RTEs Prime Time want young drivers input for Tomorrow night programme

mike65

Hi

I got a PM from Ken O'Shea who is a Prime Time reporter, he is doing a piece for Tuedsays programme and is looking for input from young drivers,

Here is his letter with contact details

request from Prime Time
To Whom It May Concern:

My name is Ken O’Shea and I am a reporter with Prime Time, RTE’s Current Affairs TV programme. I am making a pre-recorded package for tomorrow night’s show (Tuesday 24th) on road safety.

As you are no doubt aware, there is an ongoing debate on introducing severe restrictions on young drivers, in light of the ongoing road fatalities situation.
The Govt, opposition politicians, Gardai, road safety bodies, and members of the public all seem to be in agreement that there should be a crackdown on young drivers – particularly those who have an interest in modified/tuned-up cars.

Amongst the measures are speed limiters/restrictions on the types of cars young drivers could be licensed for etc.

I think it is vital to include some voices of the people who would be directly affected by such measures – young drivers and those with an interest in modified cars.

However, finding such people in a short time frame is not an easy task.
Basically, I am writing to anybody I can find on the Net who seems to have an interest in this area to see if you could help me with any of the following:

• would you and/or your friends be prepared to talk to Prime Time about the realities of being a young driver and your view on the best way to cut road deaths?
• Do you know of anybody who might be interested in talking to us?
• Do you know of any clubs/societies which might have a representative who would be willing to talk to us on this subject?
• Do you know of any other message boards where I could contact people on this issue?
• Do you have any recommendations on who I should talk to on this subject?

Please forgive the somewhat scattergun approach of writing to you like this but in the past when we have covered this story we have had loads of input from the various ‘suits’ and politicians but we have yet to hear the voices of the people really affected by this and I am determined to avoid that unsatisfactory situation this time around.

As it is for tomorrow night’s show, time is of the essence here. So if you can offer me any help, it would be very much appreciated.

I realise that there are issues surrounding the Internet in terms of being 100% sure of who you are talking to so you can contact me in the ways listed below, to confirm who I am.

Ken O’Shea.
Reporter
Prime Time

RTE Main number: 2083111. (Ask for Ken O’Shea in Prime Time.)
Desk phone: 01-2083157, Mobile: 087-9874966. Email: osheak@rte.ie

You can also log onto the Prime Time area on www.rte.ie/primetime and if you look in the archive section you will see that I did a report on Iraq for last Thursday’s show.
Thanks for taking the time to read this and any help you could offer me would be very much appreciated.

Edit! Ken is on a thread in the Modded Cars forum
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055006647

Mike.

Lennoxschips

the news keeps going on about "young drivers". typical finger pointing. the problem is that nearly everyone in ireland, young and old, drives like maniacs.

wba88

well said lennoxchips

thebman

There are a couple of problems with driving in Ireland that I've listed below what I think are the problems and what I think might help solve the problem. People can feel free to pick them apart but this is what I believe to be the main problems on Irish roads although I'm sure there are more.

Problems on Irish roads IMO

[*]No indicating anywhere meaning you can't assume anything. You have to be on your toes (I swear to god I've seen people indicating right and turning left too!). This means you have to be ready to emergency stop when in traffic or at roundabouts and sometimes stop just to be safe when you wouldn't otherwise have to which slows down flow of traffic and frustrates drivers.


[*]Roundabouts are easy places for accidents at low speeds because half the people don't know how to use them. The road safety authority has run ads instructing people how to use junctions but never round abouts! This is the first basic step to fixing a problem too, not just the end of it.


[*]Lack of enforcement on country (rural) roads is killing people. The very place not being policed! People act like its a race track because nobody is policing it. Its a miracle the death toll isn't higher. The guards don't have the resources to deal with it IMO so they act like the problem doesn't exist.


[*]
Bad road conditions are killing people in rural areas especially those unfamiliar with the area or those that think they know it like the back of their hand. Example, Clara school bus crash where back axle came off the bus which was covered by RTE News when it happened. In a 80KPH zone, the safe speed to travel on the road is less than 50KPH because of the drops in the road caused by the road collapsing into the bog and lack of proper repairs. Not that it would matter if the speed limit was 50KPH because it wouldn't be enforced on the road anyway.


[*]
I'm not sure because I'm not into modified cars but I think it is a safe bet that these are the insurance company has not been informed that these cars are modified. As a results, surely they are not actually covered by their insurance policies? Even if they are, half of these drivers have spent so much on their cars they drive them around town at about 30KPH so as not to scratch that shiny front spoiler off the speed bump or just bumps in the road. Its the bangers that are causing the problems. The cars in such bad conditions, sure you might as well drive them into the ground because they are worthless :rolleyes:


[*]
Modified does not equal fast. Modified cars are generally still 1 litres with big exhaust pipes on the back to make extra noise. You can drive fast in a 1 litre car, it just takes effort. This is something the Minister seemed to be saying on Questions and Answers tonight. The car modding scene is mostly about personalising a car for you or are punk rockers more likely to commit murder because of their hair styles or individuality? I'm sure they are more likely to drive fast but not all of them are and this is again stereotyping people and blaming a group when it is everyones fault.


[*]
Young drivers should not be made out to be the scape goats for the government. Otherwise the older drivers will see themselves as doing no wrong when they are driving dangerously too even if they don't speed. You don't have to go fast to drive dangerously.

Solutions:


[*]
When I was in LA recently and driving, I was amazed at how organised everything was. I was driving in a city and when I had a green light, I got green lights for about the next 20 minutes of driving. This does not occur in Ireland and is causing major traffic problems. You get through one set of lights and are stopped at the next in most cases so traffic can never flow. This leads to frustration and bad driving/angry driving.

aside: Not to mention I am a 22 year old driver who's had his license since he was 17 and was driving a 2.2 litre Toyota Camry. Strange that I was driving sanely, didn't get stopped once by police and obeyed the speed limits better than the locals. It isn't always about speed or engine capacity. I've never been stopped in my life by a guard.


[*]
Track days for racers! Give people a place to drive fast and they'll do it. People don't want to break the law. If you give someone, somewhere safe to go nuts, they'll go nuts there instead of on the roads where they will cause an accident. Personally I think my brother drives at insane speeds when he drives and he constantly says he wishes there was a track for him to take his car out on. There isn't. Mondello isn't accessible to everyone or available all the time. There needs to be places where people can go nuts and a calm down area afterwards where they aren't allowed back on to the roads for a certain period while adrenaline levels return to normal levels.


[*]
Random enforcement of back roads. Doesn't take much to convince people they might be caught. We don't have to police every back road in the country. Actually focusing on any of them would be a start. As you randomly assign a few each week, people will eventually get the message. The reason people speed on back roads is because they can get away with it. The minister can say this isn't the case and so can the guards but the Irish people know it is and no amount of talking around this issue will stop this being a fact.


[*]
Good planning. Proper planning on Irish roads would solve half the problems. Local access only on tight roads to stop people using them for recreational driving (racing). Have a low call phone number these people can call to report incidents. Sync traffic lights so traffic flows. Keep up the ads to educate drivers.


[*]
Stop blaming young drivers for everything. Everyone is to blame and we should all accept the responsibility. Even if young people are primarily responsible we are saying only young people need to change their habits. This is not the case. It is a nationwide problem. From the elderly down to 17 year old provisional drivers.


[*]
What exactly is supposed to be achieved by slowing provisional drivers in no overtaking areas? It seems to me that this will only frustrate drivers that can go the actual speed limit and promote dangerous overtaking. Also so many roads have no overtaking over 5KM stretches when there are safe overtaking opportunities within the stretch. Treat people like children and they'll act like children! By all means have no overtaking zones but only in areas where it is dangerous to do so. Straight, flat stretches of road are safe to overtake on assuming there is no on coming traffic (<- huge issue on Irish rural roads).

spank_inferno

Good points Brim4Brim.

I'll add this though

If a section of young drivers break existing rules (speed, safety, modification etc) and they face little or no sanction what will more draconion laws do?

Answer: Nothing! People who break the law now will continue to break the law, no matter how many laws there are. Those who will suffer are us poor suckers actualy being safe on the roads. Its our generation who dont accept drink/driving. How many of us have seen 40+ yr olds absolutely pi**ed getting into cars "sure I'll be grand".

I drive a skoda so I consider myself like Gill in the simpsons
"Slow and steady wins the race"

thebman

spank_inferno wrote:

Good points Brim4Brim.

I'll add this though

If a section of young drivers break existing rules (speed, safety, modification etc) and they face little or no sanction what will more draconion laws do?

Answer: Nothing! People who break the law now will continue to break the law, no matter how many laws there are. Those who will suffer are us poor suckers actualy being safe on the roads. Its our generation who dont accept drink/driving. How many of us have seen 40+ yr olds absolutely pi**ed getting into cars "sure I'll be grand".

I drive a skoda so I consider myself like Gill in the simpsons
"Slow and steady wins the race"

Completely agree with this. Drink driving among older drivers is a huge problem. I don't know one person who would drink and drive and have heard stories from friends of pulling friends out from behind the wheel and putting them in taxi's after they've been drinking. The message got through to younger drivers.

However we have a new generation again now. I'm 22, 17 year olds could still be doing it since they wouldn't have taken any notice of ads aimed at drivers when they weren't actually driving. The ads have to be constant. There is no point in running them when there are problems because if problems start, you must likely have a generation that thinks its okay to do it.

Example
For example, if you have 23-25 year olds that had safety ads aimed at them to not drink and drive, they probably won't.

If people who are 17-22 are not exposed to these ads when they start to drive, the problems start. When they were 16, they would have not cared about the ad so they get to 17 or 18 and the ads aren't run so there is an increased risk that they will see it as being okay to drink and drive.
end example

Basically the problem is the government have not taken the issue seriously and not devoted the proper resources in tackling the problem IMO. It seems to be purely a money issue. Lack of guards, lack of ads, lack of infastructure, lack of planning etc..

fly_agaric

brim4brim wrote:

Basically the problem is the government have not taken the issue seriously and not devoted the proper resources in tackling the problem IMO. It seems to be purely a money issue. Lack of guards, lack of ads, lack of infastructure, lack of planning etc..

To drag out the old cliche - you get the govt. you deserve.
The govt. here reflects the priorities of the Good People of Ireland.:rolleyes:
IMO, they'd prefer not to have police and officialdom on their asses about their bad behaviour + getting out actively enforcing the rules of the road even if it would be for their (our) own good. Especially if they'd (we'd) have to stump up extra tax to pay for this enforcement.

thebman

fly_agaric wrote:

To drag out the old cliche - you get the govt. you deserve.
The govt. here reflects the priorities of the Good People of Ireland.:rolleyes:
IMO, they'd prefer not to have police and officialdom on their asses about their bad behaviour + getting out actively enforcing the rules of the road even if it would be for their (our) own good. Especially if they'd (we'd) have to stump up extra tax to pay for this enforcement.

Of course how silly of me. I want to pay VRT.

VRT should cover any and all road projects seeing as it is money coming from our roads that no other country has as its an illegal tax. Surely we should have the best infastructure in Europe by now.

swingking

I am watching the show now and I all I hear from the journalists is "young drivers" this and "young drivers" that.

For f sake, why is the blame always shown towards the young provisional drivers. I am a young driver and this **** is fuel for insurance companies to drive up the price of insurance for young drivers.

I was driving the last day and an elderly woman was using her mobile phone, driving, and veering right off the road; but wait, it's the young drivers fault this person is a potential hazard.

rant over

FlutterinBantam

You are so right... its not young drivers who are at fault ,no way

every weekend groups of 50 60 and 70 year olds are banging their machines into trees,walls,poles,other cars.Night after night these 60 and seventy yr olds are doing doughnuts and tooling up and down the roads of the country.

What part of F A C T do you people not understand???

Hobart

brim4brim wrote:

There are a couple of problems with driving in Ireland that I've listed below what I think are the problems and what I think might help solve the problem. People can feel free to pick them apart but this is what I believe to be the main problems on Irish roads although I'm sure there are more.

Problems on Irish roads IMO

[*][snip]

You make some interesting points brim4brim. I have to be honest, I don't really see how the tackling of specific problems, as listed, would have any huge impact on the current spate of tragic accidents. For example, while your point about the lack of or incorrect indication has merit, it hardly contributes to the number of fatalities on our roads.

Similarly, your point in regards of the lack of policiing on rural roads is quite moot. People will drive fast/drunk/dangerously on roads up until they are caught or dead. It's simply not feesabile to have *every* rural road in Ireland policed.

Also, your point in regards of modified cars is erroneous. While you state that the addition of body panels etc to a car does not in fact increase it's ability to go faster, modification is a lot more than a bit of super glue and a bit of plastic. The exhaust mechanism is an essential part of the internal combustion engine. A better exhaust = more power.

Equally modified does not just entail a "better" looking car. A huge percentage of mods involve the modification of the engine management system (EMS). This simple and relatively cheap mod can greatly increase the BHP output of a car. More BHP = more speed.

I do not have the figures to hand, but I would wager that most speed related fatalities involve yourng drivers, i.e. those below the age of 25. Why do you think this is? I believe that the issue is a many faceted one, and there is no all encompassing answer to it, but there are serious issues which need to be tackled. Some issues I feel that should be addressed are as follows:

1) A licence is taken as a right in this country and not a privelage. This should be tackled immediately.

2) All new drivers (young or old) should be made go on a pre-licence course, which should be fully funded by the govt and involve at least 12 hours full time driving on the open road.

3) Driving and road safety should be a social subject in school.

4) Tougher sentences should be given out to those who continuously break the rules of the road.

5) The laws on driving with a provisional licence should be enforced.

6) If you fail your test, you fail. You should have a restricted licence after that. If you drive outside of the restrictions, you should be banned immediately.

7) All cars should be fitted with some form of tachograph.

Track days are openly available in Ireland and across the water, in fact it is cheaper to drive your car to the UK and take part in a track day there than it is to do the same at mondello.

No excuse should be proffered for bad drivers. If provisional drivers are to be slowed in certain areas, so be it. Any body hasseling any driver over safe driving should be reported and dealt with appropiately.

fly_agaric

brim4brim wrote:

Of course how silly of me. I want to pay VRT.

VRT should cover any and all road projects seeing as it is money coming from our roads that no other country has as its an illegal tax. Surely we should have the best infastructure in Europe by now.

Alot of money is being spent by the govt. on improving road infrastructure, isn't it?

Whatever the reasons: sufficient money is not being spent on our police force to allow it to enforce the rules of the road properly - i.e. to ensure that if you break the rules you have a significant chance of getting fingered for it anyplace and time. That would be the main thing we could do which would really change peoples' attitudes.
Sufficient money is not being spent to provide Ireland with quick and efficient driver testing.

I was just suggesting that maybe we really don't want these things at all [better policing of the roads, more rigorous testing of drivers for example] and the politicians know that.
So they wring their hands and provide cheap shocker ad campaigns while they and the meeja point the finger at particular problem-groups depending on the accident-of-the-day [eeviill young male drivers with testosterone poisoning who believe they can defy death, baby-eating "non-national" drivers who don't adhere to the strict rules and regulations we all obey;), devil-may-care prov. licence holders].

SeanW

Hobart: Whenever you're finished villifying provisional licenseholders, maybe you could turn your attention to the obscene waiting lists for driving tests. For example, my local authority, Longford, has a waiting list of 36 weeks! That's absolutely obscene in my view and totally inexcusable.

BUT, I'm one of the lucky ones, if I was a poor sucker in Navan, I'd be waiting 60 weeks for a driving test. That's right, 1 year and 2 months. And there are many test centres with avg waiting times in the 40s and 50s.Source

The system has essentially collapsed. There's no use in "enforcing the rules against provisional licenseholders" when such licenseholders are waiting up to and over a year for a single driving test.

Hobart

SeanW wrote:

Hobart: Whenever you're finished villifying provisional licenseholders, maybe you could turn your attention to the obscene waiting lists for driving tests.

I presume you mean vilifying? I would ask you to draw my attention to any area wherby I have spoken in vicious and defamatory terms about any member of the public, be they young or old, who holds a provisional licence.

For example, my local authority, Longford, has a waiting list of 36 weeks! That's absolutely obscene in my view and totally inexcusable.

For example, your local authority is typical of each and every local authority/county council in this country. It does not give anybody the excuse/right to drive recklessly. Nor does it excuse the obscene waiting lists. But, that's just the way things are, it has little, if any impact on the current spate of accidents involving young drivers.

[snip]

The rest of your rant is about waiting times for tests, etc. While I agree with your sentiments, it's not quite "on the point" with regards to this thread.

thebman

fly_agaric wrote:

Alot of money is being spent by the govt. on improving road infrastructure, isn't it?

Only main roads. If you drive in Offaly, there is a Clara road that has been in desperate need of repair for years. It sinks into the bog.

A bus crash happened there that ripped the axle of a school bus going over the worst bump on the road and injured one of the students (only injured luckily). Anyway RTE covered it but the council were out doing "emergency repairs" just before they got there and the bump in the road was still obvious. It is massive and you have to do about 25MPH going over at most.

The road has still not been properly repaired since then and that was about a year ago now. Local authorities need to be held responsible if the roads aren't in proper condition or need some way to get funding for roads if they actually have no funds for the roads because that road is lethal.

Road conditions are some of the worst in this country. I've never seen roads as bad. It isn't too bad around Dublin but once you leave main roads then they become lethal and these all have 80KPH limits that aren't enforced and in general are too high for the roads.

---

I'd also like to say the reason I oppose the targeting of young drivers is this. If you target young drivers, they feel like they are being targetted (obviously) because they are young, not because they are dong wrong. They believe this until it happens to them. This isn't limited to driving. Accuse a young person of doing anything because they are young and you'll have a nice argument for yourself.

Middle age and elderly drivers won't change there ways so long as young drivers are being blamed because of the "sure its the young drivers causing all the problems" line. So they don't change there driving habbits either and they have bad habbits. Most/all driver have at least some bad habbits picked up over the years.

The result of this is young drivers that won't change and middle/elderly aged drivers that won't change and we are left with unchanging statistics for our road deaths.

---

I agree with most of Hobart's points.

---

FlutterinBantam wrote:

You are so right... its not young drivers who are at fault ,no way

every weekend groups of 50 60 and 70 year olds are banging their machines into trees,walls,poles,other cars.Night after night these 60 and seventy yr olds are doing doughnuts and tooling up and down the roads of the country.

What part of F A C T do you people not understand???

A good example of why 50, 60 and 70 year olds don't think they need to change there driving habbits. Nobody ever said young drivers weren't at fault or at least I didn't. All I said is it is everyones fault and everyones problem. Everyone is doing something wrong on the road at some point.

Today in the paper, there was an incident of a middle aged man who crashed yards from his house by gong through a wall. Of course, its just the young people, everyone elses driving is top notch. :rolleyes:

---

People doing doughnuts issue. There is obviously demand for such a place if people are doing. I don't do it and I don't know anyone that does so I can't really offer a decent solution other than build a place where nobody is responsible for their actions but themselves (signing a document to such effect like you do if you go karting that the facility isn't responsible for your injuries) and put a bit of tarmac down. Charge a small fee and use it toward up keep and maintineance of the area. Such facilities need to be local aswell, otherwise people won't use them because they can used the virtually unpoliced back roads in the country.

SeanW

Hobart wrote:

Nor does it excuse the obscene waiting lists. But, that's just the way things are, it has little, if any impact on the current spate of accidents involving young drivers.

Then why did you say this?

5) The laws on driving with a provisional licence should be enforced.

Normally, I would agree that rules should be enforced, but aside from not driving on the motorways the only rule affecting provisional licenseholders is the law against driving unaccompanied on a 1st or 3rd provisional, as far as I'm aware.

I understand that this rule, is at present not enforced all that much.

Like I said, normally I'm all for enforcing the rules - and I personally drive carefully and with courtesy - but until we have a testing system that actually functions, there's no way to tell whether a provisional licenseholder is driving on a provisional because they're bad drivers or because they've got 50 more weeks to go on their testing centre waiting list.

In my view it simply isn't fair on provisional licensholders - nor would it do that much to enhance road safety - to have any kind of clampdown until the testing system can actually be taken seriously.

It does not give anybody the excuse/right to drive recklessly.

Where did I advocate driving recklessly? The laws relating to provisional licenseholders have absolutely nothing to do with driver cautiousness lack thereof.

Alun

SeanW wrote:

Normally, I would agree that rules should be enforced, but aside from not driving on the motorways the only rule affecting provisional licenseholders is the law against driving unaccompanied on a 1st or 3rd provisional, as far as I'm aware.

I understand that this rule, is at present not enforced all that much.

Yeah, but that is the very essence of a Provisional Licence isn't it? It is, in effect, a permit to learn to drive, and the general consensus in the rest of the civilized world is that you learn things by being taught by somebody else, i.e. an instructor or another qualified driver, not by making it up as you go along. Many thousands if not millions of people the world over do it this way ... what makes Ireland an exception?

I mean, if that very essential prerequisite of holding a provisional licence is being ignored by the people who are supposed to be upholding the law, i.e. the Gardai, what hope is there? We may as well just abandon the whole concept of driver training, and let anarchy rule.

Hobart

SeanW wrote:

Then why did you say this?

Look, do yourself a favour. Have a look at a tacho, or the average mph/kph tracker in any modern car. In any urbanised area, I would be surprised if any driver would be able to go at more than 30-40 KPH for any sustained period. Deaths are not normally caused by drivers driving at 30-40 kph. If every driver drived at, say, 20 kph there would be no speed related deaths on our roads, simple as that.

I don't really get your point tbh. If by quoting the part of my post that you did is in some way meant to justify your accusation of me vilifying anybody, well them I'm afraid that you have sorely missed my point. Try re-reading what i have said, for starters. I was talking about cause and effect, simple facts. I purposely went out of my way not to single out any group for blame.

Normally, I would agree that rules should be enforced, but aside from not driving on the motorways the only rule affecting provisional licenseholders is the law against driving unaccompanied on a 1st or 3rd provisional, as far as I'm aware.

So you agree with me. The rules should be enforced. Good.

I understand that this rule, is at present not enforced all that much.

again we are in agreement. Good.

Like I said, normally I'm all for enforcing the rules - and I personally drive carefully and with courtesy - but until we have a testing system that actually functions, there's no way to tell whether a provisional licenseholder is driving on a provisional because they're bad drivers or because they've got 50 more weeks to go on their testing centre waiting list.

...and your point is????...what exactly?

In my view it simply isn't fair on provisional licensholders - nor would it do that much to enhance road safety - to have any kind of clampdown until the testing system can actually be taken seriously.

SO, let me get this right. Your opinion is that because we do not have the proper mechanism in place, or one to your exacting standards, the law should be allowed to be broken on a regular basis by inexperienced or incompetant drivers because, in your opinion, it's not fair. Christ!

Where did I advocate driving recklessly?

Where did I accuse you of advocating anything? This is the second time on this short thread that you have attempted to put words in my mouth. Let me be straight with you, I'm not accusing you of saying anything I have not quoted you on, ok.

The laws relating to provisional licenseholders have absolutely nothing to do with driver cautiousness lack thereof.

Pure and absolute rubbish.

SeanW

Alun wrote:

Yeah, but that is the very essence of a Provisional Licence isn't it? It is, in effect, a permit to learn to drive

I agree that tihis is how it should be. But when a competent driver has to hang on to a learner license for over a year because the testing system is in bits, the "essence" of the Provisional License isn't very credible.

and the general consensus in the rest of the civilized world is that you learn things by being taught by somebody else, i.e. an instructor or another qualified driver, not by making it up as you go along.

Does anyone take lessons for 60 weeks after they book a driving test? ANYONE?

Many thousands if not millions of people the world over do it this way ... what makes Ireland an exception?

Because we have driver eduction and testing system that doesn't work? In many if not all other countries a learner permit holder, sometimes anyone, who feels they can drive can get a license test reasonably quickly.

In most other countries, the only reason a person would ever use a provisional license or learners permit, is because they currently cannot pass a driving test. That is part of the "essence" of a provisional license.

We may as well just abandon the whole concept of driver training, and let anarchy rule.

It seems whoever is in charge of driver testing seems to think so.

I would rather we had an education and testing system that worked properly, THEN was properly enforced.

...and your point is????...what exactly?

My point is that if there were a major clampdown tomorrow morning on people driving unaccompanied on 1st and 3rd provisionals, while you would get the bad drivers and the long term provisional license users off the road - who I agree should not be driving alone in the firstplace - but you would also be putting a lot of competent drivers off the road because they're waiting for tests.

Hobart

SeanW wrote:

I agree that tihis is how it should be. But when a competent driver has to hang on to a learner license for over a year because the testing system is in bits, the "essence" of the Provisional License isn't very credible.

Why or how does the lenght of wait for a test affect a driver, in terms of his driving? Why can a provisional driver not apply for a test immediately he/she is given a provisional licence and cut out the wait for the test while he/she is learning how to drive? What so disinsentivises a provisional licence holder to such an extent that this huge wait is of such huge importance to them?

Does anyone take lessons for 60 weeks after they book a driving test? ANYONE?

Some people yes.

Because we have driver eduction and testing system that doesn't work? In many if not all other countries a learner permit holder, sometimes anyone, who feels they can drive can get a license test reasonably quickly.

The simple fact of the matter is that there is currently a waiting list for tests. The government has introdcued legislation to tackle this. It's part and parcel of living in Ireland, it should not affect the quality or ability of young/old/whomever provisional licence holder to drive in an appropiate manner. Oh, and property prices are high aswell here.

In most other countries, the only reason a person would ever use a provisional license or learners permit, is because they currently cannot pass a driving test.

Simply not true.

That is part of the "essence" of a provisional license.

Again, you're misrepresenting the the function of a provisional licence.

It seems whoever is in charge of driver testing seems to think so.

I would rather we had an education and testing system that worked properly, THEN was properly enforced.

Properly, or to your taste. Your main gripe here seems to be the fact that it takes x months to actually get a test. Here's a solution, I'm sure I've proposed it before. When a driver is given a provisional licene , they should immediately apply for a test. Wait while they learn

My point is that if there were a major clampdown tomorrow morning on people driving unaccompanied on 1st and 3rd provisionals, while you would get the bad drivers and the long term provisional license users off the road - who I agree should not be driving alone in the firstplace - but you would also be putting a lot of competent drivers off the road because they're waiting for tests.

The law is the law is the law. If a driver was caught drink driving tonight and was , rightly, banned for 12 months, you are still be potentially putting a competent driver off the road, albeit only competent when sober, but still you would. Should we allow this person to drive when sober, because he only drinks at the weekends?