The Rich

mountainyman

Compared to the half of the world's population who live on a dollar a day we are all rich. As we are rich we are damned.
Next time you go to church look around and see that all those around you are damned souls for whom an eternity of torment awaits. It is well deserved, we know what God calls on us to do and if we do not do it we reject him.

We do not accept Christ with words but with our deeds.


1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Wibbs

mountainyman wrote:

Compared to the half of the world's population who live on a dollar a day we are all rich.

To be fair it's all comparative. Is the person who gets by a 2 dollars a day going to be damned? Is there a cut off point in this? In Jesus' time there would have been people like beggars with less worldly goods than even his own apostles. Did not one of the apostles carry a sword that cut off a roman soldiers ear? Swords were pricey back then. Is it not how one uses one's "wealth" the deciding factor?

As we are rich we are damned.

How so? Now I do remember the bit about a rich man and the camel(rope) through the eye of the needle, but it suggests that that man may have been doomed because he didn't follow Jesus. It would also suggest that as God is all powerful getting camel through the eye of a needle wouldn't be much of an issue.

Next time you go to church look around and see that all those around you are damned souls for whom an eternity of torment awaits. It is well deserved,

Cheerful thought to be sure. You do remember the bit about "judge not, lest you be judged"?

4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.

Lets say you had payed the workmen would one be saved? In order to pay them there must have been a disparity of wealth(unless they're plumbers ) so you would be "richer" than the workers.

I could be pedantic and suggest that gold doesn't tarnish.....

Dades

mountainyman wrote:

As we are rich we are damned.

What is this - Christianity embracing Marxism?

If the gods think to speak outright to man, they will honourably speak outright; not shake their heads, and give an old wives' darkling hint.

Zombrex

I think its define as a percentage of your money, not an actual amount

If you make €1,000,000 a year and give away 3/4 you are doing the same as someone who makes €1 a year and gives away 3/4.

Well that is the theory at least. I would imagine the person with 250,000 a year still enjoys life better than the person with €0.25

BrianCalgary

The rich aren't damned. Those who don't give their life to Christ are.

Someone may be great at making money. It is their role within the body of Christ to share that wealth to support the poor, to educate the uneducated, to support missionaries, or to support wherever the Spirit leads.

hairyheretic

There was an interesting article in Time a few weeks back, entitled "Does God Want You To Be Rich?"

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1533448,00.html

Excelsior

The Atheist wrote:

What is this - Christianity embracing Marxism?

I am a Marxist who embraced Christianity.

To the OP: Explain the huge wealth of Abraham, just off the top of my head.

Scofflaw

Excelsior wrote:

I am a Marxist who embraced Christianity.

To the OP: Explain the huge wealth of Abraham, just off the top of my head.

Easy.

Abraham: Old Testament.
Christ: New Testament.

cheekily,
Scofflaw

MrJoeSoap

mountainyman wrote:

Compared to the half of the world's population who live on a dollar a day we are all rich. As we are rich we are damned.
Next time you go to church look around and see that all those around you are damned souls for whom an eternity of torment awaits. It is well deserved, we know what God calls on us to do and if we do not do it we reject him.

We do not accept Christ with words but with our deeds.


1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Does this include my local parish priest, who drives a Range Rover 4x4 not less than 3 years old?

mountainyman

Joe Soap I suspect that your pp is going to hell.
Edit: apologies I have no idea when he got the car, how long he had had his old one or how long he will keep this one. It is also possible that he lives somewhere where you need a jeep to get around.
MM

Excelsior

What kind of parish priest can afford a Range Rover?! They all get paid €13000 a year.

I am obviously working for the wrong church.

Scoffy, you cheeky ilbiblerate- Paul bases his argument in Romans around Abraham so the OP still needs to justify the fantastic wealth Abe had, even as he is commended as "a friend of God".

Dades

Easily seen are others' faults, hard indeed to see are one's own. Like chaff one winnows others' faults, but one's own one hides, as a crafty fowler conceals himself by camouflage.

mountainyman

BrianCalgary wrote:

The rich aren't damned. Those who don't give their life to Christ are.

Someone may be great at making money. It is their role within the body of Christ to share that wealth to support the poor, to educate the uneducated, to support missionaries, or to support wherever the Spirit leads.

But then they aren't the rich, they are people whose money flows thorugh them to good causes. The amount of material wealth we consume in the first world is sinful (I am speaking about my own sin) there is an imperative on us to live as simply as possible.
In my opinion more money means more temptation and distance from God. While we have the poor with us we have a responsibility to be as they are.

I don't claim to be perfect in this regard I have family 2 cars (one of which is a volvo S60.) while I give to charities and to the church the facts are clear, like all of us I am going to hell.

Christ has told us what to do:

Matthew 19 wrote:

Jesus answered, [red]"If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." [/red]

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, [red]"I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." [/red]

The traditional (Catholic) answer is that 'with Christ all things are possible'. Rubbish. He has told us what to do. We are all among the rich and all maong the damned.
MM

neuro-praxis

MM, if you actually believed what you were saying, you'd do something about it.

This is a strange kind of baiting.

mountainyman

I am tied to the world to strongly to resist my fate. I live in a society which regards people who don't have nice cars and houses and well dressed, well behaved kids as losers.

Effectively I don't have the courage to do what I have to do. Given that the way I live is objectively immoral (like every middle class westerner), as well as being against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

Jesus doesn't condemn us to hell lightly, the problem is that in Ireland you could have a three bedroom house, a ford escort (mark VI) a Volvo S60, 2 foreign holidays a year and because you compare yourself with someone who has a Yacht, a mercedes benz and a mansion in Ballsbridge You don't realise that you are rich.

We are all in the grip of the sin of Sloth we know what we must do but do not do it.

The Irish were the most godly peoel in the world, we lived in poverty and suffering for our faith, now that faith is destroyed by pretty baubles like Sky boxes and S40s [1].

MM

[1] Not even an S60 HA!!

Scofflaw

Excelsior wrote:

What kind of parish priest can afford a Range Rover?! They all get paid €13000 a year.

I am obviously working for the wrong church.

Scoffy, you cheeky ilbiblerate- Paul bases his argument in Romans around Abraham so the OP still needs to justify the fantastic wealth Abe had, even as he is commended as "a friend of God".

Well, again, Paul isn't Jesus, is he? Jesus seems to have been quite clear that attachment to material possessions drastically reduces your chances of entering heaven:

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17. And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

18. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

19. Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

20. The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

21. Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

22. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

23. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

So, being good, in the sense of following all the commandments, is not sufficient, whatever Paul may say. Paul, after all, was not the Son of God, and Jesus was. Which should we trust more?

even more cheekily,
Scofflaw

mountainyman

By the wasy there was no doorway to Jerusalem called the eye of the needle and the reference to the eye of the needle was almost a rabbinical cliche for describing something very difficult.
I don't think there s any doubt what Jesus meant.

At the end of the day Jesus Christ alone is God made man. He alone suffered for us and He alone is our redeemer. I believe Jesus Christ before Paul and I regard the example of Abraham as irrelevant.

MM

MrJoeSoap

mountainyman wrote:

Joe Soap I suspect that your pp is going to hell.
Edit: apologies I have no idea when he got the car, how long he had had his old one or how long he will keep this one. It is also possible that he lives somewhere where you need a jeep to get around.
MM

I've no idea either, but he certainly doesn't live somewhere he needs it to get around.

I am tied to the world to strongly to resist my fate. I live in a society which regards people who don't have nice cars and houses and well dressed, well behaved kids as losers.

I know very few people who would brand the less well off as "losers", and I would have to look strongly at why I associated with anyone who did.

Effectively I don't have the courage to do what I have to do. Given that the way I live is objectively immoral (like every middle class westerner), as well as being against the teaching of Jesus Christ.

So do you believe yourself to be (currently) on the path to hell?

Jesus doesn't condemn us to hell lightly, the problem is that in Ireland you could have a three bedroom house, a ford escort (mark VI) a Volvo S60, 2 foreign holidays a year and because you compare yourself with someone who has a Yacht, a mercedes benz and a mansion in Ballsbridge You don't realise that you are rich.

So what is the cut-off point for heaven/hell? If it is so purely about monetary assets then surely even the richest of man could be a fervent believer and dedicate himself to the church?

We are all in the grip of the sin of Sloth we know what we must do but do not do it.

Like yourself, as you have stated above?

The Irish were the most godly peoel in the world, we lived in poverty and suffering for our faith, now that faith is destroyed by pretty baubles like Sky boxes and S40s [1].

For shame :rolleyes:.

neuro-praxis

Look, this is not a black and white issue. This post is long but please read it.

By the standards of this country, I was born into a poor family. No car, no holidays, no going to restaurants etc. But by the standards of the world my family was very, very rich, as we had a (usually) warm 3-bed home, received a good education and never went hungry. We also knew how to have fun without money!

But in order for our lives to be pleasing to God, the answer is not to get rid of our homes and live on the streets, unable to support ourselves. In fact, if we are being honest, because of our unending sin, our lives can NEVER be pleasing to God. That is why we need Jesus. When we repent and submit to His love and authority, His grace covers our ineptitude and God sees us as He sees Christ - blameless.

Now, in light of receiving this amazing gift of grace, we should freely love God. Part of loving God is the duty of stewardship. This means taking care of both the world around us (which is why I will be voting green!) and the things that we have been given.

[1]
God has provided me with a home. I use this home not just as a sanctuary for myself and my husband, but as a sanctuary for others. As much as possible the door is open to people who may need some love and support. Our house is used for all kinds of meetings and as a place for all kinds of visitors and as such it is a resource that we try to use in a way that is honouring to God. After all, God owns this house and could smash it tomorrow with a freak hurricane if He felt like it. I'm just blessed to be able to use it for a while.

[2]
God has provided me and my husband with a company car. When we received the company car we were able to give our old car (for free) to two friends who do not have a car. With this new and very lovely car, we give lifts and share it as much as we can. We also try to use public transport wherever possible in order to save the environment (and petrol money!).

[3]
God has provided us, too, with salaries. Because of the choices we have made, our salaries are low, but they are sufficient. With this money, we try to purchase products that are ethical where possible - fair trade etc. We also have an ear to the ground for when those around us might need a little financial dig out (which we have been on the receiving end of also). Then we have a part of our budget devoted to giving. We give to charities, missionaries and students...and when possible we donate to things that enrich cultural lives. We definitely fail with money too, though, being selfish and spending on unnecessary luxuries. Thankfully we do not receive God's grace on OUR pathetic efforts, but on the grace of Jesus.


God puts us where He wants us. Paul had a career as a tentmaker, and He served God while working and earning. Jesus Himself enjoyed eating and drinking with friends and was known as a glutton - so I have no qualms about spending money on celebrations! It is up to Christians to be responsible stewards of the money and resources they have been given. For example, I know a couple who spent millions on a large building to create a day centre for street children in South Africa. Had they not earned up the millions in the first place, this would not have been possible.

mountainyman

Yes like myself what's your point.
Mine is this. I was in Church and as the priest talked about the poor I realised that I myself, all those around me, the secular priest and perhaps even the missionary priest were damned.

Almost everyone in this country is 'rich'. The rich are damned by definition.
Therefore to be saved we know what we must do, but we do not do it.

MM

neuro-praxis

My point is: it is by the grace of Jesus we receive salvation, not by works. It doesn't matter if I sell all of my belongings, it would only be repentance through Jesus Christ that would save me.

I am certainly not damned.

MrJoeSoap

mountainyman wrote:

Almost everyone in this country is 'rich'. The rich are damned by definition.
Therefore to be saved we know what we must do, but we do not do it.

What do you think we "must" do to be saved, specifically? Give up all our possesions in order to avoid eternal damnation?

Dades

neuro-praxis wrote:

This is a strange kind of baiting.

It is - and I'm surprised you felt the need to write a long thread to justify yourself in respect to this nonsense.

mountainyman

Atheist as you don't believe in God, the moral issues we are discussing can have no relevance to you.
You are free to regard yourself as a sort of Nietzschean superman for whom the sufferings of other people are irrlevant (though it would be more accurate to say that you are enslaved by this belief), those of us who are aware of God must seek to live our lives according to his teaching.
EDIT
Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists and was certainly the norm in the Gulag.

neuro - praxis I am sure there were guards in Auschwitz who regarded thmselves as Christians, they were damned and so are we (in general rather than yourself in particular).

MM

neuro-praxis

The Atheist wrote:

It is [baiting] - and I'm surprised you felt the need to write a long thread to justify yourself in respect to this nonsense.

You're absolutely right. It was a waste of time, as are the majority of my responses on this board.

But I was attempting (in vain) to demonstrate the biblical idea of stewardship - using what we have been given in a positive way - justifying myself is not really an option when theologically speaking it is only by Christ that I can be justified.

Sigh.

Dades

mountainyman wrote:

Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists and was certainly the norm in the Gulag.

Where have I shown a lack of empathy?! You are the one telling believers they will be damned based on the size of their cars.

MM you don't need to be a Christian (or indeed an ex-Christian) to discuss moral issues or bible interpretation any more than you need to be a whaleboat captain to discuss Moby Dick.

mountainyman wrote:

a sort of Nietzschean superman for whom the sufferings of other people are irrlevant

That's the funkiest (albeit inaccurate) thing I've ever been called here.

mountainyman

neuro-praxis wrote:

In fact, if we are being honest, because of our unending sin, our lives can NEVER be pleasing to God. That is why we need Jesus. When we repent and submit to His love and authority, His grace covers our ineptitude and God sees us as He sees Christ - blameless.

But faith is actions not just words and not just belief. Faith is lived.
I am slightly uncomfortable with your definition of grace (but that's by the by).
When accept Christ as our saviour doesn't that make it incumbent on us to behave in certain ways?

neuro-praxis wrote:

God has provided us, too, with salaries. Because of the choices we have made, our salaries are low, but they are sufficient. With this money, we try to purchase products that are ethical where possible - fair trade etc. We also have an ear to the ground for when those around us might need a little financial dig out (which we have been on the receiving end of also). Then we have a part of our budget devoted to giving. We give to charities, missionaries and students...and when possible we donate to things that enrich cultural lives. We definitely fail with money too, though, being selfish and spending on unnecessary luxuries. Thankfully we do not receive God's grace on OUR pathetic efforts, but on the grace of Jesus.

While that is commendable I doubt that it is enough, perhaps it is, perhaps being aware of one's good fortune and living and giving responsibly is sufficient.

neuro-praxis wrote:

God puts us where He wants us. Paul had a career as a tentmaker, and He served God while working and earning. Jesus Himself enjoyed eating and drinking with friends and was known as a glutton - so I have no qualms about spending money on celebrations! It is up to Christians to be responsible stewards of the money and resources they have been given. For example, I know a couple who spent millions on a large building to create a day centre for street children in South Africa. Had they not earned up the millions in the first place, this would not have been possible.

It is true that Christ enjoyed eating and drinking.
I am sure your friends use of wealth was responsible.

neuro-praxis wrote:

Now, in light of receiving this amazing gift of grace, we should freely love God. Part of loving God is the duty of stewardship. This means taking care of both the world around us (which is why I will be voting green!) and the things that we have been given.

I agree with that but if you look at the amount of the world's resources that we consume in the rich world we could have no clearer signal that our behaviour is unacceptable.

MM

neuro-praxis

mountainyman wrote:

But faith is actions not just words and not just belief. Faith is lived.

Hence my long, stupid post. Did you see me saying it would be ok for me to bathe in oil and eat caviar for dinner every night?

MountainyMan, stop insulting our collective intelligence in this thread with your carry on. So, you're damned, we're all damned. You're not too bothered about it. Whoopdy-doo.

robindch

> [mm] I am sure there were guards in Auschwitz who regarded thmselves as
> Christians, they were damned and so are we (in general rather than
> yourself in particular).

By Godwin's Law, I declare neuro-praxis the winner!

Asiaprod

neuro-praxis wrote:

But I was attempting (in vain) to demonstrate the biblical idea of stewardship - using what we have been given in a positive way - justifying myself is not really an option when theologically speaking it is only by Christ that I can be justified.

Sigh.

I like your concept of stewardship. I enjoyed your post.

MM, your first warning for the following:

"Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists"

All the Atheists I know, care deeply.

mountainyman

Asiaprod wrote:

I like your concept of stewardship. I enjoyed your post.

MM, your first warning for the following:

"Your lack of empathy is typical of Atheists"

All the Atheists I know, care deeply.

about what?
MM

mountainyman

neuro-praxis wrote:

Hence my long, stupid post. Did you see me saying it would be ok for me to bathe in oil and eat caviar for dinner every night?

MountainyMan, stop insulting our collective intelligence in this thread with your carry on. So, you're damned, we're all damned. You're not too bothered about it. Whoopdy-doo.

You see bathing in olive oil and eating caviar as rthe behaviour of the rich, Bill Gates might see it as normal, a farmer in malawi might see your company car as proof of your damnation.
I am trying to save your soul.

MM

neuro-praxis

LOL

Good luck with that!

Asiaprod

mountainyman wrote:

about what?
MM

Go ask on the Atheist / Agnosticism Forum. This is the Christianity Forum.

BrianCalgary

mountainyman wrote:

But then they aren't the rich, they are people whose money flows thorugh them to good causes. The amount of material wealth we consume in the first world is sinful (I am speaking about my own sin) there is an imperative on us to live as simply as possible.
In my opinion more money means more temptation and distance from God. While we have the poor with us we have a responsibility to be as they are.

I don't claim to be perfect in this regard I have family 2 cars (one of which is a volvo S60.) while I give to charities and to the church the facts are clear, like all of us I am going to hell.

Christ has told us what to do:


The traditional (Catholic) answer is that 'with Christ all things are possible'. Rubbish. He has told us what to do. We are all among the rich and all maong the damned.
MM

I agree with your statement above. That money flows through the rich to help the poor or to put it in a better way: advance the work of God through His people.

The verse quoted in Matthew is a converstaion with one rich man. Christ was asking him to give up all that he loves to follow Christ, that being his wealth. He couldn't do it. His wealth was more important than Christ.

Christ asks us to give up everything to follow Him. Are you prepared to give up what you love most to follow Christ?

His next statement regarding the eye of the needle, would say that a rich man who is not willing to part with his worldly possessions will find it impossible to get into the kingdom of Heaven.

As someone who goes on mission trips to help the poor I rely on the big money earners in our church to give to the mission so I can go and do the front line work that the domours wouldn't necessarily do or couldn't do.

BrianCalgary

neuro-praxis wrote:

So, you're damned, we're all damned. You're not too bothered about it. Whoopdy-doo.

Hence the need for the saving grace of God, through Christ.

It is a free gift this grace. On recieving it, you're life and priorities can undergo a change.

It is incumbent on us to ask god, 'where can I best serve you?'. We will all get a different answer, and there will be those who are there to support us both pareyrfully and financially and aslo through encouragement.

MM do not feel guilty about your wealth, focus on what God would have you do with your wealth?

bmoferrall

I think the point of the rich man story (as said by others) is that we are called to put God first, not to actively shun success, be it financial or otherwise. In the rich man's case money was being placed before God; you could substitute money with anything else really. "Seek ye first the kingdom of god and all these other things shall be given to you" - i.e., if God is first in your life you won't lack for anything else (I'm sure long-standing Christians on this board will attest to the truth of this in their own lives). I believe that a maturing Christian will gradually lose interest in superfluous material things anyway.

If your talent - be it writing fiction, selling cars, playing football, etc. - brings you wealth, consider that a blessing as well a responsibility. OT figures like Abraham saw their wealth as a blessing, not a curse. The notion of suppressing, or even abandoning, a natural gift for fear it might bring you financial success seems ridiculous to me. If you take the parable of talents on one level, we are called to apply good stewardship to what we earn/own, not to hoard it or give it away out of some false/indoctrinated sense of guilt. If you are using a large proportion of your income to 'further God's kindgom', then surely God would be happy to bless you with more.

I'm not saying for one minute that we should measure success in financial terms, rather that we should be consistent in how we manage our resources, whatever their extent, always acknowledging their ultimate source. A wealthy Christian can be much closer to God than a poor Christian. From my understanding anyway, this (Catholic?) aversion to wealth/success isn't biblical.

I presume this was all a troll anyway!

MOGSA

Originally posted by MountainMan
I don't claim to be perfect in this regard I have family 2 cars (one of which is a volvo S60.) while I give to charities and to the church the facts are clear, like all of us I am going to hell.

Did not God bless Abraham or Melchizedek (king of Salem and priest of the most high God) with abundance? Or Joseph or King David or especially Solomon?
When He stopped allowing Satan to have his way with Job, did He not bless Job abundantly, more so than before?

One of our senior pastors had his car stolen recently. He was then blessed by a brand new 4X4 – as in ‘given’ - one of many examples in our body of Christ where the abundance just flows all the time.
South Africa has a 60% unemployment rate amongst the majority black population. In our church, where 60% of our congregation of several thousand is black, there are no hungry families or those in dire need! Apply God’s principles and stand back to watch them at work in practice.

We are created to be prosperous! Say that again and again until you get it right and believe it. God has shown us what to do to achieve prosperity – these are the key issues:
 Obedience and loyalty to the Word is the map to the blessing of God
 God is the source of all our resources
 God gives us the ability to attain wealth
 We declare our trust in the Lord as our Provider, in paying our tithes and offerings to God
 We know the qualities of an offering to be made

Long life, many children and abundance of everything from money to joy to crops to spiritual blessings are the gifts that our Father gives us without limit. He gives us eternal life.

I, too, was like Job in terms of just about losing everything so that I could gain everything. Unlike Job, I did not lose my family to death and neither did I worship God at the time of my sorrow and losses. God persisted, thankfully, and then lifted me up, mercifully.
God threatened me with the death of my family to take them out of the evil circumstances I had allowed to develop. At that point I abdicated to Him. This was done in a two-way discussion and not some figment of the mind.

As any father, your Father in heaven wants to bless you with abundance but you have to become part of His family first to receive an inheritance. How else, even in the secular world under most circumstances?

Any person trained in even the basic works of salvation or working with the needy understands Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs. Of course we understand that a needy person is hardly able to concentrate on the current level of needs, let alone the next layer up. But there is a rider to all of this.

Mathew : 4:4:

‘But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.’

Man needs to be fed spiritually too so don’t castigate us when we give you a Bible as well as a loaf of bread when you are hungry – we know that you go hungry because you are unable to be blessed with God’s abundance because you are not part of His family!

You may even suffer mental illness or other curses for the same reason. You may be recovering and yet wonder if the curse will strike again soon.

As the body of Christ we will persist in providing both so you can obtain permanent relief from your problems by being blessed by God with His abundance by becoming part of His family.

Being rich is a sin?
So if you believe that being rich is a sin then you have it all wrong. Not tithing and not doing the will of the Father (your fruits according to His plan for you) because of the lack of a proper relationship through not being baptised in the Holy Spirit, is a sin. Being blessed and therefore ‘rich’ in secular terms, is biblical and exactly that; blessed by God.

The vow of poverty taken by priests and nuns etc is also devoid of any godly principle because they don’t understand the need of a father to bless his children as well as the need to receive God’s blessings. They bind God by committing themselves up front, showing that they cannot trust Him to bless them while they undertake the work that they decide that He needs done on His behalf! Do you think their fruits are acceptable offerings to God?
Does God need them? Do you think that God doesn’t want to bless them with a life partner, as soul-mate, as well as children amongst other abundances?

Of course, you could also pledge your soul to Satan like so many pop stars or witches and have an abundant but debauched life like Freddy or Sir XYZ before you get snuffed out and discover the ultimate deception. Satan likes to cut your life short so that he can reap your soul early or before you can return to the Lord. Satan sows and certainly understands the principle of reaping.

Everything comes down to the Abrahamic Covenant where God states that He will bless you so that you be a blessing. If God cant bless you then you cant bless others! If you don’t have abundant resources, how can you provide for others from your resources?

Your tithes should be used by the body of Christ (notice I am wary of saying ‘church’) to bless people and lift others up out of hunger and other aspects of their environments and circumstances. Prayer will resolve the optimum use of the tithes according to God’s will at the time.

As a self-confessed Christian, you do tithe one tenth of everything you earn before tax as well as of your time and gifts, don’t you? According to God’s word? Is anyone here cheating God?

Just like every bit of God’s Word in terms of the project framework, His word from Genesis 1:1 onwards is still valid for today’s world. So the tithe is not abolished, nor the principles behind it, invalid.

Sowing into the kingdom of God is also a strong Biblical principle. You can only reap if you have sown. You will reap only what you have sown. A little seed, like the mustard seed, will grow into a mighty tree. Try sowing into the kingdom of heaven. God’s principles work!

Get the tithe right!
So tithing is the minimal obligation because it belongs to God in the first place and it goes into His storehouse (His churches), not to the school fund, or the dogs for the Blind Association or the local charity. Tithes belong to God. Tithes must be from your ‘first fruits’ of your harvest and must be unblemished.

Get blessings right!
Blessings are those things that you give others upon instigation of the Holy Spirit not because it makes you feel good. It could be your advice, counseling, doing books for the church or manning the stall at the church bazaar. Separate blessings from tithes.
Blessings will be over and above the 10% given in terms of tithes. Tithes are not sowing into the kingdom of God – He owns them already - ‘blessings’ represent such sowing.

The parable about the 10 talons is how God views the resources that He gives to you to steward as pointed out by others on this thread.

Stop worrying and take corrective action!
So stop worrying about being rich in terms of earthly possessions and start worrying about being aligned with God by becoming baptised in the Holy Spirit and start tithing (as well as just blessing others) and undertaking God’s plan for you! If God wants you to get rid of any earthly wealth He will let you know loud and clearly as I have also discovered.

Get baptised with the Holy Spirit!
To be baptised in the Holy Spirit means to be part of the Bride of Christ – therefore part of God’s inheritance – you will have abundance of every excellent kind. You will also excel at looking after the poor of every kind and help to shepherd them towards receiving their share of God’s inheritance.

Only God can take you out of dismal circumstances with love. Ask me – I experienced this like Job. Only God can give you the right kind of abundance – ask me again and I will show you what He did for me, not once but several times to restore my earthly wealth.

As a secular friend, who is a bit of a social butterfly, says: ‘if there is a will, I want to be in it!’
Do you want to be in God’s will? Be like the Prodigal son and reconcile with your Father! Humble yourself and ask forgiveness and your inheritance will be restored to you once you have aligned with God!

You should know how to pray by now, if not, then find out how in the locked thread of ‘The Mark of God’ – posting #14.

More than anything, if you consider yourself a child of mighty God, why do you succumb to the taunts of Satan and declare that you are dammed, thereby speaking curses into your life and those of your family. Repent of this, ask God to remove the effect of those curses as per the prayers I posted on my now well-quoted thread or your own and don’t do yourself and especially your family down ever again.

What gives me the right to admonish you? The same reason that you would expect from a brother who would/does love you enough to get you out of the quagmire and stop you hurting. Wouldn’t you do the same for him and could you expect any less from a brother in Christ?

HTH all those who are in need of God’ direction according to His Word. Praise God.

JimiTime

MOGSA! How can you be taken seriously as a christian, when in your blog on another thread you refer us to the site of David Icke to prove a conspiracy about human sacrificing giving world leaders power etc etc. You refer to lizard people. Saying that David Icke says that this is due to Aliens reproducing with humans, but you clarified that he was mistaken.....It was demons and human crossbreading???? You then say look at some of the wrestlers to prove the point?????? You also talk so much about demons, watchers, symbols etc. While in the same breadth condemn witchcraft. In reading your blog, you are the one in need of spiritual help. You are the one pre occupied with demons and witchcraft and the like. As our only spiritual guide, The Bible does not go into great detail about the ways of satan, only enough to let us know that he's the bad guy, father of the lie, a deciever and a tempter. We do not need to know him! All we need know is Christs teachings, and that anything contradictory to these are to be stayed clear of.
And you have the gaul to say that I am not a 'proper christian' because I have not become a member of the born agains! Cop on to yourself, and end your facination with the occult for your sake!

Apologies for getting off topic people, just that Mogsas blog is locked and I needed to get that off my chest.

JimiTime

mountainyman wrote:

Compared to the half of the world's population who live on a dollar a day we are all rich. As we are rich we are damned.
Next time you go to church look around and see that all those around you are damned souls for whom an eternity of torment awaits. It is well deserved, we know what God calls on us to do and if we do not do it we reject him.

We do not accept Christ with words but with our deeds.


1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you.
2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days.
4 Look! The wages you failed to pay the workmen who mowed your fields are crying out against you. The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord Almighty.
5 You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter.
[a] 6 You have condemned and murdered innocent men, who were not opposing you.

Ok. think about it. When the diciple of Jesus says, how may I have 'perfect' righteousness, Jesus tells him to sell all he owns and come follow him. The man is troubled by this, and Jesus then gives the example of the eye of the needle and the camel. There are those in the world that seek this perfect righteousness. completely selfless, and dedicated to Christ. However, did the apostles not stay in houses of diciples? were these diciples damned, because they hadn't sold their homes? Why Paul worked his trade as a tentmaker with one diciple, who's home he stayed at. this man was doing his secular work wa he not? was he damned?
You must see what Jesus was talking about. He informed us that we must seek first the kingdom. He told us not to go in search of riches in this world, but to build treasures in heaven, for these will by no means pass away. He also said don't seek the praise of men. His point was knowing of the dangers that riches can bring. The more you have, the more you fear losing. A rich man as was talked about back then, probably had a certain personality trait that was undesirable or dishonest. It maybe had root with power of some sort. He describes the richman not paying his workers. He also describes in Luke, the richman who would give Lazarus the crumbs from his table. So at the same time as mentioning a rich man, he also gives charachter traits.
So to summarise, being rich is not sinful. If your richness leads you to be greedy, glutonus, covetous, envious etc etc, then these are the things to be wary of ,and are traits more found in those who are powerful and rich. I do agree with the teaching that blessed are the poor. For if they accept Christ, they have not got the binds to stop them from spreading the message and completely doing his will. However, don't let guilt in what you think you should be doing consume you, for this is a deterrant for doing anything. Take baby steps in your faith so as not have it all crash down on you. Don't think you are not good enough, for this will cause you to stumble.

Zombrex

lizard men? ... you guys are all nuts

I would imagine the position of the Christian church is that the only way to be saved is to accept Jesus Christ, but by accepting Jesus Christ you will naturally do as much as you can for your fellow man.

So suppose it could be argued that those who claim to have accepted Christ but yet do nothing, or very little for their fellow man, haven't actually accepted Jesus Christ in the first place.

I suppose it is something for those who think they have accepted Jesus to think about....

kinda makes me glad I'm an atheist ... lizard men indeed

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

lizard men? .
kinda makes me glad I'm an atheist ... lizard men indeed

And that films like Alien, are de-sensitising us to demon infestations, and that if you make light of things you need help (he didn't specify of what things, which leads me to believe he means everything). Seriously, I'd laugh if it wasn't so crazy. That someone thinks about this kind of thing and then says that he's a christian baffles me!

And just in case anyone missed the post, MOGSA is the one who believes in the lizard men not me:)

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

And that films like Alien, are de-sensitising us to demon infestations

Kinda ironic, considering the that idea of horned bug eyed demons popular in Hollywood horror movies and shows like Buffy the Vampire slayer isn't found in the Bible and is largely an invention of the late middle ages. The Bible describes "demons" as being the angles that sided with the devil so you would imagine they look like angles, and they manifest themselves as mental illness in those possessed (of course the atheist in me would say they actually were mental illness but the people in Biblical time did not understand this).

MOGSA should probably take his own advice and stop paying too much attention to horror movies.

JimiTime wrote:

And just in case anyone missed the post, MOGSA is the one who believes in the lizard men not me:)

Yeah right Jimi!! ... thats what they want us to think!

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

Yeah right Jimi!! ... thats what they want us to think!

Hissssssssss:D Actually, I can't help but think that if MOGSA reads this, he'll think that he is being proven correct. Making light of things and all. No doubt he'll call to mind Noah being mocked before the flood or something. Its actually kinda sad:(

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

Ok. think about it. When the diciple of Jesus says, how may I have 'perfect' righteousness, Jesus tells him to sell all he owns and come follow him. The man is troubled by this, and Jesus then gives the example of the eye of the needle and the camel. There are those in the world that seek this perfect righteousness. completely selfless, and dedicated to Christ. However, did the apostles not stay in houses of diciples? were these diciples damned, because they hadn't sold their homes? Why Paul worked his trade as a tentmaker with one diciple, who's home he stayed at. this man was doing his secular work wa he not? was he damned?
You must see what Jesus was talking about. He informed us that we must seek first the kingdom. He told us not to go in search of riches in this world, but to build treasures in heaven, for these will by no means pass away. He also said don't seek the praise of men. His point was knowing of the dangers that riches can bring. The more you have, the more you fear losing. A rich man as was talked about back then, probably had a certain personality trait that was undesirable or dishonest. It maybe had root with power of some sort. He describes the richman not paying his workers. He also describes in Luke, the richman who would give Lazarus the crumbs from his table. So at the same time as mentioning a rich man, he also gives charachter traits.
So to summarise, being rich is not sinful. If your richness leads you to be greedy, glutonus, covetous, envious etc etc, then these are the things to be wary of ,and are traits more found in those who are powerful and rich. I do agree with the teaching that blessed are the poor. For if they accept Christ, they have not got the binds to stop them from spreading the message and completely doing his will. However, don't let guilt in what you think you should be doing consume you, for this is a deterrant for doing anything. Take baby steps in your faith so as not have it all crash down on you. Don't think you are not good enough, for this will cause you to stumble.

Again, I have to point out to those using this argument that (a) the young man otherwise did everything Jesus recommended, so his wealth was the one remaining issue, and (b) Jesus did not say "follow me, and use your wealth for good purposes", which is what many of you claim he meant.

If Jesus meant something other than what he very clearly said, why did he choose not to say it?

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

Scofflaw wrote:

Again, I have to point out to those using this argument that (a) the young man otherwise did everything Jesus recommended, so his wealth was the one remaining issue, and (b) Jesus did not say "follow me, and use your wealth for good purposes", which is what many of you claim he meant.

If Jesus meant something other than what he very clearly said, why did he choose not to say it?

cordially,
Scofflaw

The man asked how he would have 'perfect righteousness'. He had faith that Jesus was the way, he saw first hand the great signs performed. He knew what christ promised, yet he still could not give up his possesions. This does not mean he was damned, but Jesus used it to show how your wealth could ensnare you, he was a prisoner of his wealth in a way. Jesus was clear, and never cast a judgement on that man. Jesus tells us in Matthew that a man cannnot slave for 2 masters, neither can he slave for God and for riches. Whatever twist you wish to put on it, Jesus' views on it are abundant and clear. His message is, don't be caught up in striving for wealth, but rather seek first the kingdom. If your wealth is keeping you from Christ in some way, then you have a problem, but if its not, then you don't. I made it clear that the rich man was always portrayed with dishonesty and greed, so the charachter traits were the issue not the fact that he had wealth. I.E. The riches were of greater importance.

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

The man asked how he would have 'perfect righteousness'. He had faith that Jesus was the way, he saw first hand the great signs performed. He knew what christ promised, yet he still could not give up his possesions. This does not mean he was damned, but Jesus used it to show how your wealth could ensnare you, he was a prisoner of his wealth in a way. Jesus was clear, and never cast a judgement on that man. Jesus tells us in Matthew that a man cannnot slave for 2 masters, neither can he slave for God and for riches. Whatever twist you wish to put on it, Jesus' views on it are abundant and clear. His message is, don't be caught up in striving for wealth, but rather seek first the kingdom. If your wealth is keeping you from Christ in some way, then you have a problem, but if its not, then you don't. I made it clear that the rich man was always portrayed with dishonesty and greed, so the charachter traits were the issue not the fact that he had wealth. I.E. The riches were of greater importance.

Alas, this is not so. Even in your post, you have two completely contrasting examples of rich men - Dives, who had the negative character traits you take as the real reason wealth is bad, and the anonymous young man, who seems otherwise to have had an almost perfect character. Of which one did Christ say that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven?

All of your protestations about how wealth is alright are actually simply demonstrations of how accurate Christ's words are. You know how to give up everything and follow Him - what stops you?

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

Scofflaw wrote:

Alas, this is not so. Even in your post, you have two completely contrasting examples of rich men - Dives, who had the negative character traits you take as the real reason wealth is bad, and the anonymous young man, who seems otherwise to have had an almost perfect character. Of which one did Christ say that it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into Heaven?

You are choosing to take an isolated scripture and analyse it without reference to anything else. Would you also like to analyse the scripture where he says 'you've got to eat my body and drink my blood'? Just like all the scriptures you must look at the overall picture to extract the meaning. By what you are saying, Jesus is saying that anyone with posessions is damned. Analysing other scriptures, this is not the message. I pointed to the fact that to have nothing, means you have nothing to lose which makes it easier to fully dedicate yourself to spreading Christs message. It is clear however, that not all diciples were so zealous in following, but he did not cast a judgement on them. If you take exception to my explaination, I am open to the fact that my understanding may be flawed, so please educate me as to what Christs overall message is about having posessions in your view. Obviously you will have to go beyond this scripture to have a more accurate view. Thanks.

All of your protestations about how wealth is alright are actually simply demonstrations of how accurate Christ's words are.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I never said 'wealth is alright', if you read my post you will see that the jist of what I said was, just because you have wealth does not make you a damned person.

You know how to give up everything and follow Him - what stops you?

Thats an assumption on your part. I don't know how to give up everything and follow him. Christ says that he does not want sacrafice, he wants love. I am not going to do anything until my motivations are absolutely based on love, not on reward or necessity. I am at my spiritual infancy at present, and on a steep learning curve. I have often thought about the best way to serve Christ, and still am. If my conclusions are to sell everything and give to the needy and just go from house to house for the rest of my days then I pray I will have the courage to do so, but I will only do it for love of Christ and my fellow man, for with another motivation, it is useless.

Scofflaw

JimiTime wrote:

You are choosing to take an isolated scripture and analyse it without reference to anything else. Would you also like to analyse the scripture where he says 'you've got to eat my body and drink my blood'? Just like all the scriptures you must look at the overall picture to extract the meaning. By what you are saying, Jesus is saying that anyone with posessions is damned.

Not at all. That is your suggestion. I am saying that the pursuit or retention of wealth is inherently sinful, in the sense that it will deny you a place in Heaven. These are worldly aims, not spiritual.

JimiTime wrote:

Analysing other scriptures, this is not the message. I pointed to the fact that to have nothing, means you have nothing to lose which makes it easier to fully dedicate yourself to spreading Christs message. It is clear however, that not all diciples were so zealous in following, but he did not cast a judgement on them. If you take exception to my explaination, I am open to the fact that my understanding may be flawed, so please educate me as to what Christs overall message is about having posessions in your view. Obviously you will have to go beyond this scripture to have a more accurate view. Thanks.

"Consider the lilies of the field". "The meek shall inherit the earth". There is a consistent tone to Christ's message, and it certainly does not say that the pursuit of wealth is a good thing.

It is also absolutely clear from the history of the early Church that this was taken to be Christ's message. The move away from this simplest interpretation of Christ's view came only with the compromise with the Roman Imperium. Again, this is well known. The position that Christ's followers should be poor comes up again and again, and is always argued against by established churches because they do not wish to give up the wealth, which they claim is used for "good works".

JimiTime wrote:

I never said 'wealth is alright', if you read my post you will see that the jist of what I said was, just because you have wealth does not make you a damned person.

Why is it possible to pursue wealth without detriment to your spirit now, when it was not possible then? If you have acquired wealth, you have pursued wealth, and amassed wealth.

JimiTime wrote:

Thats an assumption on your part. I don't know how to give up everything and follow him. Christ says that he does not want sacrafice, he wants love. I am not going to do anything until my motivations are absolutely based on love, not on reward or necessity. I am at my spiritual infancy at present, and on a steep learning curve. I have often thought about the best way to serve Christ, and still am. If my conclusions are to sell everything and give to the needy and just go from house to house for the rest of my days then I pray I will have the courage to do so, but I will only do it for love of Christ and my fellow man, for with another motivation, it is useless.

OK. I think that selling everything is not the same as "giving everything up", particularly if it actually reduces your ability to be Christian. I would be more certain that what is meant is giving up your worldly ambitions, which include those of being well-off. It's the pursuit, or the retention, of worldly aims that is the problem.

For the record, I don't think that Christ meant the young man to sell everything. But if the young man could not do so, he was unable to follow Christ with all his heart.

cordially,
Scofflaw

JimiTime

Scofflaw wrote:

Why is it possible to pursue wealth without detriment to your spirit now, when it was not possible then? If you have acquired wealth, you have pursued wealth, and amassed wealth.

Maybe I wasn't very clear in the first place. I am saying that to seek riches is not right. Seek first the kingdom is the message. That was my point. Someone who has a family and works 9 to 5 with the motivation of being a provider for his family out of love, but also has faith in Jesus Christ, and holds him in his heart, and is not ashamed about saying the sayings of our Lord, is he seeking riches? On the flip side, I do think that the priest, or vicar or bishop etc etc, with their brand new range rover or giant house for 1, while there are people in need in their community is wrong. The same goes for a Christian. The point is the pursuit of riches and neglect of those in need.

OK. I think that selling everything is not the same as "giving everything up", particularly if it actually reduces your ability to be Christian. I would be more certain that what is meant is giving up your worldly ambitions, which include those of being well-off. It's the pursuit, or the retention, of worldly aims that is the problem.

Precisely:)

For the record, I don't think that Christ meant the young man to sell everything. But if the young man could not do so, he was unable to follow Christ with all his heart.

I agree. And to go further, he used it as an example of how being materielistic can come between you and him.