Religion Homework?

Zynks

My 7 year old arrived home today from school with religion homework. He had to read some sort of prayer. I am surprised that at this point when the credibility of the church is so low and Ireland is becoming a multi-cultural society, that religion can be imposed in such a way.

I had a chat with my son and explained to him about different religions and paganism, and said that whatever he decides to believe in it is his choice and no one elses. I also told him he can tell his teachers about that, and that I said he has no obligation of praying or anything related to it unless he decides to do so.

I wonder what kind of reaction he will get in school if he decides not to pray. He knows how to stand his ground in a rational way, but I am not sure about the others... any opinions?

Nevyn

I would suggest that you go and have a talk with his teacher about it, find out what the school/class policy is.

phog

Did you know before selecting this school that religion would be a subject - if so then how can you describe it as being imposed? If you intended that your child was not to participate in religion in the school why didn't you meet the head teacher on enrolment and explain this rather than having a 7 yo batting for himself now? I think it's a terrible injustice on the child.
At this stage I think you should meet the head or class teacher and request your child is excused during religion, in our local school this is usually done by the pupil leaving their class and attending another (senior or junior) during religion classes.

Zynks

Thaedydal wrote:

I would suggest that you go and have a talk with his teacher about it, find out what the school/class policy is.

Good point. I will follow up on it. In any case, religion is an issue down to human rights level as far as I can see. As far as I know, Ireland signed this declaration. Here are some excerpts:

Article 18- Universal Declaration of Human Rights
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance

Article 21 - Universal Declaration of Human Rights
... (2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.
....

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages.

If Ireland as a state supports the declaration and chooses to provide the free education by funding "public" schools run by non-public organisations, these schools should inherit the obligations and commitments.

Zynks

phog wrote:

Did you know before selecting this school that religion would be a subject - if so then how can you describe it as being imposed?

Selecting the school? We didn't have many choices. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the school a lot, but do you think I have to give up on my principles to secure the place?

Of course the subject is imposed. So are maths, English, Irish and so on. I only have an issue with religion. This should be optional. If my son decides he wants it, I support him. If he decides it's not for him I will also back him. Wouldn't you?

phog wrote:

If you intended that your child was not to participate in religion in the school why didn't you meet the head teacher on enrolment and explain this rather than having a 7 yo batting for himself now? I think it's a terrible injustice on the child.

I respect your opinion, but I don't totally agree. I will do my part talking to the teacher and principle, but ultimately the decision is his, and I want him to take ownership of that decision.

phog wrote:

At this stage I think you should meet the head or class teacher and request your child is excused during religion, in our local school this is usually done by the pupil leaving their class and attending another (senior or junior) during religion classes.

I will if he decides he doesn't want it. He said he will think about it.

ArthurDent

Zynks wrote:

My 7 year old arrived home today from school with religion homework. He had to read some sort of prayer. I am surprised that at this point when the credibility of the church is so low and Ireland is becoming a multi-cultural society, that religion can be imposed in such a way.

I had a chat with my son and explained to him about different religions and paganism, and said that whatever he decides to believe in it is his choice and no one elses. I also told him he can tell his teachers about that, and that I said he has no obligation of praying or anything related to it unless he decides to do so.

I wonder what kind of reaction he will get in school if he decides not to pray. He knows how to stand his ground in a rational way, but I am not sure about the others... any opinions?

Zynks did you not know the ethos of the school before your son started? If you are not of the denomination of the school - did you not consider that this would be an issue? Has your child participated in religion up until now and why is it a problem now but not before now?
Legally you have a right to withdraw your child from religious instruction ( or anything else that is against your morasls/ethos/beliefs) BUT the school is not obliged to provide supervision for your child if you withdraw them from this class and you could be asked to supervise him yourself.
IMO even if you chose to withdraw him from this class it is very difficult to remove him from every aspect of denominational instruction - prayers, asrtwork/music related to religion - especially in a year that has sacrament preparation.

Honestly I think you are being a bit unfair on your kid if you haven't already discussed all these issues with teachers/principals - I certainly wouldn't leave my 7 year old to explain all of this himself to other kids/teacher.

qwertplaywert

i got told off for not praying a couple o times in secondery...im 14
im ateiest and have told teeachers,most tell me to shut up and stop ''being cheeky''

Zynks

Arthur, overall you are correct, but the situation is wrong. The vast majority of schools in Ireland are funded by the state (our tax money) and run by the "preferred" religious organisations. I can deal with that, but the effective coercion of defenseless kids into adopting one or another religion is fundamentally wrong. Most parents don't have the luxury of choosing a school (at least we didn't, but that is another story), and even when they do, it can be at a high price and maybe not the best for the kid, except for the approach to religion.

iguana

A huge amount of schools in Ireland are built on land owned by the Catholic Church. Due to this the local bishops have a strong level of control over schools. A friend of mine worked in a Diocesan office a few years back and all teaching appointments in schools on their land can be vetoed by their office.

There are few non/multi-denominational schools in Ireland, and those usually have long waiting lists.

Zynks

qwertplaywert wrote:

i got told off for not praying a couple o times in secondery...im 14
im ateiest and have told teeachers,most tell me to shut up and stop ''being cheeky''

Thanks for sharing your story.
In my view it is your right to choose to be part of it or not, and it is important that you stand by your decision. You have the right of not being bullied or coerced to join.
On the other hand, you must also respect their choices.

Here is a line I really like:

To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.
Sophy Burnham

Zynks

iguana wrote:

A huge amount of schools in Ireland are built on land owned by the Catholic Church. Due to this the local bishops have a strong level of control over schools. A friend of mine worked in a Diocesan office a few years back and all teaching appointments in schools on their land can be vetoed by their office.

There are few non/multi-denominational schools in Ireland, and those usually have long waiting lists.

Thanks Iguana,
Yes, I was aware of the control of the church through land ownership. There was a case a few years back of a group somewhere is Co. Galway that wanted access to an abandoned school so they could teach their children without religious ties - and also because there was no school places available in the region. Guess what? The Dept. of Education blocked it. Not sure how that ended.

Discussing school land ownership makes me think of the commotion in the Dail this week regarding the church only paying for 10% of the child abuse compensation, and Bertie saying the religious orders could not afford anything else. Maybe €400 million in school land transferred to the state could be a good start!

BrianCalgary

When you get right down to it the parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children. I teach Sunday School and it bothers me that some parents rely on me for their kids religion education.

On top of that our kids have to learn respect. Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

Zynks

BrianCalgary wrote:

When you get right down to it the parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children.

Couldn't agree more.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I teach Sunday School and it bothers me that some parents rely on me for their kids religion education.

Sorry Brian, but this reminds me of the football training where I take my eldest kid. Normally there are something like 100 kids training and maybe 25 parents watching. The trainer started asking parents if they think he is running a creche. I guess this laziness and lack of parenting preparation is not exclusive to sports...

On top of that our kids have to learn respect. Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

About respect yes, definitely. I want my children to respect all religions, sexual inclination, cultural and religious origins and differing opinions. But I also want them to stand up for what they decide to believe in and be respected for that.
I actually want my kid exposed to religionS (upper case S is intentional), but on an informative way, without coercion or sense of exclusion if he decides it is not for him.
At an early age they take things in much easier than adults, but also have less ability to judge and decide. Imposed religion in an environment that is responsible for their academic education is just wrong.
If they make it voluntary and my son signs up, great (and there is a chance that he would). Otherwise, no!

Fast_Mover

You do have a right to withdraw your child from R.E enshirned in law. Rule 69 of National Schools= No pupil shall recieve, or be present at, Religious Instruction of which his parents or guardian dissapprove.

But im wondering if you have a problem with your child reading a prayer for homework are you going to allow him make his Communion/Confirmation? Have you thought about what your child is going to do/feel when all the rest are off practicing for it/getting excited about their day?

An Educate Together school is your answer=no one particular religion, culture or social identity may be promoted or favoured.

Zynks

Fast_Mover wrote:

But im wondering if you have a problem with your child reading a prayer for homework are you going to allow him make his Communion/Confirmation?

My point is quite simple, really:

Religion homework = forced and therefore wrong

Communion/confirmation = voluntary and therefore it is my son's decision

I am defending my son's right to decide by himself how he wants to handle his relationship with god, once and if he decides that there is one. And this decision should be made without any kind of pressure from anyone.
If I remove him from the class, before he makes his own decision I will be putting him on an awkward position and reacting to intollerance with intollerance. This is not the answer.

MrJoeSoap

BrianCalgary wrote:

Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

I agree with your sentiments in principle, but having only recently left the Irish education system I see it as massively one-sided and completely aimed towards Christianity, especially Primary School. We had to stand and say prayers at the start and end of every school day, and at lunchtime. We had numerous visits from the local priest as well etc...

Secondary school was a bit more open, but still only barely covered the major religions in 5th and 6th year, and I don't remember ever hearing about Atheism. I had a brief look in my younger brothers religion book a while back and the secion on Atheism is fairly diabolical by any standards, but I suppose thats all covered in the science books .

I'd love to know what the criteria is by which they decide how many pages of the religion book each belief actually gets.

ArthurDent

BrianCalgary wrote:

When you get right down to it the parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children. I teach Sunday School and it bothers me that some parents rely on me for their kids religion education.

On top of that our kids have to learn respect. Why not have him participate in the religion class, he'll learn all about that religion so he can make an informed choice when he is older (I believe this applies to all religions BTW), remain silent during prayer as a sign of respect for the believers around him.

Brian
I absolutely agree with you that parents are responsible for religious and other education - I think in Ireland we have had a very laissez faire attitude to it, quite happy to accept the education provided freely by the catholic church ( when no other free education was available) but now that demographics have changed and/or people are no longer practising catholics we are surprised that one of two things happen - either our child is coming home from school being taught something we may not approve of (ie religious instruction) or that more and more we are being asked to participate in their religious instruction - more and more roles for parents in sacrament preparation. There is a fundamental disconnect in the type of education system many parents want for their children and the one we've inherited, but most people don't educate themselves as to what it can mean and then are frustrated, but unwilling to do anything about it. I don't send my kids to a denominational school - they go to an ET school - one I helped to set up - precisely for the reasons descriobed by OP, their religious instruction is my responsibility and not the school's. I want a school to provide information on different faith systems, but it is my and my husbands responsibility (and our church's)to instruct our kids in their faith. I feel sorry for deeply committed catholics or COI or muslim or whatever parents/teachers in schools trying to keep their ethos alive when so many of the parents and children/parents do not believe in their ethos. In an ideal world (or Ireland anyway) - there would be faith-basaed schools that you could send your child to if deeply committed to that particular faith (state funded maybe yes/maybe no) and very many more multi / non-denominational state-funded schools that do not provide religious instruction during school hours, but do provide information on different religions.
FYI ET have recently announced that the country needs 400 multidenominational schools to ensure access to those parents that chose such an education for their children.
http://www.educatetogether.ie/pdf_downloads/Business%20Plan_20061025_Exec_Summ.pdf

mountainyman

Zynks wrote:

Arthur, overall you are correct, but the situation is wrong.

Well why not get your 7 year old to fight that battle. Don't you do it, let him do it:rolleyes:
We have a thirteen page discussion about this running at the moment by the way.

MM

phog

Zynks wrote:

My point is quite simple, really:

Religion homework = forced and therefore wrong

Communion/confirmation = voluntary and therefore it is my son's decision

I am defending my son's right to decide by himself how he wants to handle his relationship with god, once and if he decides that there is one. And this decision should be made without any kind of pressure from anyone.
If I remove him from the class, before he makes his own decision I will be putting him on an awkward position and reacting to intollerance with intollerance. This is not the answer.

If you allow your son to participate in the religion class then how can you object to him getting homework? If your child was a foreign national then Irish may be exempt, would withdrawing him from class be putting him in an awkward position?

originally Posted by Zynks
Of course the subject is imposed. So are maths, English, Irish and so on. I only have an issue with religion. This should be optional. If my son decides he wants it, I support him. If he decides it's not for him I will also back him. Wouldn't you?

Yes, but you seem to want him to suck it and see but you don't want him coming home with religous homework, is it ok for him to have maths, english or irish homework - if this is the case you don't really have an argument about it.
Anyway is 7 too young to be making this decision? At what point did you decide that your child's religion was to be chosen by himself?

Zynks

phog wrote:

Yes, but you seem to want him to suck it and see but you don't want him coming home with religious homework, is it ok for him to have maths, english or irish homework - if this is the case you don't really have an argument about it.

Study of maths, science, languages is universally recognised as key to a child's intellectual development, Religion is not. Some people will even argue that historically religion has been a comforting alternative to recognising we don't have all the answers and doing something about it (the should-be-defunct papal infallibility seems to back that theory).
But, in any case, what benefit can a homework based on prayers bring to a child's development, intellectually or spiritually? Is it that somebody thinks that by forcing kids to prey at home that the chances of successful "recruitment" will improve?

phog wrote:

Anyway is 7 too young to be making this decision? At what point did you decide that your child's religion was to be chosen by himself?

No, I don't think 7 is too young. If a child feels comfortable with what s/he sees, then the child can make a decision. But if I am wrong, and a child is too young to decide, isn't it fundamentally wrong to push religion down their throat?
About the stage at which I decided to "delegate" these decision, actually before my first child was born I made a promise that I would respect my children as individuals and support any decisions they made or inclinations they had regarding religion, sexuality and career. So, I am just following up on that.
While respecting their individuality in such a way, I also do my best to provide them with advice, guidance and protection. And it is in the matter of protection that I feel I must protect them from having their religious beliefs being artificially moulded in such an unfair way.
Let me clarify this again, it is not that I don't want my child to be a catholic, I just don't want him to be forced to become one.

robindch

> And this decision should be made without any kind of pressure from anyone.

Good on you.

> If I remove him from the class, before he makes his own decision I will be
> putting him on an awkward position and reacting to intollerance with
> intollerance. This is not the answer.

Unfortunately, you have come a cropper on one of religion's clever little ankle-traps and there's no easy way to avoid organized religion's use of social pressure to make people conform. Take your kid out of that class, and will inevitably feel left out which is awful for a child. Leave your kid in, and they get indoctrinated against your will.

Personally, I'd ask around some of the parents in your kid's class -- a bit of mutual support will go a long way in this. If you can get more than one or two who'd also like to get their kids out of this class or get the teaching method or the teacher changed, then it should be easy to approach the principal as a group and have the request honored, and your kid won't feel left out either.

> Is it that somebody thinks that by forcing kids to prey at home that the
> chances of successful "recruitment" will improve?

Yes. That's why religions control so many schools and spend so much time on outreach and youth programs of one kind or another. It's all about recruitment.

phog

Zynks wrote:

Study of maths, science, languages is universally recognised as key to a child's intellectual development, Religion is not. Some people will even argue that historically religion has been a comforting alternative to recognising we don't have all the answers and doing something about it (the should-be-defunct papal infallibility seems to back that theory).
But, in any case, what benefit can a homework based on prayers bring to a child's development, intellectually or spiritually? Is it that somebody thinks that by forcing kids to prey at home that the chances of successful "recruitment" will improve?


No, I don't think 7 is too young. If a child feels comfortable with what s/he sees, then the child can make a decision. But if I am wrong, and a child is too young to decide, isn't it fundamentally wrong to push religion down their throat?
About the stage at which I decided to "delegate" these decision, actually before my first child was born I made a promise that I would respect my children as individuals and support any decisions they made or inclinations they had regarding religion, sexuality and career. So, I am just following up on that.
While respecting their individuality in such a way, I also do my best to provide them with advice, guidance and protection. And it is in the matter of protection that I feel I must protect them from having their religious beliefs being artificially moulded in such an unfair way.
Let me clarify this again, it is not that I don't want my child to be a catholic, I just don't want him to be forced to become one.

You continuly use the word "force" who's forcing? has you child been reprimanded for not doing his homework? I think you have a problem with relegion and would like your son to conform to your view but you also want the child to believe that it was his decision.
I live in a small village (1 shop, 1 pub, 1 butcher, 1 school and 1 church) both my kids attended the local school and both had friends that were excused from religion at the request of their parents - I don't recall either my kids or their kids ever feeling awkward or uncared for about this practice.
You need to make a decision on whether you want your child to participate or not - if yes then how can you complain about homework, if not (and in you're case I think this might be the right option) then meet the teacher and request alternative classes during religion.

up for anything

Zynks wrote:

My point is quite simple, really:

Religion homework = forced and therefore wrong

Communion/confirmation = voluntary and therefore it is my son's decision

At the age of seven your child is already receiving religious instruction geared towards First Communion. If he makes the decision to receive his First Communion he will have to do the homework. If he makes this decision a couple of weeks before the Communion it'll be too late to do the homework and he'll have to wait a year before he can make it.

TempestSabre

Zynks wrote:

My 7 year old arrived home today from school with religion homework. He had to read some sort of prayer. I am surprised that at this point when the credibility of the church is so low and Ireland is becoming a multi-cultural society, that religion can be imposed in such a way.

...

I wonder what kind of reaction he will get in school if he decides not to pray. He knows how to stand his ground in a rational way, but I am not sure about the others... any opinions?

I guess they'll wonder how a parent can leave their child to resolve an issue that the parent such have done. Probably feel sorry for him, and be annoyed that you never told them YOU didn't want him to have religious instruction.

How can you not know that a religious school is going to teach religion at some point. The schools probably named after a saint.

Its a free country, and there are schools that don't teach it. If you believe that strongly about avoid religion then living in a predominately RC country is a bit shortsighted isn't it.

Zynks

TempestSabre wrote:

I guess they'll wonder how a parent can leave their child to resolve an issue that the parent such have done. Probably feel sorry for him, and be annoyed that you never told them YOU didn't want him to have religious instruction.

Maybe I am not making myself clear enough, or maybe it just is too hard to believe that a parent actually values his child's individuality enough to give him the choice and protect his right to decide his religious life.
Maybe you will consider believing me if I tell you that in my early years I lived in a country run by a military dictatorship that killed and tortured people that dared to think differently to them. Victims of this government included parents of kids in my classroom, and even a friend of mine when I was a teenager. The one thing that I learned is that your rights to privacy and individuality are precious and should be non-negotiable. Now, do you think I give a damn about what the teachers will think about it?

TempestSabre wrote:

How can you not know that a religious school is going to teach religion at some point. The schools probably named after a saint.

Your point being....?

TempestSabre wrote:

If you believe that strongly about avoid religion then living in a predominately RC country is a bit shortsighted isn't it.

Since the church has a virtual monopoly on education in Ireland (and funded with tax payers money), either it is your views that are characterised by shortsightedness or they are an example of inflexibility and intolerance. I would expect a comment like that in an Islamic fundamentalist nation, but not in Ireland in 2006.

PS, are you assuming I am not Irish by any chance?

TempestSabre

YOU asked for opinions. its not about views its about pure logic. Doesn't matter if you are from Mars. Thats not the issue. Lets make it simple.

YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You can't be surprised that its being taught.

You created this situation not the school and not the child. But you expect the child and school to sort it out.

Its like sending your kid into a sweet shop and complaining when he comes home with sweets. :rolleyes:

Zynks

TempestSabre wrote:

YOU asked for opinions. its not about views its about pure logic. Doesn't matter if you are from Mars.

At least that's a change of tone. Yes, I asked for opinions about how I could expect others to react if my son decided he didn't want to prey or was not interested in religion as taught in his school. I acknowledge your views and they confirm my suspicion of what to expect.

TempestSabre wrote:

YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You can't be surprised that its being taught.

What's the story with the uppercase "YOU" thing?
Anyhow, let's agree to disagree. In my view religion is not a subject, it is a personal choice - which schools can help develop once the choice is made. If you have kids, I really hope you allow them to see it as personal choice.

TempestSabre wrote:

You created this situation not the school and not the child. But you expect the child and school to sort it out.

I never said I would not get involved. I said that if he felt that he was being coerced to do anything related to religion that he could tell them that I said he has no obligation to do it.
Interestingly enough, the chat was quite similar to the one I had with him about bullying...

TempestSabre wrote:

Its like sending your kid into a sweet shop and complaining when he comes home with sweets. :rolleyes:

Not really, if I send my kid to a sweet shop he knows he can choose which sweets he wants.
He understands the importance of his education and takes it seriously and it is a worrying that religion is thrown into the same package in such a way.

I acknowledge your views and I think we will just have to agree to disagree. If consensus was so easy to reach, boards.ie would be blank.

robindch

> YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You
> can't be surprised that its being taught.

Perhaps it's been a while since you were at school and you may have forgotten what it's like, but generally in Ireland, it is close to impossible to get kids into a school which is not viewed by one religious outfit or another as a recruiting ground for the next generation of indoctrinated humans.

TempestSabre

Zynks wrote:

At least that's a change of tone. Yes, I asked for opinions about how I could expect others to react if my son decided he didn't want to prey or was not interested in religion as taught in his school. I acknowledge your views and they confirm my suspicion of what to expect.

Any change of tone is in your imagination.

Zynks wrote:

What's the story with the uppercase "YOU" thing?
Anyhow, let's agree to disagree. In my view religion is not a subject, it is a personal choice - which schools can help develop once the choice is made. If you have kids, I really hope you allow them to see it as personal choice.

Its called emphasis.

Theres no logic to what you are saying. If you don't want the kid to have religious education then don't send them to a school with religious education. or at the very least let them know of your wishes. You've done never. Its either laziness on your part or you want to cause conflict for some reason.

Zynks wrote:

I never said I would not get involved. I said that if he felt that he was being coerced to do anything related to religion that he could tell them that I said he has no obligation to do it. Interestingly enough, the chat was quite similar to the one I had with him about bullying...

You have created this situation, and now you are going to circumvent the authority of the teachers and school by not dealing with the issue in this way. Thats just pathetic IMO.

Zynks wrote:

Not really, if I send my kid to a sweet shop he knows he can choose which sweets he wants.He understands the importance of his education and takes it seriously and it is a worrying that religion is thrown into the same package in such a way.

Obviously you don't understand the analogy. Forget it.

If you were really worried, you should have made arrangments with the school before now or chosen a different school.

Zynks wrote:

I acknowledge your views and I think we will just have to agree to disagree. If consensus was so easy to reach, boards.ie would be blank.

I don't what there is to debate. Your inaction has brought you and your child to this point. Nothing else. Its not like teaching religion was a sudden unpredictable change of policy. You've had time to deal with this and you simply haven't.

TempestSabre

robindch wrote:

> YOU sent your child to a religious school were religion is taught. Therefore You
> can't be surprised that its being taught.

Perhaps it's been a while since you were at school and you may have forgotten what it's like, but generally in Ireland, it is close to impossible to get kids into a school which is not viewed by one religious outfit or another as a recruiting ground for the next generation of indoctrinated humans.

Certainly its impossible if you don't try in the first place. My friends moved back to Ireland from another country and got their kids into a non religious school. its not the nearest school to them and it requires some effort to get them there and collected.

But if you send your kids to the local parish school, you can't be SURPRISED when religion is being taught? Thats nonsense.

robindch wrote:

Don't assume that the desire to get into local schools is about what is 'handy'. It is often about mixing with immediate neighbours, about avoiding the need for adding one more car-based school run onto the currently creaking traffic infrastructure, about avoid the need to have 2 cars in a family etc

Thats just excuses. No ones needs two cars, and people can still mix with immediate neighbours if they make an effort to do so. You makle your own choices, and live with them.

robindch

> Certainly its impossible if you don't try in the first place.

I notice that you haven't addressed the point that I was making: that there are far, far more religious schools in this country, than there are non-religious ones, and that the non-religious ones are way over-subscribed.

(your second reply was made to a post which wasn't mine )

TempestSabre

robindch wrote:

> Certainly its impossible if you don't try in the first place.

I notice that you haven't addressed the point that I was making: that there are far, far more religious schools in this country, than there are non-religious ones, and that the non-religious ones are way over-subscribed.

Thats a duh point. What exactly do you expect in Ireland where religion has been and still is such a huge part of the culture and everyday for centuries? Do you expect that to vanish overnight? Its only in the last 20-30 years that the church is in decline. Which is no time in comparision.

There was a similar thread somewhere else about this. There are choices. You need to look them up. The religious ones in my area are over subscribed probably more than the non religious ones. Its looking like no one will be able to start in the local parish school till almost 6yrs old. Who knows what will happen over the next few years. We've been in the area for decades but we won't get a space. Its done purely on the age of the child nothing else. So you could move here tomorrow and get space before us if you kids are a day younger than ours. We'll probably be forced outside of the area.

Still this is getting to be a tired argument. It starts of with people saying theres no choice near them, then you find theres a non religious one in their area.

But if I do send them to a non religious school I won't be surprised by religion not being taught. :rolleyes:

robindch wrote:

(your second reply was made to a post which wasn't mine )

Well I'll let the admins know then because I got a subscription mail with that post in it.

robindch

> Do you expect that to vanish overnight?

If religious indoctrination were made illegal in state-funded schools, then yes, it would disappear pretty much overnight.

However, religions still have a fair amount of political clout. Last week in the UK, the government's mooted plans to mandate that religious schools should have at least 25% of their intake from other religious castes were junked, since all the religions cried foul.

One point worth considering: people wouldn't accept Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein or communist schools. So why do they accept the existence of catholic, protestant (etc) schools?

(btw, that other quote came from RainyDay here.)

dalila

If you don't mind me asking Zynks, have you approached the teacher at all? I teach in a Church of Ireland school and we have a lot of children of different religious beliefs in our school. The school ethos is Church of Ireland and as such we teach religion to the children. However, if I was aware of parent objection to their child taking part in the lessons there would be no problem at all for me to give them alternative work whether in the classroom or in another classroom. If, however, I was unaware of the parents feelings, I would naturally presume that the parents were aware of the ethos of the school and therefore had no objection to the child being involved in the religion classes. I cannot speak for all teachers but in my case, and that of many of my colleagues, if you had objected to the homework the child need not have done it and a quick note from you to explain why would have been fine.

Zynks

dalila wrote:

If you don't mind me asking Zynks, have you approached the teacher at all?

No, I haven't but I intend to. The original post was a request for advice before I do it since this situation is new for me.

dalila wrote:

I cannot speak for all teachers but in my case, and that of many of my colleagues, if you had objected to the homework the child need not have done it and a quick note from you to explain why would have been fine.

If that is the response I find from my child's teacher I will be very happy indeed, thanks!

Zynks

TempestSabre wrote:

Any change of tone is in your imagination.

I was referring to your comment: "If you believe that strongly about avoid religion then living in a predominately RC country is a bit shortsighted isn't it." That comment only made sense if you thought I am an immigrant and indicates a rather intolerance position in my view.

TempestSabre wrote:

Its called emphasis.

OK, I misinterpreted it. In netiquette, it is considered shouting.

TempestSabre wrote:

Theres no logic to what you are saying. If you don't want the kid to have religious education then don't send them to a school with religious education.

My issue is not with religious education, but with the way it is done. Based on your logic, children would still be beaten in schools just because that is how it was done and everybody should know about it.
Certain changes are good, and this is one that I feel would be good for my child. I will take dalila's suggestion and hope to find a tolerant response.

TempestSabre wrote:

or at the very least let them know of your wishes. You've done never. Its either laziness on your part or you want to cause conflict for some reason.

I understand your point but don't agree. Questioning the status quo can be a source of conflict, but not necessarily. Conflict is normally a result of intolerance on one or more sides and is not my objective. Change is the result I am targeting.

TempestSabre wrote:

You have created this situation, and now you are going to circumvent the authority of the teachers and school by not dealing with the issue in this way. Thats just pathetic IMO.

:eek:

TempestSabre wrote:

Obviously you don't understand the analogy. Forget it.

OK, forgotten.

TempestSabre wrote:

If you were really worried, you should have made arrangments with the school before now or chosen a different school. I don't what there is to debate. Your inaction has brought you and your child to this point. Nothing else. Its not like teaching religion was a sudden unpredictable change of policy. You've had time to deal with this and you simply haven't.

As I said before, I will be talking to the teacher. I think you are imagining a different scenario. There is no conflict at this stage and there is no need to change schools because of this. I do disagree with the forceful nature of the way religion is handled, but there are options within the school from what I can gather. It is down to my child's preferences and all I did was make him aware of what I believe are his rights.
By the way, I did enquire about how religion was handled when we signed him up. I was told there was no involvement of priests and that religion was handled in a "light" way with respect for the kids individuality.

dhidra

Zynks wrote:

Here is a line I really like:

Quote:
To believe in God or in a guiding force because someone tells you to is the height of stupidity. We are given senses to receive our information within. With our own eyes we see, and with our own skin we feel. With our intelligence, it is intended that we understand. But each person must puzzle it out for himself or herself.
Sophy Burnham

would you tell your child that there was no santa claus and let him decide whether he wanted to believe you or not?
at 7 years of age, a child does not posess the maturity to assess the religion of the catholic church and decide whether he believes in it or not.
there is a lot more the the Alive-O programme than praying.. ask the teacher about it.

Zynks

dhidra wrote:

would you tell your child that there was no santa claus and let him decide whether he wanted to believe you or not?
at 7 years of age, a child does not possess the maturity to assess the religion of the catholic church and decide whether he believes in it or not.
there is a lot more the the Alive-O programme than praying.. ask the teacher about it.

Santa Claus is quite an analogy I never say to my kids that god exists, nor did I say he doesn't. The closest we got to discussing this was when he asked me if god was dead? I explained that some people believed in god and others didn't. For the people who do believe in him, he is alive, but not in the way we are alive (heart beat, breathing, etc). I tried explaining about omnipresence, which appeared to help him a bit. He also asked if god was male or female, but that's another story.
I am happy with the principle that god is not exclusive to any church, and as such I would avoid talking specifically of the church to my kids. I do however think he is able to have a feel about god's existence.

TempestSabre

Zynks wrote:

I was referring to your comment: "If you believe that strongly about avoid religion then living in a predominately RC country is a bit shortsighted isn't it." That comment only made sense if you thought I am an immigrant and indicates a rather intolerance position in my view.

No it means why continue to live in a country if you feel strongly against religion in schools. It applies equally to everyone who lives here. Emmigration to better oneself, or your family has been part of Irish history for generations. I make no distinctions about where people are from. Only that people living here could not be unaware of the Irish school system. So don't invent meanings that don't exist to make it about something its not.:rolleyes:

Zynks wrote:

My issue is not with religious education, but with the way it is done.

If thats the case why did you not find out in more detail how education is taught before your child started? If you were that particular about the methods used, I can't believe you just did nothing about it, and waited till now.

It like a person who calls out directions after you've passed the turn.

Zynks wrote:

Based on your logic, children would still be beaten in schools just because that is how it was done and everybody should know about it.

That makes no sense. Who didn't know about corporal punishment? Its been used for centuries?

Its more like you know theres corporal punishment in a particular shool, disagree with it, or its method, then send your child anyway, and only address the issue when you child comes home having cane/belt marks on their hands.

Zynks wrote:

Certain changes are good, and this is one that I feel would be good for my child. I will take dalila's suggestion and hope to find a tolerant response.

I understand your point but don't agree. Questioning the status quo can be a source of conflict, but not necessarily. Conflict is normally a result of intolerance on one or more sides and is not my objective. Change is the result I am targeting.

Theres a good way to approach these kind of problems and waiting till after the fact is probably the most annoying way to go about it.

Teachers will/should always respect a parents wishes, unless they conflict with something else. The only way to know is to ask them. Not ask your kid to stand up for himself and find out the information 2nd hand. You hadn't said you were going to talk to the teachers before now, so we could only assume its something you hadn't intended to until now.

Zynks wrote:

....
By the way, I did enquire about how religion was handled when we signed him up. I was told there was no involvement of priests and that religion was handled in a "light" way with respect for the kids individuality.

Well if you were that particular about how religion was taught, you should have asked "particular" questions then shouldn't you.

TempestSabre

dalila wrote:

....if I was aware of parent objection to their child taking part in the lessons there would be no problem at all for me to give them alternative work whether in the classroom or in another classroom. If, however, I was unaware of the parents feelings, I would naturally presume that the parents were aware of the ethos of the school and therefore had no objection to the child being involved in the religion classes. ...

Thats the point I was trying badly (and failing) to make but much much better made.

TempestSabre

robindch wrote:

> Do you expect that to vanish overnight?

If religious indoctrination were made illegal in state-funded schools, then yes, it would disappear pretty much overnight.

However, religions still have a fair amount of political clout. Last week in the UK, the government's mooted plans to mandate that religious schools should have at least 25% of their intake from other religious castes were junked, since all the religions cried foul.

One point worth considering: people wouldn't accept Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Sinn Fein or communist schools. So why do they accept the existence of catholic, protestant (etc) schools?

(btw, that other quote came from RainyDay here.)

Its historical obviously.

Check out the Japanese approach.

Zynks

TempestSabre wrote:

No it means why continue to live in a country if you feel strongly against religion in schools. It applies equally to everyone who lives here. Emmigration to better oneself, or your family has been part of Irish history for generations. I make no distinctions about where people are from. Only that people living here could not be unaware of the Irish school system. So don't invent meanings that don't exist to make it about something its not.:rolleyes:

I didn't get the impression that that was your point, and still don't.
Living in another country sure is a good eye opener. If you haven't done it yet, you should give it a shot. But what makes you think people will become more accepting of these education policies by living abroad? My guess would be that opinions might change further against the status quo.

TempestSabre wrote:

If thats the case why did you not find out in more detail how education is taught before your child started? If you were that particular about the methods used, I can't believe you just did nothing about it, and waited till now.

It like a person who calls out directions after you've passed the turn.

I don't think things have to be so black or white. Yes, maybe I should have asked more questions, but I didn't. So what? Have I lost my rights to do something about it because of that?

TempestSabre wrote:

That makes no sense. Who didn't know about corporal punishment? Its been used for centuries?

Yes, but it changed, and not thanks to people who with a "love it or leave it" way of looking at it.

TempestSabre wrote:

Its more like you know theres corporal punishment in a particular shool, disagree with it, or its method, then send your child anyway, and only address the issue when you child comes home having cane/belt marks on their hands.

And what options do you suggest parents had in the "old days"?

TempestSabre wrote:

Theres a good way to approach these kind of problems and waiting till after the fact is probably the most annoying way to go about it.

Maybe you are a person with a clear view of the future, envisaging difficulties and differences in opinions who can prepare in advance to handle them without hurting any one's sensitivities. Unfortunately, I do not possess such virtues. Guilty as charged!

TempestSabre wrote:

Teachers will/should always respect a parents wishes, unless they conflict with something else. The only way to know is to ask them.

Agreed and I intend to do so.

TempestSabre wrote:

Not ask your kid to stand up for himself and find out the information 2nd hand. You hadn't said you were going to talk to the teachers before now, so we could only assume its something you hadn't intended to until now.

I thought I mentioned that on post #4
Well, the discussion with my kids happened at 7pm. At 9.36 I had made up my mind that I needed to talk to the teacher.
So where did I commit such a mistake in your eyes, was in the 2.5 hours gap or in informing my child about the rights I believe he has?
Maybe I should have mentioned that my son is a very mature 7 year old, who is fair, quite articulated and fairly independent in his views.

robindch

> Check out the Japanese approach.

Can you be a bit more specific here, as I'm not quite sure what you're getting at! ta.

Victor

Zynks wrote:

I had a chat with my son and explained to him about different religions and paganism, and said that whatever he decides to believe in it is his choice and no one elses.

Then help him make an informed choice

I also told him he can tell his teachers about that,

This is not his fight. He's 7, he can't stand up to a debate with an adult.

TempestSabre

Zynks wrote:

I didn't get the impression that that was your point, and still don't.
Living in another country sure is a good eye opener. If you haven't done it yet, you should give it a shot. But what makes you think people will become more accepting of these education policies by living abroad? My guess would be that opinions might change further against the status quo.

The education system in ireland is very different from other countries. So you might be happier with the system in another country. Its that simple.

Zynks wrote:

I don't think things have to be so black or white. Yes, maybe I should have asked more questions, but I didn't. So what? Have I lost my rights to do something about it because of that?

No its just a really annoying why to deal with things

Zynks wrote:

Yes, but it changed, and not thanks to people who with a "love it or leave it" way of looking at it. And what options do you suggest parents had in the "old days"?

In Ireland, emmigration. Or go to a alternative school system where theres alternative teaching methods. If enough people vote with their feet/wallet then the system will change itself.

Zynks wrote:

Maybe you are a person with a clear view of the future, envisaging difficulties and differences in opinions who can prepare in advance to handle them without hurting any one's sensitivities. Unfortunately, I do not possess such virtues. Guilty as charged!

Its not about sensitivities, its just a poor way to deal with problems.

Zynks wrote:

I thought I mentioned that on post #4
Well, the discussion with my kids happened at 7pm. At 9.36 I had made up my mind that I needed to talk to the teacher.
So where did I commit such a mistake in your eyes, was in the 2.5 hours gap or in informing my child about the rights I believe he has?
Maybe I should have mentioned that my son is a very mature 7 year old, who is fair, quite articulated and fairly independent in his views.

Your original post was about being surprised by the child getting religious homework. This is apparently after you having a talk with the school about how religion is taught. Unless you have a really bad memory I don't see how you can be surprised.

Even then if you are only suprised at the approach and are that particular about how its taught, then it doesn't make sense that you didn't look into in more detail at the start. IMO.

Sending a child to discuss it with their teacher is not right approach. Thats just common sense.

TempestSabre

robindch wrote:

> Check out the Japanese approach.

Can you be a bit more specific here, as I'm not quite sure what you're getting at! ta.

How they teach religion in Japanese Schools.

robindch

> How they teach religion in Japanese Schools.

...which is how? I always thought that Shinto was primarily a family thing and didn't have much place in schools, but I've never read up on it and I could be completely wrong. What's the deal with it?

dalila

Zynks, I think you are right to try and talk to the teacher yourself it may clear the whole thing up for you quite easily! I also thought it might be a useful idea for you to ask the school if they have a layout of the topics covered over your child's schooling. Again I am speaking from a Church of Ireland perspective but in the senior classes the children do look at other religions. The following has been taken from the overview of the strands for 3rd - 6th class in Church of Ireland schools.

"Other Faiths:
By separating ‘Other Faiths’ into a separate strand for 3rd – 6th one does not assume the necessity of covering these faiths in the same detail or under the same headings as Christianity. It is hoped, however, that children will become aware of and sensitive to the beliefs and practices of those of other or no faith(s) who may be part of their school or local communities. This will be dealt with in greater detail in post-primary school through the Junior Certificate Programme."

I do realise that a lot of people feel differently about religion these days but please do not automatically think that all schools are trying to indoctrinate your children, again I can only speak for my school, but that really is not our agenda!! We respect the choice of both parents and children and we accomodate to the best of our ability.

Shellie13

Zynks wrote:

This should be optional. If my son decides he wants it, I support him. If he decides it's not for him I will also back him. Wouldn't you?


I want him to take ownership of that decision.


I will if he decides he doesn't want it. He said he will think about it.

Seems like a pretty weighty decision for a 7 year old!
I get you about wanting your son to have the freedom to think for himself but even the most mature of kids that age would have a problem reaching a decsion on that imo. If you have issues with your son partaking in religion class talk to the teacher as the others said- but i would see thos more as a thing of inclusion than anything else- being the odd kid out in the class at that age can be tough!

Ye sadly most schools are church run and so do give a fairly catholic/chistian based religion programme but if you want to counteract this keep informing your son about different world religions and beliefs and secular human rights codes...
Dont worry about him growing up in a bubble once he's older the schools teaching wont be hugly important-i for one couldnt have had a more "catholic" upbringing yet i decided though thought alone (no problem or issues with the church per se) that i didnt buy in to most christian teachings!

Yes it is a decision your son should make for himself hes lucky to have a parent who encourages this independance of thought-but there's plenty time for him to think over it when hes older and wiser!

TempestSabre

robindch wrote:

> How they teach religion in Japanese Schools.

...which is how? I always thought that Shinto was primarily a family thing and didn't have much place in schools, but I've never read up on it and I could be completely wrong. What's the deal with it?

Tell you what let me know where you live and come and search the web for you, read it for you and then transfer the info using Osmosis

http://religiousfreedom.com/Conference/japan/Sugihara.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/religion-in-japan
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1371666

lacuna

Why do you assume because his religion homework was to read a prayer, that his teacher is making him pray? Maybe the teacher just wanted the class to read over the prayer so that they could talk about it the next day in the class or something. I don't think anyone can actually force someone to pray. It's something you have to mean. You can say the words over and over again but it doesn't follow that what you're doing is praying. I presume this isn't the first piece of religious homework that your son has had to do. So why is it only now that you have the problem with it? Regardless of the subject in question, if a child is partaking in the class, the child is required to do the homework. You can't keep picking and choosing which bits you like and which you don't. Anyway, he'll be better able to make a decision, about Roman Catholicism at least, if he actually does the homework and finds out about it.

If you felt so strongly about your son making his own decision about what to believe in then I can't understand how you have let him partake in a religion class that's mainly focused on Roman Catholicism and otherwise left him to his own devices. It makes no sense. He's 7 years old. And anyway, regardless of how mature you say he is, it's unfair to expect him to be able to make an informed decision now and to be able to explain his views to his teacher. I don't think it's fair to burden your child with such a responsibility at such a young age.

I think you're copping out by saying that you didn't forsee this. You presumably knew, when you decided to send your child to the school, that you would want him to make his own decisions about religion. You knew religion would be taught as a subject. Based on the fact that you're not religious, it should have stood out as a subject. It's not hard to see that there could possibly be a conflict of interests somewhere down the line. It's not like these sorts of things often happen with subjects like maths. It would have been prudent to address the issue when the child was joining the school, making your position on the matter known to the principal.

Since that is looking to the past, maybe as a possible solution you could look for a general religious studies class outside school for your son to make sure that he is getting a more balanced approach to religion. Then again, he is 7. I don't think I would have appreciated such an in depth study of theology at that age.