Why is it so offensive to ask a lesbian if she's a lesbian?

Aoife-FM104

Hi

I got in a fight a few days ago because I asked a lesbian if she was a lesbian. We had been talking for a while, and I thought I should ask her.

She was actually a lesbian, but I wasn't 100% sure.

She got extremely angry and wanted to fight with me!

I hear this is common (maybe not the fighting, but the getting angry.)

Does anyone know why this is?

Huggles

If someone asked you if you where hetero how would you feel? A little put out that they should ask such a personal question?

Sexuality is really nonones business and I am amused to find out your exact words.

Aoife-FM104

TheGooner wrote:

If someone asked you if you where hetero how would you feel? A little put out that they should ask such a personal question?

Sexuality is really nonones business and I am amused to find out your exact words.

But that's just not true.

When straight people are asked if they're straight they don't get angry. At worst, it's mild confusion.

Gay men generally don't get angry if someone asks if they're gay.

This seems to be quite specific to lesbians.

And is it really a personal question? When you dress butch and make an effort to look butch, you're not exactly trying to hide your sexual persuasion...

Huggles

I'm not a lesbian myself but i do know a couple and I don't think there is ever a conscious effort to look butch. But thats a whole other convo tbh.

What exactly did you say to her? If someone asked you if you where a lesbian how would you react?

I really do think its a very personal question especially if you think this person (I am guessing a stranger) is gay, it is their choice whether or not to disclose that about themselves to you.

I'm kind of mortified for you tbh.

Aoife-FM104

If someone asked if I was a lesbian I would laugh!

Why is it such a personal question though?

If I was a straight man, and a gay man started talking to me, I would ask if he is gay.

If a girl starts talking to me, and I think she is a lesbian, it is fair to ask...

Straight people have absolutely no problem with people knowing they're straight. If lesbians really want to become "a normal part of society" (silly phrase, I know) wouldn't it make sense to not make such a deal about being a lesbian?

Huggles

I get your point but i think its a very personal question.

You still haven't answerd with what your exact words where....what was teh situation was she chatting you up or something?

Aoife-FM104

Yeah we both got chatting outside a bar.

Can't remember my exact question but it was something straight forward like, "Are you a lesbian?"

Goodshape

'tis a bit of a personal question alright, but I personally wouldn't get too upset if someone asked if I were gay. In most circumstances anyway.

Tbh, I'd probably prefer if they asked me out right, rather than tip-toeing around it and gossiping with others about their 'suspicions' later on.

Stephanos

TheGooner wrote:

If someone asked you if you where hetero how would you feel? A little put out that they should ask such a personal question?

Sexuality is really nonones business and I am amused to find out your exact words.

Why in this forum is the same illogical tripe always hashed out? It is so engrained in the Boards LGBT forum. Asking someone if they are gay is nothing like asking someone if they are straight. Firstly you are more likely to ask someone if they are gay because it is not the "norm".

Some gay men do get insulted if you asked if they are gay for the simple reason that some gay men don't like the idea they are camp. I am sure you would hate to think that someone has you, or what they consider the majority of you, all sussed out as soon as they meet you. I know I get a little bit hurt when someone says to me "well you are obviously gay". I feel like saying "well yes but there is a whole lot more to me".

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Yeah we both got chatting outside a bar.

Can't remember my exact question but it was something straight forward like, "Are you a lesbian?"

I do agree that it is a personal question but I do it the whole time when I am in gay bars. When one is in a gay bar it is relatively safe to assume that there is a good chance that the person is gay. I think the girl's anger at you asking the question is more a reflection on her than it is you. She might not be out very long or might have some issues with her sexuality. While it is a personal question it is not the most offensive thing to ask.

Boston

Stephanos wrote:

Some gay men do get insulted if you asked if they are gay for the simple reason that some gay men don't like the idea they are camp. I am sure you would hate to think that someone has you, or what they consider the majority of you, all sussed out as soon as they meet you. I know I get a little bit hurt when someone says to me "well you are obviously gay". I feel like saying "well yes but there is a whole lot more to me".

I think this is more it, then anything else. People don't like to think they are a walking talking stereotype.


That said It is a personal question, and annoying as hell when people feel they've a fight to an ask questions like that. It's nothing liek asking if someone is straight, because few people see anything wrong with being straight.

CiaranC

Its all a bit confusing really. On one hand, we have the 'out, loud and proud' gay people having carnivals down the street to let us know they are gay, and on the other we have gay people who are deeply offended at the public suggestion that they might be gay, like its anyones business.

Couldnt we have some kind of handbook on whats acceptable?

azezil

I'd regard that as a personal question myself, however if I'd gotten talking to someone outside a pub and they asked if I was gay, assuming I found the guy attractive, I'd be hopeful that he was gay... it'd just be embarressing if he wasn't!

Boston

CiaranC wrote:

Its all a bit confusing really. On one hand, we have the 'out, loud and proud' gay people having carnivals down the street to let us know they are gay, and on the other we have gay people who are deeply offended at the public suggestion that they might be gay, like its anyones business.

Couldnt we have some kind of handbook on whats acceptable?

Wowwy people are different.

On the one hand you've got the straights who think all gays are up in there faces, and on the other you've got the straights asking gays a shed load of questions.

MicraBoy

I think it's a personal question, which like most personal questions you should have the cop on not to ask a stranger, unless you are trying to pull them.

Aoife-FM104

When you are chatting to someone, how is it so different to asking them what they work as? Is it a "shame" thing? Deep down they are ashamed or uncomfortable about people knowing they're a lesbian?

azezil

No I'd say its more a fear of being lead down an ally and having the **** kicked outta you...

Boston

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

When you are chatting to someone, how is it so different to asking them what they work as? Is it a "shame" thing? Deep down they are ashamed or uncomfortable about people knowing they're a lesbian?

I can see why she got angry, you're being very obtuse about this.

Its none of your business. Most women I know would take great offense being questioned about aspects of their sexuality by stangers.

MicraBoy

When you are chatting to someone, how is it so different to asking them what they work as? Is it a "shame" thing? Deep down they are ashamed or uncomfortable about people knowing they're a lesbian?

Believe it or not some people do get very defensive about the job they work in.

Anywho the analogy isn't accurate IMHO. Questions about sex or sexuality are not classed in the same bracket as general chit chat. Asking about her sexuality is more akin to asking does she like to have sex outdoors, than asking what she works at. With some people you'll get away with it, with others you won't. It's one of those questions you need to weigh up and see is it appropriate or not.

The whole other side is why you needed to know. Was it in any way relevent to you or the conversation? Or was she yapping away, while in your head all you could hear was yourself going "I wonder is she a lesbian? I must know if she is a lesbian!"

Aoife-FM104

OK but you see this is what I'm trying to get at -

Straight people (generally) don't give a damn, and neither do gay guys. The angry reaction seems to be specific to lesbians.

I am not the only person who thinks this!!

monkey tennis

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

The angry reaction seems to be specific to lesbians.

It is?

Exactly how many lesbians have tried to fight you because you asked whether they were a lesbian? Sounds more like this is specific to a small number of people, if you ask me.

Either way, it's a bit of an odd thing to ask someone in casual conversation. If a girl asks me if I'm a lesbian because she's interested in me, that makes sense. If she's straight, I don't see how/why it should concern her.

(I've never started a fight with someone because of them asking me if I'm a lesbian by the way, but I would make it clear if I found it an odd/intrusive question to ask)

Boston

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

OK but you see this is what I'm trying to get at -
and neither do gay guys.

Thats not true. Some care, some don't.

Huggles

LiouVille wrote:

I can see why she got angry, you're being very obtuse about this.

Its none of your business. Most women I know would take great offense being questioned about aspects of their sexuality by stangers.

Very well said. Aoife your coming across kinda rude about this, like its your God given right to know.

Annasopra

Actually Aoife - I wouldn't agree with you that gay men don't get angry or upset. I remember fighting with someone when they asked me.

I think there are a few reasons

1. The person may be not fully out
2. The person may not fully accept that they are gay
3. The person asking it is being incredibly rude in the way they ask
4. The person may be self conscious about how they are perceived - overly camp, overly butch
5. The person might have internalised homophobia
6. The person might be scared as to why the question is being asked

senordingdong

What if there was 'chatting up involved'? Would it be acceptable then?

monkey tennis

senordingdong wrote:

What if there was 'chatting up involved'? Would it be acceptable then?

It would depend on the person, naturally, but I'd say it would at least be more understandable, if still pretty blunt. Then again, if a girl is specifically chatting up another girl (or a guy chatting up another guy), chances are they're already going to have a fair suspicion that they're gay/bi, in fairness.

Stephanos

I think it can be agreed that it is different with each person and the context in which it was asked.

Aoife-FM104

But but...

I agree it depends on the person, but I'm talking in general, lesbians are waaay more defensive about their sexuality than (for example) hetero people.

It find it sad, really. The lesbian must not be fully happy with herself to react to (I agree, a blunt personal question) with such anger and defensiveness...

Gordon

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

But but...

I agree it depends on the person, but I'm talking in general, lesbians are waaay more defensive about their sexuality than (for example) hetero people.

It find it sad, really. The lesbian must not be fully happy with herself to react to (I agree, a blunt personal question) with such anger and defensiveness...

Woah there! I haven't asked that question myself but I don't think you should assume that they are not happy with themselves. Maybe you have preconceptions about homosexual women that got transferred in the conversation/question and that sparked the ill feeling. Either way, it's a jump to assume that someone is unhappy with themselves because of that question.

Maybe the word lesbian has bad connotations and you should have said 'are you homosexual'? Maybe it's like saying 'Are you a gay' to a guy? I dunno.

Boston

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

But but...

I agree it depends on the person, but I'm talking in general, lesbians are waaay more defensive about their sexuality than (for example) hetero people.

Well yes, as are most Queers regardless of gender.

It find it sad, really. The lesbian must not be fully happy with herself to react to (I agree, a blunt personal question) with such anger and defensiveness...

Tell me, do you muff dive? Come off it. Some people keep their private life private, doesn't mean they are unhappy with it. Theres very few of my close friends with whom I discuss sex and sexuality.

WizZard

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

...and I thought I should ask her.

Why?

Did it matter to you? Would it affect the way you thought about her?

The issue is yours TBH.

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

I hear this is common (maybe not the fighting, but the getting angry.)

Does anyone know why this is?

Why what? That there are misconceptions floating around about people just because of their sexuality, or the fact that you "heard" something and assumed it was true?

monkey tennis

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

It find it sad, really. The lesbian must not be fully happy with herself to react to (I agree, a blunt personal question) with such anger and defensiveness...

Nice little bit of armchair psychology there. I find it sad that you're so put out by the fact that you asked someone a very personal question and got called on it (albeit possibly in an overreactive way) that you have to go onto an internet forum to vent about it. Who are you to question someone else's private life? What business is it of yours whether they're 'happy with themselves'? And why did you feel it was so important to know this woman's sexual preferences?

By the way, the issue of sexuality is of far greater consequence to a lesbian than a straight girl. Your sexuality is probably not a big deal in your life - because it doesn't place you in a minority. You will probably never know what that feels like, so you will never be able to understand how a lesbian feels about her sexuality.

Put yourself in her shoes - imagine if some random stranger asked you out of the blue if you're into BDSM. I'd imagine you'd feel pretty self-conscious, and possibly offended at their nosiness.

Aoife-FM104

For the record, I didn't walk up to a random stranger. She was chatting me up...

It's not the first time I've heard of this. I am sure you all have similar lesbian specific stories.

Not trying to annoy anyone... so your answers that "sexuality is a far greater deal for a lesbian" doesn't need to be said with anger. You're basically agreeing with what I'm saying there!

Huggles

monkey tennis wrote:

Nice little bit of armchair psychology there. I find it sad that you're so put out by the fact that you asked someone a very personal question and got called on it (albeit possibly in an overreactive way) that you have to go onto an internet forum to vent about it. Who are you to question someone else's private life? What business is it of yours whether they're 'happy with themselves'? And why did you feel it was so important to know this woman's sexual preferences?

By the way, the issue of sexuality is of far greater consequence to a lesbian than a straight girl. Your sexuality is probably not a big deal in your life - because it doesn't place you in a minority. You will probably never know what that feels like, so you will never be able to understand how a lesbian feels about her sexuality.

Put yourself in her shoes - imagine if some random stranger asked you out of the blue if you're into BDSM. I'd imagine you'd feel pretty self-conscious, and possibly offended at their nosiness.

This is my post of the year! Well said Monkey

monkey tennis

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

You're basically agreeing with what I'm saying there!

Not quite. You're making sweeping, disparaging statements about hundreds of millions of people (i.e. lesbians everywhere). I'm pointing out that it should be obvious why it's offensive to bluntly ask a lesbian if she's a lesbian.

And I'm not sure where you're getting the 'anger' from, unless you've got that Wikipedia psychology page open again! I wouldn't have thought the mere fact that I disagree with you (and show why in neat point form) would make anyone think I was angry.

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

I am sure you all have similar lesbian specific stories.

Not really. I have stories about certain specific people being assholes, and other certain specific people being nice. I don't have many stories that apply to every member of a particular minority group. This is part of my point - this one single lesbian is no more a spokeswoman for every lesbian than you are for every straight woman.

Also, if this woman was indeed chatting you up, wasn't it obvious enough from that that she was a lesbian/bi?

senordingdong

monkey tennis wrote:

It would depend on the person, naturally, but I'd say it would at least be more understandable, if still pretty blunt. Then again, if a girl is specifically chatting up another girl (or a guy chatting up another guy), chances are they're already going to have a fair suspicion that they're gay/bi, in fairness.

I guess, but I would consider myself to be a straight to the point guy, and I wouldn't want to offend anyone. But if a guy was chatting to me at a pub or something, and I thought he might have thought that I was gay and he was chatting me up, I would ask him. Just to clear the air, I don't see why he should get offended...also to be considered is that it would be rude to allow someone of the opposite sexuality chat you up and you never tell them that you are not of their sexuality.

Another such example would be if I was chatting up a gay girl and she didn't realise it or didn't want to tell me to **** off. Or she was not a straight to the point kinda gal.
I mean, obviously you don't just parade around a bar asking these questions, but if these scenarios took place, I would ask, and I would be shocked if I got the response the OP got.

Aoife-FM104

I live very near George's Street, (and we drink there, in Hogan's) so it's not uncommon we get talking to lesbians.

I am yet to meet a lesbian who doesn't have some kind of "how dare you suggest I'm a lesbian!" thing going on.

As I said, it may be personal, but to get so angry?

It's not normal to get so angry at personal questions.

By saying "it's none of my business" or "how would I like it" etc is avoiding the issue.

IN GENERAL (!!!) gay men don't react like this. Straight people certainly don't. Lesbians GENERALLY do.

I understand you guys want to stick up for your own, but surely you don't really believe wanting a scrap is somehow my fault?

Boston

I would not be comfortable with answering those questions from a stranger. Simple as. Some people lash out when they feel you've backed them into a cornor, regardless fo your intent.

All that said, maybe you're coming up against some mega "chip on the auld shoulder" lesbians. These women would be likely to have started a fight about anything, or maybe they are upset at the rejection of your advances.

Annasopra

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

I am yet to meet a lesbian who doesn't have some kind of "how dare you suggest I'm a lesbian!" thing going on.

Are you serioulsy suggesting every single lesbian you've ever met is like this?

Aoife-FM104

Johnnymcg wrote:

Are you serioulsy suggesting every single lesbian you've ever met is like this?

Yes! They've all been like this. I'm not saying eveyr lesbian is, just the ones I've met.

Have you really never heard of this before? Lesbians who get overly aggressive and defensive at this kind of thing?

Anyway, I don't want to be bothering people, so if I'm being too un-PC we can close the topic...

Stark

You just need to me more diplomatic than "Are you a dyke like?" I reckon. Like maybe asking are they there with friends or something and deducing from there.

Vegeta

This is complete bullsh1t!

If you strike up a conversation with a polite stranger who asks you, in a genuine, curious and pleasant manner "What is your gender preference?" You'd want to be a complete d1ckhead to get angry and defensive.

On the other hand if an ignorant tool who asks the same question but in a manner which implies there is something wrong with being hetro or homo, well then you can tell them to piss off.

I also don't believe it a personal question. Sexuality makes up so much of who everybody is, if it didn't would there even need to be discussions like this. Calling it a personal question implies you keep your sexuality private. If you kiss a someone (be they opposite or same sex) in public you are sending a signal (probably not intentionally) about sexual preference.

I don't like people with the attitude of "I'll kiss somone in public, i'll march in a parade, i'll have kids and wear a wedding band but don't you dare ask me about my sexuality"

People display so many signs of their sexuality publiclly but then get offended if the public ask them to confirm it. That's complete sh1te.

monkey tennis

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

It's not normal to get so angry at personal questions.

Who are you to decide what's normal? And who are you to decide to what degree a personal question is acceptable? It's not black and white, there is not a neat line between 'vaguely personal' and 'deeply personal' - every individual will feel differently about various personal questions. The fact that you don't find someone inquiring about your sexual orientation doesn't give you the right to dictate what other people can find offensive or not. Again, would you like someone asking if you were into BDSM? I doubt you'd find it appropriate if a man asked you 'do you suck dick' in casual conversation, but it's something I've seen (heard?) in the gay scene. Some people find it perfectly fine, others would find it unacceptable.

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

By saying "it's none of my business" or "how would I like it" etc is avoiding the issue.

I think we're in disagreement over what 'the issue' is then. You seem to think the 'issue' is that someone overreacted to a question that you deem inoffensive. I think that the issue also includes your idea that your opinion of what constitutes a personal question, or what kind of personal question might be offensive, is FACT and not to be challenged by the person on the receiving end of the question. Again, this woman's idea of an acceptable personal question clearly differs from yours, and you're acting as though she's automatically the one in the wrong. I'm trying to get you to see things from her point of view.

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

I understand you guys want to stick up for your own

I don't know that anyone is 'sticking up for their own' - I don't know this woman personally for example, and I don't feel responsible for lesbians everywhere. But I do think it's odd that you believe that you have the god-given right to ask possibly deeply personal questions (again, a matter of perspective) of someone (not mentioning gender or sexuality) without them getting upset.

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

if I'm being too un-PC we can close the topic...

Now who's avoiding the issue... <--- little smiley to show that this is a joke and all is well so I don't get accused of being a raging, overreactive biker dyke...

MicraBoy

Vegeta wrote:

If you strike up a conversation with a polite stranger who asks you, in a genuine, curious and pleasant manner "What is your gender preference?" You'd want to be a complete d1ckhead to get angry and defensive.

I kind of agree. Or it could just be on of the things johnnymcg mentioned also. I think the point is that if you can't see that this is not totally black and white then you are also kinda of a d1ckhead too.

The thing I suspect is that Aoife's manner isn't all that genuine, curious and pleasant. She seems somewhat obstinate. After all, inspite of running into trouble more than once with this she continues to ask about people's sexuality. Clearly it may take a hiding for her to cop on and use some subtler means.

Boston

Vegeta wrote:

I don't like people with the attitude of "I'll kiss somone in public, i'll march in a parade, i'll have kids and wear a wedding band but don't you dare ask me about my sexuality"

You really need to realise that "The Gay" isn't a single creature. Stop talking like what your saying applies straight accross the board. People have a right to privacy, why should they have to open up their private life to questiosn and answers just because they hold hands or whatever?

Shellie13

Sorry quick q OP...are you a lesbian urself?...Im lost here-cos if you are it seems like it was a kinda "can i pull you" type thing, if you're not it seems like a "is it ok to hug you or will i turn you on?"...
Ye i know that seems really narrowminded but people are that narrow minded every day on the street- and unless you know someone well or met in a situation where you feel comfortable asking thise kinda questions you can be taken up all wrong by the person^^

DoesNotCompute

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Hi

I got in a fight a few days ago because I asked a lesbian if she was a lesbian. We had been talking for a while, and I thought I should ask her.

She was actually a lesbian, but I wasn't 100% sure.

She got extremely angry and wanted to fight with me!

I hear this is common (maybe not the fighting, but the getting angry.)

Does anyone know why this is?

She's probably just angry in general. I wouldn't be insulted if someone asked me if I'm straight (which I am).

Boston

DoesNotCompute wrote:

She's probably just angry in general. I wouldn't be insulted if someone asked me if I'm straight (which I am).

This thread makes my head hurt, percisely because of the above. Do you honestly think hetrosexuality inherently carries with it the same baggage as homosexuality?

Just look at this thread ffs, theres an expectation that homosexuals should be open, but not too open about their sexuality, discrete by not private, willing to answer questions, but not to question.

I recon in about five questions at the max, I could make almost any hetrosexual uncomfortable talking about their sexuality.

Shellie13

LiouVille wrote:

This thread makes my head hurt, percisely because of the above. Do you honestly think hetrosexuality inherently carries with it the same baggage as homosexuality?

Just look at this thread ffs, theres an expectation that homosexuals should be open, but not too open about their sexuality, discrete by not private, willing to answer questions, but not to question.

I recon in about five questions at the max, I could make almost any hetrosexual uncomfortable talking about their sexuality.

Intricate details maybe... But a meer question outside a pub... Like i can get someone being a bit hidden or defensive if they're having trouble figuring it out for themselfs are arent ready to tell people...but if someone appears open...
And threatening to fight...ffs!!!

Sexuality isnt the whole person but its a huge part (for most people anyway!)
It dosnt seem to be something overly private imo... I mean think of the role discussioon of that topic plays in everyday life...I've seen girls who are practially strangers to each other "bond" while discussing the "hot guys"...
Theres a differnece in just enquirying if some one is a lesbian and an entire inquesition!

That said hearing someone you dont know ask you that randomly can indeed get your back up- It shouldnt but depending on experiance it does!

Boston

It's been my experience that the farther away from the norms wrt sex and sexuality people get, the more private people become away those issues. I guess people preempt a poor reaction

monkey tennis

Shellie13 wrote:

Sorry quick q OP...are you a lesbian urself?

Ha, I've never met the OP, but just from this thread, I can GUARANTEE you she's not a lesbian! (unless she's trying to do a devil's advocate kind of thing)

claire h

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

For the record, I didn't walk up to a random stranger. She was chatting me up...

There ya go. Some girl is talking to you, possibly trying to chat you up, possibly just being friendly, and you asking "are you a lesbian?" is you making an assumption that she's chatting you up (obviously none of us can know whether she was or wasn't, but if she *was*, you wouldn't have needed to ask). You asking "are you a lesbian?" is saying that you perceive her as coming on to you, that you're not comfortable with her coming on to you, that you're not interested in her or other women in general, that you see her as Different (because you needed her to specify her sexual orientation). Wouldn't you be a teensy bit uncomfortable if you were the person who was maybe only being friendly, or maybe taking a chance on talking to someone you were interested only to be brushed off like that?