Poker in the CV

sikes

Im in my final year of Computer Science and in the middle of doing my CV. I am applying to various banks and investment houses in the UK. I would have assumed that poker would be a good hobby for such a job, however i am unsure whether to put it in my cv.

What are peoples thoughts on putting poker into your cv?

i believe that many of the skills in poker are valid in banking. eg risk management

any help much appreciated.

(Im not applying for an IT job, but as a trader)

Aoife-FM104

Well it's ok to put it in your hobby section, but it's defo a bad "skill" to have.

Employers don't want gamblers... they want people who'll do what they're told. Especially in banks.

Kinetic^

Yeah defo not a good thing. Also those of you applying for mortgages do not have payments to online bookies/poker sites going in and out of your bank on the bank statements you apply with.

sikes

clearly chance is involved in poker, thats the risk element. but the very nature of investment banking, you are taking risks. its how you manage the risk that counts. poker teaches you many skills one being risk management.

anyway thats not the reason i posted and dont want to get into this debate. Obviously poker has no room in my CV if i am going for a job as a sound engineer or something, however in this instance banking may like poker skills and might be something they look for. I have heard that it is, though need more opinions.

all of which are welcome so cheers for the replies. i dont want to screw this up!

cormie

I wouldn't do it. Most people don't understand poker or the skills involved in it and they just see it as a gamblers game so the chances are, whoever is reading your CV will have that opinion too:(

BuffyBot

To be honest, if a CV came across my desk with it listed on it, I'd be raising an eyebrow

sikes

BuffyBot wrote:

To be honest, if a CV came across my desk with it listed on it, I'd be raising an eyebrow

good thing, right?

and what type of questions would you be asking? as long as i got across the skills it has taught me and shown that it has never become a *problem* that has hindered my work, then i think its all gold...maybe!

Aoife-FM104

Yeah even the fact that they put it on their CV would make me suspicious... that perhaps they are immature and don't understand a CV is supposed to give the image of you being professional etc.

And the reality is poker IS gambling. Gambling is when you might be up or down money at the end of the night. Banks don't want gamblers. They wouldn't even consider poker as a skill for the job...

subway

i can see you rationale in putting it on the cv,
but it definietly would be something to talk about in the interview if it was appropriate but not to put in writing.

i dont see how you could quantify playing pokerf into a commodity for an employer.
are you going to print off your account history to show your winnings,
and even then are they going to see that as a benefit.

imo social poker rather than online poker would be a preferable cv skill to have.
there are a hundred more ways to branch from it.
online poker to some people will suggest habitual gambler and worse if their not familiar with online anything.
whereas social real world poker can be brought up as something you like to organise with your mates once a week rather than heading down the pub.
that shows initiative and that your not a chrinic alco either
if the interviewer shows a bit of knowledge about poker etc you can expand on it and it might be something you can use as a familiarising point.

the main thing about hobbies on a cv is not to be too specific, you never know whos going to read your it or what ridicluous question they might ask that shags your chances of getting the job

seamus

Probably not a good thing to put on your CV. Up there with "socialising" and "clubbing" in how it's viewed.

I know of a few managers who've had to discipline employees for coming in late/wrecked because they stayed up playing poker, and didn't really see anything wrong with that.

Aoife-FM104

subway wrote:

are you going to print off your account history to show your winnings,

That's a very good point. Playing poker and actually making money are two very different things...

breadmonkey

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

That's a very good point. Playing poker and actually making money are two very different things...

Well, sikes would defo be a winning player.

stepbar

sikes wrote:

clearly chance is involved in poker, thats the risk element. but the very nature of investment banking, you are taking risks. its how you manage the risk that counts. poker teaches you many skills one being risk management.

O yeah? Big difference risking your "own" money than that of other people. BIG difference........

Sangre

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

And the reality is poker IS gambling. Gambling is when you might be up or down money at the end of the night. Banks don't want gamblers. They wouldn't even consider poker as a skill for the job...

Well if you pointed out it was gambling I could give you a 20 minute spiel about how it wasnt based on eV, pot odds, statistics and game theory.

Doesn't matter if its not a skill, they asked about your hobbies/interests.

I'll be (and have) putting it down on applications to firms for solicitor apprenticeships.

sikes

stepbar wrote:

O yeah? Big difference risking your "own" money than that of other people. BIG difference........

so you think that if i have sat on the fence all my life, with my money in the building society not *risking* it, i would have a better chance at getting the trader job over someone who has successfully played poker?

Just to be clear, i dont play *social* poker. I play at a level where i can go through college without a job. Granted for people who play social poker, or not at all, its out and out gambling. Fair enough. But to people who understand poker there is a clear parallel between it and trading. What i want to know is, if i am applying to the big investment banks, would it be right to assume that the HR people know skills to look for from a wide range of activities such as poker.

Puting poker into my cv for most jobs would be suicide, I know that!

sikes

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Yeah even the fact that they put it on their CV would make me suspicious... that perhaps they are immature and don't understand a CV is supposed to give the image of you being professional etc.

The point of the CV is to sell yourself to the company. Thats what I am trying to do.

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

And the reality is poker IS gambling. Gambling is when you might be up or down money at the end of the night. Banks don't want gamblers. They wouldn't even consider poker as a skill for the job...

Are you saying that traders are not up or down money at the end of the day? Whether we like it or not, traders are gambling in the same sense as good poker players. What traders are looking for is using experience, logic, etc to find a *play* that will yield a positive expected value for their client.

leeroybrown

As Sangre points towards above risk management in financial institutions is based on detailed models and statistical mathematics not poker skills. If I were in your position I wouldn't put it down unless you have specific information to say that someone would like it. I think that it would have an equal chance of turning someone off you as it would of it being a bonus point.

I think that you really need to ask some people in the industry itself if this is viewed as a positive or negative. I would say that it would be 50:50 in favour at best, probably much less when you apply some cleansed HR style screening to a large CV stack. I think that many would be reluctant to even consider it as a factor given banks desire for a whiter-than-white external image.

damnyanks

HR won't look for people with poker skills pure. Thats not to say they may not appreciate it, but it will never be a requirment.

2 the nature of trading (not investment banking which is a different area) isn't so much as to take a risk a la the lovely films in the world and what not. If you work at an investment bank you are providing services to your clients who could for instance be the likes of rabo direct buying in bulk. Your risk is always managed and monitored by various different teams. Of course you do get pension funds and so on buying from you.

If you have to ask is something worth putting on your CV you are already recognizing the fact that it may not be a wise move to make. If you potentially have a career in poker go for that or research the land of the markets. In any case you've missed out on most of the milkrounds for the major players or it is fast approaching the deadline in which case most of the positions have already been filled. I had my first sets of interviews at the end of August! They're incredibly anal.

sikes

damnyanks wrote:

HR won't look for people with poker skills pure. Thats not to say they may not appreciate it, but it will never be a requirment.

2 the nature of trading (not investment banking which is a different area) isn't so much as to take a risk a la the lovely films in the world and what not. If you work at an investment bank you are providing services to your clients who could for instance be the likes of rabo direct buying in bulk. Your risk is always managed and monitored by various different teams. Of course you do get pension funds and so on buying from you.

If you have to ask is something worth putting on your CV you are already recognizing the fact that it may not be a wise move to make. If you potentially have a career in poker go for that or research the land of the markets. In any case you've missed out on most of the milkrounds for the major players or it is fast approaching the deadline in which case most of the positions have already been filled. I had my first sets of interviews at the end of August! They're incredibly anal.

Deadline aint quite there yet! Cheers for the reply. I know its a risky idea putting it down, however, i think it may swing a job my way if i can discuss it in a interview. And i dont want to bring it up in an interview having not put it on my cv.

I really gotta hit the sack, will check back in the morning. Thanks for all the replies, keep them coming.

damnyanks

sikes wrote:

Deadline aint quite there yet! Cheers for the reply. I know its a risky idea putting it down, however, i think it may swing a job my way if i can discuss it in a interview. And i dont want to bring it up in an interview having not put it on my cv.

I really gotta hit the sack, will check back in the morning. Thanks for all the replies, keep them coming.

Poker on your CV will not swing you an interview unless its a very small and desperate place. At worst it will be something that stops you from getting an interview, at most it will be something that that you can talk about with someone at the interview.

Usually the first stage is pretty generic, they get all the people who have displayed the various qualities they require (Top second level scores, good degree's from good universities on a good course, and seems like a social type).

So in Ireland's case from what I know, Trinity, UCD and DCU are "targetted" universities but thats only particular to the place I worked. In trading you are looking at very small figures for recruits, an example is a friend of mine did an internship at the place I worked - out of 2 different product groups (Equity + Credit) they only took 1 intern on full time in total as positions are that limited. If you are serious about pursueing this sort of career I think you are really focusing on the wrong questions.

You should of been aiming to get your application our a lot earlier. You should also be at the stage where these sort of questions have long been answered.

Lehmen brothers and Deutche bank closed their applications yesterday or close today. Like I said, you are hitting the deadline. Very few of the bigger guys sit around and wait for the deadline pass to start handing out jobs. Potentially all of them have been handed out already.

DublinWriter

BuffyBot wrote:

To be honest, if a CV came across my desk with it listed on it, I'd be raising an eyebrow

Me too. It would be like someone putting down 'Drinking' as a hobby. There's honest and there's too honest. Most likely the bank will think that you'll develop some sort of gambling problem in the future and would be a liability.

I generally leave out all hobbies on my own CV.

Gurgle

subway wrote:

i can see you rationale in putting it on the cv,
but it definietly would be something to talk about in the interview if it was appropriate but not to put in writing.

I think thats the way to go.
The first person to see your CV will be in HR and putting poker in there will be a one-way ticket to the bin.
When you get as far as an interview, you're going to be face to face with someone who knows whats involved in the job. You can bring it up with some reference to ups and downs in the investment market and how when you play scientifically you don't get burned.

sikes

DublinWriter wrote:

Me too. It would be like someone putting down 'Drinking' as a hobby. There's honest and there's too honest. Most likely the bank will think that you'll develop some sort of gambling problem in the future and would be a liability.

I generally leave out all hobbies on my own CV.

as has been said, i believe this is true for most jobs and am only considering putting it in for the banking application for reasons specified above. If you work in HR in banking, than i would appreciate if you say so in your post, however your post added nothing new to the debate apart from snide comments that show a complete ignorance to the topic being discussed.

I believe Personal Intertests are a major part of any cv.

Cheers for the comments Damyanks, I am applying late as it is a kind of after thought as a friend got offered a position and is trying to sell the idea to me!

BuffyBot

If you work in HR in banking, than i would appreciate if you say so in your post

I have worked in banking, and have recruited within that industry. Not that it makes observations more/less valid.

Aoife-FM104

What age are you sikes?

Do you think a 40 year old would put poker on his CV? If not, why not?

sikes

BuffyBot wrote:

I have worked in banking, and have recruited within that industry. Not that it makes observations more/less valid.

Clearly anyone who has any experience recruiting within banking has a more valid opinion than someone who is stopping by and making a snide comment. Wouldn't you?

I would assume then that you would have known guidelines for skills to look for when hiring and as such you would know if poker had ever come up in this context. Has it?

Im 21 and am applying for a graduate job. A 40 year old wouldn't be applying for this job, because its a graduate job aimed at people who the banks can mould into their way of thinking. What I am trying to do is make myself more appealing to the banks over the thousands of other students applying.

Its certainly a risk, so I may put it in a couple and leave it out of a few and see what happens. Thanks for all the constructive replies.

Aoife-FM104

I don't think people are making snide comments, they just think it's silly to put it on the CV.

As someone who works in recruitment (not HR though), it is best to play it safe. Suit and tie for the interview, nothing weird on the CV, nothing abnormal said in the interview...

Companies want zombies, not people with personality or risk takers...

sikes

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Companies want zombies, not people with personality or risk takers...

I agree and thats why i would never dream of putting it in if i was applying for another other job bar a trading type job. This job is all about risk.

Anyway my mind is made up now for definite, its going to go into 40% of applications, and we see what the score is after!!!

the snide comment remark was made regarding DublinWriters post.

Paul S

Well I do work in Hr and although I do take your points on board Sikes I still would definately not put it on your CV. Hr departments often don't have the foresight to analyse CVs in the way that you hope the will. A Hr department will see poker and it will scream to them Gambler + Risk = no thank you. A manager of a sales division however may see it in a completely different light and think, poker player, knows how to bluff, money driven, Yeh I'll interview him.
Its admittedly a downfall of many HR departments and in my honest opinion they shouldn;t be involved in initial screening. That duty should fall to the heads of the particular department that is recruiting. they know exactly what they are looking for and could sift through CV relatively quickly, sorting the good from the bad.
HR tend to have a more boxed view on CV's ie. their are Do's and Don'ts. They tend not to think outside the box when it comes to application of hobbies to work skills, and only examine them to see that you have some sort of social skills, team playing skills, or have had the determination to succeed in certain areas.
In the banking industry, as earlier pointed out, risk management is based on detailed models and statistical mathematics not poker skills. I think you should really bare that in mind. Its the exact same in the gambling industry (ie. behind the scenes in any major bookies, Paddy P's, Lad's, Boyles.) The guys working in these departments are working of mathematical probability, previous stats and a very very low element of risk. 75-80% of them have mathematical or statistical qualifications. Granted if you are applying for a job in Paddy P's it would be of interest to say you play their online poker as it shows you have an interest in their products and the gaming industry but as regards relevance to the position their is very little.
As I said I can understand your intentions in putting this on your CV but I think you should definatley consider the type of institution you are applying to and see is it really worth the risk of having a HR department look at it and throw it out straight away. Surely you have other strengths that you could focus in on to get passed the initial acceptance stage. After that if you still feel you want to bring up the issue of poker then you can easily work it into an interview scenario by pointing out that you didn;t have to work through college at all, instead made money at cards.

StSig

Some companies definitely value poker as a skill.

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/business/15832586.htm

They actively recruit poker players and host a poker tournament specifically to assess candidates.

In that company and another trading company that I know, a lot of the interview questions are about poker. They also have poker training a few nights a week for all junior traders.

Depends what sort of job you're going for within an investment bank though I suppose.

Aoife-FM104

I think it's clear the OP came here wanting people to tell him it's a good idea. He hasn't really taken any alternative opinions on board, so maybe we should leave it be...

BossArky

If I saw "poker" on a CV I would lump it in the same category as someone saying their hobbies are "drinking" or "going out".

Obviously that is totally stereo-typing and I can appreciate why you may want to include it when going for a trading / risk management position... but it just rings the wrong bells in my ceann.

dunkamania

The assumption that poker players are gamblers is inaccurrate.

Players who consistently make money,do so,by analysing the probabilities of the situation and selecting the action with the largest statistical gain and not by gambling.

There are some roles in finance where poker skills are highly valued.

jd

If you have to, put card playing as a hobby along with the rest of them. Maybe let the poker bit come out at interview if you thing it may help.
jd

Aoife-FM104

dunkamania wrote:

The assumption that poker players are gamblers is inaccurrate.

Poker is gambling. As I said earlier, when you don't know for certain if you'll be up or down money at the end of the night, that is gambling.

It has about the same amount of skill as betting on football (lots of ways to make probable and informed decisions.)

Poker is gambling, just a less risky version (if you're good.)

sikes

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Poker is gambling. As I said earlier, when you don't know for certain if you'll be up or down money at the end of the night, that is gambling.

It has about the same amount of skill as betting on football (lots of ways to make probable and informed decisions.)

Poker is gambling, just a less risky version (if you're good.)

Again, i will ask, can you show me the difference between this and a trading job?

1) A trader won't know for certain if he'll be up or down money at the end of the night. Is he gambling? Of course he is.

2)

It has about the same amount of skill as betting on football (lots of ways to make probable and informed decisions.)

Are you talking about poker or trading, as i am unsure. Finding edges is what makes the money in the long run, whether in a betting shop, poker or in a trading room.

Statisical charts and models are a huge part of poker to ensure moves that are made are +ev.

And i have taken on board advice, and have left it out of a number of CVs and applications.

Sangre

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Poker is gambling. As I said earlier, when you don't know for certain if you'll be up or down money at the end of the night, that is gambling.

It has about the same amount of skill as betting on football (lots of ways to make probable and informed decisions.)

Poker is gambling, just a less risky version (if you're good.)

Ok, if people have this kind of attitude to poker I think I should leave it out. You clearly lack any understanding of the game or what it entails, yet are willing to make baseless sweeping assumptions on what poker players are like.

Aoife-FM104

Sangre wrote:

Ok, if people have this kind of attitude to poker I think I should leave it out. You clearly lack any understanding of the game or what it entails, yet are willing to make baseless sweeping assumptions on what poker players are like.

Not true. A few of my friends are poker players, and one of my friends works for a bookie.

Are you trying to say when people sit down to play poker, they know for certain they will be up money at the end of the night? That's just absolute nonsense.

Anyway, tis a different conversation for a different forum...

sikes

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

That's just absolute nonsense.

In the same way as your previous post was?

Aoife-FM104

sikes wrote:

In the same way as your previous post was?

You really believe poker isn't gambling? Come on, if you really think that you shouldn't be playing the game.

Anyway as I said, a discussion for another forum!! I'm sure it's been had many times before, so prob not worth getting into.

It would be interesting to know how you get on with poker being one of your hobbies on your CV. Let us know!

modmuffin

If you wish to bring it up in the interview, then put it in.

A friend of a friend is a trader on wall street, and all through his training he was encouraged to play poker.

to someone who does not play it may seem like "gambling", however its a game of many different skills & if you can get across these skills in an interview & feel that they are relevent to the job then why not?

Nalz

23yr old software engineer

my last line under Achievements & Interests in my CV:

Other interests include programming, reading, playing poker and socializing with friends.

Dont think it has a negative view as its made out here. If you were to delve into the whole "I won this event, I played in this tournament.." would be a bit OTT

sikes

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

You really believe poker isn't gambling? Come on, if you really think that you shouldn't be playing the game.

read my reply again. Never have i said that poker isnt gambling. I said that trading is gambling in the same sense as poker, to good players, is.

Anyway i will let you all know how it goes, if i remember.

i will try to avoid talk of my 6 kids, my coke habit, my habitual wife beating and liquor problem, however my poker i think will be brought up in some interviews.

Aoife-FM104

Yeah but working as a programmer and in a bank are very different things!

Programming requires creativity, banking requires being a zombie.

sikes

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Yeah but working as a programmer and in a bank are very different things!

Programming requires creativity, banking requires being a zombie.

no come on, i aint looking for a teller job, im looking for a trading job. long hours but if you are a zombie i doubt you would last long.

as for programming, if you talking code monkey work, nothing could be more zombie like!

BossArky

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Programming requires creativity, banking requires being a zombie.

I could go to the nearest zoo, find a few monkeys and train them up in programming in not too long at all. You have obviously no idea of banking as often some serious brain power is required, far from zombie land.

edit - and let me clarify that my comments are backed up by my own personal experiences in both IT/programming and banking/consulting.

Aoife-FM104

I have worked both in a banking environment and a development environment also.

In the bank, they wanted people who follow orders, do as they're told, keep their personality in check.

In development, it's a free for all (at least, in comparison to banking!)

BossArky

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

In the bank, they wanted people who follow orders, do as they're told, keep their personality in check.

Different experiences so.

growler

depends on the culture of the organisation / dept. you're looking to join, I wouldn't mention it or bring it up because some people have preconceived ideas about poker and from a risk managment view I suspect it's -EV to belive that the HR screener / interviewer does not hold some latent negativity towards the game.

Stick in a team sport instead.

No one reads hobbies anyway.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

damnyanks

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

I have worked both in a banking environment and a development environment also.

In the bank, they wanted people who follow orders, do as they're told, keep their personality in check.

In development, it's a free for all (at least, in comparison to banking!)

Working in AIB or Bank of Ireland as a teller is a wholelly different experience to any form of investment banking or working in the markets.

As far as gambling being frowned upon by people you work with, its highly unlikely. One lad on my team was a "semi pro" he was sponsored by some card house.

But that wasnt the question. The question was should you stick it on your CV. I'll still stick with the it can cost you getting an interview and at most would just be one of those things you could bring up in an interview. You can do the latter without it being on your CV.

As far as it relating to trading it doesnt really as the risk models are huge and complex. The only place where poker skills may become useful is within single stock equities which are pretty much computerised now. Most banks hire within some form of derivitive product which are generally pretty complex thus the huge risk models being calculated by computers.