Halloween and Muslims

lostexpectation

On morning Ireland the other day they they briefly read out a letter from parent saying they couldn't have a class halloween party incase it offended the non-nationals, of course this is abit silly and a bit right because halloween is such a mixtures of stuff that its really hard to define what its about.


now I don't know what religion these non-nationals were? I can only guess they were african muslims but they could have been orthodox christians??

do muslim have an end of harvest festival? end of summer festival eid?

I dunno it might have been a good oppurtunity for the class to more closely examine what halloween is beyond costumes and sweets in the classroom... the latin day of dead is becoming popular too.


random links http://islam.about.com/b/a/257539.htm
http://islam.about.com/library/weekly/aa103098.htm

pagan hmm is there something else beyond pagan like non-religious agriculture holidays?

surely the most overiding thing is the time of year, end of summer, end of harvest, beginning of winter, begin of the celtic new year, most muslim holy days must be based on date above all else too? is Eid festival fast breaking must have to with extra food being around?

metrovelvet

I think treating non nationals like they have sticks up their asses and get offended by everything is far far more offensive in itself then including them in some of our most fun festivals like holloween.

the_new_mr

It's an interesting question and one that I'm not able to answer. I used to go trick or treating as a kid and am starting to wonder whether or not I should have now.

At the same time, actions are measured by intentions and I had no idea what halloween was about except that it was an excuse for getting dressed up and going around houses and getting sweets.

I guess it would be okay for kids to get involved as long as they know that it's all a load of rubbish but, then again, maybe I'm talking rubbish myself and it shouldn't be practiced. I just don't know so I should probably just leave it at that and be quiet

Oh! I just noticed that the boards theme is back to normal from the temporary halloween one. Twas cool... if a bit too black

blackthorn

lostexpectation wrote:

is Eid festival fast breaking must have to with extra food being around?

Well no, because Eid is calculated on a lunar calendar it occurs at the same time of year only once every 33 years or so. It's not fixed at harvest time in other words. In a few years we'll be celebrating it in the middle of Summer! When that happens, I guess people will wonder if Eid is not connected in some way with the solstice

Hobbes

AFAIR halloween was based off the moon cycles as well originally.

wes

This stuff is always weird where someone stops doing something, because "it might" offend someone.......

Did anyone actually complain?

Anyway Halloween is a bit of fun.

Nevyn

Mormons, jehovah's witness, other born again christains have issue with hollow'een and there are often irish and non irish, non eu children of those faiths in some of the schools and as a result some of the schools decide not to have hollow'een parties if not all the children can take part.

lostexpectation

Thaedydal wrote:

Mormons, jehovah's witness, other born again christains have issue with hollow'een and there are often irish and non irish, non eu children of those faiths in some of the schools and as a result some of the schools decide not to have hollow'een parties if not all the children can take part.

thats probably it rather the muslims but what can you do about it.

again mark it some way tone it down a little maybe, i don't know how much repesct I could give a jehova's witness

Nevyn

It is a case of not excluding children.
This yer neither of my childrens classes "dressed" up for hollow'een but they did art projects of pumpkins, scarecrows cats and bats and spoke about the traditions of hollow'een.

wes

Also just say another thing, depending on which group of Muslims you are talking some have no problem celebrating other people festivals in good spirit. I know Kashmiry Muslims use to be invited to celebrate Hindu festivals and they invited the Hindu's to celebrate Muslims festivals.

My family is Kashmiry and we continue that tradition here. I celebrated Halloween as a child and also Christmas. I know some Muslims would be against this, but I see no problem with joining in.

I think it is a great way for everyone to get to know each other.

Hobart

I believe it's a matter of un-nicker twisting to be honest.

There seems to be an awful lot of talk about "celebrating" halloween when, by natural/modern selection, the whole pagan/"homage to the land" original point of the festivel has long since gone.

Yes, we could google and find some 14 or 15 people dressed in robes hailing the "earth God" and celebrating life but, by the by, halloween has in modern times come to represent the arrival of dressed up kids at the door looking for a treat. No more or no less. That's it.

If one want's to delve into the whole religous/anti-religous bias behind this "celebration" and use this as some sort of tool to remove the whole innocence of childhood fun from it, be that child Islamic, RC, Buddist...etc, well then I'll gladly volunteer to switch the light off as the last person leaves.

Treora

lostexpectation wrote:

On morning Ireland the other day they they briefly read out a letter from parent saying they couldn't have a class halloween party incase it offended the non-nationals.

:eek: Scarey stuff. Isn't integration, especially and primary school level, the theme of the day considering the effects of multiculturalism in the UK. National children sharing and understanding foreign customs and cultures and non-nationals being included in ours. Those who wish not to be included can either watch from a distance or play in the school hall, supervised of course. It sounds like a case of extreme intolerance by anyone who would not wish to observe a beneign native tradition. I can only see Ireland becoming less tolerant due to attitudes like this.

Hobbes

Integration works both ways. Should we force muslim children to celebrate halloween if there parents don't want to? How about making Jewish children celebrate christmas? How about Catholic children being forced to celebrate hanukkah or Eid ul-Fitr?

Ireland has been pretty hermit like when it comes to other cultures for a long time up until the last 6 years. The level of intolerance is due to that and saying because another culture won't celebrate your culture is wrong is the height of intolerance.

Wibbs

TBH While I take Hobbes point, I don't think the celebration of another culture is were the issue arises it's the respect for other cultures that goes both ways that is where the problem may lay.

Hobbes

Wibbs wrote:

TBH While I take Hobbes point, I don't think the celebration of another culture is were the issue arises it's the respect for other cultures that goes both ways that is where the problem may lay.

So what would be the solution then? As far as I can see that is the only viable solution for the school.

You end up ferrying the 1 or 2 kids off to a room while everyone else plays? That will just make matters worse.

Forcing the kids to join in on something that goes against their parents wishes isn't going to help either.

It also doesn't stop the children from celebrating Halloween outside of school.

IT Loser

Hobbes wrote:

Integration works both ways. Should we force muslim children to celebrate halloween if there parents don't want to? How about making Jewish children celebrate christmas? How about Catholic children being forced to celebrate hanukkah or Eid ul-Fitr?

Ireland has been pretty hermit like when it comes to other cultures for a long time up until the last 6 years. The level of intolerance is due to that and saying because another culture won't celebrate your culture is wrong is the height of intolerance.

Way to get it wrong Hobbes. The issue here isn't making people participate in OUR traditions or even RESPECT OUR traditions...the issue here is the suspension of the traditional celebration out of fear of causing offense to these so called Minorities.

We aren't suggesting that they be forced to participate.

We aren't suggesting that they be forced to acknowledge.

What is suggested is that they can be included or excluded, as they see fit.

IT Loser

Hobbes wrote:

Ireland has been pretty hermit like when it comes to other cultures for a long time up until the last 6 years. The level of intolerance is due to that and saying because another culture won't celebrate your culture is wrong is the height of intolerance.

Thats good. How did you come up with that one? All alone?

Ireland absorbed the Normans like they weren't even there. Then there was the English, who, like it or not, by and larged FORCED Ireland into the modern era.

I think what you are trying to say is that we haven't been exposed to Africans, Jews, Muslims, right???

Why is our level of intolerance {and who are you to say that there is such a high level???....} due to this, as you put it?

Again, we don't want them to celebrate "our culture"...we just want them to stay Shctum while we do. If thats Ok.



YOu remind me of these pathetic RTE types, with their programmes like "Proof 2" and this new Irish movie about how Blacks are exploited, burned out, entrapped, etc....HA!...they had to dream up fictitious accounts of brutality and then dramatise them, as "intolerant Ireland" hadn't actually gotten around to setting about these people in a sufficiently brutal fashion

Pathetic.

IT Loser

Hobbes wrote:

So what would be the solution then? As far as I can see that is the only viable solution for the school.

You end up ferrying the 1 or 2 kids off to a room while everyone else plays? That will just make matters worse.

Forcing the kids to join in on something that goes against their parents wishes isn't going to help either.

It also doesn't stop the children from celebrating Halloween outside of school.

SO WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST?

I suggest we try Democracy.

Parents for 20

Parents against: 2

Halloween gets the go-ahead by a 10:1 ratio...:D

IT Loser

Hobbes wrote:

Integration works both ways. Should we force muslim children to celebrate halloween if there parents don't want to? How about making Jewish children celebrate christmas? How about Catholic children being forced to celebrate hanukkah or Eid ul-Fitr?

Ireland has been pretty hermit like when it comes to other cultures for a long time up until the last 6 years. The level of intolerance is due to that and saying because another culture won't celebrate your culture is wrong is the height of intolerance.

Of course, what is amusing...is that these "cultures" {vultures?} weren't in such a rush to help us shake off our "HERMIT" status UNTIL we actually......wait for it....made a few quid and had the ball rolling.


Saint Patrick showed up here when all this country was was a half arsed bunch of Fairy Worshippers lighting fires up on Tara Hill.


The "other cultures" had to wait till there was cash galore before they harked to help us "throw off out hermit status". Do you dare dispute this? You yourself have mentioned a specific time frame of 6 years. Can you explain that time frame?

Would you ever.....:mad:

Hobbes

IT Loser wrote:

The "other cultures" had to wait till there was cash galore before they harked to help us "throw off out hermit status". Do you dare dispute this?

Whats to dispute? The better the country becomes of course more people come to it.

However that doesn't equate to the Muslim religion that has been officially in Ireland since the 1950's.

You yourself have mentioned a specific time frame of 6 years. Can you explain that time frame?

Well I came back from the US in 2001 after spending three years there. Prior to leaving Dublin city center was mainly Irish people and run down. Returning in 2001 it was good to see that Ireland had a better mix of different cultures and a lot more modern looking.

Hobbes

Hmm I didn't notice your other posts. You can use dontlogin.boards.ie if you want to continue reading this forum for the next month.

Halloween gets the go-ahead by a 10:1 ratio..

No one is stopping Halloween from being celebrated. What they are doing is stopping children being left out for one reason or another.

Hobbes

and before anyone else continues on note that the OP never said that it is because of Muslims that the change in school was made, was only asking questions of Muslims relations to Halloween.

Anyone else wanting to get all hoppy on immigrants/different cultures/etc will be taking an extended holiday as well.

Treora

Hobbes wrote:

Integration works both ways. Should we force muslim children to celebrate halloween if there parents don't want to? How about making Jewish children celebrate christmas? How about Catholic children being forced to celebrate hanukkah or Eid ul-Fitr?

Irish children should be invited to observe other traditions and not stopped from practising their own due to fear of offending someone else.

Hobbes

Treora wrote:

Irish children should be invited to observe other traditions and not stopped from practising their own due to fear of offending someone else.

Being Irish and Muslim are not mutually exclusive.

Like I said, what do you suggest then the teachers should do? Segregation?

Also they are not being stopped from celebrating Halloween, it is just not in School.

PoleStar

Why is it in our country we have to do things to satisfy those who immigrate?

Political correctness and tolerance if let go the full way ultimately will destroy our national identity.

If i choose to emigrate to a different country then I have made that choice and when i enter should expect to abide by their laws and also perhaps make some effort to integrate such as perhaps learning a language and respecting the traditions and perhaps religion that makes up that country.

Thus I think we in our own country of Ireland should be allowed to continue to practice our own customs that we have had for centuries and not pander to the foibles of political correctness. Taken to the full extreme I can picture schools with no Christmas decorations, no Christmas holidays, Easter Holidays, no Holy Days, no images of our traditions or religion in our schools for fear of offending someone. We will have to rename Christmas the "non-denominational winter holiday", perhaps Easter should be called "the Easter egg fair" or is that too offensive to those who perhaps dont follow the traditions of our country.

If i go to Saudi Arabia, and I know this is an extreme example, but just to illustrate a point: for a start I could not visit on a holiday, but if i did go there, I would be punished for any public non-muslim religious display as this is against the law. Do you think if a non-saudi child was in a school there they could say, hang on, I'm not muslim, please stop these muslim celebrations in school as it offends me.

When people come to our country they should respect our traditions and by choosing to come to our country that should be inherent.

I do understand that many of these calls to stop national religious themed celebrations in schools etc do not come from non-nationals but from the big-wigs who want to be politically correct, but I think that by our friends from other countries learning about our traditions, perhaps they will understand us and integrate with us. Perhaps we should ahve celebrations for Eid in schools to educate our Irish born children about the ways of those that imigrate to our country. Only this way will there be any real integration. Those people that think they are being politically correct to improve relations with non-nationals are only isolating them from our traditions and in my opinion, will only worsen the gaps between our cultures.

I have many non-national friends, muslim, hindu, and others. I have celbrated Eid and feaste myself and enjoyed it thoroughly as friends and perhaps I may have learned something about their way of life.

Hobbes

As the thread seems intent on derailing from the Forums charter moving it to Humanities. Please ensure you read the new forums charter.

InFront

PoleStar wrote:

If i go to Saudi Arabia, and I know this is an extreme example, but just to illustrate a point: for a start I could not visit on a holiday, but if i did go there, I would be punished for any public non-muslim religious display as this is against the law. Do you think if a non-saudi child was in a school there they could say, hang on, I'm not muslim, please stop these muslim celebrations in school as it offends me.

First off all I think you're getting very mixed up between the concepts of nationality and religion.

Secondly, that Saudi example shows all the more reason to allow for an open, welcoming society for all immigrants for them to enjoy the benefits that a non denominational state governance can often afford.

Just My View

I know, let's not celebrate anything, ever.
What a great gift for our children.
Nobody left out, everbody included, in nothing...

JC 2K3

Can somebody tell me why a Muslim child cannot participate in Halloween celebrations? It's not a very religious celebration at all, just a bit of fun. Oh and whoever said that they can celebrate it, but not in school, school is a central part of a child's life, it's much more than a centre of education. Not being allowed to celebrate one's culture in school isn't fair.

I'm starting to think that integration simply doesn't work...

InFront

Can somebody tell me why a Muslim child cannot participate in Halloween celebrations?

Lets not lose the run of ourselves guys, who says Muslims cannot participate in this quite benign, fun, holiday.
I have no doubt that some parents would see it as problematic, however. Most of this comes from their aversion to paganism and their unwillingness to be seen to be celebrating pagan culture. Many such parents come from a culture which would see this as lucicrous beyoned being able to see the joke in it. Who is right? There is no hard and fast answer.

In short, many Muslims can and do participate in Halloween festivities here. It is not in itself a question of Islam vs Western culture, this spans more religions than Islam. I think it was Thaedyal who mentioned some other religioins whose followers may find Hallowe'en celebrations in bad taste.

JC 2K3

But surely the hardcore,anti-everything-but-Muslim-traditions Muslims wouldn't send their children to normal school where Halloween and Christmas etc. are celebrated.

InFront

Im sure "hardcore anti-everything but-Muslim-traditions" Muslims as you say, are extremely rare phenomena... I fail to see what relevance they have to the topic and I dont know where they send their children tbh.

Captain Trips

Hobbes wrote:

Integration works both ways. Should we force muslim children to celebrate halloween if there parents don't want to? How about making Jewish children celebrate christmas? How about Catholic children being forced to celebrate hanukkah or Eid ul-Fitr?

Should 99% of the population which has been here for thousands of years change in a decade to accomodate a tiny minority? Nobody is making anybody do anything, unlike in several other countries or dictatorships.

Or should the tiny minority actually try and integrate and not bitch about e.g., not being able to go watch child camel jockeys, or something else that *I* am offended by.

What's next? Banning alcohol because it offends Muslims? Who the hell is supposed to be integrating with who, here?

When in Rome, etc., .

PoleStar

InFront

Im not sure if my reply was unclear or perhaps you misunderstood what I am saying as you seem to both dissagree and agree at the same time.

Firstly with regard to Saudi, I am not confusing nationality and religion and the first thing I said was that this was an extreme example. But following on from what you said about integration:

If we ban all celebrations of festivities such as Halloween, Christmas etc for fear of offending our resident non-nationals, this will actually have the oppoiste effect of denying them the oppourtunity to actually learn something about us and aid their integration and understanding of our culture. If we go down the road of extreme political correctnessw we will have different nationalities who know nothing of each other.

Taking the example of the UK where imiigrant populations have become increasingly isolated from the British people, we can see the effect it has had on the increasing rate of race-hate crimes. Even British born non-caucasians now do not see themselves as British. I feel this will be the consequence if we allow this ridiculous notion of "political correctness" to keep escalating.

bonkey

PoleStar wrote:

Even British born non-caucasians now do not see themselves as British.

Some.

You forgot the word some, as in "Even some British-born non-caucasians...."

bonkey

Captain Trips wrote:

Who the hell is supposed to be integrating with who, here?

We are all supposed to be integrating the hell together.

Its not "they integrate into our society", nor "we integrate into theirs". Integration is a two way process.

InFront

PoleStar wrote:

Firstly with regard to Saudi, I am not confusing nationality and religion

If we ban all celebrations of festivities such as Halloween, Christmas etc for fear of offending our resident non-nationals, this will actually have the oppoiste effect of denying them the oppourtunity to actually learn something

Do you see the contradiction in those quotes? Who is speaking about non nationals here? What about the Irish muslim? Now Im not coming out in favour of someone who objects to kids dressing up and playing fetch the apple or whatever with their classmates during schooltime. It's harmless fun and it means nothing (it doesnt even extend to the point of cultural enrichment in my opinion)
However, if some people were to have a problem with Hallowe'en, or any other native-religious celebrations for religious reasons, and if those concerns were valid enough, then I hope the teacher would use his or her discretion on how to conduct the celebrations as he or she saw fit. Teachers tend to be very wise people about this sort of thing.

As bonkey quite rightly suggested, this isn't a question of "them vs us", integration is a two-way-process. That's why it isn't called adaptation.

about us and aid their integration and understanding of our culture. If we go down the road of extreme political correctnessw we will have different nationalities who know nothing of each other...
Even British born non-caucasians now do not see themselves as British. I feel this will be the consequence if we allow this ridiculous notion of "political correctness" to keep escalating.

Leaving aside the point that bonkey correctly raised about the use of thw word "some" in this context, you again seem to be contradicting yourself. You feel that the only way of making these people 'British' (in our own case 'Irish') is by making them adapt wholly to the western way of life? Not only is that a highly impractical and artifical method of living but wouldn't it be far more ideal to have an open, multicultural society than a rigid, almost Aryan-esque society of one 'volk'.
What you are lamenting here is multiculturalism.

JC 2K3

InFront wrote:

Im sure "hardcore anti-everything but-Muslim-traditions" Muslims as you say, are extremely rare phenomena... I fail to see what relevance they have to the topic and I dont know where they send their children tbh.

Muslims who aren't like that wouuld be grand about their children celebrating halloween.

Boston

Hobbes, the point is that children are prevented from celebrating a part of their culture, because children of another culture will not/can not take part. That seems pretty poor to me.

Nevyn

But it can be hard to draw the line between catholic relgion and culture in this country.
Funny that they have stopped the kids dressing up in class for hollow'een but yet they still teach all of the children christmas carols.

If the children don't dress up in school for hollow'een what of it,
there are many other ways for them to celebrate it at home and in thier communities.

There are celebrations that mine children take part in that have no connection to the school at all.

the_syco

I suppose Halloween could insult many religons, such as the Christians, Msulims, etc, with it being a "pagan" event, and all.

IMO, they came here, they should get used to some of our wacky customs, just as we should get used to some of their wacky customs.

Sure, I can't think of many places that celebrate an event where, once a year, light big fires, dress up, and go begging house to house for "goodies", whilst hoping they scare the occupents.

I view Halloween like going to mass. You can go and enjoy it, or you can stay at home, and not integrate with the community.

JC 2K3

Thaedydal wrote:

But it can be hard to draw the line between catholic relgion and culture in this country.

Halloween has nothing to do with Catholicism...

Thaedydal wrote:

Funny that they have stopped the kids dressing up in class for hollow'een but yet they still teach all of the children christmas carols.

Nice assumption.... Evidence of this?

Thaedydal wrote:

If the children don't dress up in school for hollow'een what of it,
there are many other ways for them to celebrate it at home and in thier communities.

But what if some members of the community are offended? No trick or treating? Halloween is one of the most fun nights to experience as a child.

Thaedydal wrote:

There are celebrations that mine children take part in that have no connection to the school at all.

Are there no schools that cater for your celebrations? If not then I'm afraid you are a victim of democracy.

Hobbes

LiouVille wrote:

Hobbes, the point is that children are prevented from celebrating a part of their culture, because children of another culture will not/can not take part. That seems pretty poor to me.

Again, if you read the article the children are not prevented from celebrating part of their culture. They are just not doing it in school.

Halloween has nothing to do with Catholicism...

Funny enough yes it does. As I recall Halloween was in fact the Samhain and the catholic church absorbed it into their own culture and called it "All Hallows Eve" or Halloween as we now call it (also "All Saints Day").

Kids these days are not celebrating part of Irish culture (unless you mean modern culture) as the whole thing of trick and treating, dressing up and pumpkins etc are an American culture we absorbed.

Just My View

Hobbes wrote:

Funny enough yes it does. As I recall Halloween was in fact the Samhain and the catholic church absorbed it into their own culture and called it "All Hallows Eve" or Halloween as we now call it (also "All Saints Day").

Samhain predates Christianity so any attempt by the church to absorb it has only succeded in perpertuating it, not changing it. All hallowes eve was renamed All Souls Day and naming 1st Nov as All Saints Day was a further attempt to steal the festival from the pre-christians. As usual any pre-christian festival that the church thought it would not be able to eradicate got a christian spin. I don't think that makes it a true christian festival. What about the midwinter festival becoming Christmas?

Hobbes wrote:

Kids these days are not celebrating part of Irish culture (unless you mean modern culture) as the whole thing of trick and treating, dressing up and pumpkins etc are an American culture we absorbed.

While the commercialism is truly American, the idea of dressing up was to disguise yourself from the Puca and the other evil spirits abroad that night. Going to friends house and enjoying thir hospitality instrad of being home was a way of hiding from the spirits when they came to your house looking for you. Going from friend to friend was probably a mixture of hiding more cleverly and a social visitation eveolved from that. If you really think about it the American brought it with them from here, added local slants like the pumpkins, intead of turnips, carved into lanterns and the gltzy commercialism has crept in. Much of this was influenced by Hallowee'en movies etc all horror, all evil, all about malicious and malevolent spirits.
Hollowe'en is definitely NOTAmerican. It is a true Celtic festival and we should keep it. If the Muslims or anybody else don't like it, tough. We don't go to their country and tell you to drop their tales of djinn etc so leave our traditions alone thanks very much.

Hobbes

Samhain is the Celtic festival, not Halloween.

All Hallows Eve + All Souls day are Catholic holidays.

And while dressing up is an old custom in Ireland it does not stem from the original Samhain.

Everyone goes on about "Our culture" but Halloween is a good example of how "Our Culture" is always changing. We share very little of Halloween with the original Samhain.

JC 2K3

Hobbes wrote:

Funny enough yes it does. As I recall Halloween was in fact the Samhain and the catholic church absorbed it into their own culture and called it "All Hallows Eve" or Halloween as we now call it (also "All Saints Day").

Indeed, attending mass/religious ceremonies on Oct. 31st and Nov. 1st would be a Catholic thing, but Halloween in itself is a fusion of Celtic, Roman, Christian and (nowadays) American traditions. There is no religious bias and it is only a bit of purely secular fun for kids.

Hobbes wrote:

Kids these days are not celebrating part of Irish culture (unless you mean modern culture) as the whole thing of trick and treating, dressing up and pumpkins etc are an American culture we absorbed.

The Celts dressed up on Samhain. The Ancient Romans collected fruit and nuts on Pomonia. The name "trick or treating" was given to it by the Americans and pumpkins are indeed an American thing, but the roots of Halloween are in our Celtic culture, even if we do celebrate a commercialised, somewhat Americanised version of it today.

Boston

Hobbes wrote:

Again, if you read the article the children are not prevented from celebrating part of their culture. They are just not doing it in school.

I understand that. But where do you draw a line, should celebrating any and all cultures be forbidden in a school environment? You stop kids celebrating halloween in school, why not stop christmas and easter being celebrated as well?

Isn't one of the roles of education to expose kids to new ideas, and as part of that new cultures.

I wonder how in favour you are of banning religious symbols in all schools. Isn't the same thing, excluding children.

Hobbes

LiouVille wrote:

I understand that. But where do you draw a line, should celebrating any and all cultures be forbidden in a school environment? You stop kids celebrating halloween in school, why not stop christmas and easter being celebrated as well?

Yes why not? Why shouldn't there be a seperation of church and state? If anything Ireland is a prime example of its history as to why we should have seperation of church and state.

Halloween is a Christian holiday based on pagan history. Samhain is a pagan one. Why would a parent want thier children to be forced to celebrate religious holidays that don't match up with theirs?

Isn't one of the roles of education to expose kids to new ideas, and as part of that new cultures.

There is a difference between teaching kids what Halloween is and celebrating it in school.

I wonder how in favour you are of banning religious symbols in all schools. Isn't the same thing, excluding children.

Religious symbols on a child I don't have an issue with. Trying to preach to other children in the school I would have a deal with. But then I don't see how that precludes kids from schoolwork unless the teacher is refusing to teach them.

Just My View

This is not a seperation of Church and State topic.
Nobody ever objected to this celebration before so that is not the issue.
Now the muslims come along and we are all to dance to their tune.
Thanks, but no thanks.

Nevyn

My children are nominally pagan,
thier classes did discuss hollow'een and it's tradiations and historys and touched on the different harvest festivale from around the world.
Thier classes did not dress up this Hollow'een, there are no muslim children in thier classes but there are born again christians, mormon and jevovah's witnesses children in thier class who would not have been able to take part so
none of the children dressed up this year.

I am totally ok with that, my children didn't mind they celebrated at home as they usually do.

But there should be even handedness and fair play, the turn about being my children are being taughts christmas carols.

As for being a victim of democracy I would love a referendum on the rights of the child to include the making illegal the indoctrination of children which happens due to the lack of non demonintioal or multidenominational school in this country.

This really is not about muslim children in our schools; it is about non catholic children in our school the vast majoirty of which have a catholic ethos.

As for what is {i] Irish[/i] culure well it will grow and change has it always has.
The chinese new year is being celebrate more and more here each year, which considering the large asain popultion that has been in this country for the last 40 years is not surprising.
Why should there not be Diwali taught about in school as well and Hanukkah for we have a jewish part of our population as well for over the last 100 years.

We are a multicultral society and it is somthing that we should have faced up to long before now.
We should have christmas/yule/diwali/hanukkah cards in our shops.
We should not expect everyone to have the same traditions and beliefs.

Boston

Hobbes wrote:

Yes why not? Why shouldn't there be a seperation of church and state? If anything Ireland is a prime example of its history as to why we should have seperation of church and state.

It took awhile but I finally got this out of yea. In ireland we don't have separation of church and state, as such it is hypocricy to ban on religious event and not others.

Halloween is a Christian holiday based on pagan history. Samhain is a pagan one. Why would a parent want thier children to be forced to celebrate religious holidays that don't match up with theirs?

Forced is a strong word in this context. In the same way you said kids are free to celebrate holloween at home, kids, whose parents do not wishing the celebrate it, can be catered for though other means. However the crux of problem was the desire not to have one set of kids exlcuded from activities the other kids took part in.

You know we're not even really disagreeing here, I just believe in calling a spade a spade, and dislike the half measure bull**** this strikes we as. Pretending there is separation of church and state, when the fact remains that easter and christmas and probably a half dozen other events specific to one or another cultures/religions will be celebrated.