Young drivers to be target of tough new proposals

quazzy

Basically the RSA want to introduce a few new rules/laws for Provisional Drivers.

I heard on the radio that they want provisional drivers to be disqualified with just 6 penalty points and to enforce a Max speed of 80Km/h (even on 100Km/h roads) for provisional drivers

Also, talk of 2 year probation on drivers who pass their driving test -with above restrictions.

Some of the details are below
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1023/1160606896975.html


What does everyone think? Harsh...? Fair...?

Noelie

The 6 points seems fair, the restrictons are a load of crap rather than restricting the speed you can do restrict the car size you can have like is done with motorbikes

Kimbot

THe 6 penalty points is already in effect!!
If you get 6 on your provisional your off the road!!

TBH the blame goes on provisional drivers because they won't have a voice to go against the government!!

Blub2k4

Great idea, if it was enforced which is where the gulf seems to be in Ireland, that is the gulf between what is enforceable and what is enforced.

Seth Brundle

I think it is a very good idea.
Some years ago I recall the government dismissing the idea of using the 'R' plates that they use up the North for drivers who pass a test and are restricted from certain roads (motorways) and above certain speeds (50mph?).
The system here is farcical and they do need to encourage L drivers to use their 'licence' to learn how to drive - not to treat it as a full licence.
There is still lots more to be done but this is a good start.
However, will it be adequatley enforced?

Recon

Noelie wrote:

The 6 points seems fair, the restrictons are a load of crap rather than restricting the speed you can do restrict the car size you can have like is done with motorbikes

I'd agree with that.

It's stupid to reduce the speed to 80kph on roads because I think that people driving at that speed when everyone else is doing 100 could cause accidents.

The_Conductor

quazzy wrote:

Basically the RSA want to introduce a few new rules/laws for Provisional Drivers.

I heard on the radio that they want provisional drivers to be disqualified with just 6 penalty points and to enforce a Max speed of 80Km/h (even on 100Km/h roads) for provisional drivers

Also, talk of 2 year probation on drivers who pass their driving test -with above restrictions.

Some of the details are below
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1023/1160606896975.html


What does everyone think? Harsh...? Fair...?

Seems fair enough- it might encourage more people to get proper lessons in and to apply for their full tests sooner, rather than going from provisional licence to licence. It might appear to be discriminatory to disqualify provisional licence holders after *just* penalty points, but keep in mind, the provisional licence is on sufferance now, and is due to be phased out totally by 2011, when our derogation expires. It is not a full permit to drive on Irish or EU roads, and should not be thought of as such.

To be honest- if instead of bringing in new rules and restrictions- they simply enforced the current ones, perhaps that might have more of an impact?

As the NCT people are to do 250,000 tests between now and next June, the former excuse of the backlog should no longer be valid.

Hopefully they show a reasonable approach to passing and failing people, that is slightly absent from their current car-testing procedures......

Seth Brundle

I don't think it would cause accidents unless they were going very slow.
Would you prefer to see an inexperienced driver driving faster?

Heinrich

You cannot accompany a learner driver in Switzerland unless you have a minimum of two years full license! The same applies to hiring a car. The system works very well over there.

I think they have similar rules in France with "A" plates.

One does not have a god given right to create one's own rules.

quazzy

jonny24ie wrote:

THe 6 penalty points is already in effect!!
If you get 6 on your provisional your off the road!!

TBH the blame goes on provisional drivers because they won't have a voice to go against the government!!

Hi Jonny,

Are you sure about this?

Any linkies to confirm this?

To everyone else:

I do think that the majority of Pro. Drivers are decent enough but I would hope that the message starts to sink in.

interested

The RSA has been in the papers alot recently - large numbers of people getting killed in accidents on the road means that they have to be seen to be actively addressing an issue thats probably pretty important to alot of people.

The article you posted states that 500 people were arrested for drink driving last weekend and a slightly lower number this weekend - IMHO that would appear to be the principle cause of weekend accidents. Unfortunately even the RSA seem duty bound to avoid pointing out that these figures are completely unacceptable in a country that has fooled itself into thinking that people who drink drive are in a minority.

Im pretty sure the '6 penalty points, 3 strikes and your out' was designed by someone in the RSA's PR department but if it checks peoples attitudes when driving and saves someone's life that thats pretty good news.

I think people whether they are L-drivers or not - loosing their license for 6 penalty points without looking at each case is very harsh.

In an ideal world, forcing someone who has got 6 points to do a safety course or take a trip to the city morgue following a road traffic accident before getting back in their car, might make more sense. I agree that the current administration within the country will prohibit case by case rulings since there'd just be a massive backlog ...

But in a country where L-Drivers, young drivers and those that have managed to just pass their test are already persecuted by insurance companies taking their pound of flesh hitting the soft target to curb road fatalities is a knee jerk reaction.

Ensuring ALL drivers are alcohol and drug free, that their cars a road worthy etc will clearly bring up the subject of 'enforcement' as will the original post.
But inevitably when moving close to an election, and the police up in arms regarding recruits and a loss of authority, they'll react by pushing through these new rule sets.

Seth Brundle

interested wrote:

I think people whether they are L-drivers or not - loosing their license for 6 penalty points without looking at each case is very harsh.

Everyone has the option of taking the offence to court where their case can then be looked at

Jumpy

It works a little differently in Australia, we 'have' points to lose rather than gaining penalty points.

So Learner drivers (L Plates) have zero points - 1 wrong thing and you are off
Provisional drivers (P Plates - either colour) - 4 points - lose these and you are off
Full License - 12 points.

Cerdito

quazzy wrote:

Also, talk of 2 year probation on drivers who pass their driving test -with above restrictions.

This would be extremely annoying, especially if they applied it retrospectively to drivers who passed their test before any restrictions came in (i.e. me - full license for 7 months).

I couldn't imagine having restrictions put on me now, especially after getting used to driving on motorways, not needing a full licensed person beside me etc.

prospect

The 80Km/h speed limit is a load of balls, unless the government start upgrading oll our national roads to include regular overtaking lanes. Otherwise, one provisional driver goes out on a long stretch of road, and everyone else is stuck behind them doing 80Km/h.

quazzy

Cerdito wrote:

This would be extremely annoying, especially if they applied it retrospectively to drivers who passed their test before any restrictions came in (i.e. me - full license for 7 months).

I couldn't imagine having restrictions put on me now, especially after getting used to driving on motorways, not needing a full licensed person beside me etc.

Yep. I have my full licence for about 18 months now so it could cause a few problems for me also - that's assume the laws get passed quickly.

_Kaiser_

kbannon wrote:

Everyone has the option of taking the offence to court where their case can then be looked at

The problem with that is that the system is designed in such a way as to discourage you from questioning it for fear of getting even more points.

Add to this that all the Garda has to do is give his/her "word" rather than say produce video footage of the alleged offense (like they can in the UK) and most people will just bend over and take it rather than take that chance.

This is completely wrong IMO.. a Garda's word (especially given the corruption repeatedly shown to be present in the force) shouldn't be sufficent to take someone to court.

MrPudding

prospect wrote:

The 80Km/h speed limit is a load of balls, unless the government start upgrading oll our national roads to include regular overtaking lanes. Otherwise, one provisional driver goes out on a long stretch of road, and everyone else is stuck behind them doing 80Km/h.

You mean like how you can currently get stuck behind a lorry or a coach on the same roads that are restricted the same way?

MrP

prospect

MrPudding wrote:

You mean like how you can currently get stuck behind a lorry or a coach on the same roads that are restricted the same way?

MrP

Exactly.

Kimbot

quazzy wrote:

Hi Jonny,

Are you sure about this?

Any linkies to confirm this?

To everyone else:

I do think that the majority of Pro. Drivers are decent enough but I would hope that the message starts to sink in.

I'm pretty sure about this!! Your provisional only lasts for 2 years and pointsd carry to your full lisence!! I heard it from a garda about the 6 points and a load of others I know have heard it aswell!! I will try get a link to it somewhere!!

maidhc

MrPudding wrote:

You mean like how you can currently get stuck behind a lorry or a coach on the same roads that are restricted the same way?

MrP

Never seen one do only 80k.

My speedo must be broken.

peasant

Restrictions on "new" drivers don't really work (not in Germany, anyway)

"New" drivers seem to be split in two groups: Responsible people and those who just couldn't give a damn.

Restrictions will just inconvenience people more who are driving responsibly anyway ...the other half couldn't care less.

If you are of the mindset that thinks that you are invincible and that driving home from the disco at 3 in the morning after several drinks at 150 km/h is "cool" ...you will do so ...restrictions or no restrictions.

Add to that the fact that these restrictions will NOT be enforced in Ireland and they will make zero difference. Whoever is prepared to bend the rules most likely won't be caught anyway.


What's needed is proper education on the rules of driving as well as the laws of physics.
Add to that some shock tactics, in form of educational films off traffic accidents, pictures from real accident scenes, etc and you might just sway some people to change camps.

Vegeta

I find it funny that a person who has a full license is allowed to gather twice the amount of points as a person learning.

Well this country has sickened me to the back teeth. I actually hate the current government. They are sh1te. Its not because of which party they are, its based on their performance. Any serious issues the country faces and they just fail miserably.

They react to bad situations with proposed legislation after legislation, usually trying to copy other countries ignoring that those countries are not exactly like us. How about instead of introducing law after law that are not going to be inforced widely enough they try and sort the problem earlier in its development.

Generally roads in this country that have 100 km/h spped limits are National roads and probably the safest place to drive 100 km/h. People who obey the limits and drive within the conditions are not the problem its the tools who break the limits. So if they don't obey the 100km/h limit, do you think they will obey the 80km/h one. Do you think the fear of the gardai or points will stop them, yeah right, its working so well now.

I drive a 50 mile round trip every day to work on a national road (N7) and in the past year i have seen a speed trap once. ONCE in over 12 months.

By the way people are talking here you'd swear a full license made us perfect drivers. The minute we get the pink license you get a +1 to driving skill.

Common sense and experience are the keys. If you lack just one of them then you are more likely to have a crash than someone who has been in the situation before and sees the dangers in certain situations.

So how do you get experience safely, improved lessons and testing. Everyone will agree the current test is a shambles. Fair enough it lays down some ground work but no driving at night, on motorways/dual carriage ways or even hitting 5th gear usually. No emergency breaking or loss of control training at all.

So to sit back and blame young provisional drivers when the system they follow is so so flawed is a pointless exercise. Our energies should be aimed at the people who train drivers and the people who outline the requirements to become a driver.

The next time you think "Fu*king provisional drivers are so sh1t and dangerous" maybe you should be saying "I really wished we as drivers were trained better". Now of course people will argue that if a driver wanted he could take tons of lessons in every environment and get advanced driving lessons but lets face it people in this country (myself included) will do the lowest amount of work possible because we are getting away with it.

So even with the proposed restrictions the deaths by stupid drivers will continue but instead of L plates on mangled cars there may be R plates and they will be breaking a 80km'h speed limit sinstead of a 100km/h speed limits.

layke

Fudge, I just duped this topic.

Can a mod help a man out and delete my topic please?.

Stark

peasant wrote:

Restrictions on "new" drivers don't really work (not in Germany, anyway)

"New" drivers seem to be split in two groups: Responsible people and those who just couldn't give a damn.

Restrictions will just inconvenience people more who are driving responsibly anyway ...the other half couldn't care less.

If you are of the mindset that thinks that you are invincible and that driving home from the disco at 3 in the morning after several drinks at 150 km/h is "cool" ...you will do so ...restrictions or no restrictions.

I concur.

Macy

The fella on the radio this morning (Newstalk around 7.30 was were I heard him) sounded nothing more than an a Government PR man. The short term solution remains enforcement, not bringing in new laws that won't be enforced either.

Speed and drink driving checks, and large numbers of traffic cops need to be out on the roads in the early hours over weekends. This is where enforcement will be most effective, not during the day and not with further restrictions.

This weekend just marked the turning point after the last big lie about enforcement. Just as happened with penalty points, people slowed down, took more care until they realised that they stood little chance of being caught so reverted to old habits. Similarly, the big fanfare about random breath tests outside pubs, towns and villages made people less likely to drink drive and to take more care generally even if they were sober as they thought there'd be a police presence. Old habits are returning as they realise there's still fook all cops on the road at that time of night.

The ideal, and obviously the long term solution is driver education. The short term solution is all about enforcement. This has been shown to work when people think it's going to happen.

Mitch Connor

the testing in this country is a joke - two of my friends failed for emergency stopping. On both occassions a person walked out in front of the car, so they hit the breaks (followed quickly by the clutch so as not to stall) and came to stop without hitting the idiot - both were failed for not moving down through the gears.

layke

But that's how you are supposed to emergency stop.

No gears increases the likelyhood of a skid.


Vegeta fantastic post.

Vegeta

layke wrote:

But that's how you are supposed to emergency stop.

No gears increases the likelyhood of a skid.


Vegeta fantastic post.

Thanks.

I am just sick and tired of it all.

Put plainly:
Education is practically non existent.
Our test is inadequate.
The waiting times are terrible.
Our roads are in poor condition.
Our roads are sign posted poorly.
There is a very limited garda presence on the roads (despite what they say).

Neither provisional drivers or full licensed drivers are to blame for the above.

Mitch Connor

Then i should be getting my money back of my driving instructor, and my mate should be getting it off his because we were both told to hit the brake followed by the clutch - were told not to worry about the gears because you are trying to stop in an emergency, the important thing is the brake and the clutch (clutch second)

layke

Tauren wrote:

Then i should be getting my money back of my driving instructor

Yes, clutch + brake should only be used at high speed from the official recomendation from what I remember.

Cerdito

Tauren wrote:

Then i should be getting my money back of my driving instructor, and my mate should be getting it off his because we were both told to hit the brake followed by the clutch - were told not to worry about the gears because you are trying to stop in an emergency, the important thing is the brake and the clutch (clutch second)

Totally agree with you. I was taught by two separate instructors that you can stop in any gear, with third preferrable. The old "going down through the gears" procedure stems from days where brakes weren't to be trusted, so engine braking was used as a failsafe.

My mother and father completely disagreed with this, leading me to be very confused. Your friends may have had "old-school" testers who don't subscribe to stopping in a higher gear than second.

peasant

slightly OT ...but here it goes:

An "emergency stop" contains the word EMERGENCY, so supposedly you're facing one in that moment.

Never mind bloody gears, hit the brakes, hit them as hard as you can and if you have ABS, hit them even harder.

Actually break with both feet, because this way you will press the clutch as well ...but keep your hands of the blooming gear lever and on your steering wheel, because breaking alone might not do the trick and you might also have to steer around the obstacle as well.

Whosoever teaches to "emergency break" while shifting down the gears, deserves to be run over by his/her pupils while performing said maneuvre.

Vegeta

peasant wrote:

Whosoever teaches to "emergency break" while shifting down the gears, deserves to be run over by his/her pupils while performing said maneuvre.

beautiful

SouperComputer

layke wrote:

No gears increases the likelyhood of a skid.

Where did you hear this?

In an emergancy situation, unless you plan heel-toeing (not reccomended during your test!!) you are more likely to lock the driven wheels by downshifting due to the braking effect of the engine. If you overdo it with a downshift you can lock the wheels even with an ABS system. This is espcially easy to do on a slippery surface, the compression of the engine can lock the wheels and no ABS is going to help you. All you can do is release the clutch and pray

It could be argued that having the transmission\engine engaged means that there is more mechanical inertia and its harder to lockup, this is true to an extent, the only problem is that its even harder to unlock the wheels as you then have to overcome this inertia to unlock!

Being ginger with the clutch on the downshift is fine and dandy, but if the wheels are already on the edge of traction, even a progressive release of the clutch can easily cause a lockup.


Anyway, back OT.... I prettymuch echo peasant's sentiment. Provsional drivers are not the problem, they are just an easy scapegoat IMO.

Jimoslimos

Tauren wrote:

Then i should be getting my money back of my driving instructor, and my mate should be getting it off his because we were both told to hit the brake followed by the clutch - were told not to worry about the gears because you are trying to stop in an emergency, the important thing is the brake and the clutch (clutch second)

Tauren you're correct, don't have a clue what layke is on about. I've done an emergency stop as part of the test in England and the way its taught is to keep both hands on steering wheel, brake firmly (not sharply) and just as the engine is about to stall (or car comes to a halt) engage clutch. This way (I was told) you have greater braking power for longer.

Anyhow regarding OT I can't see how doubly penalising learners for the same crime is going to solve anything. Sure once the restriction/probation period is up drivers will end up driving like newly qualified drivers again (i.e, postponing the inevitable)

Gary ITR

Iguana Bob wrote:

Go for gsr best car iv had so far in the wet its great beast to slide bit of a rip on petrol insuranc only 1800 21 provo licence with ma as main driver

Just read that in THIS post. This is the kind of thing we are up against, the car he's talking about is around 200bhp and he's lashing around sliding in wet conditions and withouit ever doing a driving test or worse still after failing a driving test

TKK

I would agree that the testing system and enforcement needs a major overhaul.

On a related note my sister did a test last week. Her instructor was told before she came back in (by another tester she got talking to) that she would fail based on which tester she had gone out with. She did. WTF sort of carry on is this?Her instructor is putting in a complaint.

Gary ITR

Everything needs to be looked at, there are some great stretches of road around this country like on the naas rd city centre bound at coca cola where the speed limit is 60kmph. it's three lanes wide for god's sake and there is always a speed check there, if it's not a gatso van it's a motorbike guard. Then we have numerous stretches where the limit is ridiculously high, small roads in the dublin mountains that are 80kmph. All this crap that different categories of roads have a set speed limit, every road should be individually assessed. And the guards should then stop putting their gatso vans and speed checks on the safer roads and stick them on the dangerous roads

smemon

im sick of this rubbish.

if the gardai and the government want to reduce road deaths, they should implement character judgement programmes and refuse to give people a license for example if they've convictions in other areas in the past.. if they've a violent history.. if they have modified cars to gain extra speed in any way.....

every young driver forks out about €4000 a year just to be on the road (car,insurance, tax, petrol, upkeep). These are the biggest earners for the government, so the government don't give a dam about the roads/drivers until someone dies.

if the government are so serious about saving lives, why don't they increase the driving age to 21 and fine L drivers without a passenger?

it's simple, but will result in lost revenue which the government view as more important than people's lives. :mad:

a zero tolerence system is what is needed to save lives...

Stark

smemon wrote:

every young driver forks out about €4000 a year just to be on the road (car,insurance, tax, petrol, upkeep). These are the biggest earners for the government, so the government don't give a dam about the roads/drivers until someone dies.

Young people are only charged extra for insurance, the money from which the government doesn't see. So I don't know what your point is there.

smemon wrote:

it's simple, but will result in lost revenue which the government view as more important than people's lives.

a zero tolerence system is what is needed to save lives...

Well we could ban cars altogether and we can all cycle round the country.

layke

smemon wrote:

if they have modified cars to gain extra speed in any way.....

Now now, you'll incure my wrath

Car Mad

smemon wrote:

im sick of this rubbish.

if the gardai and the government want to reduce road deaths, they should implement character judgement programmes and refuse to give people a license for example if they've convictions in other areas in the past.. if they've a violent history.. if they have modified cars to gain extra speed in any way.....

every young driver forks out about €4000 a year just to be on the road (car,insurance, tax, petrol, upkeep). These are the biggest earners for the government, so the government don't give a dam about the roads/drivers until someone dies.

if the government are so serious about saving lives, why don't they increase the driving age to 21 and fine L drivers without a passenger?

it's simple, but will result in lost revenue which the government view as more important than people's lives. :mad:

a zero tolerence system is what is needed to save lives...

wat a heap of bs.i thought it happend to be most of the people killed in road deaths was between the ages of 20-30 after passing there test thinking there brilliant drivers and can defy the laws of gravity.in there high powered cars which they can afford to insure coz they have there licence.any retard can pass a driving test.it doesnt make them a brilliant driver.how can they blame provisional licence drivers for road deaths when the cars there driving can bearly reach 100kmph.If u ask me if ur 17 and can afford to have a car u deserve to be on the road just like everyone else.

smemon

Stark wrote:

Young people are only charged extra for insurance, the money from which the government doesn't see. So I don't know what your point is there.

well, isn't there government tax on insurance or any service/product for that matter? therefore the government does see more cash from higher insurance premiums.

Also, there is more money in it for the government from speeding/traffic offences from young boy racers.

I'm taking a wild guess here, but young male drivers are the biggest earners of all for the government out of everyone on the road.

Yes, they want to stop people dying, but they're not exactly doing a whole lot about it if i can legally get into a car on my own and drive without having ever driven before in my life on our main roads.

Show me how that saves lives? It's great for us (young people) because it's soo easy to drive without going through the hassle of tests or the limitations of not having a full license for a few years.

Also, i know a man who's had a FULL license for over 20 years and never driven a car in his life.

Don't try and tell me this government is doing everything they can. All the amnesty folk should be made to do a test now. Also, young people should be tested a few times and monitered via sat nav technology for a year or two after passing the test.

THAT'S what a government who wants to save lives does. No-nonsense, rigid systems, enforced rules, over the top penalties for law breakers.

If i smashed in your cars windows, keyed your car and stabbed all your tyre's because you parked in a disbaled spot (not saying you ever have or anything!), you'd soon get the message not to do it again. Thats the approach we need from the government.

maidhc

smemon wrote:

I'm taking a wild guess here, but young male drivers are the biggest earners of all for the government out of everyone on the road.

Nope. The people who buy large executive cars are.

smemon wrote:

If i smashed in your cars windows, keyed your car and stabbed all your tyre's because you parked in a disbaled spot (not saying you ever have or anything!), you'd soon get the message not to do it again. Thats the approach we need from the government.

If I park in a disabled space my car is lifted. No property damaged, but my wallet substantially lighter. Fair deal all round.

There is no law that can prevent muppets from killing themselves and others by doing stupid things that ordinary people don't have the facility to imagine happening.

Sandwich

prospect wrote:

The 80Km/h speed limit is a load of balls, unless the government start upgrading oll our national roads to include regular overtaking lanes. Otherwise, one provisional driver goes out on a long stretch of road, and everyone else is stuck behind them doing 80Km/h.

Whats the problem with 80kph if its safer for all? Full licence folk need to do their bit also and comprimise for the safety of all.

While the issue of learners regarding their licence as a full one and driving unaccompanied, on motorways, for years etc needs to be sorted, concentrating on learners is misguided. Accidents happen because people CHOOSE to drive dangerously, not because they do not know how to drive drive safely. Leaners tend to be younger. But younger tends to mean more reckless. Not necessarily that Learners are more reckless though. Enforcing correct driving behaviour and strong penalties for those caught is what is required to reduce accidents.

No one gets into their car thinking that if they speed or drive with alcohol they will kill themselves - and rightly so - the chances are very small. But the penalty great for the unlucky few. But got in knowing there was a 1 in 10 chance say, that if they did so they would loose their licence, then the behaviour would change.

Like the idea of the Australian system to have licence loss for fewer points for learners and provisional drivers.

Sandwich

layke wrote:

But that's how you are supposed to emergency stop.

No gears increases the likelyhood of a skid.


Vegeta fantastic post.

I thought that if you have ABS you will stop quicker with less chance of skidding if you dont use the gears. Is this wrong?

Sandwich

layke wrote:

Now now, you'll incure my wrath

Of course not. We know you only mod the car to make sure that it can do speeds you wouldnt dream of doing anyway :rolleyes:

Rudolph Claus

As the NCT people are to do 250,000 tests between now and next June, the former excuse of the backlog should no longer be valid.

Have you a backup for this statement? I thought mi read they were going to take 40,000tests in that period. 250,000 seems little optimistic, that`d be 4800 a week?

I believe its 40000 and they`d have the chance to conduct an additional 5000 aswell if they can manage.

Also, i read on another boards thread here that the driving test is down to 28weeks now because of the nct subcontractors. Thats also complete bullsh-it,,, ffs they have only started testing and 50% will probably have to reapply. Do people not think about things before posting.

DublinWriter

The government, as usual, will go for the soft option - target provo drivers.

To be honest, how many of you have seen an 'L' plate car doing a Nigel Mansell impersonation? I was stuck for 20 miles on a major 'N' road today behind some twitchy young-wan doing 30Mph. Sure there was a big queue of irate traffic behind her, but no was was getting killed.

To me, as one poster put it, the problem is with the younger male driver who is typically within 24 months of passing his test and suddenly thinks that he's playing GTA when he gets behind the wheel of his Golf GTi.

Most modern cars can have their max speed electronically limited, and even older cars have a 'gaffer' mechanism to do the same thing. A simple suggestion would be to electronically cap the max speed at which newly qualified drivers could go; I know there's probabally a zillion issues with doing something like that, but at least it's a start in thinking about solutions.

peasant

Problem is, the "speed limiter" has to be in the drivers head, not in the car.

You can happily play "chicken" with two cars that are limited to 80 km/h each and at the combined impact speed of 160 km/h you can happily die doing so as well.