The Rich

mountainyman

Compared to the half of the world's population who live on a dollar a day we are all rich. As we are rich we are damned.
Next time you go to church look around and see that all those around you are damned souls for whom an eternity of torment awaits. It is well deserved, we know what God calls on us to do and if we do not do it we reject him.

We do not accept Christ with words but with our deeds.


1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Wibbs

mountainyman wrote:

Compared to the half of the world's population who live on a dollar a day we are all rich.

To be fair it's all comparative. Is the person who gets by a 2 dollars a day going to be damned? Is there a cut off point in this? In Jesus' time there would have been people like beggars with less worldly goods than even his own apostles. Did not one of the apostles carry a sword that cut off a roman soldiers ear? Swords were pricey back then. Is it not how one uses one's "wealth" the deciding factor?

As we are rich we are damned.

How so? Now I do remember the bit about a rich man and the camel(rope) through the eye of the needle, but it suggests that that man may have been doomed because he didn't follow Jesus. It would also suggest that as God is all powerful getting camel through the eye of a needle wouldn't be much of an issue.

Next time you go to church look around and see that all those around you are damned souls for whom an eternity of torment awaits. It is well deserved,

Cheerful thought to be sure. You do remember the bit about "judge not, lest you be judged"?

4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.

Lets say you had payed the workmen would one be saved? In order to pay them there must have been a disparity of wealth(unless they're plumbers ) so you would be "richer" than the workers.

I could be pedantic and suggest that gold doesn't tarnish.....

Dades

mountainyman wrote:

As we are rich we are damned.

What is this - Christianity embracing Marxism?

If the gods think to speak outright to man, they will honourably speak outright; not shake their heads, and give an old wives' darkling hint.

Zombrex

I think its define as a percentage of your money, not an actual amount

If you make €1,000,000 a year and give away 3/4 you are doing the same as someone who makes €1 a year and gives away 3/4.

Well that is the theory at least. I would imagine the person with 250,000 a year still enjoys life better than the person with €0.25

BrianCalgary

The rich aren't damned. Those who don't give their life to Christ are.

Someone may be great at making money. It is their role within the body of Christ to share that wealth to support the poor, to educate the uneducated, to support missionaries, or to support wherever the Spirit leads.

hairyheretic

There was an interesting article in Time a few weeks back, entitled "Does God Want You To Be Rich?"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1533448,00.html

Excelsior

The Atheist wrote:

What is this - Christianity embracing Marxism?

I am a Marxist who embraced Christianity.

To the OP: Explain the huge wealth of Abraham, just off the top of my head.

Scofflaw

Excelsior wrote:

I am a Marxist who embraced Christianity.

To the OP: Explain the huge wealth of Abraham, just off the top of my head.

Easy.

Abraham: Old Testament.
Christ: New Testament.

cheekily,
Scofflaw

MrJoeSoap

mountainyman wrote:

Compared to the half of the world's population who live on a dollar a day we are all rich. As we are rich we are damned.
Next time you go to church look around and see that all those around you are damned souls for whom an eternity of torment awaits. It is well deserved, we know what God calls on us to do and if we do not do it we reject him.

We do not accept Christ with words but with our deeds.


1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Does this include my local parish priest, who drives a Range Rover 4x4 not less than 3 years old?

mountainyman

Joe Soap I suspect that your pp is going to hell.
Edit: apologies I have no idea when he got the car, how long he had had his old one or how long he will keep this one. It is also possible that he lives somewhere where you need a jeep to get around.
MM

Excelsior

What kind of parish priest can afford a Range Rover?! They all get paid €13000 a year.

I am obviously working for the wrong church.

Scoffy, you cheeky ilbiblerate- Paul bases his argument in Romans around Abraham so the OP still needs to justify the fantastic wealth Abe had, even as he is commended as "a friend of God".

Dades

Easily seen are others' faults, hard indeed to see are one's own. Like chaff one winnows others' faults, but one's own one hides, as a crafty fowler conceals himself by camouflage.

mountainyman

BrianCalgary wrote:

The rich aren't damned. Those who don't give their life to Christ are.

Someone may be great at making money. It is their role within the body of Christ to share that wealth to support the poor, to educate the uneducated, to support missionaries, or to support wherever the Spirit leads.

But then they aren't the rich, they are people whose money flows thorugh them to good causes. The amount of material wealth we consume in the first world is sinful (I am speaking about my own sin) there is an imperative on us to live as simply as possible.
In my opinion more money means more temptation and distance from God. While we have the poor with us we have a responsibility to be as they are.

I don't claim to be perfect in this regard I have family 2 cars (one of which is a volvo S60.) while I give to charities and to the church the facts are clear, like all of us I am going to hell.

Christ has told us what to do:

Matthew 19 wrote:

Jesus answered, [red]"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." [/red]

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, [red]"I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." [/red]

The traditional (Catholic) answer is that 'with Christ all things are possible'. Rubbish. He has told us what to do. We are all among the rich and all maong the damned.
MM

neuro-praxis

MM, if you actually believed what you were saying, you'd do something about it.

This is a strange kind of baiting.

mountainyman

I am tied to the world to strongly to resist my fate. I live in a society which regards people who don't have nice cars and houses and well dressed, well behaved kids as losers.

Effectively I don't have the courage to do what I have to do. Given that the way I live is objectively immoral (like every middle class westerner), as well as being against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Jesus doesn't condemn us to hell lightly, the problem is that in Ireland you could have a three bedroom house, a ford escort (mark VI) a Volvo S60, 2 foreign holidays a year and because you compare yourself with someone who has a Yacht, a mercedes benz and a mansion in Ballsbridge You don't realise that you are rich.

We are all in the grip of the sin of Sloth we know what we must do but do not do it.

The Irish were the most godly peoel in the world, we lived in poverty and suffering for our faith, now that faith is destroyed by pretty baubles like Sky boxes and S40s [1].

MM

[1] Not even an S60 HA!!

Scofflaw

Excelsior wrote:

What kind of parish priest can afford a Range Rover?! They all get paid €13000 a year.

I am obviously working for the wrong church.

Scoffy, you cheeky ilbiblerate- Paul bases his argument in Romans around Abraham so the OP still needs to justify the fantastic wealth Abe had, even as he is commended as "a friend of God".

Well, again, Paul isn't Jesus, is he? Jesus seems to have been quite clear that attachment to material possessions drastically reduces your chances of entering heaven:

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

So, being good, in the sense of following all the commandments, is not sufficient, whatever Paul may say. Paul, after all, was not the Son of God, and Jesus was. Which should we trust more?

even more cheekily,
Scofflaw

mountainyman

By the wasy there was no doorway to Jerusalem called the eye of the needle and the reference to the eye of the needle was almost a rabbinical cliche for describing something very difficult.
I don't think there s any doubt what Jesus meant.

At the end of the day Jesus Christ alone is God made man. He alone suffered for us and He alone is our redeemer. I believe Jesus Christ before Paul and I regard the example of Abraham as irrelevant.

MM

MrJoeSoap

mountainyman wrote:

Joe Soap I suspect that your pp is going to hell.
Edit: apologies I have no idea when he got the car, how long he had had his old one or how long he will keep this one. It is also possible that he lives somewhere where you need a jeep to get around.
MM

I've no idea either, but he certainly doesn't live somewhere he needs it to get around.

I am tied to the world to strongly to resist my fate. I live in a society which regards people who don't have nice cars and houses and well dressed, well behaved kids as losers.

I know very few people who would brand the less well off as "losers", and I would have to look strongly at why I associated with anyone who did.

Effectively I don't have the courage to do what I have to do. Given that the way I live is objectively immoral (like every middle class westerner), as well as being against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

So do you believe yourself to be (currently) on the path to hell?

Jesus doesn't condemn us to hell lightly, the problem is that in Ireland you could have a three bedroom house, a ford escort (mark VI) a Volvo S60, 2 foreign holidays a year and because you compare yourself with someone who has a Yacht, a mercedes benz and a mansion in Ballsbridge You don't realise that you are rich.

So what is the cut-off point for heaven/hell? If it is so purely about monetary assets then surely even the richest of man could be a fervent believer and dedicate himself to the church?

We are all in the grip of the sin of Sloth we know what we must do but do not do it.

Like yourself, as you have stated above?

The Irish were the most godly peoel in the world, we lived in poverty and suffering for our faith, now that faith is destroyed by pretty baubles like Sky boxes and S40s [1].

For shame :rolleyes:.

neuro-praxis

Look, this is not a black and white issue. This post is long but please read it.

By the standards of this country, I was born into a poor family. No car, no holidays, no going to restaurants etc. But by the standards of the world my family was very, very rich, as we had a (usually) warm 3-bed home, received a good education and never went hungry. We also knew how to have fun without money!

But in order for our lives to be pleasing to God, the answer is not to get rid of our homes and live on the streets, unable to support ourselves. In fact, if we are being honest, because of our unending sin, our lives can NEVER be pleasing to God. That is why we need Jesus. When we repent and submit to His love and authority, His grace covers our ineptitude and God sees us as He sees Christ - blameless.

Now, in light of receiving this amazing gift of grace, we should freely love God. Part of loving God is the duty of stewardship. This means taking care of both the world around us (which is why I will be voting green!) and the things that we have been given.

[1]
God has provided me with a home. I use this home not just as a sanctuary for myself and my husband, but as a sanctuary for others. As much as possible the door is open to people who may need some love and support. Our house is used for all kinds of meetings and as a place for all kinds of visitors and as such it is a resource that we try to use in a way that is honouring to God. After all, God owns this house and could smash it tomorrow with a freak hurricane if He felt like it. I'm just blessed to be able to use it for a while.

[2]
God has provided me and my husband with a company car. When we received the company car we were able to give our old car (for free) to two friends who do not have a car. With this new and very lovely car, we give lifts and share it as much as we can. We also try to use public transport wherever possible in order to save the environment (and petrol money!).

[3]
God has provided us, too, with salaries. Because of the choices we have made, our salaries are low, but they are sufficient. With this money, we try to purchase products that are ethical where possible - fair trade etc. We also have an ear to the ground for when those around us might need a little financial dig out (which we have been on the receiving end of also). Then we have a part of our budget devoted to giving. We give to charities, missionaries and students...and when possible we donate to things that enrich cultural lives. We definitely fail with money too, though, being selfish and spending on unnecessary luxuries. Thankfully we do not receive God's grace on OUR pathetic efforts, but on the grace of Jesus.


God puts us where He wants us. Paul had a career as a tentmaker, and He served God while working and earning. Jesus Himself enjoyed eating and drinking with friends and was known as a glutton - so I have no qualms about spending money on celebrations! It is up to Christians to be responsible stewards of the money and resources they have been given. For example, I know a couple who spent millions on a large building to create a day centre for street children in South Africa. Had they not earned up the millions in the first place, this would not have been possible.

mountainyman

Yes like myself what's your point.
Mine is this. I was in Church and as the priest talked about the poor I realised that I myself, all those around me, the secular priest and perhaps even the missionary priest were damned.

Almost everyone in this country is 'rich'. The rich are damned by definition.
Therefore to be saved we know what we must do, but we do not do it.

MM

neuro-praxis

My point is: it is by the grace of Jesus we receive salvation, not by works. It doesn't matter if I sell all of my belongings, it would only be repentance through Jesus Christ that would save me.

I am certainly not damned.

MrJoeSoap

mountainyman wrote:

Almost everyone in this country is 'rich'. The rich are damned by definition.
Therefore to be saved we know what we must do, but we do not do it.

What do you think we "must" do to be saved, specifically? Give up all our possesions in order to avoid eternal damnation?

Dades

neuro-praxis wrote:

This is a strange kind of baiting.

It is - and I'm surprised you felt the need to write a long thread to justify yourself in respect to this nonsense.

mountainyman

Atheist as you don't believe in God, the moral issues we are discussing can have no relevance to you.
You are free to regard yourself as a sort of Nietzschean superman for whom the sufferings of other people are irrlevant (though it would be more accurate to say that you are enslaved by this belief), those of us who are aware of God must seek to live our lives according to his teaching.
EDIT
Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists and was certainly the norm in the Gulag.

neuro - praxis I am sure there were guards in Auschwitz who regarded thmselves as Christians, they were damned and so are we (in general rather than yourself in particular).

MM

neuro-praxis

The Atheist wrote:

It is [baiting] - and I'm surprised you felt the need to write a long thread to justify yourself in respect to this nonsense.

You're absolutely right. It was a waste of time, as are the majority of my responses on this board.

But I was attempting (in vain) to demonstrate the biblical idea of stewardship - using what we have been given in a positive way - justifying myself is not really an option when theologically speaking it is only by Christ that I can be justified.

Sigh.

Dades

mountainyman wrote:

Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists and was certainly the norm in the Gulag.

Where have I shown a lack of empathy?! You are the one telling believers they will be damned based on the size of their cars.

MM you don't need to be a Christian (or indeed an ex-Christian) to discuss moral issues or bible interpretation any more than you need to be a whaleboat captain to discuss Moby Dick.

mountainyman wrote:

a sort of Nietzschean superman for whom the sufferings of other people are irrlevant

That's the funkiest (albeit inaccurate) thing I've ever been called here.

mountainyman

neuro-praxis wrote:

In fact, if we are being honest, because of our unending sin, our lives can NEVER be pleasing to God. That is why we need Jesus. When we repent and submit to His love and authority, His grace covers our ineptitude and God sees us as He sees Christ - blameless.

But faith is actions not just words and not just belief. Faith is lived.
I am slightly uncomfortable with your definition of grace (but that's by the by).
When accept Christ as our saviour doesn't that make it incumbent on us to behave in certain ways?

neuro-praxis wrote:

God has provided us, too, with salaries. Because of the choices we have made, our salaries are low, but they are sufficient. With this money, we try to purchase products that are ethical where possible - fair trade etc. We also have an ear to the ground for when those around us might need a little financial dig out (which we have been on the receiving end of also). Then we have a part of our budget devoted to giving. We give to charities, missionaries and students...and when possible we donate to things that enrich cultural lives. We definitely fail with money too, though, being selfish and spending on unnecessary luxuries. Thankfully we do not receive God's grace on OUR pathetic efforts, but on the grace of Jesus.

While that is commendable I doubt that it is enough, perhaps it is, perhaps being aware of one's good fortune and living and giving responsibly is sufficient.

neuro-praxis wrote:

God puts us where He wants us. Paul had a career as a tentmaker, and He served God while working and earning. Jesus Himself enjoyed eating and drinking with friends and was known as a glutton - so I have no qualms about spending money on celebrations! It is up to Christians to be responsible stewards of the money and resources they have been given. For example, I know a couple who spent millions on a large building to create a day centre for street children in South Africa. Had they not earned up the millions in the first place, this would not have been possible.

It is true that Christ enjoyed eating and drinking.
I am sure your friends use of wealth was responsible.

neuro-praxis wrote:

Now, in light of receiving this amazing gift of grace, we should freely love God. Part of loving God is the duty of stewardship. This means taking care of both the world around us (which is why I will be voting green!) and the things that we have been given.

I agree with that but if you look at the amount of the world's resources that we consume in the rich world we could have no clearer signal that our behaviour is unacceptable.

MM

neuro-praxis

mountainyman wrote:

But faith is actions not just words and not just belief. Faith is lived.

Hence my long, stupid post. Did you see me saying it would be ok for me to bathe in oil and eat caviar for dinner every night?

MountainyMan, stop insulting our collective intelligence in this thread with your carry on. So, you're damned, we're all damned. You're not too bothered about it. Whoopdy-doo.

robindch

> [mm] I am sure there were guards in Auschwitz who regarded thmselves as
> Christians, they were damned and so are we (in general rather than
> yourself in particular).

By Godwin's Law, I declare neuro-praxis the winner!

Asiaprod

neuro-praxis wrote:

But I was attempting (in vain) to demonstrate the biblical idea of stewardship - using what we have been given in a positive way - justifying myself is not really an option when theologically speaking it is only by Christ that I can be justified.

Sigh.

I like your concept of stewardship. I enjoyed your post.

MM, your first warning for the following:

"Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists"

All the Atheists I know, care deeply.

mountainyman

Asiaprod wrote:

I like your concept of stewardship. I enjoyed your post.

MM, your first warning for the following:

"Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists"

All the Atheists I know, care deeply.

about what?
MM