Chirporactor or Spinologist - advice please

Siogfinsceal

I have always had a bad back - went to a bad chiropractor for a year before finding a really good one who took xrays and discovered that I have scoliosis. Its not very severe and does not warrant an operation but its unusual because one oif the 'curves' is at the base of my skull which is probably why it was never picked up in hosp xrays. I also damaged a vertabrae in my neck in an accident. This Chiropractor was fantastic but is moving abroad and I am very worried about finding another due to bad experiences with some before. Can anyone recommend a good one? Also a friend of mine recommended a spinologist- can anyone explain what the difference is and advise me which is best for me to be going to? I have been goign to my current chiropractor every 3-4 weeks and my posture has improved so much I would hate to get worse again

N8

Unfortunately finding out what a spinologist is, is not as easily established as you would think. I looked it up and found differing opinions as to education and what they do, these varied from chiropractors not registered or indeed struck off in the UK to chancers through to well educated and principled practitioners educated in the southern hemisphere in a course that very much resembles a shortened course in chiropractic.

Chiropractors are, I suppose, like any other professionals, they can range between good to bad. I understand what you have is something easily treated by an ‘SOT’ chiropractor. I was given this name and address but no number (it’s probably in the Golden Pages), MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forum If not look for a member of the Chiropractic Association of Ireland. You’ll probably need longer term care with that (it won’t straighten in an instant) and a good pair of prescription orthotics (contact MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forum).

Good luck

Minty

Hi,

I've actually had a few sessions with MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forum who was suggested to you previously. She is a chiropractor and is very good.
I'm currently attending a spinologist who was recommended to me recently. He's MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forumHe was recommended to me by my herbalist. I had also spoken to other people who had attended him and they all said he was fantastic. He also works with the Wicklow Football Team. His clinic was full yesterday when I attended.

Regards,
Minty

Tigrrrr

What sort of qualification is a "spinologist" required to have? I know chiropracters basically need... nothing.

2Scoops

Tigrrrr wrote:

What sort of qualification is a "spinologist" required to have? I know chiropracters basically need... nothing.

Well I'm a thoraco-lumbarologist which is an even better qualification than spinologist and I think you'll agree that a silly piece of paper like a degree is no reflection of your ability to enhance energy flows to the back region, unlike life experience and 10 years practical experience in the field! When will you conformists realize there is more to learning medicine than education and that orthodox Western medicine is trying to prevent people from accessing the best alternative therapies because it cuts profits from the BIG BUSINESS and the evil corporate multinationals??!

Sarcasm, btw:) But this siege mentality appeals to uneducated folk who think 'the man' is holding them back - which isn't entirely untrue in life but actually is completely untrue in the case of alternative (i.e. unproven - otherwise it wouldn't be "alternative"] medicine. Appeals to some primitive instinct or somesuch, I guess. But what would I know? - I'm no brainologist, that's for sure.

Tigrrrr

could just about feel my blood pressure rising until I got to the second paragraph:D

Siogfinsceal

Hi everyone, I managed to find a brilliant spinologist in MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forum and have gone there for a few months. He is so much better than the chiropractors I used to go to.
He does deep massage before moving the joints which makes much more sense to me. Instead of just keeping me as I was he has been working on improving how my spine was - for the first time in my life I have a waist that is equal on each side and can move my right shoulder back - something I have never been able to do and that a physio and a chiro couldnt help me with previously. my hips are also even now which means my legs are even in length, something they havent been in years when I started going to him there was more than an inch between them!
Some of teh work he had to do with me was very painful but it definately worth it so woul drecommend him to anyone in the same situation I was.

N8

Tigrrrr wrote:

What sort of qualification is a "spinologist" required to have? I know chiropracters basically need... nothing.

Chiropractic education involves university study and post-graduate training and is similar to that of a medical practitioner in course content, lecture hours and basic subjects studied, but differs in its clinical sciences, as chiropractors have different clinical skills, differing application and delivery, and different clinical objectives.

The chiropractic profession, almost uniquely as a profession, has internationally agreed standards of education, monitored presently through the Councils for Chiropractic Education (C.C.E.), of which there is a European agency, the ECCE. Presently, the World Health Organisation (W.H.O.), in conjunction with major chiropractic associations, is drafting guidelines on basic training and safety of chiropractic for governmental referral.

http://www.who.int/medicines/areas/traditional/Chiro-Guidelines.pdf
http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/ahcpr/chapter3.htm

not sure about spinologists or their training (never actually met one) but if it worked for you - good stuff!

Tigrrrr

N8 wrote:

Chiropractic education involves university study and post-graduate training

Neither are required. Anyone can be a chiropractor.

and is similar to that of a medical practitioner in course content, lecture hours and basic subjects studied, but differs in its clinical sciences

No university in this country offers courses in chiropractic, to compare it to medical education at university level (when one need not even have sat the junior cert) seems a bit odd. I'm not out to attack chiropractic by the way, people are free to do what they want with their bodies within reason, but as an "alternative medicine" I personally find it dodgy.

2Scoops

Tigrrrr wrote:

I'm not out to attack chiropractic by the way, people are free to do what they want with their bodies within reason, but as an "alternative medicine" I personally find it dodgy.

Well, in fairness, some chiropractic services are considered valid and valued complements to more established health fields. A lot of the bad press that may have helped form your opinion focus on the unregulated chiropractor super-spoofers. The fact that the profession still has this problem despite huge efforts to stamp it out is a shame because it does have something to add to patient care, even WHO would agree. Of course, this is not a complete endorsement of all chiropractic services, just some of them. Beware of chiropractors overstating the value of their services.

Long story short: good in parts.

lola_run

2Scoops wrote:

Well I'm a thoraco-lumbarologist which is an even better qualification than spinologist and I think you'll agree that a silly piece of paper like a degree is no reflection of your ability to enhance energy flows to the back region, unlike life experience and 10 years practical experience in the field! When will you conformists realize there is more to learning medicine than education and that orthodox Western medicine is trying to prevent people from accessing the best alternative therapies because it cuts profits from the BIG BUSINESS and the evil corporate multinationals??!

Sarcasm, btw:) But this siege mentality appeals to uneducated folk who think 'the man' is holding them back - which isn't entirely untrue in life but actually is completely untrue in the case of alternative (i.e. unproven - otherwise it wouldn't be "alternative"] medicine. Appeals to some primitive instinct or somesuch, I guess. But what would I know? - I'm no brainologist, that's for sure.

Hello, your post was interesting. My mother has osteoperosis/arthritis. What can be done to ease her pain? If you want to PM me with your details, I'd be interested. Thanks.

2Scoops

lola_run wrote:

Hello, your post was interesting. My mother has osteoperosis/arthritis. What can be done to ease her pain? If you want to PM me with your details, I'd be interested. Thanks.

I was joking when I said I was a thoraco-lumbarologist - I was making the point that many alternative/unlicensed charlatans give themselves an impressive sounding title to hide the fact they are snake oil merchants with no qualifications.

I'm afraid your just going to have to trust evil Western medicine and proven complementary therapies.

steve66

Siogfinsceal wrote: »

Hi everyone, I managed to find a brilliant spinologist in MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forum and have gone there for a few months. He is so much better than the chiropractors I used to go to.
He does deep massage before moving the joints which makes much more sense to me. Instead of just keeping me as I was he has been working on improving how my spine was - for the first time in my life I have a waist that is equal on each side and can move my right shoulder back - something I have never been able to do and that a physio and a chiro couldnt help me with previously. my hips are also even now which means my legs are even in length, something they havent been in years when I started going to him there was more than an inch between them!
Some of teh work he had to do with me was very painful but it definately worth it so woul drecommend him to anyone in the same situation I was.

Hi, Can you tell me how long a session lasts for, please?
M

Siogfinsceal

Hi,
yeah it depends on how bad you are and also how many are queued up outside (he does not take appointments so you go on a first come first served basis).
My first session lasted a good while as he had to do a lot. Now I go every 2 weeks and its about 15-20 minutes @ €50 (initial first session is €55 or 60 i think). When I was in a bad state at the start I was often in longer he will do what it takes to get you as good as he can in that session. well worth the money I travel an hour each way just to get down to see him so I would not be doing that journey if I was not feeling the benefit!

When you go in he will take a look at you and your posture and see how you are standing etc. he will then work on you massaging with oil to get rid of any lactic acid build up and to loosen tight muscles and then will do some joint movement with you (if your neck is bad he will also work on your neck and crack it).

He also does something called 'cranio sacral therapy' its kinda like reiki they put hands on certain parts of the body anf work on bringing energy. sounds mad but he has done this on my neck and back and it worked! My back was rigid so he did this for a few mins and was then able to move it.

anyway of you want his details or number PM me

chirodocjt

Well hello - as a new user and from my name here you can tell I am a Doctor of Chiropractic. And yes it is Doctor - some posts here have been quite on track and some not.

First of all the recomendation to see chiropractic.ie which is the web site for the Chiropractic Association of Ireland would be a good first choice.

Second the statement that anybody can say they are a chiropractor can be unfortunatly true here in Ireland due to lack of legislation to define it. Something the CAI has been working on for years.

Now properly trained chiropractors do indeed do a pre-med undergraduate program and then follow up with a 4 year program to obtain the title of Doctor of Chiropractic. (in the US in the EU it is somewhat different but not completly) in said 4 years there is over 4000 hours of couses in biology, histology, osteology, myology, pretty much all the ology's and actually more hours in anatomy than most Medical Doctors attend balanced by there spending more hours of study in pharmacology - since chiopractors do not prescribe drugs and allopathic doctors (MD's) do that would make sence.

Also - as someone did say as with any profession - there are good and bad practicioners.

I suppose some spinologists may indeed provide good care to their clients - there is still a huge difference to the educational requirements of a true chiropractor - again check with the Chiropractic Association of Ireland web site - they do only let properly educated - whether from the US or the EU join the association.

The best of luck to you - Jeff

tallaght01

chirodocjt wrote: »

Well hello - as a new user and from my name here you can tell I am a Doctor of Chiropractic. And yes it is Doctor - some posts here have been quite on track and some not.

First of all the recomendation to see chiropractic.ie which is the web site for the Chiropractic Association of Ireland would be a good first choice.

Second the statement that anybody can say they are a chiropractor can be unfortunatly true here in Ireland due to lack of legislation to define it. Something the CAI has been working on for years.

Now properly trained chiropractors do indeed do a pre-med undergraduate program and then follow up with a 4 year program to obtain the title of Doctor of Chiropractic. (in the US in the EU it is somewhat different but not completly) in said 4 years there is over 4000 hours of couses in biology, histology, osteology, myology, pretty much all the ology's and actually more hours in anatomy than most Medical Doctors attend balanced by there spending more hours of study in pharmacology - since chiopractors do not prescribe drugs and allopathic doctors (MD's) do that would make sence.

Also - as someone did say as with any profession - there are good and bad practicioners.

I suppose some spinologists may indeed provide good care to their clients - there is still a huge difference to the educational requirements of a true chiropractor - again check with the Chiropractic Association of Ireland web site - they do only let properly educated - whether from the US or the EU join the association.

The best of luck to you - Jeff

People are free to choose whatever treatments they want, but it should be based on them knowing the facts. So, I'll call a crock of balls on the claim that the chiropractic students do more hours of anatomy and dissection than medical students.

I would also argue that the most important "ology" that they miss out on is a good grasp of proper pathology.

Siogfinsceal

at the end of the day surely it is the results and the relief that patients get that matter? I went to several chiropractors who did not work for me, and one who did but who moved country.
The spinologist by contrast has given me great relief and a better quality of life. For this reason I don't give a damn who has what qualification or how many hours they did I will go to the person that actually improves my condition. I went to one chiropractor who told me that I had no hope of improving my posture just of stopping it getting worse. he also claimed my problems were from using the right hand side of my body too much?!. he never mentioned the fact that I had scoliosis and could offer no solution to the problem with my shoulder. Ironically he only ever treated me fully clothed so having never seen my back I wondered where this diagnosis came from! naturally there can be bad experiences in any medical field

whats interesting is that any chiropractor I have ever met where I have mentioned that I went to a spinologist has immediately gotten defensive and slated the spinologists claiming they are not the real deal, are not as highly qualified etc. Was speaking to a chiro recently in a social setting where he was claiming that spinologists are all derived from an american cult etc etc. whats rather telling is that I havent heard my spinologist slagging off chiropractors.

not everything is defined by the degree on your wall or how many hours study you do. As a patient it is logical to base my opinion on what I achieve from going to someone and logically I will go where I get results regardless of what type of 'ologist' or 'actor' they are!

AtomicHorror

2Scoops wrote: »

Well, in fairness, some chiropractic services are considered valid and valued complements to more established health fields. A lot of the bad press that may have helped form your opinion focus on the unregulated chiropractor super-spoofers. The fact that the profession still has this problem despite huge efforts to stamp it out is a shame because it does have something to add to patient care, even WHO would agree. Of course, this is not a complete endorsement of all chiropractic services, just some of them. Beware of chiropractors overstating the value of their services.

Long story short: good in parts.

Fairly mainstream chiropractors will often claim to be able to treat stuff they have no business treating.

From a press pack issued by no less than the British Chiropractic Association:

Birth and infancy can sometimes be difficult and traumatic for both mother and baby.
Chiropractors have reported success with easing this stress and the following
symptoms:
- asthma
- colic
- hyperactivity
- bedwetting
- sleep and feeding problems
- breathing difficulties

It's pretty hard to find randomised, double-blinded trials that show chiropractic to be effective at anything other than back pain relief. A couple of the associations are trying to sue journalists and academic journals for having the gall to point this out.

franr

I'm attending a spinologist at the moment in Portlaoise and the emphasis is on healing. I've never felt better,instead of telling me to jump in at the deep end this guy recommends rest allowing the body to heal and then gradually re-introducing activity and physical therapy to strengthen the muscles. Spent a fortune on a chiropractor a few yeas ago and all I got was broke and no healing.
Works for me.

eilo1

Im training to be a physio and living with a girl thats training in herbal medicine (you can see where this is going)
She is currently attending a spinologist in Greystones, but has ongoing neck problems.
Yesterday she came home with a sever dull ache that was radiating through her neck (this is classic nerve pain). She said while having her neck "clicked" the previous day it felt as though there was a blockage and it just didnt feel right. The pain started shortly afterwards. She went back to him again yesterday and the same thing happened. She isnt sleeping properly and is in near constant pain but has gone back to him AGAIN today!
Im very worried that this "clicking" he is doing is too aggressive for her and that he has pinched or damadged a nerve.
Does anyone have any experiance of something similar or any advice at all. She is very into alternative treatments and wont take any of my advice on the subject (which is to not let him "click" her anymore!)

Iv been looking into the qualifications to become a spinologist and the course looks very light in comparison with physio or chiro. For example I have been studying physio for 2 years now and completed one module soley on the spine and I still would not feel competent to treat anyone or to try manipulate anyones spine.
Can they be competent after one weekend every 5 weeks for 20 months?

DrIndy

The answer is simply no.

The only person who is qualified to give musculoskeletal therapy as a chartered and registered practioner is a physiotherapist.

By virtue of being a registered pracitioner (dentist, doctor, nurse, midwife, physiotherapist and soon to be joined by OT, Speech Therapist and dietician) is that our patients have a recourse to go to if we are incompetent and a statuatory body ensuring standards and treatment which is in their best interest rather than our financial ones.

N8

DrIndy wrote: »

The answer is simply no.

The only person who is qualified to give musculoskeletal therapy as a chartered and registered practioner is a physiotherapist.

Rubbish and you know it Dr. Indy. Chiropractors are very well qualified and in many areas more qualified than a physiotherapist.

Many young Irish chiropractors now returning trained to the highest standards in the world only to continue to encounter this same medical prejudice and bias you have just jockeyed out.

Chartered and registered does not equate to a qualification - it equates to regulation. Chiropractors in Ireland have a voluntary, self-regulatory body, the Chiropractic Association of Ireland (C.A.I.). The C.A.I. has established professional guidelines and membership requires professional indemnity insurance and proof of ongoing education. Only chiropractors with internationally recognized qualifications may join the CAI.

The CAI is the source of recourse for chiropractic patients to go to if they are incompetent and ensure standards and treatment which are in their best interest rather than the financial interests of the chiropractor.

Indeed the CAI has been pushing for statutory regulation and find themselves regularly rebuffed.


eilo1 there is an excellent chiropractor in Greystones that many chiropractors themselves travel to: MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forum - I would recommend your friend attend him.

eilo1

N8 wrote: »

Rubbish and you know it Dr. Indy. Chiropractors are very well qualified and in many areas more qualified than a physiotherapist.

Many young Irish chiropractors now returning trained to the highest standards in the world only to continue to encounter this same medical prejudice and bias you have just jockeyed out.

Chartered and registered does not equate to a qualification - it equates to regulation. Chiropractors in Ireland have a voluntary, self-regulatory body, the Chiropractic Association of Ireland (C.A.I.). The C.A.I. has established professional guidelines and membership requires professional indemnity insurance and proof of ongoing education. Only chiropractors with internationally recognized qualifications may join the CAI.

The CAI is the source of recourse for chiropractic patients to go to if they are incompetent and ensure standards and treatment which are in their best interest rather than the financial interests of the chiropractor.

Indeed the CAI has been pushing for statutory regulation and find themselves regularly rebuffed.


eilo1 there is an excellent chiropractor in Greystones that many chiropractors themselves travel to: MOD SNIP: Recommendations of specific practitioners are not permitted in the Health Sciences forum - I would recommend your friend attend him.

Thanks but she wont go to a chiro, she seems to think they are mainstream medice and therefore the enemy,(how ironic given the debate you two are having lol)

My 2 cents on the above and from being a 2nd year physio is that chiro's are better at manipulations and physio's are better at musclular issues. But it would be better if the 2 worked together for a more holistic thearapy.

back to the spinologist guy I really think he should be reported as he has damaged her. She said she would discuss the pain with him today. If he has any integrity he will refuse to treat her for at least a week to allow any swelling in the joint to ease etc.

N8

eilo1 wrote: »

Thanks but she wont go to a chiro, she seems to think they are mainstream medice and therefore the enemy,(how ironic given the debate you two are having lol)

LOL Spinology is actually a branch from chiropractic started by a chap called Reggie Gold who believed chiropractic was becoming too medicalised

eilo1 wrote: »

My 2 cents on the above and from being a 2nd year physio is that chiro's are better at manipulations and physio's are better at musclular issues.

Agreed.

And as well as this both professions have skills not touched upon in each other's education, for example: rehabilitation of speech, lung draining - specialist physiotherapy; radiography and radiology - part and parcel of chiropractic education.

eilo1 wrote: »

But it would be better if the 2 worked together for a more holistic thearapy.

My missus and I have said this often.

eilo1 wrote: »

back to the spinologist guy I really think he should be reported as he has damaged her.

As far as I know there is no assocaition for spinologists in Ireland, no state registration and no requirement for professional indemnity insurance.

locum-motion

chirodocjt wrote: »

Well hello - as a new user and from my name here you can tell I am a Doctor of Chiropractic. And yes it is Doctor...

By custom and tradition, in this country medical practitioners, dentists and those who hold Doctoral degrees are addressed as 'Doctor'.

AFAIK*, there's no legal restriction on the use of the word, unlike for example the terms "Medical Practitioner", "Dentist" and "Pharmacist".

Chiropractors call themselves "Doctor of Chiropractic", because that's the title of the qualification that they are awarded following their period of study. Where does that study happen? Well, the Chiropractic Association of Ireland doesn't bother to tell us on their website. In our near neighbour England, one can study Chirporactic in the AngloEuropean College of Chiropractic or in the McTimoney College of Chirpractic. Are either of them part of a University/Polytechnic? No. Are they both 'independant colleges'? Yes.

Do I consider a graduate of either of those institutions to be a Doctor? No I don't.

Effectively, Chiropractors are 'Doctors' because they say they're Doctors.

In fact I look forward to the day a Chiropractor asks me to call him 'Doctor', so that I can take great pleasure in saying 'No'.

* I looked into it last year for a discussion on another thread.

goose2005

Siogfinsceal wrote: »

whats interesting is that any chiropractor I have ever met where I have mentioned that I went to a spinologist has immediately gotten defensive and slated the spinologists claiming they are not the real deal, are not as highly qualified etc. Was speaking to a chiro recently in a social setting where he was claiming that spinologists are all derived from an american cult etc etc. whats rather telling is that I havent heard my spinologist slagging off chiropractors.

Interestingly, BJ Palmer (the founder of chiropractic) considered establishing it as a religion.

Siogfinsceal wrote: »

When you go in he will take a look at you and your posture and see how you are standing etc. he will then work on you massaging with oil to get rid of any lactic acid build up and to loosen tight muscles and then will do some joint movement with you (if your neck is bad he will also work on your neck and crack it).

This could give you a stroke - http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

He also does something called 'cranio sacral therapy' its kinda like reiki they put hands on certain parts of the body anf work on bringing energy. sounds mad but he has done this on my neck and back and it worked! My back was rigid so he did this for a few mins and was then able to move it.

Did he also prescribe 100 mg of magic beans?

eilo1 wrote: »

T
My 2 cents on the above and from being a 2nd year physio is that chiro's are better at manipulations and physio's are better at musclular issues. But it would be better if the 2 worked together for a more holistic thearapy.

"holistic" and "we treat the patient, not the illness" is standard quack bull****

eilo1

goose2005 wrote: »

Interestingly, BJ Palmer (the founder of chiropractic) considered establishing it as a religion.

This could give you a stroke - http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chirostroke.html

Did he also prescribe 100 mg of magic beans?



"holistic" and "we treat the patient, not the illness" is standard quack bull****

sorry what exactly is your point here? Combining physical joint manipulations to possibly realign vertabra and then retraining the surrounding muscles, tendons and ligaments to support the joints new possition is quack bull?
AND PHYSIOTHERAPY IS NOT AN ALTERNATIVE TREATMENT!

locum-motion

eilo1 wrote: »

[/B]

sorry what exactly is your point here?...

I think his point is quite clear...

N8

Hi Locum-motion

The title doctor has a long tradition and association with chiropractors however most as with medical doctors dentists and real doctors (doctorate holders) do not invite anyone to address them as such past their business cards – don’t get hung up on it. Effectively GPs are doctors because they say they are too.

Chiropractic has many places of study in Europe, some like the Anglo European College of Chiropractic, Glamorgan, Barcelona and Odense that are part and parcel of colleges and others that are fully independent (as they are entitled to be).

McTimmoney therapy is not known as chiropractic anywhere else outside the UK except those jurisdictions without statutory recognition and regulation of chiropractic.


Hi Goose2005

I too understand BJ Palmer (not the founder of chiropractic) considered establishing it as a religion, due in part to the pressure from established medicine at the time which was forcing the jailing of chiropractors (at a time when they were saving lives in chiropractic hospitals (YES) and chiropractic mental institutions (YES). – they had a level of success without the use of drugs and ECT that was unrivalled at the time. Perhaps give it a google before coming back to me to provide the references please.

Chiropractic was linked by the medical profession and naysayers to stroke. It has since been found to have the same rate of stroke post visit as those visiting their GP for the same symptoms inferring that the stroke is insitu and already in occurrence with the symptoms forcing those having such to either present themselves to a GP, chiropractor or another. Chiropractic does not cause strokes no more than visiting your GP complaining of a headache.


The prescription of magic beans is a new one on me but so is reiki – personaaly I would believe either would have little or no effect other than the trouble of passing the magic beans.

Treating the patient is a valid approach nowadays - it has been termed the patient centred approach. Perhaps asking the patient about other drugs and condition before deciding upon the further prescription of a drug or treatment would appear somewhat foolish to some but pertinent and valid to others.

eilo1 wrote: »

sorry what exactly is your point here? Combining physical joint manipulations to possibly realign vertabra and then retraining the surrounding muscles, tendons and ligaments to support the joints new possition is quack bull?

Hi Eilo1
Don’t get too upset - prejudice and ill even often uninformed views on the norm on this forum

Don't be expecting referrals when you qualify from your GP they enjoy the repeat prescription business

CuteOne

What about osteopaths? How do they differ?

eilo1

hmmm I went out with a guy who did one year of physio and then left to study osteo and im still not sure ! lol!
sorry