because they are questioning authority.

r3nu4l wrote:

As for Ray Burke (he has been convicted of filing false tax returns which is corrupt I agree!), was the issue of the initial license ever proven to be invalid? I suppose that's the real point I was trying to make. Thanks for [strike]playing into my hands[/strike] helping me get there, you're too kind.

If a group of corrupt politicians refuse to enact normal legal standards for the prosecution of political corruption that does not mean that corruption does not take place.

Ray Burke was corrupt. The Flood Tribunal reported in 1992 that he had received corrupt payments. All of his actions which rebound to the benefit of big business must now be revisited.
Certain sorts of people will always assume that authority is honest and benevolent, as Burke has not been proven guilty in a court of law (in other words a verdict issued by a higher authority) they are unwilling to countenance the reality that he was pervasively corrupt.

MM

mountainyman

Jip wrote:

Everyone harks on about Shell exploiting Irelands natural resources. What most people seem to forget, or largely ignore, is the fact the the government didn't come along and say to Shell "hey, here you go, there's a gas field off the cost of Mayo, it's all yours for a small sum.".

The likes of Shell and other such companies can spend millions and years in trying to find gas and oil without success and are taking a risk in their investments. The state probably makes more money than the exploration companies in a large amount of exploration licences handed out.

Yeah but if all we are getting out of it is 30 jobs (or whatever) than why not leave it in the sea. The scots have a pipeline into the north and we can just buy it from them. We aren't going to get any special deals from Shell.

MM

r3nu4l

mountainyman wrote:

I don't accept that you are unbiased and in this matter I do not accept that it is possible to be both...

...MM

MM, that's cool, I'm not asking you to accept it, your entitled to your views etc. but to think you know what's going on in my head shows a sense of massively inflated ego and delusions of grandeur.

As it happens, I'm not a conformist or unquestioning of authority, I wasn't there and didn't see what happened and unlike the OP I'm not going to jump to conslusions...either way! If you don't like that, that's your tough luck, you can rant and rave all you like, Let me spell it out for you...I...don't...care! I hope that clears things up for you.

mountainyman

r3nu4l wrote:

MM,...I...don't...care! I hope that clears things up for you.

Then why engage in this discussion.

MM

Vegeta

mountainyman wrote:

Then why engage in this discussion.

MM

well i think he has highlighted the very valid point that a lot of people are just shooting their mouth off with no evidence or clue what truly happened this morning.

newby.204

Ill lay it out very simple for you tree huggin hippies(get a haircut:D ), if you break the law and test the patience of people with batons when they nicely asked you to FUkc off home to your solar panneled houses with your compost heap out the back, then your playing with fire.

On a more serious point the gardai have more important things to be worrying about these days, you know those gang wars and all, so dealing with you lot a little "heavy handedly", so they can get on dealing with real issues like 5 year olds gettin shot in the middle of a housing estate and tiger kidnappings on postal worker, well its just fine with me.

r3nu4l

mountainyman wrote:

Then why engage in this discussion.

MM

My issue and the reason for my entering the discussion was to highlight the clear but unstated bias of the OP's post.

The poster stated that a protestor was 'thrown' into a ditch and implied (thus allowing the inferrence) that it was the Gardaí who did this...without citing a source.

That's the issue I have, lots of wild statements with no credible sources or backup. Hence my entering the discussion. I couldn't care less if it's a discussion on the price of cabbages but I do care when unfounded and unproven accusations are made. That's all

sovtek

Jip wrote:

From RTENews (or are they unreliable because they're in the pocket of big business too ?)


Poor innocent Maura, just sitting in her van and was attacked for no good reason. BTW, I thought schools were back off midterm or is this poor unfortunate still off "sick" and the rest of us suckers are paying for her.

Where's Cartman when you need them, goddamn hippies.

So teachers aren't allowed to participate in political activism? I just heard Mcdowell smearing teachers on the radio....sounds familiar.

ixtlan

Vainglory wrote:

So shouldn't they have been arrested then, rather than batoned and thrown into ditches?

Perhaps. I can't fairly comment on the garda conduct, as I have not seen it. Certainly if the protesters were sitting down, or standing up but not moving then yes, they should have been dragged away quietly and possibly arrested.

However if they were pushing forward against a cordon, and the guards have to follow the rule of law and not let them get through, then things get somewhat grey. A certain amount of force may be justifiable. Which is why I would like to have lots and lots of cameras in place to keep both sides in check.

I am sort of commenting blindly here. The gardai may have done wrong. They may have been heavy-handed. And if so they should face the law themselves. However it's clear that the protestors did wrong, and they should face the law. One does not have to choose one side. Both may be wrong.

Ix.

r3nu4l

sovtek wrote:

So teachers aren't allowed to participate in political activism? I just heard Mcdowell smearing teachers on the radio....sounds familiar.

If she has taken holiday time or unpaid leave to do so then that's okay by me

What was McD smearing them with? Chocolate, butter...oil? geddit? I'll get my coat...

sovtek

ixtlan wrote:

I can't at the moment comment on the conduct of the gardai. However nobody seems to be disputing the fact that a car was pushed at a garda cordon. If true this is very serious escalation.

Yes it's a serious allegation and had it happened then the people involved should be arrested. However it's also likely that pushing a car at Guarda was in self defense or it was provocatuers. Both situations have occured many times in the past few years.
It still doesn't let the police off the hook if they used violence against peaceful protestors.

sovtek

bonkey wrote:

This would suggest to me that it is most certainly not the only way that they can protest. They want to cause disruption to highlight their case. The basic complaint seems to be that they should be allowed to do this, but its wrong for them to be the ones subjected to disruption.

Beating someone and throwing them in a ditch is not merely "disruption". It's also illegal.

Turner

It is very unfair that uniformed gardai are placed at the site every morning in what is now turning into riotous behaviour. They have very little protection against what is a very violent and hostile crowd.

It is high time that the public order unit that was seen at the Love Ulster parade and the George Bush visit are deployed before more members of the Gardai get injured enforcing the rule of law.

sovtek wrote:

It still doesn't let the police off the hook if they used violence against peaceful protestors.

The Gardai are allowed use force, it is not illegal for them to do so.

sovtek

r3nu4l wrote:

If she has taken holiday time or unpaid leave to do so then that's okay by me

What was McD smearing them with? Chocolate, butter...oil? geddit? I'll get my coat...

That's her business...and it's a testimony to McDowells weak stance on this subject.

sovtek

Chief--- wrote:

It is very unfair that uniformed gardai are placed at the site every morning in what is now turning into riotous behaviour. They have very little protection against what is a very violent and hostile crowd.

It is high time that the public order unit that was seen at the Love Ulster parade and the George Bush visit are deployed before more members of the Gardai get injured enforcing the rule of law.



The Gardai are allowed use force, it is not illegal for them to do so.

Enforcing the law does not involve breaking the law. It is illegal to use force against someone that is not posing a threat.

Akrasia

Chief--- wrote:

It is very unfair that uniformed gardai are placed at the site every morning in what is now turning into riotous behaviour. They have very little protection against what is a very violent and hostile crowd.

well that's very orwelian of you. The police have batons, protesters have their voice. Police have a bus full of riot police, protesters don't. Police have the power of arrest, Protesters have the likelyhood of being arrested

The police are the ones assaulting the protesters, not the other way around.

It is high time that the public order unit that was seen at the Love Ulster parade and the George Bush visit are deployed before more members of the Gardai get injured enforcing the rule of law.

and how many gardai have been injured so far?

The Gardai are allowed use force, it is not illegal for them to do so.

the gardai are allowed to use reasonable force as a last resort.

mike65

Lunchtime news report http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/2190738.smil

"in the most serious worsening..." The cops should arrest the newsreader for that syntax.

Slightly suprised (though maybe I should'nt be) that the cops did'nt have shields, they could have formed a wall to push the prostesters back hence lessening the need for the batton.

Mike.

verbatim

sovtek wrote:

Beating someone and throwing them in a ditch is not merely "disruption". It's also illegal.

Theres nothing illegal about the gardai trying to uphold the rule of law. I used to have sympathy for the Rossport campaign, but that ended when the extreme left moved in and took over. The same small group of people seem to be involved in every anti-establishment protest from Shannon airport to anti-globalisation etc...

And pushing a car/van at gardai is a very serious and violent escalation to the protest. I hope the protesters involved are sent to prison for a very long time.

r3nu4l

sovtek wrote:

That's her business...and it's a testimony to McDowells weak stance on this subject.

If she has taken paid time off work that is not either holiday or sick leave then it is the business of the children and parents of children at the school where she teaches and the business of the school authorities and taxpayer. So it's not just her business I'm afraid.