Why would anybody buy a performance car???

pburns

Don't get me wrong - I'm a frequent boardster. I love cars and I'm not anti-performance-car.

I hate the way Irish buyers go for the smallest-engine/biggest-car as a default choice (e.g. 1.4 Octavia) or titchy 1.4 diesels in Focus-sized cars. I think it's positivly dangerous to have a car so slow it can't overtake properly.

However...
why buy an M3, GTI, hot Civic etc when the politicans & gardai are increasingly targeting speed. It's becoming impossible to drive even 'sensibly' fast in this country. And I think driving a performance car is gonna be like a red-rag-to-a-bull for the cops...

Does anyone really need anything above say 130-150bhp (or slightly more in anything 5-series size or above)???

Anan1

This is actually quite true. Around 8 years ago, I bought a Lancia Delta HF integrale, a car which I still have. At the time, it was about as much fun as I've ever had behind the wheel. These days, though, I have to admit that the car is simply unsuitable for Irish roads. I'm now driving a debadged 13 year old Mercedes C280 auto. This is pretty much the perfect car for me, it's quick enough to be both safe & entertaining, bland enough not to be noticed, comfortable in heavy traffic, and old enough that the odd parking rub doesn't bother me.

peasant

One of the reasons why after two seriously fast Saab turbos I went and bought my current crutch on wheels is that I simply didn't need the perfomance ...in fact it was becoming a nuisance.

Nothing is more frustrating than knowing your car has the potential to just go and zoom past whatever idiot(s) is (are) holding you up ...but you can't ...because you're not allowed to.

And even if the road is clear and empty ...to get the real enjoyment out of a performance car ...the "extra" that it offers over and above any other car ...in most cases you have to go well beyond the legal boundaries as well.

Sure ...there always are the little "drag races" from traffic lights or roundabaouts up to the speed limit, or the devastatingly quick overtaking maneuvres ...but after a while that just felt childish. Or I found myself overtaking just for the sake of it and/or in places where I shouldn't have.

Still, I'm glad I had the chance to get this performance car thing out of my system by having had one and deciding it wasn't really worth it, rather than by some authority (or even just "common sense") telling me I couldn't/mustn't get one.

Kersh

Cos I always wanted one. I had a list when I was younger..
Celica, Gto, 300zx, Cosworth Sierra, 911, 308, Testarossa, f40.
I have been through all up to Testarossa, but I missed the cossie.... ill get one someday.
So my reason is childhood dreams.......:D

mloc123

Kersh wrote:

So my reason is childhood dreams.......:D

Same here, just picked up a new car this week. MR2 Turbo (about 240bhp, closer to 220 on Irish fuel). I don't drive all that fast but I do like being able to get to 120kph on the motorway in a couple of seconds..

pburns

pburns wrote:

However...
why buy an M3, GTI, hot Civic etc when the politicans & gardai are increasingly targeting speed. It's becoming impossible to drive even 'sensibly' fast in this country. And I think driving a performance car is gonna be like a red-rag-to-a-bull for the cops...

Does anyone really need anything above say 130-150bhp (or slightly more in anything 5-series size or above)???

Not really. But then again do people need electric windows? Air conditioning? & Many other little luxurys in the car..

I see where you are coming from. I think you view cars as nothing more as a tool for getting from A to B. Figures like bhp are unimportant to you.

However as someone that enjoys driving I like to have the performance and the extra bit of kick that comes with higher performance cars. I can do this without breaking every speed limit under the sun or having my licence catch fire. Its not all about speed.

maidhc

ronoc wrote:

I see where you are coming from. I think you view cars as nothing more as a tool for getting from A to B. Figures like bhp are unimportant to you.

I don't think that need necessarily be the case. Something as fast as an M3 is really a caged tiger in Ireland, there is nowhere to use it. Even for overtaking, it has far more power than necessary.

Seth Brundle

So what is deemed necessary?
Cars are becoming heavier due to the safety orientated design. This extra weight needs to be carried.
My car is 2.5L and has 172bhp. It is by no means powerful as the weight under it sucks most of it away. However, whilst it can achieve over 120mph easily (with a half decent mpg), I don't do this kind of speed on our roads because Im not stupid.

Anyhow a bugatti veyron (1001bhp) is not a dangerous car unless it is driven dangerously. A 20 year old bog standard fiesta is dangerous if driven at 80km/h in a housing estate!

maidhc

maidhc wrote:

I don't think that need necessarily be the case. Something as fast as an M3 is really a caged tiger in Ireland, there is nowhere to use it. Even for overtaking, it has far more power than necessary.

On the road perhaps? Who says you have to drive the stones out of it?
Every car is a caged animal.

Anan1

ronoc wrote:

On the road perhaps? Who says you have to drive the stones out of it?
Every car is a caged animal.

By that reasoning I could use my Delta every day, driving it as if it were a VW Golf. Sure I could in principle, but it would be both pointless and nigh-on impossible in practise.

Seth Brundle

Not really - if your car is not safe to drive then you don't drive it (or at least not at a speed where it becomes unsafe)

Anan1

Anan1 wrote:

By that reasoning I could use my Delta every day, driving it as if it were a VW Golf. Sure I could in principle, but it would be both pointless and nigh-on impossible in practise.

I don't think its fair to compare a terrifing little hot hatch like that with a modern BMW!

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I drive a 192 BHP Mazda and while I never go at excessive speed the breaking and cornering performance are great. People forget that its not only straight line performance it how fast you can corner safely. I may not go above the speedlimit often but I rarely have to break around a corner either. Also taking off from lights is an other reason to own one, zero to speed limit quickly is not against the law.. A car that can go 155 MPH can also break back down very qiuckly indeed making it safer at the lower speed limit.

Lets not forget the poser value either.

Anan1

kbannon wrote:

Not really - if your car is not safe to drive then you don't drive it (or at least not at a speed where it becomes unsafe)

I think you're missing the point - it's not the car, it's me.;)

ronoc wrote:

I don't think its fair to compare a terrifing little hot hatch like that with a modern BMW!

My mistake, I was thinking of the original, handbuilt one.

TheBazman

there are a variety of reasons - the thrill, the satisfaction of achieving a goal of having a sports/performance car, the surge of power, the sound..... Its for some people, not for others.

I had a 350Z for a year and it was great - then for practicality reasons changed to a 520d diesel. I consoled myself by saying exactly what is said above - what use is 280 bhp, how often in reality do you want to go 0-60 in under 6 seconds etc. In reality you dont "need" this.

However... after saying all this - I do miss the power/performance. In an ideal world you would have a performance car for the weekend and something more practical for during the week. However this is a luxury that many of us cant afford (Note: Euromillions is over 100 mill tonight!!)

mloc123

Sunny Glamorous Navy wrote:

Also taking off from lights is an other reason to own one, zero to speed limit quickly is not against the law..

pburns

ronoc wrote:

I see where you are coming from. I think you view cars as nothing more as a tool for getting from A to B. Figures like bhp are unimportant to you.

As maidhc points out, this is certainly NOT the case... I have to admit to not adhering to every speed limit and not AGREEING with many of the ridiculously slow limits that are being ever more rigidly enforced. That's a whole other argument I don't want to get into right now.

I don't want to target one car but the 3-series range provides a good example. A 320d (about 160 BHP) will do 140mph, 0-60 in 8.3 seconds, great mid-range poke. A 330d should provide more than enough poke for anyone...
330i, 335i, M3 - who needs 'em!!

Anyway, I think if you really love cars it shouldn't be all about speed or bhp or any of that juvenile nonesense. Gordon Murray, designer of the McLaren F1 waxs lyrical about the Citroen Berlingo(!?), various motoring journalist types once championed the 2CV as personal transport. Neither of these would get me hot-and-bothered around the old nether regions but it ain't all about Evos & Scoobys & S4s & 911s...

mike65

Its a good topic and one I should'nt contribute to as I have a small engine/big car combination! (Audi A6 1.8), it seems to me that if you use your car to commute (and live in Dublin esp) then you might as well buy a car which is nice to be in rather then quick or powerful at the max.

Mike.

Eoin

mike65 wrote:

Its a good topic and one I should'nt contribute to as I have a small engine/big car combination! (Audi A6 1.8), it seems to me that if you use your car to commute (and live in Dublin esp) then you might as well buy a car which is nice to be in rather then quick or powerful at the max.

Mike.

Definitely, but is there really all that much compromise with modern performance cars? I'd have thought that most of them are just as nice to drive around town in traffic as a standard hatchback.

It really depends on how you define a performance car anyway - a BMW 320CD (diesel coupe - never available over here I think?) will return 50MPG, but still decent performance.

pburns

pburns wrote:

Anyway, I think if you really love cars it shouldn't be all about speed or bhp or any of that juvenile nonesense. Gordon Murray, designer of the McLaren F1 waxs lyrical about the Citroen Berlingo(!?), various motoring journalist types once championed the 2CV as personal transport. Neither of these would get me hot-and-bothered around the old nether regions but it ain't all about Evos & Scoobys & S4s & 911s...

Well thats why they make different types of cars! Nobody has the same needs or preferences in cars. Some people like the extra power.

I drive a ford focus at the moment (1.4L too much power lol) and i love it. It has great road holding and handling. The biggest petrol engine in it here (apart from the st and rs models) is the 1.6! In the uk they can give you up to a 2.0l in the standard focus. Thats more to do with the way they are taxed here.

mloc123

ronoc wrote:

In the uk they can give you up to a 2.0l in the standard focus. Thats more to do with the way they are taxed here.

I looked at a 2litre Focus sport a few months back, might have been a UK imort tho'

ambro25

I believe it's an age thing.

For me, it's always been a childhood dream (;) @ kersh) , and I reckon enough of it is left for a TVR (I will own one someday, even if I'll probably manage about 500 annuals kms in it year-in year-out ). Over the years, I've been through a Delta Integrale, and a few choice others (nothing german, I'll happily attest), ending up modestly back down with a 1.8 MX5 (mk1).

...And then you grow up, you get married, you get kids, you work more, etc, etc.

Sometime very soon, the MX5 is being retired to France for storage at the family home, because I only do 1000 kms a year in it tops (age... babies, less free time, commtiments, this-that-the-other), but I don't want to sell it. I'd get, what... €6000 all-in? '98, pristine, ltd ed, 45000 miles all fully verified, FMDSH etc. So, price/cost/enjoyment equation sez keep it, even for 500 kms a year (no more road tax, €150 fully-comp, NCT every 2 years).

So there ya have it...

Young, care-free, earning, "aspirational" ? sports car while-u-can-because-u-can

Maturing, responsibilities, family way, earning more (and paying more) ? family car because-u-have-to

A good compromise? - the one we're keeping as a daily, the Impreza. Or a std Legacy saloon.

kluivert

Diesel performance cars are the way forward.

The new Octy 170bhp TDi how could you go wrong with that.

Easy to drive and comfortable affordability and big enough for the family, so dad can drop the kids off at school and have some fun on the way home again.

Astra CDTI 150bhp is being tuned to 200bhp in the UK, why because its about the performance and the thrill. Its about men having the power and the control and having fun.

I went to DG Opel in Dublin to look at the new Astra Sportshatch, they had loads of 1.4's as his main customers where from Dublin city and there wasnt a demanded for powerful cars in the city.

On the other hand it helps to have a bit of performance when passing out a lorry doing 30 mph on our country roads if you have to work or something. This would be more dangerous in a 1.4 compared to a 2.0T.

Another thing a 1.4 in an octy will not be as reliable as a 2.0 because its under great strain to pull the cars weight. Thats why you see 10 year old big engine cars still ploughing along nicely as you dont have to rev the crap out of them in order to make the car move.

Mondello is a great place here to bring your car for track days and just go for it.

MarkR

Chicks. Chicks dig the cars.

Kersh

^^^^ Thats what most people think... the truth however, they dont care.. buy them lots of girly things and they will love you.

ambro25

MarkR wrote:

Chicks. Chicks dig the cars.

See what I mean with my it's an age thing theory?

(and my theory therefore actually happens to be verified by mid-life crisis-hitting 40-somethings, double-:D)

kluivert

When I win the Euromillions tonight I am going to buy a Morgan Aero 8.

mloc123

ambro25 wrote:

Young, care-free, earning, "aspirational" ? sports car while-u-can-because-u-can

Exactly, you might aswell get one while your young and able to afford and run one.

dubstub

mloc123 wrote:

Exactly, you might aswell get one while your young and able to afford and run one.

And you don't need back seats with child seat connections! A friend of mine wasn't too happy having to sell his Z4 after only 6 months when his wife had an untimely pregnancy!

Tabnabs

Bloke I know has an Aston Martin DB7, wow, what a car. Just sitting in it you can out stare any performance car snob in a high spec Merc, bmw etc. Put your foot down and you are pushed back into the seat like a 737 on the runway at Dublin airport. Just unreal.

But this bloke spends more time in his wife's Mini because the Aston just isn't practical to drive around... :rolleyes:

Eoin

Dyflin wrote:

Bloke I know has an Aston Martin DB7, wow, what a car. Just sitting in it you can out stare any performance car snob in a high spec Merc, bmw etc. Put your foot down and you are pushed back into the seat like a 737 on the runway at Dublin airport. Just unreal.

But this bloke spends more time in his wife's Mini because the Aston just isn't practical to drive around... :rolleyes:

I would class an Aston Martin closer to the supercar category than the hot hatch type car that the OP is referring to.

Tabnabs

eoin_s wrote:

I would class an Aston Martin closer to the supercar category than the hot hatch type car that the OP is referring to.

Yeah but the point is, the car can never reach it's driving potential so why bother? Be it a super car or hot hatch?

prospect

It makes sense to have performance to a point. But I have to agree with peasant about wanting to use the available power.

When I am in my Alfa, I know I can easily outpace a lot of other cars on the road, and as peasant says, I have found myslef overtaking cars, because I can. This is obviously not the way to be on the roads.

Yet, when I am in my Megane, I am happy to tootle along and enjoy the comfort of the drive.

So, I suppose we nearly all go through the same phases:

1. Want a car. Drive a banger.
2. Young and out to impress, drive a cheap car that 'looks' like it can perform.
3. Getting places in life and can afford to make that car a reality, so enter the hot hatch, or affordable sports car.
4. Doing well, insurance getting cheaper, more upmarket performance car.
5. Family !!! Enter the family car.
6. Family getting older, get a comfortable big car with performance.
7. Kids growing up, missing the performance. But you have plenty of money now (no mortgage) so you buy a fully fledged cool machine. This is called the mid-life crisis.
8. You cop on that you are too old for that, so trade up to a big comfy luxo-barge
9. You realise you cannot park properly anymore, and the insurance is getting expensive again, back into your cheapo shoebox.
10. Hearse

Supercell

pburns wrote:

why buy an M3, GTI, hot Civic etc when the politicans & gardai are increasingly targeting speed. It's becoming impossible to drive even 'sensibly' fast in this country. And I think driving a performance car is gonna be like a red-rag-to-a-bull for the cops...

Does anyone really need anything above say 130-150bhp (or slightly more in anything 5-series size or above)???

As other have posted , its not just about top speed, there far more to driving than straight line speed.

Afer making the transition from a an F650 BMW bike to cars the acceleration and handling is the one thing I miss most about bikes.

I mean 0-60mph in about 3 secs on two wheels is just a huge adrenalin rush, makes you feel good, so is zipping in and out of traffic, cornering etc etc.
Irish weather isnt really suited to this most of the year so am now driving a car.

If I could get insured reasonably on a hot hatch or any other pokey car that came close to the old bikes performance i'd have one in a second!
First have to build up a full no claims discount first and i'll be there.

For the record I'm no spring chicken at 35 , and don't forsee ever growing out of just enjoying being propelled from A to B in fun fashion, even if thats just overtaking, holding tight to the wheel accelerating away from standing still etc etc rather than just wanting to go 200mph down the road.

nialler

prospect wrote:

It makes sense to have performance to a point. But I have to agree with peasant about wanting to use the available power.

When I am in my Alfa, I know I can easily outpace a lot of other cars on the road, and as peasant says, I have found myslef overtaking cars, because I can. This is obviously not the way to be on the roads.

Yet, when I am in my Megane, I am happy to tootle along and enjoy the comfort of the drive.

So, I suppose we nearly all go through the same phases:

1. Want a car. Drive a banger.
2. Young and out to impress, drive a cheap car that 'looks' like it can perform.
3. Getting places in life and can afford to make that car a reality, so enter the hot hatch, or affordable sports car.
4. Doing well, insurance getting cheaper, more upmarket performance car.
5. Family !!! Enter the family car.
6. Family getting older, get a comfortable big car with performance.
7. Kids growing up, missing the performance. But you have plenty of money now (no mortgage) so you buy a fully fledged cool machine. This is called the mid-life crisis.
8. You cop on that you are too old for that, so trade up to a big comfy luxo-barge
9. You realise you cannot park properly anymore, and the insurance is getting expensive again, back into your cheapo shoebox.
10. Hearse

lol, well said!

I'm driving the luxo-barge so not long before the hearse (at 37 insurance is still getting cheaper though).

Eoin

Dyflin wrote:

Yeah but the point is, the car can never reach it's driving potential so why bother? Be it a super car or hot hatch?

Because there is much less compromise with a hot hatch or performance car. The running costs may be slightly higher, but it is grand to use a daily driver.

Larry David

I drive an XK8 because:

It's fast.
It's comfortable.
It's high-spec.
It accelerates great.
It looks great.
It handles great.
It's the car I always wanted.

It's amazing for fast accelaration (overtaking & taking off), but I also let it rip at night on the M1 the odd time - great rush. I generally drive fast (just a bit faster than the limit, but never in built-up areas), but sensibly.

And its also amazingly comfortable & smooth for just driving at regular speeds or cruising around locally - so why not?
Contrary to what the OP is implying, it's not as if the car gets sh*tter just because I can't drive it at full speed all the time - it's a pleasure to drive in all situations and at all speeds.

I don't forsee ever growing out of just enjoying being propelled from A to B in fun fashion, even if thats just overtaking, holding tight to the wheel accelerating away from standing still etc etc rather than just wanting to go 200mph down the road.

I fully agree. It'll always be fun to drive a good fast car! Let the squares & sensible prudes convince themselves otherwise!

Captain Trips

Not to hijack the post but would it be reasonable to stand for a political party for the purposes of derestricting certain roads (e.g., M8, M1, M7). The quality of these is superb.

France is at 130 kmph. I wouldn't mind lower speed limits in built up areas around cities if motorways could be at 150+. Maybe restrict it to an advanced license or something like the Insitute of Irish Motoring advanced test thing.

There's plenty of reasons to get a performance car,

SOund of the engine, exhaust
Acceleration, mayeb more than top speed. Even on autobahns you don't get to drive for very long at 200+ as there is always traffic
Bringing your car to a track (e.g., plenty in the UK, cheap to get to)

Likewise, there is little reason to buy a 40 inch LCD TV when a 14 inch will do the job - but when you pay the tax, you want to get the most you can maybe !

Larry David

Captain Trips wrote:

Not to hijack the post but would it be reasonable to stand for a political party for the purposes of derestricting certain roads (e.g., M8, M1, M7). The quality of these is superb.

France is at 130 kmph. I wouldn't mind lower speed limits in built up areas around cities if motorways could be at 150+. Maybe restrict it to an advanced license or something like the Insitute of Irish Motoring advanced test thing.

There's plenty of reasons to get a performance car,

SOund of the engine, exhaust
Acceleration, mayeb more than top speed. Even on autobahns you don't get to drive for very long at 200+ as there is always traffic
Bringing your car to a track (e.g., plenty in the UK, cheap to get to)

Likewise, there is little reason to buy a 40 inch LCD TV when a 14 inch will do the job - but when you pay the tax, you want to get the most you can maybe !

Get back on topic, or start a new one.

peasant

Captain Trips wrote:

...Maybe restrict it to an advanced license or something like the Insitute of Irish Motoring advanced test thing.

Oh yeah ...the Insitute of Irish Motoring advanced licence to kill ...kill all the unsuspecting, inexperienced and untrained (possibly even unwashed:D ) masses who have trouble even coping with 120 km/h.

Mhhhm, yes ...that would go down well

On bit of a speed trip there, Captain ?

You might want to think that one over again before you're looking for political support.

Gatster

The cars I've always really liked/wanted have been the fast(er) ones. Saying that, it's not all about speed, I love the handling of my missus's Puma, I loved my mini for the same reason (although it was a death trap).
Have to agree though, my other post about an M3 is sort of answered by this post, it'd kill me being sat on the M50 knowing what it could do, but on the other hand knowing that it is what it is would be a good feeling. I'm confused, so I'll stop now...:rolleyes:

Rudolph Claus

This country`s getting to be a joke alright. people should be able to buy whatever car they wish to, the way this country is going we`ll all be driving around in 3rd gear. All them roads reduced to 80m/h is laughable you`d do it 2nd gear. If they lower the already ridiculous limits anymore they may start selling cars with only 3gears in Ireland.

And all this because of 3/400 deaths a year from a 5million population with no proper driving test,,, hardly a "genuine" castrophy now is it :rolleyes:

Anan1

Larry David wrote:

Get back on topic, or start a new one.

Are you his dad?

peasant

Nuttzy wrote:

This country`s getting to be a joke alright. people should be able to buy whatever car they wish to, :

Errrmmm ...I'm not aware of any legislation preventing you from BUYING whatever car you like.

Max_Damage

Larry David wrote:

I generally drive fast (just a bit faster than the limit, but never in built-up areas), but sensibly.

HA! That's what they all say before they wrap the car around a tree!

Supercell

Max_Damage wrote:

HA! That's what they all say before they wrap the car around a tree!

*Yawn* predictable.

So max damage ..you never drive above the speed limit ever ever ever, may I shine the halo on your micra?

Hotwheels

Real performance cars, imo, are Ferrari, Porshe, BMW M3 (the nice 1) etc, people buy them because they can...

Performance cars suffer do from the same problems as standard cars, no matter how well built it is, its the nut that holds the wheel you have to worry about...:D

My advice to anyone who wants to drive fast is to take a trip to Mondello, and you'll find out just how ordinary a driver you are...and if you really want to have fun take a M11 round, and bring an extra set of rear tyres, you'll need them...:D

cantdecide

no time to read all posts.

bottom of the range cars p*ss me off too. it's not so much their slowness.

bmw designers have given us 316,318, 320,323,325,328,330 and usually a couple iof M3s. yet paddy always wants a 316. check on autotrader, you'll find more 'nice' cars per head of population in the north than in the south. IMO it's not a vrt thing, it's a culural thing.

most of us can get a quick, luxurious, prestige, big, small or oddball car at a good price, if we want. if you're spending something like €15k on a clio when you can get so many better cars, i think you need your head examined.

it really is no wonder why 60,000 cars have come from elsewhere. car nuts just can't get satisfaction over here. the money is secondary to most people.

Kersh

Ferrari, Porshe, BMW M3 (the nice 1) etc, people buy them because they can...

Not really... twas my dream, so I got one. Most people buy them for status.

cancan

Slow cars tend to have crap brakes - keep that in mind the next time a kid runs out in front of you.
There are many occasions where having surplus power can save your life - truck skidding in your direction - surplus power give you an option besides braking.

Just as there are situations where excess power can kill you, it can also save you too.

junkyard

It has to be said though the fun is gone out of motoring, its just tedious now for sure with all the extra traffic and speed restrictions. I'm seriously considering selling my M5 and buying a helicopter, they're not much more to buy and run then a serious performance car and at least the sky isn't full of traffic........ yet.

Incidentally, Mods, any chance of starting an aircraft forum I'd say the time is about right now and I'm sure I'm not the only one taking to the sky or at least interested in it.