Here they come!

Steyr

TWO new helicopters arriving in Baldonnel this month will boost Ireland's anti-terrorist Special Forces.

For the first time the highly trained secretive unit, the Army Ranger Wing, will have modern helicopters available to airlift them to any terrorist incident in the country.

The two Anglo-Italian helicopters will fly in from Italy, where Irish Air Corps crews have been training since July, as the first part of a €49m order for four utility helicopters signed by Defence Minister Willie O'Dea.

The high tech twin engined Agusta Westland AW139 helicopters, the first to be delivered to any military force worldwide, will have a variety of roles.

But training and operations with the elite Rangers will be a key priority.

Up to now they have had to rely on small Alouette 3 helicopters, some of them in service for four decades, for limited troop transport. The new AW-139 fleet, which will be able to carry 32 Rangers in one lift, will also be the first armed helicopters to serve with the Air Corps.

Each helicopter has a range of nearly 300 miles.

To fit in with the Special Forces role, the new helicopters will also have abseiling and fast roping systems allowing Rangers to quickly drop onto high-rise buildings, boats, trains, or buses for an assault. The aircraft will also have night-vision capability.

The first two helicopters are to fly in to the Air Corps base on November 21 with the remaining two AW-139s due in 2007.

Manic Moran

Steyr wrote:

The high tech twin engined Agusta Westland AW139 helicopters, the first to be delivered to any military force worldwide, will have a variety of roles.

I wonder if there's a reason for that...

NTM

Morpheus

Yes there is, we were the first to buy them.

Dub13

Some photos of the AW139.

Morpheus

Heres a look at a militarized model of the AB139.

http://helicopt.hp.infoseek.co.jp/ab139mil.jpg

The irish version will be capable of deploying 2 side pintle mounted GPMGs. Heres a picture of one of the first two AB139's in italy in its final olive green color.

http://www.agustawestland.com/dinimg/grande%20Inflight_05.JPG

Incidentally the dayglow orange window trim will not be used when these aircraft go operational here.

Courtesy of Augusta Westland

http://www.agustawestland.com

Steyr

The Dayglo Orange was removed ages ago shortly after the promo pics were taken some months ago.

Manic Moran

Morph&#233 wrote: »

Yes there is, we were the first to buy them.

And why would that be? What is everyone else in the world buying, and why aren't they buying 139s?

NTM

Heraldoffreeent

"The new AW-139 fleet, which will be able to carry 32 Rangers in one lift, will also be the first armed helicopters to serve with the Air Corps"

Slightly misleading I think, as the DOD have not accquired the military spec(armour etc) the only thing that makes them mil is the olive green paint!

Steyr

Armor can be placed onto it, they are on about the mounted GPMG's

komsomol

Looks alot like our dauphins

Morpheus

What Steyr said... amred and armoured are two different words.

And why would that be? What is everyone else in the world buying, and why aren't they buying 139s?

There was a competition, the DOD put out a tender, the AW139 fulfilled all requirements and came in at the right price. Check the Augusta website, other countries have now ordered similiar versions of this helicopter.

Someone ALWAYS has to be the first customer, this time its us.

Manic Moran

You will note that the other government purchasors, which I see are Nigeria, UAE, Japan, Australia and Estonia are buying them for SAR and VIP roles, not military lift. I think Ireland so far is the only country that will be painting them green and putting machineguns on them. There's no issue with being the first government purchasor of a chopper: I think the S-92s would have been a very good buy, had the deal not been torpedoed, but when you're the only one of several using it for a specific role, it does start begging questions.

NTM

Morpheus

we dont need the up armoured full military spec versions, the only deployment these choppers will see is locally internally on this island, not many criminals have 12.7mm anti aircraft guns or SAMs.

2 gpmgs is enough deterrent as is.

They will provide decent training for troops to serve overseas and will increase capabilities for a number of ranger wing units to get somewhere in ireland in a hurry.

I understand where your coming from and wouldve preferred more forward thinking on the DODs behalf including rocket pods, armour protection, ECMs etc, but trust me, having flown in the bathtub that is an allouette and jumped out of it, i cant wait to see these in operation. it takes 3 flights by one allouette to move the same number of troops as 1 AW139 and thats WITHOUT basic backpack (webbing)

aslongasitsloud

not really, Ireland has some very mixed military roles for our comparitively small military presence worldwide.

And as for buying first, it was the same with the new naval ships. And they've proven themselves.

Dub13

Morph&#233 wrote: »

we dont need the up armoured full military spec versions, the only deployment these choppers will see is locally internally on this island, not many criminals have 12.7mm anti aircraft guns or SAMs.

The way Limerick is going it will not be long before we need the full military spec version.

Morpheus

lol but we'd be under-armed in anything less than an apache!

The thing

Morph&#233 wrote: »

we dont need the up armoured full military spec versions, the only deployment these choppers will see is locally internally on this island, not many criminals have 12.7mm anti aircraft guns or SAMs.

2 gpmgs is enough deterrent as is.

They will provide decent training for troops to serve overseas and will increase capabilities for a number of ranger wing units to get somewhere in ireland in a hurry.

I understand where your coming from and wouldve preferred more forward thinking on the DODs behalf including rocket pods, armour protection, ECMs etc, but trust me, having flown in the bathtub that is an allouette and jumped out of it, i cant wait to see these in operation. it takes 3 flights by one allouette to move the same number of troops as 1 AW139 and thats WITHOUT basic backpack (webbing)

So you think 4 helicopters is enough to train an entire Army? Not to mention Air Corp and Naval service members and members of the Reserve Defence Forces. It's a bloody farce, a joke to say the least. Even if the option to buy 6 was used, it is still not enough. The Alluette's only have 5 more years of service if even that. That's the reality that we are faced with here.

the_syco

Manic Moran wrote:

I wonder if there's a reason for that...

NTM

If you look at the guns the PDF use now... and the fact that we got them before other countries...

=-=

Someone mentioned the army. I see "anti-terrorist Special Forces". There's a difference in numbers. Also, there's a difference in role's. One has a mainly peace-keeping role, the other has an anti-terrorist role. And yeah, the terrorists would be afraid of a chopper with guns. Thats the whole point. Otherwise they could just shoot at the chopper.

cork1

i think it was styer said the rangers would be a lot more capable with these helos but knowing the irish the helos wil be in cork,the terrorists in dublin and the rangers in galway.

The thing

These helicopters won't be going near any terrorists, because the simple fact is, there isn't a credible terrorist threat in this country to deploy them against. The only real role is for the training of our troops for overseas missions and assigned tasks at home and the training of members of the Army Ranger Wing. However 4 helicopters is too little to spread around the whole Defence Forces. I highly doubt that all 4 will be flying on a constant basis due to maintaince and other assigned tasks other than Army Co-op. It's a sad state of affairs that the Air corps didn't try and push the order out for bigger helicopters. At present the Air Corps don't fly helicopters at night because they aren't trained to do so. We still have an Air farce rather than an Air Corps.

Manic Moran

the_syco wrote:

If you look at the guns the PDF use now... and the fact that we got them before other countries...

Name one. I am willing to entertain also field artillery, air defense, and vehicle-mounted.

NTM

Heraldoffreeent

Yes I know they are capable of being armed, but without armour they are pretty useless in an armed role, therefore sticking a couple of MGs out the window is about as usefull as an ashtray on a motorbike.

Surely the DOD would have factored in using them in support of UN missions?
Is it not time we stopped hitching lifts with other nations?

Morpheus

They are not for deploying with the UN, they are for training. That involves familiarising troops with proper modern helo ops including insertion into possible hot landing zones which requires armament, believe me 2 gpmgs are more than enough firepower to keep anyones head down.

There are 4, of course thats not enough, they should get the other two optional extras, will they? probably not. 4 will never fly at same time, at least one will always be in maintenance.

We are not trying to equip an air mobile division, we are trying to get active troops heading overseas with the right training done BEFORE deployment.

This is usually (for ireland) company level numbers of infantry of <200 at any one time, they can be trained up on heli load and unload in differing circumstances, interoperating with helo casevac, fire support, resupply, managing and securing and operating a landing area, all this and more with modern new helos and all the operational changes that come with them, INCLUDING Night ops. Rangers will be trained up here too and now can augment their availability and ability to do mission types inindiginous to Ireland.

4 is enough for THIS role, but its truly a far cry from what the aircorps needs in order to have an air mobile wing, a fire support wing, a logistic lift wing, were talking in the order of oh, i dont know, maybe 60 - 80 vehicles a good proportion of which would be medium - heavy lift as in ch53 stallion http://www.combatindex.com/hardware/images/air/ch53/ch-53e_76.jpg

Which again has far wider implications i.e. that Baldonnel would need greater infrastructure, we'd need a much much bigger animal than the current aircorps, in orders of magnitude, its not just numbers of aircraft, its also floorspace and boots on the ground and all sundry equipment and vehicles and spares required to support these which also require more maintenance and spares and drivers and so on.

We may not be able to deploy the machines but we WILL possibly be able to deploy the loadmasters, doorgunners, maybe even with cross platform training the engineers and pilots in conjunction with other countries as our guys will be as well trained as theirs.

Anyway, thats just my 2c.

Steyr

The thing wrote:

At present the Air Corps don't fly helicopters at night because they aren't trained to do so.

Simply put....Wrong. The Dauphin Pilots were/are night trained and so are the fixed wing guys, GASU is operated and flown by the Air Corps on behalf of the Gardai and Night Ops is very much in need as is the Casa's etc etc. Same goes for the EC135's and there is still 1 Dauphin being Operated same goes for the PC9's oh and for anybody interested the Alouette 3's are being WFU as we speak.

testicle

The thing wrote:

At present the Air Corps don't fly helicopters at night because they aren't trained to do so. We still have an Air farce rather than an Air Corps.

If you have ever been near Limerick, or indeed, parts of Dublin at night, you will see and hear a Garda Helicopter, which is flown by the Air Corps. I think your theory has been blown out of the water there.

GerryRyan

The thing wrote:

So you think 4 helicopters is enough to train an entire Army? Not to mention Air Corp and Naval service members and members of the Reserve Defence Forces.

:eek:

Let's be realistic here. When would the RDF get a look in at these helicopters (or any for that matter)? Feel free to correct me thought.

Manic Moran

In fairness, they don't need to train an entire army, just those bits of it likely to ever see themselves in a helicopter. Troops deploying to the UN, being the priority.

Of course, as a training exercise, flying a company around is going to be a bit tricky with only four choppers.

NTM

Steyr

ThatGuy wrote:

:eek:

Let's be realistic here. When would the RDF get a look in at these helicopters (or any for that matter)? Feel free to correct me thought.

RDF troops are extremely active in the Heli Insertion/Extraction roles when on Tactics, more or less every weekend some RDF Unit is on Manouveres and Alouette3's have always been used, just pick up a copy of An Cosantoir to see for yourself, RDF Units regularily go to Baldonnel ( EIME ) for Training on how to enter/exit Helicopters and after the ground Training get brought up and do it unarmed at first then try it with the gear (Steyr,ammo,rations,bergens etc) on a Tactical exercise.

I did it three times already, loved every second of it!:D

Morpheus

ThatGuy wrote:

:eek:

Let's be realistic here. When would the RDF get a look in at these helicopters (or any for that matter)? Feel free to correct me thought.

Ive already done this 3 times too, proper tactical insertions via helicopter and will have to be trained up to AW139 standard as well, and in case you havent copped on yet, im in the RDF.

What is it with people NOT realising that RDF must be trained to do the same things as PDF otherwise we can never interoperate. Maybe not to the same LEVEL, granted, but we dont DO it every day, personally speaking my unit is pretty well trained and PDF cadre sgts having trained us for a week solid this year, told us that we werent far off an operational unit in weapon skills, tactics and fieldcraft etc.

"Head up, shoulders back, LOOKUPYEROWNHEIGHT!!!! Chest out, grip the seams of your trousers between your thumb and index finger, thats it"

Now ThatGuy, that is how you stand corrected!!! :rolleyes:

Steyr

Morph&#233 wrote: »

Now ThatGuy, that is how you stand corrected!!!

Hey Morph im

Morpheus

im 65th ACoy

cushtac

There's an option on two more, so if that's exercised there'll be 6. People should also remember that the AIII's were not bought all at the same time, so there's every chance more of these, or the bigger AW-149, could be bought in the future.

For the first time since the Puma the AC's going to have a decent heli in the army co-op role. The crews seem eager to train & operate in that role too. It's a step in the right direction & I'm going to be optimistic about it.

Mad Finn

Manic Moran wrote:

And why would that be? What is everyone else in the world buying, and why aren't they buying 139s?

NTM

I may be wrong about this but I believe we are not allowed to buy American made weaponry by the Americans themselves because we are not an ally. We could go to Nevada with a fat wad of cash. Buy what we want at a good ol' boy store and try and smuggle it out of the country.

But officially, only states prepared to do the Americans' bidding and go kill a few towelheads for the sake of democracy may purchase American made weaponry. Unless of course you are a terrorist group in which case it's open season. The IRA has, or had assuming it has decommissioned its guns, more American made weaponry than the army of the Sovereign Irish state.


That's the theory.

Steyr

Mad Finn wrote:

I may be wrong about this but I believe we are not allowed to buy American made weaponry by the Americans themselves because we are not an ally.

Thats wrong as we bought the Javelin Missile System from them, Congress approved!:D

Mad Finn wrote:

The IRA has, or had assuming it has decommissioned its guns, more American made weaponry than the army of the Sovereign Irish state.

Alot of the confiscated IRA weaponry is used by the ARW for Training, seen them with their M16's, AK's the lot in Army Training vids.

GerryRyan

Ok, I've been put in my place, have no problem admitting it.
Sure what would I know, I'm just an artillery man.

the_syco

Manic Moran wrote:

Name one. I am willing to entertain also field artillery, air defense, and vehicle-mounted.

NTM

Pretty sure that we got the Steyr Aug A1 before the Brits, among others. Or so was drilled into me by the Sargent when I was in the FCA (about 7 years ago).

Manic Moran

Pretty sure that we got the Steyr Aug A1 before the Brits, among others

This is true. Ireland did indeed bring the Steyr AUG into service before the British. It also brought it into service before the Russians, Americans, Germans, Chinese, Finnish and everyone else that has chosen to use a rifle other than the AUG.

Ireland brought the AUG into service about ten years after it became the standard Austrian rifle.

NTM

The thing

testicle wrote:

If you have ever been near Limerick, or indeed, parts of Dublin at night, you will see and hear a Garda Helicopter, which is flown by the Air Corps. I think your theory has been blown out of the water there.

Ok then Bud, when have you ever seen troops being flown at night with the Air Corps?
Answer= never as they aren't trained to do so.

SAR helicopters, namely the Dauphin has been grounded in night ops after the accident in waterford.

Alluette's don't have any nightvision equipment or night navigation aids so cannot fly at night.

Irish troops aren't trained to operate with Air Corps at night because they don't have the ability.

The Garda ASU (Air support unit is a different service to the IAC's helicopter fleet, it is only crewed by AC pilots, they are not an Air Corps registered Aircraft)

Fixed wing aircraft are totally different to helicopters, I full well know that fixed wing IAC aircraft can fly at night but our helicopters cannot.

The thing

Mad Finn wrote:

I may be wrong about this but I believe we are not allowed to buy American made weaponry by the Americans themselves because we are not an ally. We could go to Nevada with a fat wad of cash. Buy what we want at a good ol' boy store and try and smuggle it out of the country.

But officially, only states prepared to do the Americans' bidding and go kill a few towelheads for the sake of democracy may purchase American made weaponry. Unless of course you are a terrorist group in which case it's open season. The IRA has, or had assuming it has decommissioned its guns, more American made weaponry than the army of the Sovereign Irish state.


That's the theory.

Wrong Ireland has several pieces of U.S. made kit,
The SINCGARS radio system and other sat and comms equipment,
The Javlin anti tank 84mm,

Ireland tends to source European made kit and for historical and economic reasons British made kit.

The thing

Manic Moran wrote:

This is true. Ireland did indeed bring the Steyr AUG into service before the British. It also brought it into service before the Russians, Americans, Germans, Chinese, Finnish and everyone else that has chosen to use a rifle other than the AUG.

Ireland brought the AUG into service about ten years after it became the standard Austrian rifle.

NTM

Ireland first bought the Steyr Aug A1 assualt rifle in 1988, Austria had only been using the rifle in an operational role since the early 1980's in about 1985. The rifle was developed in 1978 and we were the first export customer, which we got by swaping resourses in our butter mountain to Austria, who then we not an member of the EEC.

The thing

ThatGuy wrote:

:eek:

Let's be realistic here. When would the RDF get a look in at these helicopters (or any for that matter)? Feel free to correct me thought.

Reserve troops on the border, were trained in heli ops, as indeed they were in APC drills.
A lot of Reserve promotion courses are heli trained.
4 Helicopters are simply not enough, don't forget every PDF recruit is meant to be heli trained.

Manic Moran

The thing wrote:

Austria had only been using the rifle in an operational role since the early 1980's in about 1985.

You might want to check your dates on that. The AUG started development in the 1960s, and was adopted by the Austrian Army under the name "Stg.77 (Assault rifle, model of 1977)." Full scale production started in 1978, with fielding in the first units late that same year.

Ireland got its hands on it in 1986, if I recall, for a two-year period of trials and acceptance before being fielded in 1988..

NTM

Steyr

The thing wrote:

Ok then Bud, when have you ever seen troops being flown at night with the Air Corps?
Answer= never as they aren't trained to do so.

SAR helicopters, namely the Dauphin has been grounded in night ops after the accident in waterford.

Alluette's don't have any nightvision equipment or night navigation aids so cannot fly at night.

Irish troops aren't trained to operate with Air Corps at night because they don't have the ability.

The Garda ASU (Air support unit is a different service to the IAC's helicopter fleet, it is only crewed by AC pilots, they are not an Air Corps registered Aircraft)

Fixed wing aircraft are totally different to helicopters, I full well know that fixed wing IAC aircraft can fly at night but our helicopters cannot.

Yes on manouvers in the Curragh, my ancle was in the 1st BN and they did heli insertions via Dauphin,Puma YES in the Night. Night time Ops happens all the time in the Air Corps, Its required. The Dauphins were not grounded fully, they still did SAR until they were WFU by the Air Corps, 1 is still in Active service. The 2 new EC135's are doing alot of Night work with the ARW. Irish troops are Trained in Night ops with helis as its needed especially to allow them to integrate with other nations on overseas duty. The GASU Aircraft are registered as Irish Air Corps Aircraft have you even bothered to check their serial numbers to show that they are Air Corps Aircraft.

Serials are..
1. 256-EC135
2. 255-AS 355 N Squirrel
3. 254-Britten-Norman Defender 4000, BN 2T-4S


The Garda Air Support Unit (GASU) became operational in September 1997 when it took delivery of a fixed wing Pilatus Britten-Norman BN 2T-4S Defender 4000 aircraft and a Eurocopter AS355N Squirrel Helicopter.

In 2001 the GASU fleet was further increased by the addition of a second helicopter, an EC 135 T1.

The aircraft are on the Irish military register. The Air Corps provide pilots and maintain the aircraft on behalf of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and An Garda Síochána.

The aircraft were selected to meet the operational policing needs of An Garda Siochana. All aircraft are fitted with the latest police role equipment including state-of-the-art daylight and thermal image (infra red) cameras, mounted on a gyro-stabilised pod.

The Air Support Unit is based at Casement Aerodrome, Baldonnel, Co. Dublin and is a national resource under the operational control of Deputy Commissioner, Operations.

The GASU is a very busy unit within the Garda Síochána. In 2003 the Unit recorded 2,598 callouts resulting in 2,074 actual flying hours contributing in the arrest of 373 persons along with the recovery of 108 stolen vehicles.

Deployment of the GASU

Garda Aircraft may be deployed to incidents in the following circumstances,


An Immediate threat to life.
Incidents of crime, terrorism or of national importance.
Immediate threat of serious public disorder.
A task, which will lead to the immediate prevention or detection of crime.
To gather evidence and to prevent or detect crime or to avert a serious public disorder.
To gather information on and deal with incidents relating to Crime, Public disorder and traffic related matters.

taken from www.garda.ie

Manic Moran

The thing wrote:

The Garda ASU (Air support unit is a different service to the IAC's helicopter fleet, it is only crewed by AC pilots, they are not an Air Corps registered Aircraft)

Looking at my model of the EC-135, the number 256 slots neatly into the AC's numbering scheme, and it has no civilian registration marking.

Seems like an AC-owned aircraft to me.

NTM

Steyr

Manic Moran wrote:

Looking at my model of the EC-135, the number 256 slots neatly into the AC's numbering scheme, and it has no civilian registration marking.

Seems like an AC-owned aircraft to me.

NTM

It is.

The thing

I stand corrected on the above points.

saobh_ie

Just popping back a bit to the internal security role. With a lift capacity of 6 tons (Edit: Where'd I get that from? It's 2778kg) would it be reasonable to expect it to be used to ferry the bomb squad or an element of it to scenes? Rather than having to wait a couple of hours for them to arrive as we saw in Dublin and at the Airport over the last number of months?

Also given a total of four, would it be reasonalbe that they would be able to maintain three in service at all times, two for training as mentioned above, one on standby for anything that might happen (internal security or to replace one of the training birds if it goes U/S) and then one down for maintenance?

Would they really get 32 people nevermind troops into an AW139? The website has crew listed as Pilot/Passenger 1/15.

The EH101 however can carry 32 people. Has the news paper quoted by the OP (assuming its a paper, its very news speak) made an error?

Manic Moran

My guess is 32 battle-ready troops transported by the whole fleet of four at once.

Of course, how many the chopper's supposed to carry vs how many it actually carries are not necessarily the same. Take, for example, a CH47. Officially listed at about 32 combat-ready troops, the Brits crammed over 90 at once.

NTM

100gSoma

pics of 274 and 275

Steyr

There are pics on www.irishmilitaryonline.com of them in the Curragh armed with the GPMG's!

the_syco

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/9391838?view=Eircomnet

[FONT=Verdana,Helvetica,sans-serif]hey can travel at up to 185 mph and stay in the air for three-and-a-half hours at a time.
Two General Purpose Machine Guns (GMPGs) and Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) are also fitted.
Another two Augusta helicopters are due to be delivered in early 2007 with an option of two more.

Yea. Guns. Always handy against our own terrorists.

[/FONT]