Xtra Vision monopoly

imeddyhobbs

I have been trying to get a copy of the wind that shakes the barley in xtra vision for the past 2 weeks but i cant get my hands on it

What i cant understand is why only xtra vision have this and other movies exclusively,surely this is a monopoly,anti-competitive and illegal.

If its not anti-competitive then how do they get away with it?

Saruman

They are not the only ones who have exclusive firsts. Chartbusters have them too.
Its not actually anti competitive when you think about it. Im sure other retailers competed for the chance to have it first for a few weeks. Xtra vision, being backed by blockbuster got there with the best offer. Its no big deal.

projectmayhem

imeddyhobbs wrote:

What i cant understand is why only xtra vision have this and other movies exclusively,surely this is a monopoly,anti-competitive and illegal.

they pay studios big money to get the release of movies early for rental customers. chartbusters have exclusives too, but clearly the fact that xtra-vision makes more money means they get more.

monopolising the market would be buying out chartbusters/movie magic... and anti-competitive would be blocking chartbusters/movie magic from ever getting those titles.

and yes, i do type this with my XV shirt on

lodgepole

Blame the distributor who was happy to take Xtravision's money for the privelage of the exclusive.

film_gonzo

In fairness I don't see the problem. Xtravision stump up the cash which allows alot of these films to get made, never mind to dvd in the first place. Xtravision do a certain amount of distribution themselves and without this money alot of these Irish movies would end up on some obscure dvd distribution title if they get that far at all.

sonic juice

it's like 5 euro to rent out a film now,man sometimes it's cheaper to buy it!

MisterAnarchy

film_gonzo wrote:

Xtravision stump up the cash which allows alot of these films to get made, never mind to dvd in the first place.

Better off if most of them werent made at all.
I've noticed that most of Xtravisions so called 'exclusive' films which they outrageously plug are utter crap yet the XTra mag hypes them up to be great.

Motley Crue

sonic juice wrote:

it's like 5 euro to rent out a film now,man sometimes it's cheaper to buy it!

Very true, I used to work for Xtra Vision (a few years back now) and it was incredible in the days before DVD downloading became such commonplace at how packed the video store was on a Saturday Night. 95% of every rental I dealt with in one six month period had to be on DVD format and sometimes if a tape version was left the customer would rather go home empty handed, even if he had a VHS machine.

J.R.HARTLEY

sonic juice wrote:

it's like 5 euro to rent out a film now,man sometimes it's cheaper to buy it!

isn't it ridiculously expensive or them to buy a rental copy though, over the €100 mark each

projectmayhem

sonic juice wrote:

it's like 5 euro to rent out a film now,man sometimes it's cheaper to buy it!

it's 4 or 5 times as much to buy a new release....

imeddyhobbs

I would see a problem with xtra vision or any other chain getting exclusive rights to movie rentals,what if you did'nt live near an xtra vision,your left 2 local stores in your town that cant rent these movies to you.

Deals like this are not good for consumers!they are good for the companies that create them!!

SoupyNorman

Xtra-Vision is an out and out rip off, I've worked there for two years and cant believe the price of a rental which is now 5.25 if there is no Chartbusters close by. Wasnt too bad when it was 2new releases for 2 nights for 8euro as that was a deal. Now you get the very same only 10euro and head office are getting us drones to communicate this incredible offer to our many customers.......MANY CUSTOMERS!

yes XV is overpriced but people come in thier droves to rent, I work in one of the busiest stores in this fair land and in 2years working there I have never had the time to actually 'watch' a film while in work.

People come in thier droves not just because of the lack of competition but also because they make an effort on securing such titles as 'the wind that shakes the barley' whats more the foreign film section is quite substantial.


I think when I recieve my honours degree and head out into the professional world to carve out a career I might stay in XV at wknds to hold onto my free rentals....muah ha ha ha.

MisterAnarchy

bravestarr082 wrote:

Wasnt too bad when it was 2new releases for 2 nights for 8euro as that was a deal

Yeah that was a decent enough deal to be fair.
Its 10.50 for two new releases in my local store for 2 nights,wow big deal.

bravestarr082 wrote:

Whats more the foreign film section is quite substantial.

That seems to be a new addition to the store,good idea in my opinion,even if I have about 10 times as many foreign titles as the shop.:D

Creamy Goodness

imeddyhobbs wrote:

I would see a problem with xtra vision or any other chain getting exclusive rights to movie rentals,what if you did'nt live near an xtra vision,your left 2 local stores in your town that cant rent these movies to you.

Deals like this are not good for consumers!they are good for the companies that create them!!

it's not *insert video store here*'s fault you live where you live. they set up where there's a demand. they are a business after all

projectmayhem

bravestarr082 wrote:

Xtra-Vision is an out and out rip off, I've worked there for two years and cant believe the price of a rental which is now 5.25 if there is no Chartbusters close by. Wasnt too bad when it was 2new releases for 2 nights for 8euro as that was a deal. Now you get the very same only 10euro

clearly haven't worked in a store near chartbusters then :rolleyes:

the €8 deal still exists in some stores... and doesn't chartbusters charge about €4.85 for a new rental? not exactly a huge discount... and customers agree it seems

SoupyNorman

projectmayhem wrote:

clearly haven't worked in a store near chartbusters then :rolleyes:

the €8 deal still exists in some stores... and doesn't chartbusters charge about €4.85 for a new rental? not exactly a huge discount... and customers agree it seems

Yeah very few stores have that deal still on. Its valid that Chartbusters charge near enough as much as XV but psychlogically staying under the 10euro mark for two DVD's can make or break that second rental. Getting 9.50 back from 20 squid for 2 DVD's (where the likelyhood is there are not great movies).

projectmayhem

bravestarr082 wrote:

(where the likelyhood is there are not great movies)

hardly the fault of XV now

Diogenes

Xtravisions deal is with the Irish Film Board. Xtravision paid a number of years ago to have exlusive domestic rights to all Irish Film Board productions. I'm not sure if it's a flat fee, an annuall fee, or a fixed contract (although my suspicion is that it was a flat once of payment).

A few years ago (actually, er five, bugger me I'm old) a friend of mine was running a small independent video store on Lesson St, Reel World. Middle brow, but there always was a demand for Irish films which he never had (this was around the time of Dancing at Lunghasa). He got very angry over the Xtravision exclusive deal, and rightly so, I'll explain why.

As an Irish Taxpayer, and employer, he was subsidising the Irish Film Industry. However the Irish Film Board directly robbed him, by allowing an American Company (Xtravision is owned by Blocbuster) to only stock new Irish films. As a taxpayer he felt he was subsidising a massive american company at the expense of his own business. He made a complaint to the revenue comission, who after a number of months got back him after their investigation and sent him a letter which said "We asked Xtravision's solicitors was this legit, and they assured us it was above board".

Within a year my mates shop had closed. Lovely video store, was even in an episode of Bachelor's Walk, great staff, who you could genuinely ask for a recommendation and get one. Not as arthouse as Laser, with plenty of mainstream, never enough new releases, but if they were out of what you were looking for they would make a recommendation. Plus if you tried to rent the avengers they'd talk you out of it.

Now days video shops are Xtravisions, an entire wall of "Harry Potter and the illiterate half chimp", and everything else scattered to one, side, any irish films they had an exclusive on, is only occasionally in the shop. A real shame.

SoupyNorman

projectmayhem wrote:

hardly the fault of XV now

Never implied that, as you should well know 99% of everything released is utter tripe. Only the free credits encourages me to rent as often as I do.

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

American Company (Xtravision is owned by Blocbuster)

while you are right in that BlockBuster owns XV, the deal doesn't extend beyond money. BlockBuster just want XV to reach targets. they don't give a rats ass about anything else. fact is, of all the subsidiaries BlockBuster owns (in the US, UK and beyond), XV is the only one that actually turns out a profit every year.

Diogenes wrote:

they would make a recommendation.

i have to make recommendations all the time. a lot of the time it falls on deaf ears, because people just want to see "Da Vinci Code" or whatever is being splashed all over TV promos lately.

Diogenes wrote:

Now days video shops are Xtravisions, an entire wall of "Harry Potter and the illiterate half chimp", and everything else scattered to one, side, any irish films they had an exclusive on, is only occasionally in the shop. A real shame.

first off, XV runs a supply & demand business. if people actually rented the foreign films then they'd get more. if people rented arthouse, they'd get more. if there's demand, they will gladly supply. but people just want to see the mainstream stuff, so that's what the company provides. because at the end of the day, like your friend discovered, that's business.

as for irish film exclusives, any exclusives have to be given priority shelf space, on the top, in full view with as many cases out as humanly possible (my shop has 75 copies of "the wind that shakes the barley"). they're by no means scattered to one side.

Diogenes

projectmayhem wrote:

while you are right in that BlockBuster owns XV, the deal doesn't extend beyond money. BlockBuster just want XV to reach targets. they don't give a rats ass about anything else. fact is, of all the subsidiaries BlockBuster owns (in the US, UK and beyond), XV is the only one that actually turns out a profit every year.

Okay what has this got to do this the point that Irish taxpayers are funding the irish filmboard, who have in turn sold exclusive rights to irish films to a us subisidy of an american company at the expense of small irish independent shops.

i have to make recommendations all the time. a lot of the time it falls on deaf ears, because people just want to see "Da Vinci Code" or whatever is being splashed all over TV promos lately.

Again and with respect because of the size and scope of the shop, this was a shop were staff could and were supposed to get out from behind the counter, and were supposed to spend, five ten minutes discussing what the last films they'd seen, what they enjoyed, what they are looking for. If the shop was busy, then you'd either steer them towards a 200 hundred plus video recommended shelf (picked by the staff) or select a half dozen titles and suggest them look and and come up with some ideas and you'd come back to them after dealing with another customer.

first off, XV runs a supply & demand business. if people actually rented the foreign films then they'd get more. if people rented arthouse, they'd get more. if there's demand, they will gladly supply.

Um crap. You've got a junior cert understanding of economics. Xtravision replicate cinema release tactics, when a video is released they mass buy (or lease a title which is what video chains do) and then subsidise advertising in a title.

but people just want to see the mainstream stuff, so that's what the company provides. because at the end of the day, like your friend discovered, that's business.

No sorry people don't.People who walk into a video story and are faced with a massive wall of harry potter movies, american blocbusters, and a "recent release wall" which charitabiliy will contain anything that was in a cinema since Bush took office, get confused. When the rest of the shop is a such a hodge podge of random ill thought out nonsense without any attempt at a coherant section, or thought put into the organisation of films... Jesus, it's happened to me, I've nearly found myself in a blocbusters getting teh Jon Bon Jovi vampire movie, just because I cannot comphrend what is being inflicted upon me.

Seriously can you look me in the eye and say theres any logic to your foreign/classic section? Is it even in alphabetical order? Is the three colours trilogy together? Is there any attempt to sort by language? By director?

as for irish film exclusives, any exclusives have to be given priority shelf space, on the top, in full view with as many cases out as humanly possible (my shop has 75 copies of "the wind that shakes the barley"). they're by no means scattered to one side.

For now. How many copies of Adam and Joe do you have? Spin the bottle? Dancing at Lunghasa? The Commitments? (And I'm getting only warmed up here)

See Xtravision works on economies of scale if they overwhelm the market for new releases they dominate, and they've created this market model, where that is the dominate force for video sales. Because it can bulk order it can undercut the smaller shops by up to 30 or 40 euro a title (it costs about 100euro for a leased to rent dvd)

The video store I mentioned made it's bread and butter from it's non new releases, people came in looking for the third man, or a good movie on a wednesday night and knew and trusted the staff, when Xtravision could buy in bulk new releases at a fraction of the cost the manager was paying for his he was in trouble, end of story.

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

Okay what has this got to do this the point that Irish taxpayers are funding the irish filmboard, who have in turn sold exclusive rights to irish films to a us subisidy of an american company at the expense of small irish independent shops.

nothing, i didn't address the irish film board because i don't know enough about it to comment... i'm merely pointing out the relationship blockbuster has to the irish consumer... i.e. none.

Diogenes wrote:

Um crap. You've got a junior cert understanding of economics. Xtravision replicate cinema release tactics, when a video is released they mass buy (or lease a title which is what video chains do) and then subsidise advertising in a title.

first off, i have gone beyond junior cert economics... no need to drop into the murky world of insults here, we're only talking about a shop for christs sake. they only subsidise advertising on major titles like "da vinci code". only select titles each quarter (possibly 2 or 3 per quarter) have a deal like that with xtra-vision. and even beyond that, the titles get subsidised by meteor or 3 for deals with the phones, so xtra-vision simply becomes an agent in the deals.

Diogenes wrote:

No sorry people don't.People who walk into a video story and are faced with a massive wall of harry potter movies, american blocbusters, and a "recent release wall" which charitabiliy will contain anything that was in a cinema since Bush took office, get confused. When the rest of the shop is a such a hodge podge of random ill thought out nonsense without any attempt at a coherant section, or thought put into the organisation of films... Jesus, it's happened to me, I've nearly found myself in a blocbusters getting teh Jon Bon Jovi vampire movie, just because I cannot comphrend what is being inflicted upon me.

new releases are new releases. the brand new stuff is always given prime shelf space, at eye level. if you can't see it, ask for it from staff. that's what staff is for. back catalogue stuff is divided up by comedy, drama, action and sci-fi, as well as a childrens section. most of them can be deciphered by a little sticker on the side.

if you get intimidated by the amount of selection, or "lack of organisation", then don't go to xtra-vision. unlike laser, we don't have 2 floors of space to organise everything out... and the customers generally only want to get new releases in the first place. that's where the money is. XV aren't going to prioritise the tiny minority of people who go to the back cat section for specific films.

Diogenes wrote:

Is there any attempt to sort by language? By director?

i've never been to a video store that sorted by director. language yes, but there isn't enough foreign film (in my store anyway) to even have a foreign "section" that's sorted like tower records or something. instead it has a full shelf space...

Diogenes wrote:

For now. How many copies of Adam and Joe do you have? Spin the bottle? Dancing at Lunghasa? The Commitments? (And I'm getting only warmed up here)

adam and paul, i assume you mean. there's feckin loads of copies of those films. adam & paul is a running joke in the company because they offloaded so many of them.

Diogenes wrote:

Because it can bulk order it can undercut the smaller shops by up to 30 or 40 euro a title (it costs about 100euro for a leased to rent dvd)

that's business

Diogenes wrote:

The video store I mentioned made it's bread and butter from it's non new releases, people came in looking for the third man, or a good movie on a wednesday night and knew and trusted the staff, when Xtravision could buy in bulk new releases at a fraction of the cost the manager was paying for his he was in trouble, end of story.

again, that's business. your friend offered a service different to XV if he had mainly older films, or foreign films. clearly there's no market for that, if his business failed...

Goodshape

Chartbusters near me have a fairly decent world cinema section - right inside the door actually, it's pretty much the first thing you see. I go there specifically for that and it's great, although to my annoyence I have seen a few Irish films in there, things like The Commitments and even recent films like Pavee Lackeen.

Really annoys me that someone would have to look through the 'World Cinema' section to find a film made at home.

The Xtra-Vision close by is fairly useless alright. If you're after a blockbuster big-release movie then alright, they're more likely to have a copy than anyone else, but if you're just going in for a browse it can be a bit difficult at times to see past the wall of "Generic American Blockbuster 3, UNSEEN EDITION!!".

But that's alright to be honest. Like I said, I'll just go to Chartbusters or somewhere else to pick up a decent movie (and still have the choice of a blockbuster if need be). Xtra-Vision is like the UCI Cinemas of the video rental world.. they've got a bit of choice, sure, but it seems to me that there primary audienence are those folk that just want some bubble-gum for the eyes -- and there's plenty of them so as a business model it's probably A-OK.

SoupyNorman

Goodshape wrote:

The Xtra-Vision close by is fairly useless alright. If you're after a blockbuster big-release movie then alright, they're more likely to have a copy than anyone else, but if you're just going in for a browse it can be a bit difficult at times to see past the wall of "Generic American Blockbuster 3, UNSEEN EDITION!!".

Yes, but the masses are out to see "Generic American Blockbuster 3, UNSEEN EDITION!!". Thats why XV arent *too* concerned with pleasing the more refined film viewers. I see it week in week out people come up to me.......

Customer: "what can ya recommend"

Me:Eh, The Machinist, Howls Moving Castle, Onk Bak, Old Boy, Silent Hill.....I could go on.

Customer: "Really!, Cool so I'll just have a quick look at what else is out.

>Customer approaches me after 10 minutes having disgarded my recommendations and hands me the cover of 'Mercenery Out For Vengence' (staring Steven Segal) and 'Date Movie' and then have the gaw to give out about the films the following week.

Sometimes I like to be mean and recommend 'Palindromes' of a bit of David Lynch to people who annoy me.

johnny_ultimate

Looking for a job in XV at the moment so not going to be too critical in any case
But in my town the XtraVision is much better than Advance Vision for rarer releases. Its my primary place to get some of the more obscure indie stuff, whereas in AV id be hard pressed to find a copy of anything decent. And renting a DVD is still much cheaper than the cinema, even at over 5 euro a DVD.
And there's a big XV in my neighbouring town which is superb - great selection, cheap games etc...
So I must admit XV isnt too bad at all
And I may be mistaken but Im pretty sure XV have a stake in some of their so called XClusives - esepcially the Irish ones. I remember the logo appearing on Adam & Paul or something like that in the cinema.
And does it still cost 100 euro to buy a rental DVD

Diogenes

johnny_ultimate wrote:

And I may be mistaken but Im pretty sure XV have a stake in some of their so called XClusives - esepcially the Irish ones.

See my post re xtravision and the film board

I remember the logo appearing on Adam & Paul or something like that in the cinema.
And does it still cost 100 euro to buy a rental DVD

Not to buy to lease, you see that "not for rental" on the dvds to buy in shops? That a 100 euro to a lease a copy that you are allowed to legally rent out.

imeddyhobbs

johnny_ultimate wrote:

Looking for a job in XV at the moment so not going to be too critical in any case

Do you think they are watching you?

projectmayhem

imeddyhobbs wrote:

Do you think they are watching you?

he should

<_<
>_>

tvnutz

Ye I work in a fairly large Xtra-Vision store,and what people want are the big releases. The last 3 weeks you would be very lucky to get the Da Vinci Code and Wind that Shakes they Barley. We have about 75 copies of each. Thats what people want. So thats what Xtra Vision buy.

I wouldn't mind if they got at least one copy each of some old movies,Irish ones as well. Just to have. But the thing is,they probably did have them at some stage. When you get movies in,they rent for a while and then some of them are put to previously viewed and sold off. There are then a few left for rental. However,since people don't give a toss about something that isn't theirs,the discs get ruined and half of them go faulty. We have about 5 Adam and Paul on the computer but only one that you could rent. The rest are too damaged. So eventually you just run out of some titles.

also good point by bravestar,if someone asks you is "waiting" good. You say no,but so and so is good,they just go ahead and get waiting. Also I have lost count of how many times people have come back an hour after renting saying they didn't realise the movie was in a different language,could they swap it for something else. Obviously people don't want foreign movies.

Diogenes

tvnutz wrote:

Ye I work in a fairly large Xtra-Vision store,and what people want are the big releases. The last 3 weeks you would be very lucky to get the Da Vinci Code and Wind that Shakes they Barley. We have about 75 copies of each. Thats what people want. So thats what Xtra Vision buy.

No sorry thats what people get, thats what people put up with because they don't have a choice. Xtravision lease 30,000 copies of the Da Vinci code. Because of economies of scale they get these at a reduced price than the independents. Because they've heavily invested in the Da Vinci code, they advertise it endlessly.

If you look in an Xtravision, the new releases have an absurd prominence, the recent releases are anything that has waved in the direction of a cinema this millenium.

Xtravision don't work on the assumption everyone wants to watch the DaVinci code, Xtravision works under the principle that in order to be profitable, the majority of it's customers hasto rent the DaVinci code.

I wouldn't mind if they got at least one copy each of some old movies,Irish ones as well. Just to have. But the thing is,they probably did have them at some stage. When you get movies in,they rent for a while and then some of them are put to previously viewed and sold off.

Again sorry not true. Ever read the trades? Old movies get re released all the time. You think lazer in ranelagh and george's street stays in business because, what? People in Dublin 2 and 4 have better taste in movies?

Xtravision managers don't really have much say in what they sell, and they don't order in movies dependent on the taste of their customers, theres no point (From a purely economic standpoint) in xtravision ordering 500 copies of the criterian version of cool hand luke. Why? Because they won't get their "30,000 copies" discount. Because it'll only be rented once maybe twice a month in a few shops. On a pure economies of scale it's not worthwhile them bothering.

There are then a few left for rental. However,since people don't give a toss about something that isn't theirs,the discs get ruined and half of them go faulty. We have about 5 Adam and Paul on the computer but only one that you could rent. The rest are too damaged. So eventually you just run out of some titles.

Actually thats another reason my friend gave up, he felt dvds were too easily damaged and he'd spend a fortune replacing stock.

also good point by bravestar,if someone asks you is "waiting" good. You say no,but so and so is good,they just go ahead and get waiting. Also I have lost count of how many times people have come back an hour after renting saying they didn't realise the movie was in a different language,could they swap it for something else. Obviously people don't want foreign movies.

See thats a rookie, Xtravision staff employee mistake. The correct way to answer a question "is this good" is to answer it with another question "well what are you in the mood for?" and to follow that up with "well what have you seen recently and liked?"

People want foreign films, just not everyone, every night. You ask people, you don't assume. The exception in my day was The Avengers and the Blackout both had a free return before an hour was up policy, we also had a standard warning about couples renting "in the company of men";)

man of god

in my experience people do not want foreign films. i worked in a big xtravision in a not so nice area and the vast majority of the customers didn't want to know about foreign films, obviously thats gonna be different down around leeson st and the like.

either way i don't think xtravision are not a nice company to work for, or rent in.
god bless any of yis still there.

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

Xtravision don't work on the assumption everyone wants to watch the DaVinci code, Xtravision works under the principle that in order to be profitable, the majority of it's customers hasto rent the DaVinci code.

and how does that work exactly? video rental is a supply & demand business. you can't force people to rent da vinci code. if people want it, they'll go get it. and the demand would be such that xv invests heavily in it, because it was popular in the cinema and the natural assumption is that people will want to rent it. the same way xv invested heavily in x-men3 and now in ice age 2.

Diogenes wrote:

Again sorry not true. Ever read the trades? Old movies get re released all the time. You think lazer in ranelagh and george's street stays in business because, what? People in Dublin 2 and 4 have better taste in movies?

laser has a different business model. i bet laser's profits are marginal, and only because they can charge whatever they like on DVDs, because there's nowhere else you can get certain titles (i've sent many people from my XV store straight off to laser). XV is a huge company who's aim is to be as profitable as possible, and they achieve that by leasing out the most amount of "big" movies at any given time.

Diogenes wrote:

Xtravision managers don't really have much say in what they sell, and they don't order in movies dependent on the taste of their customers, theres no point (From a purely economic standpoint) in xtravision ordering 500 copies of the criterian version of cool hand luke. Why? Because they won't get their "30,000 copies" discount. Because it'll only be rented once maybe twice a month in a few shops. On a pure economies of scale it's not worthwhile them bothering.

that's not entirely true. most DVDs released (foreign and obscure included) are on XV's systems. in the majority of stores though, those titles would be on a stock level of 0 for eternity. but if there's demand in a certain store for a certain title (eg. a film was made in the area, or people just seem to enjoy tartan asia extreme a lot) a manager can order it in via stock requisition. after that, it's up to XV's warehouse people to find and post it off in the weekly delivery.

Diogenes

projectmayhem wrote:

and how does that work exactly? video rental is a supply & demand business. you can't force people to rent da vinci code. if people want it, they'll go get it. and the demand would be such that xv invests heavily in it, because it was popular in the cinema and the natural assumption is that people will want to rent it. the same way xv invested heavily in x-men3 and now in ice age 2.

We could really get into a debate about consumer supply and demand, the wallmart effect and peoples tastes. If you like.

However if you go into any Xtravision the first thing you are presented with is your brand new releases, a wall of DaVinci's or Harry Potters. No thought or effort goes into the rest of the store with decent films thrown in among drek. Every effort is made to push the new releases, at the expense of anything else.

Seriously I have trouble walking into an Xtravision if I don't have a very specific film in mind.

laser has a different business model. i bet laser's profits are marginal, and only because they can charge whatever they like on DVDs, because there's nowhere else you can get certain titles (i've sent many people from my XV store straight off to laser).

Lazer don't charge what they want, they've an extremely reasonable flat rate which they charge for all their movies, (bar new releases), so claiming lazer is gouging people is BS.

XV is a huge company who's aim is to be as profitable as possible, and they achieve that by leasing out the most amount of "big" movies at any given time.

Thank you. So you're admitting XV is a ruinous cancer that limits choice, and monopolises the market place at the expense of smaller stores and peoples ability to watch a variety of films.

that's not entirely true. most DVDs released (foreign and obscure included) are on XV's systems. in the majority of stores though, those titles would be on a stock level of 0 for eternity. but if there's demand in a certain store for a certain title (eg. a film was made in the area, or people just seem to enjoy tartan asia extreme a lot) a manager can order it in via stock requisition. after that, it's up to XV's warehouse people to find and post it off in the weekly delivery.

So how many people have to make how many requests to get a single film?

Xtravision on both Appian Way and Ranelagh Triangle both have foreign sections that are far more expanded than their average shop in an attempt to lure customers away from Lazer....

Smurfpiss

just thought I'd add my 2 cents..
I live in maynooth, and up until about a year ago we had two dvd rental places, moviemaster and xtravision.
Moviemaster was, without question, the better store of the two. Unfortunately, it closed down last year, forcing me to go to xtravision. Most depressing thing was that the manager for moviemaster was there behind the counter in an xtravision polo shirt, looking miserable.

The new release section was incoherent and 90% rubbish, and after that there was no hope of browsing by category. I'd say 50-60% of floor and shelf space went to games, music,dvds and food for sale. 30% went to new releases and 10-20% went to all the other categories. which meant that you had to browse the dvds by the spine, which is a pain in the ass.
I haven't been back since.

The sad reality is that only the likes of xtravision will survive because they pander to the average blockbuster dullard and make most of their revenue on selling crap chart music and acting as a meteor agent etc.
These days dvds are so cheap that you may as well buy the dvd in hmv or tower etc. and most movie buffs do. So it's fairly clear as to why xtravision change its focus from renting to selling.
Rental stores with an actual respectable catalogue and presentation, (like moviemaster) are simply going out of business. And all we'll be left with is crap like xtravision.

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

However if you go into any Xtravision the first thing you are presented with is your brand new releases, a wall of DaVinci's or Harry Potters. No thought or effort goes into the rest of the store with decent films thrown in among drek. Every effort is made to push the new releases, at the expense of anything else.

depends on the shop layout. first thing you're presented with in my store is a gondola with phone stuff. turn to your left and you've the cd's directly there, rental wall curling around the back wall and back cat in the middle. on the right is all of the games rental/sale stuff.

Diogenes wrote:

Seriously I have trouble walking into an Xtravision if I don't have a very specific film in mind.

consumer choice. vote with your feet. i.e. don't go if it's such a problem to you

Diogenes wrote:

Lazer don't charge what they want, they've an extremely reasonable flat rate which they charge for all their movies, (bar new releases), so claiming lazer is gouging people is BS.

last time i was there (and i admit, it's been a while... i'm not up to speed on asian cinema anymore) there were differing prices for dvd's, and the ones they had that tower had were more expensive there then in tower, which says a lot.

Diogenes wrote:

Thank you. So you're admitting XV is a ruinous cancer that limits choice, and monopolises the market place at the expense of smaller stores and peoples ability to watch a variety of films.

if the demand was there from people to watch a wider range of films, then laser would be as big as xv and your mates store would still be there. bitch about xv's monopoly and profiteering all you want, but in the end if the customers weren't there, xv would either cease to exist or change it's business model. people want "da vinci code" and a poster outside saying "we have 75 copies of the wind that shakes the barley"...

Diogenes wrote:

So how many people have to make how many requests to get a single film?

i had a request today in fact, and i've written it down so later in the week when stock is being ordered, i can get it in for the girl who asked for it.

Diogenes wrote:

Xtravision on both Appian Way and Ranelagh Triangle both have foreign sections that are far more expanded than their average shop in an attempt to lure customers away from Lazer....

because demand is clearly there for it...

Smurfpiss wrote:

Most depressing thing was that the manager for moviemaster was there behind the counter in an xtravision polo shirt, looking miserable.

i'm sure that gun keeping him working in xv as a miserable so-and-so is really awful :rolleyes:

Smurfpiss wrote:

The sad reality is that only the likes of xtravision will survive because they pander to the average blockbuster dullard and make most of their revenue on selling crap chart music and acting as a meteor agent etc.

enough people like it to make the company profitable. this has been my point here, and why i'm even bothering in this thread. not to defend xv. i don't care about xv as an entity. the fact that people are moaning about the type of company it is annoys me to no end. it is what it is, and it's successful at it because there's huge public demand for it. if there was huge public demand for obscure film to rent, laser would be monopolising the market.

Smurfpiss wrote:

These days dvds are so cheap that you may as well buy the dvd in hmv or tower etc. and most movie buffs do. So it's fairly clear as to why xtravision change its focus from renting to selling.
Rental stores with an actual respectable catalogue and presentation, (like moviemaster) are simply going out of business. And all we'll be left with is crap like xtravision.

xv's primary source of income is still rental, and that's not likely to change for a long time.

and again, if xv was so awful, why is it so successful? again... because the public want it. simple as that. there is choice. there's been a few stores name-dropped in this very thread that closed down for offering something different. they didn't close down because xv sent heavies in to torch the place. no, they closed down because the demand simply isn't there. why in the name of god would xv swap the huge profits it makes now to stock a huge back catalogue of movies that simply wont be rented enough to make money?

Time Magazine

Christ almight you'd swear Diogenes was treating business like it was an sanctimonious act. Xtra-vision are a supplier of popular DVDs. It's very simple, if Xtra-vision didn't do this somebody else would. I am a fan of good film but I'm wearing my blue shirt now with my nice little name badge too. I served probably about one hundred people their copy of the Da Vinci Code or whatever tonight. It's no different to selling Britney Spears CDs (which, incidentally, we also do).

Xtra-vision's exclusive deal with the Irish Film Board is absolutely unquestionably a Good Thing for Irish films like The Wind That Shakes The Barley and Accelerator. You can bet your ass that the contract for the stake was a competitive tendering process. Thus Xtra-vision are funding the production of Irish movies. Yes, they're doing this for their own self-interest but there is no anti-competitive practice in that. I study economics and if you want to argue about Xtra-vision's pricing policy (i.e. price-discrimination in several markets, competition being the determininant) then you have a case. The monopoly of The Wind ... Barley is not anti-competetive or anti-film. Without such a system you would have competition for less films; that is to say that in this instance it is more desireable to have a firm with two hundred stores nationally excluding others from the market for individual films as the exclusive agreement provides funding for more films. This, obviously, is the opinion of the Irish Film Board, who initiated the tendering process.

Xtra-vision's market is not those seeking artistic films. They hold a small selection of excellent films that don't rent well by any means, such as Amelie, One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest, The Blue Max and so on, but Xtra-vision would be losing even more money if they continued to do this. Even if each store had one copy of a "classic" (call it what you want), that's over two-hundred copies of that title. Do you think there's really a demand for two-hundred copies of Buono, Il Brutto, Il Cattivo, Il? If you think so, why don't XV stock it?

XV basically don't compete with the likes of Laser. I'm sure, if they bothered their arses to get a store in Temple Bar, it would provide for what the people want. They don't claim to be an arty-fart company and they no more than a reasonable sum doing it. How much do XV make? About €50,000 per store. So only about one person's salary. Out of a turnover of about €100m. It's not like they're raking it in. And they're not scabby with it. They pay me a reasonable enough wage. They're kind to staff and put on great parties for us. And they're extremely charitable, this is what Barretstown said of us: "Xtra-vision is one of Barretstown's most ardent and innovative supporters, a model for the kind of diverse and creative partnerships we seek to develop with our corporate donors. From direct donations to employee involvement, from cause-related marketing promotions to on-site team building activities, Xtra-vision has contributed to Barretstown's development since its inception, providing much more than the financial contribution. " Just last week, Xtra-vision organised a "Fun Day" of face-painting for kids etc in aid of Barretstown. They're profit-making activities, i.e. charging about 50c more a rental than Chartbusters, provide for all this.

There are far worse companies.

Diogenes

projectmayhem wrote:

depends on the shop layout. first thing you're presented with in my store is a gondola with phone stuff. turn to your left and you've the cd's directly there, rental wall curling around the back wall and back cat in the middle. on the right is all of the games rental/sale stuff.

So all the high profit stuff comes before anything else?

consumer choice. vote with your feet. i.e. don't go if it's such a problem to you

Okay someone who claims to have beyond a junior cert economics you'll understand a franchise operating at lost. Xtravision can afford to have a shop lose money, if it drives the competition out of business because afterwards they'll sweep up the market. Xtravision drive alternative business's out of the industry because they can afford to run several franchises at a loss to remove competition. I'd recommend a look at Naoimi Klein's "No Logo" to learn an accurate protrayl of the type of business model Xtravision adheres to.

Furthermore as someone who claims to like independent films, do you really think Xtravision's business model encourages off beat intelligent non mainstream films? Dvd rentals are a huge part of film revenue, if Xtravision only has 30 copies of Oldbody whats the incentive for the distributor to licence the film for rental in Ireland?

last time i was there (and i admit, it's been a while... i'm not up to speed on asian cinema anymore) there were differing prices for dvd's, and the ones they had that tower had were more expensive there then in tower, which says a lot.

No sorry tis a lie, theres no video or dvd in lazer for rent that is more than the price for an xtravision new release dvd (boxed sets not included).

if the demand was there from people to watch a wider range of films, then laser would be as big as xv and your mates store would still be there. bitch about xv's monopoly and profiteering all you want, but in the end if the customers weren't there, xv would either cease to exist or change it's business model. people want "da vinci code" and a poster outside saying "we have 75 copies of the wind that shakes the barley"...

Again for someone who claims to have a beyond junior cert claim of economies, and who admits that you need to wade through three rows of new releases, recent releases, Xbox and PS2 Games, and phone deals before you can reach anything else, should not be claiming that Xtravision is what people want. Xtravision is what people endure, because Xtravision swallow up competition and leave consumers with no choice, because they have the financial muscle behind them in the form of blockbuster.

i had a request today in fact, and i've written it down so later in the week when stock is being ordered, i can get it in for the girl who asked for it.

Which is? AND When? How often does your manager look at the trades and see that the criterian addittion of the unbearable lightness of being is out and knows some of his customers would love it, and orders it?

because demand is clearly there for it...

Yeah and right, You really think the staff of xtravision or it's collection(s) matched lazer,it was a desperate attempt to pull rentals away from the only real competition, I've rented from the appian way store,to describe the difference between the slack jawed dullard and the pretentious **** in Lazer makes the lazer lads look like lucid human beings.

i'm sure that gun keeping him working in xv as a miserable so-and-so is really awful :rolleyes:

How dare the bloke need to make his mortgage..

enough people like it to make the company profitable. this has been my point here, and why i'm even bothering in this thread. not to defend xv. i don't care about xv as an entity. the fact that people are moaning about the type of company it is annoys me to no end. it is what it is, and it's successful at it because there's huge public demand for it. if there was huge public demand for obscure film to rent, laser would be monopolising the market.

Fair enough, I'll be waiting for the next time you denounce low brow lowest common denominator retarded cinema....

xv's primary source of income is still rental, and that's not likely to change for a long time.

and again, if xv was so awful, why is it so successful? again... because the public want it. simple as that. there is choice. there's been a few stores name-dropped in this very thread that closed down for offering something different. they didn't close down because xv sent heavies in to torch the place. no, they closed down because the demand simply isn't there. why in the name of god would xv swap the huge profits it makes now to stock a huge back catalogue of movies that simply wont be rented enough to make money?

No you dullard Xtravision work on economies of scale they can have a shop loose money for years so it drives an independent shop out of business, and the manner that Xtravision mantains it's monopoly you may as well proclaim that Mc Donalds is the finest restaurant in the world because its so popular and it's aggressive business model proves Mc Donalds Big Mac is the best meal in the world. Or Wall Mart is the best shop in the world.

Its an infantile "prove" of self righteousness.

Diogenes

bravestarr082 wrote:

Yes, but the masses are out to see "Generic American Blockbuster 3, UNSEEN EDITION!!". Thats why XV arent *too* concerned with pleasing the more refined film viewers. I see it week in week out people come up to me.......

Customer: "what can ya recommend"

Me:Eh, The Machinist, Howls Moving Castle, Onk Bak, Old Boy, Silent Hill.....I could go on.

Did you try and attempt to guess the customers taste? Their mood? What they've seen recently?

Nothing annoys me more than a film snob inflicting his tastes on people who don't or may not share his tastes, A good film staff doesn't do a Randall he actually finds out what the audience or renter wants to watch, I worked in a video store where we could pick out a multitude of films for the 7-11 and 11-13 year old the ultimate challenge, considering how few films are really released for their age group, I've lost count of the number of parents who adore the indian in the closet...

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

So all the high profit stuff comes before anything else?

why don't you understand that it's a business first and foremost? it's not that difficult to conceive of a company who's there to make money before be a charitable organisation...

Diogenes wrote:

Okay someone who claims to have beyond a junior cert economics you'll understand a franchise operating at lost. Xtravision can afford to have a shop lose money, if it drives the competition out of business because afterwards they'll sweep up the market. Xtravision drive alternative business's out of the industry because they can afford to run several franchises at a loss to remove competition. I'd recommend a look at Naoimi Klein's "No Logo" to learn an accurate protrayl of the type of business model Xtravision adheres to.

xtra-vision could no doubt operate at a loss, but it doesn't because blockbuster as a whole is going down the crapper, and xtra-vision is the only remaining franchise owned by blockbuster that actually makes money. they can't be the business that opens 7 stores next to a laser to bully them out, because it eats into the profit that's proping blockbuster up.

Diogenes wrote:

Furthermore as someone who claims to like independent films, do you really think Xtravision's business model encourages off beat intelligent non mainstream films? Dvd rentals are a huge part of film revenue, if Xtravision only has 30 copies of Oldbody whats the incentive for the distributor to licence the film for rental in Ireland?

claims? quit the judgemental attitude buddy. i adore indie cinema, and could draw a map of the IFI from memory alone.

also, xv have no incentive from customers to have 30 copies of oldboy or infernal affairs, etc. etc. if the demand isn't there, why would you bother? also, tartan asia are loving xv right now. we're getting more in every single week. they clearly see an incentive.

Diogenes wrote:

No sorry tis a lie, theres no video or dvd in lazer for rent that is more than the price for an xtravision new release dvd (boxed sets not included).

should have been specific, i meant sales.

Diogenes wrote:

Again for someone who claims to have a beyond junior cert claim of economies, and who admits that you need to wade through three rows of new releases, recent releases, Xbox and PS2 Games, and phone deals before you can reach anything else, should not be claiming that Xtravision is what people want. Xtravision is what people endure, because Xtravision swallow up competition and leave consumers with no choice, because they have the financial muscle behind them in the form of blockbuster.

again, like your mates shop... there WAS choice, and it went down the ****ter. people didn't choose your mates fantastic shop that gave you head whilst renting the most amazing films ever made over the endurance test that appears to be xv... why? why did the consumer vote with their feet and decide xv was better then your mates fantastic shop? xv can have all the money behind it in the world, but it makes no different because money does not equal sales.

also, as i said, blockbuster is on the verge of filing for bankruptcy. they've no financial muscle what-so-ever...

Diogenes wrote:

Which is? AND When? How often does your manager look at the trades and see that the criterian addittion of the unbearable lightness of being is out and knows some of his customers would love it, and orders it?

if enough people ask for it we can go order it. if we can't, i usually just point people in the way of laser...

Diogenes wrote:

slack jawed dullard

do i really come across that way?

Diogenes wrote:

Fair enough, I'll be waiting for the next time you denounce low brow lowest common denominator retarded cinema....

you're not the slick-back gel-haired guy from BBC2's reviewnight, are you?

Diogenes wrote:

No you dullard

keep the insults flowing. i won't part-take in any sort of debate with someone who believes in their own self-richeousness to the extent that the mere suggestion that i work in a globalised company that appeases the mass market inherently means i'm a dullard.

stakey

Xtra Vision's business model has been anti-competitive from the 'get go'. One of it's primary business goals has been the eradication of the independant video trade 'by any means' necessary with Xtra Vision's own internal business planners calling the end of the independant video business at around year end 2006/year beginning 2007.

One of the primary means by which Xtra Vision has chosen to eradicate the independant video store is by the lucrative 'exclusives', let's not kid ourselves here with regards to how much money Xtra Vision/Blockbuster put into these films. It's usually the smallest of the heap covering basic costs or gaining exclusive promotional ties.

My family ran an independant video store in a town that had numerous independant video stores and an Xtra Vision. We actually had close enough dealings with *ALL* video stores in the town including Xtra Vision (hence my knowledge of some of the nice tactics above). That town now only has 1 or 2 of the independant video stores left showing the extent of Xtra Vision's anti-competitive activities.

Imagine how damaging it can be to a video shop's customer base if 1) you cannot compete with Xtra Visions 'exclusives' which are advertised on TV and radio as such 2) that you will take one month to stock the latest Irish release and 3) that if your customer asks where they can rent these new Irish releases that you are either a) forced to lie and say it's not out or b) tell them to drop down to there local Xtra Vision.

For the interest of the original question, the Irish Film Board does not see Xtra Vision's "exclusives" as anti-competitive. A petition by hundreds of independant video store owners and managers complaining that they are not even given the option to seek access to these new releases to the Irish Film Board was rejected in writing. Numerous requests since have also been rejected.

If that's not anti-competitive then Microsoft are the saints of the software industry.

Jack O'Bauer

I reckon the first poster must be going to the smallest Xtra Vision in Ireland because the last time i was in it, there were about 50 unrented copies on the shelf!!!!! I rented it and i have to say, It was ****E. :eek:

Time Magazine

deconstruct wrote:

Xtra Vision's business model has been anti-competitive from the 'get go'. One of it's primary business goals has been the eradication of the independant video trade 'by any means' necessary with Xtra Vision's own internal business planners calling the end of the independant video business at around year end 2006/year beginning 2007.

One of the primary means by which Xtra Vision has chosen to eradicate the independant video store is by the lucrative 'exclusives', let's not kid ourselves here with regards to how much money Xtra Vision/Blockbuster put into these films. It's usually the smallest of the heap covering basic costs or gaining exclusive promotional ties.

Xtra-vision of course compete and try to put other businesses out of the market; that's competition in its purest form. There is, ceteris paribus, nothing wrong with this. Have you much of a problem with, say, the ESB's monopoly? I'd point out to you that although the threat of price raises are greatly raised in the circumstance of monopoly, the Treaty of Rome does not forbid monopolisation but rather the abuse thereof. I have yet to see Xtra-vision abuse their dominant market position. Yeah, their movies are €5.25 compared to Chartbuster's €4.75 (or whatever it is), but that is just a higher price - an occurance which happens in oligopolisitic and imperfectly competitive markets everywhere. Pantene is slightly more expensive than Head and Shoulders but there exists no problem here.

Furthermore, if Xtra-vision gained a 100% market share, there would still exist competition. The market is no longer domestic. I installed broadband (finally) only yesterday. I have now have access to streams cheaper than renting a disc. There will come a point, not much higher than the current situation of €5.25, where it's just not worth renting a disc instead of a stream. Xtra-vision face the possibility, if they raise their prices, of becoming an impotent monopoly.

With regard to the exclusive agreement with the Irish Film Board, there is clearly a trade-off for the Irish consumer/film-lover. It is the choice is to have greater funding and therefore choice in the quantity and quality of Irish films at the expense of a more competitive rental market (which already exists in a semi-competitive context) or not. The Irish Film Board's opinion, as you mentioned, is unambiguously in favour of having greater choice in films.

Are you suggesting they have ulterior motives?

If that's not anti-competitive then Microsoft are the saints of the software industry.

The two cases are wholly different. No comparison.

Diogenes

projectmayhem wrote:

why don't you understand that it's a business first and foremost? it's not that difficult to conceive of a company who's there to make money before be a charitable organisation...

Yes yes pure business yadda yadda yadda, tell you what if you feel thats acceptable practice, I suggest you only eat McDonalds, and wear Nike.

xtra-vision could no doubt operate at a loss, but it doesn't because blockbuster as a whole is going down the crapper, and xtra-vision is the only remaining franchise owned by blockbuster that actually makes money. they can't be the business that opens 7 stores next to a laser to bully them out, because it eats into the profit that's proping blockbuster up.

Okay I've tried to explain this several times and you don't seem to get your head around it. So I suppose I'll have to explain it using really small words

Suppose you've got a town with two small independent video stores. Xtravision moves it. For the first few years they can operate the shop at a loss, because it's part of the franchise, Xtravision can prop it up, undercut the two other shops. The two other shops cannot operate at a loss, and so must close. Now you have driven two shops out of business cost two Irish taxpayers their livelyhood.

claims? quit the judgemental attitude buddy. i adore indie cinema, and could draw a map of the IFI from memory alone.

Wow that really long corridor must make that a real artistic challenge. :rolleyes:

also, xv have no incentive from customers to have 30 copies of oldboy or infernal affairs, etc. etc. if the demand isn't there, why would you bother? also, tartan asia are loving xv right now. we're getting more in every single week. they clearly see an incentive.

It's not a question of having 30copies of oldboy its a question of having a wide selection of older classic films, foreign films etc, with some thought and effort put into finding and sourcing them.


should have been specific, i meant sales.

again, like your mates shop... there WAS choice, and it went down the ****ter. people didn't choose your mates fantastic shop that gave you head whilst renting the most amazing films ever made over the endurance test that appears to be xv... why? why did the consumer vote with their feet and decide xv was better then your mates fantastic shop? xv can have all the money behind it in the world, but it makes no different because money does not equal sales.

:rolleyes:

Again seriously junior cert economics, having a bigger operation means you can operate using economies of scale and muscle out independent operation.

also, as i said, blockbuster is on the verge of filing for bankruptcy. they've no financial muscle what-so-ever...

Again thats nice but the way Xtravision has to operate is to open more and more stores so they can continue to dominate the market.

if enough people ask for it we can go order it. if we can't, i usually just point people in the way of laser...

And again do your manager look at wants coming out knows your consumers, make recommendations, order stuff he knows his customers.

do i really come across that way?

Well

you're not the slick-back gel-haired guy from BBC2's reviewnight, are you?

right now you're coming off as a bit of an as*hole.

keep the insults flowing. i won't part-take in any sort of debate with someone who believes in their own self-richeousness to the extent that the mere suggestion that i work in a globalised company that appeases the mass market inherently means i'm a dullard.

No but if you try and defend Xtravision as being good for consumer choice, and film in general I won't respect you.

Ibid wrote:

Xtra-vision of course compete and try to put other businesses out of the market; that's competition in its purest form. There is, ceteris paribus, nothing wrong with this. Have you much of a problem with, say, the ESB's monopoly? I'd point out to you that although the threat of price raises are greatly raised in the circumstance of monopoly, the Treaty of Rome does not forbid monopolisation but rather the abuse thereof. I have yet to see Xtra-vision abuse their dominant market position. Yeah, their movies are €5.25 compared to Chartbuster's €4.75 (or whatever it is), but that is just a higher price - an occurance which happens in oligopolisitic and imperfectly competitive markets everywhere. Pantene is slightly more expensive than Head and Shoulders but there exists no problem here.

But cant the manner a monopoly is created be illegal. Consider the ESB, when formed it was necessary to be a nationalised project, because electrification of Ireland was a project that could not be put out to tender, the state had to form a state subsidised company to do the work. Its only really in the last 20/30 years that the ESB has been profitable, and the sale, or deregulation would be a mamoth task. Xtravision's monopoly (or near monopoly is different. Oh and ESB doesn't have a monopoly over electricity production in ireland, there are alternatives.
http://www.sustainable.ie/directory/subcategory.php?id=41

Your shampoo analogy is also false. Pantene is a different product, containing different chemicals than Head and Shoulders, and therefore the change is price is acceptable, because there are substanify differences between the two projects. However in the case of the price difference between Xtravision and Chartbusters, there is no difference between the products offered. If I rent "The Da Vinci Code" from Xtravision it would be the exact same product as the copy I rent from Chartbuster. Just 50cents dearer.

Furthermore, if Xtra-vision gained a 100% market share, there would still exist competition. The market is no longer domestic. I installed broadband (finally) only yesterday. I have now have access to streams cheaper than renting a disc. There will come a point, not much higher than the current situation of €5.25, where it's just not worth renting a disc instead of a stream. Xtra-vision face the possibility, if they raise their prices, of becoming an impotent monopoly.

With respect, streaming music is an early adoptor thing, and beyond most people's ability. I've only managed to get my parents to work out the dvd player I got for them, Xtravisions market dominance will last for some time yet.

With regard to the exclusive agreement with the Irish Film Board, there is clearly a trade-off for the Irish consumer/film-lover. It is the choice is to have greater funding and therefore choice in the quantity and quality of Irish films at the expense of a more competitive rental market (which already exists in a semi-competitive context) or not. The Irish Film Board's opinion, as you mentioned, is unambiguously in favour of having greater choice in films.

With respect we don't know how benefical the terms of the deal were to the Film Board. Was it a once off fee? An annual fee? A per film fee? Does the Film Board share the rental profits?

We don't know, and they aren't saying. But hey it's not like a state body has ever shafted the taxpayers for risible short term benefits for themselves...

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

Suppose you've got a town with two small independent video stores. Xtravision moves it. For the first few years they can operate the shop at a loss, because it's part of the franchise, Xtravision can prop it up, undercut the two other shops. The two other shops cannot operate at a loss, and so must close. Now you have driven two shops out of business cost two Irish taxpayers their livelyhood.

and you don't understand that xtra-vision doesn't run any stores at a loss at all. i already said that twice. they don't lower their prices in any stores either, it's pretty much the same price across the entire country (bar some stores doing a 2 for €8 deal)

Diogenes wrote:

It's not a question of having 30copies of oldboy its a question of having a wide selection of older classic films, foreign films etc, with some thought and effort put into finding and sourcing them.

people don't want classic films to rent. my store tested this (it's one of the bigger stores that makes a healthy profit, so it's a good place to test the waters) by putting re-released "classic" movies. in the space of a month or so 2 of them were taken. they were given prime shelf space too. people want blockbusters, like i said... so xtra-vision adhere to that demand.

Diogenes wrote:

Again thats nice but the way Xtravision has to operate is to open more and more stores so they can continue to dominate the market.

yeah. there's more stores... but people don't have to go to them. my point was not the amount of stores xtra-vision operate from, but the fact that these stores get punters in, and your mates shop didn't.

Diogenes wrote:

right now you're coming off as a bit of an as*hole.

read your posts again and look at your insults to me before going down the "you're an a**hole" route...

Diogenes wrote:

No but if you try and defend Xtravision as being good for consumer choice, and film in general I won't respect you.

not once have i said xtra-vision is good or bad for consumer choice or film (irish or otherwise). i simply don't agree with the sentiment that xtra-vision is this all seeing eye of evil that desecrates other stores and film in ireland generally. they do what they do because the people clearly want what xtra-vision offers.

Diogenes wrote:

However in the case of the price difference between Xtravision and Chartbusters, there is no difference between the products offered. If I rent "The Da Vinci Code" from Xtravision it would be the exact same product as the copy I rent from Chartbuster. Just 50cents dearer.

then, as a consumer, you have the free and easy choice to rent the film from Chartbusters instead of Xtra-Vision...

deconstruct wrote:

Xtra Vision's own internal business planners calling the end of the independant video business at around year end 2006/year beginning 2007.

source?

deconstruct wrote:

One of the primary means by which Xtra Vision has chosen to eradicate the independant video store is by the lucrative 'exclusives', let's not kid ourselves here with regards to how much money Xtra Vision/Blockbuster put into these films. It's usually the smallest of the heap covering basic costs or gaining exclusive promotional ties.

i don't know what way xtra-vision deals with exclusives, and getting them, but obviously their offer is higher then chartbusters' or anyone elses, and it's clearly worth more to the studios then just releasing as normal in all rental stores nationwide. also, exclusives are not just negotiated on a "here's some cash, give me the movie" basis, they also discuss advertising etc.

deconstruct wrote:

showing the extent of Xtra Vision's anti-competitive activities.

could you explain their anti-competitive activities please? this seems to be the sour grape everyone is chewing on, and no one is explaining how they're pushing indie stores out. is it that they advertise a lot (because they advertise nationwide, not per store)? is it that their prices are somehow lower then indie stores? or do they send in heavies to torch indie stores to the ground?

deconstruct wrote:

Imagine how damaging it can be to a video shop's customer base if 1) you cannot compete with Xtra Visions 'exclusives' which are advertised on TV and radio as such 2) that you will take one month to stock the latest Irish release and 3) that if your customer asks where they can rent these new Irish releases that you are either a) forced to lie and say it's not out or b) tell them to drop down to there local Xtra Vision.

as an xtra-vision employee i've pointed many customers to laser (which is still indie i suppose) when we don't have a particular title. i'm not the only one who does this either. i also know that laser guys have sent customers to xtra-vision for particular titles (probably exclusives, as you say), so it's a give-and-take situation there.

deconstruct wrote:

For the interest of the original question, the Irish Film Board does not see Xtra Vision's "exclusives" as anti-competitive. A petition by hundreds of independant video store owners and managers complaining that they are not even given the option to seek access to these new releases to the Irish Film Board was rejected in writing. Numerous requests since have also been rejected.

the IFB and the studios involved in irish film obviously make more money from these exclusives then a "normal" release, which surely benefits the irish industry as a whole ?

Diogenes

projectmayhem wrote:

and you don't understand that xtra-vision doesn't run any stores at a loss at all. i already said that twice. they don't lower their prices in any stores either, it's pretty much the same price across the entire country (bar some stores doing a 2 for €8 deal)

I think you'll find your wrong. Remember I did work with someone who driven out as business and investigated Xtravision. He spoke and interviewed stores across ireland as they were being driven or fighting aganist being driven out of business.

But hey I'm sure your position as a minimum wage registery jocky gives you access to corporate policy and finances

people don't want classic films to rent. my store tested this (it's one of the bigger stores that makes a healthy profit, so it's a good place to test the waters) by putting re-released "classic" movies. in the space of a month or so 2 of them were taken. they were given prime shelf space too. people want blockbusters, like i said... so xtra-vision adhere to that demand.

And the existance of Lazer contradicts you. Did you promote said films, suggest them to customers, talk to them about them? Or did you shove them into the hap hazard shoved into a couple of shelves in the usual back of the shop position?

Do you know anything about sales displays and prominence and customer flow?

yeah. there's more stores... but people don't have to go to them. my point was not the amount of stores xtra-vision operate from, but the fact that these stores get punters in, and your mates shop didn't.

Wow and it's whistled over your head again. More stores means more orders, more orders mean bulk orders of new releases, which means a reduced price, undercutting the overheads of smaller stores.

Furthermore you really just cannot comphrend how your own organisation operates, and how it uncuts the smaller operator.

read your posts again and look at your insults to me before going down the "you're an a**hole" route...

Look I've tried to explain how a franchise works, you keep saying you understand economics but don't see to get the basics when explained to you in simple language, I got a little frustrated.

not once have i said xtra-vision is good or bad for consumer choice or film (irish or otherwise). i simply don't agree with the sentiment that xtra-vision is this all seeing eye of evil that desecrates other stores and film in ireland generally. they do what they do because the people clearly want what xtra-vision offers.

And again the economics elude you. Xtravision entered the marketplace which the kind of backing finance that an independent store cannot have. They have lower overheads cause they pay minimum wage to a bunch of kids, they get cheaper films because they can buy in bulk, they stock the same crap in every store.

One needs only to look at how walmart operates in the US to see how this is bad for film lovers and film makers in Ireland.

then, as a consumer, you have the free and easy choice to rent the film from Chartbusters instead of Xtra-Vision...

Wow Mc Donalds orbuger king, gosh the smorgisborg of endless flavours and choice is just bloody endless..

i don't know what way xtra-vision deals with exclusives, and getting them, but obviously their offer is higher then chartbusters' or anyone elses, and it's clearly worth more to the studios then just releasing as normal in all rental stores nationwide. also, exclusives are not just negotiated on a "here's some cash, give me the movie" basis, they also discuss advertising etc.

Not necessarily xtravision can as its position as market leader dictate terms, and threaten not to join in the advertising budget. You are once again making your corporate overlords (yes I am joking) the jolly green giant of business decisions wandering in and making the best deal for everyone.

could you explain their anti-competitive activities please? this seems to be the sour grape everyone is chewing on, and no one is explaining how they're pushing indie stores out. is it that they advertise a lot (because they advertise nationwide, not per store)? is it that their prices are somehow lower then indie stores? or do they send in heavies to torch indie stores to the ground?

I already have, you just want to ignore it.

as an xtra-vision employee i've pointed many customers to laser (which is still indie i suppose) when we don't have a particular title. i'm not the only one who does this either. i also know that laser guys have sent customers to xtra-vision for particular titles (probably exclusives, as you say), so it's a give-and-take situation there.

Er no. Theres only two lazers and both in dublin central, trying to suggest that this is some bizarre equalible split between a national company and a small two shop dublin central store is just bullsh*t.

the IFB and the studios involved in irish film obviously make more money from these exclusives then a "normal" release, which surely benefits the irish industry as a whole ?

Er and how do you know it is obvious? Do you know the terms of the deal with the Film Board and Xtravision? (Oh yeah register jockey,I forgot, you know all about your company's corporate financing) I've actually looked into the terms of this deal, and do not know the specifics of the deal.

What I do know is, if Xtravision become the only game in town, they can dictate terms to the Film Board over deal if and when it gets re negoiated. And having dealt with the film board I know they're capable of making inane and assisine decisions which has hurt the irish industry desperately.

Oh and I'm sure you'll say "yeah and so or what, gissus an example". 3 or 4 years ago when section 481 was up for debate the film boards lobbying was so hamf*ckingfisted that the decision over section 481 was literally left to the last minute. Now looking at how the British decision to pull their version of section 481 literally killed english film production six months previously, could the film board get its **** together to make a case that the department of finance make a quick decision? Could they f*ck. The decision was left to the last minute.

The result was no one wanted to film anything in 2004, because no one was willing to commit to anything in 2003 on the of chance that a quarter of it's budget would go if the budget pulled 481.

So what the boards decision in 2002 to introduce the "micro budget" initiative, because of bad decisions the year so few productions have been made, it's given us four years of underdone scripts, shoddily paid crews being paid less and less, and badly made films. Headrush anyone? Studs? Trouble with Sex? Zanzibar? Even the Good ones "Dead Bodies" or "Adam and Paul" have excelled on the back of so many appalling films.

The fact is since this exclusive deal has occured, the money for films have shrunk drasticaly. Now I dont blame Xtravision, exclusively, or point the finger at them at all, suggesting that the Xtravision exclusive deal is good for an industry that is in freefall, I'd ask you, what exactly has the Xtravision deal done thats visibly benefited the industry?

Time Magazine

Diogenes wrote:

With respect we don't know how benefical the terms of the deal were to the Film Board. Was it a once off fee? An annual fee? A per film fee? Does the Film Board share the rental profits?

So you're criticising a deal that you don't know the details of; and you're using the fact that you don't know anything about this deal to cast in a negative and cynical light.

Whatever you're havin' yourself.

We don't know, and they aren't saying. But hey it's not like a state body has ever shafted the taxpayers for risible short term benefits for themselves...

So if you don't trust the State I suppose you should trust... independent private bodies? .

I'll post a longer reply later.

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

But hey I'm sure your position as a minimum wage registery jocky gives you access to corporate policy and finances

and i'm sure being an outsider with a friend who ran a failed store gives you the access i clearly don't get...

Diogenes wrote:

Did you promote said films, suggest them to customers, talk to them about them? Or did you shove them into the hap hazard shoved into a couple of shelves in the usual back of the shop position?

i discuss films i've seen with willing customers, yes. i can't speak for other stores, but my one has a nice big place on the end of the new release wall for all the foreign/indie stuff.

Diogenes wrote:

Do you know anything about sales displays and prominence and customer flow?

of course not, i'm just a minimum wage registry jockey.

Diogenes wrote:

Furthermore you really just cannot comphrend how your own organisation operates, and how it uncuts the smaller operator.

i understand economies of scale perfectly. but you've yet to explain to me why xtra-vision's ability to use economies of scale drives smaller stores out of business. xtra-vision will order massive amounts of mission impossible3 (i've switched from da vinci code... we've a new blockbuster to promote now, because i'm part of the evil corporate cycle out to blaspheme your tastes and take your money en masse) but not the films that laser and indie stores will be more interested in. for example, my store has 1 copy of howls moving castle, but laser has several.

Diogenes wrote:

They have lower overheads cause they pay minimum wage to a bunch of kids, they get cheaper films because they can buy in bulk, they stock the same crap in every store.

are you telling me a laser employee gets €25000 a year? and different stores do have different films in stock. each store is split by class (A+, A, B, C), which is divided up by size. A+ stores get more films generally, both in quantity and in terms of what/how many titles they get. everyone gets M:I3, but only some will get infernal affairs.

Diogenes wrote:

Wow Mc Donalds orbuger king, gosh the smorgisborg of endless flavours and choice is just bloody endless..

there's also supermacs, eddie rockets and a slew of other chains to whet your apetite. they're smaller, but they're there. just like movie magic and the endless list of indie stores that exist around the country.

Diogenes wrote:

Not necessarily xtravision can as its position as market leader dictate terms, and threaten not to join in the advertising budget. You are once again making your corporate overlords (yes I am joking) the jolly green giant of business decisions wandering in and making the best deal for everyone.

i'm not saying xtra-vision is a beacon of light for the irish industry, but it's not a cloud of doom that suppresses the potential success of irish film. yeah, they'll get the best deal they can, but obviously that deal is far better for the studios and film board then a general release.

Diogenes wrote:

I'd ask you, what exactly has the Xtravision deal done thats visibly benefited the industry?

put it into the mainstream with advertising, and helping to fund put these films in however many stores there are nationwide, where otherwise the studios and film board involved wouldn't have the money to distribute this stuff.

Diogenes

Ibid wrote:

So you're criticising a deal that you don't know the details of; and you're using the fact that you don't know anything about this deal to cast in a negative and cynical light.

I can extrapolate. Since the Xtravision deal, the film board has launched the "micro budget" intiative. This is a ultra low budget intiative. The majority of Irish films have been produced under this intiative. Ultra low budgets, I mean absurdly low, with crew working for reduced pay, ridiculous long hours, on some appalling underdone films, with scripts that need a desperate amount of work...

I'm not blaming Xtravision for this situation, however it's obvious that the filmboard hasn't recieved a generous influx of cash from the Xtravision deal, and is reduced to funding these films in a desperate attempt to continue the indigenious industry.

Whatever you're havin' yourself.

You'll notice my original point was about the unfairness to Irish taxpayers, who fund the film industry the profits of which are then taken by a foreign owned company who's operating model is to actively subvert small independent Irish owned operations.

So if you don't trust the State I suppose you should trust... independent private bodies? .

I trust the marketplace more than the Film Board, they tend to be muppets, but I know if they had a "Full Monty" on their hand they'd rather renegotiate the terms, than be tied to an exclusive deal with one distributor.

Diogenes

projectmayhem wrote:

and i'm sure being an outsider with a friend who ran a failed store gives you the access i clearly don't get...

There was an independent video store owners association, my friend did speak with them, and many did state that Xtravision was driving them out of business, with aggressive pricing policy

i discuss films i've seen with willing customers, yes. i can't speak for other stores, but my one has a nice big place on the end of the new release wall for all the foreign/indie stuff.

I'm assuming you're in a city center/D2/D4 store?

of course not, i'm just a minimum wage registry jockey.

i understand economies of scale perfectly. but you've yet to explain to me why xtra-vision's ability to use economies of scale drives smaller stores out of business. xtra-vision will order massive amounts of mission impossible3 (i've switched from da vinci code... we've a new blockbuster to promote now, because i'm part of the evil corporate cycle out to blaspheme your tastes and take your money en masse) but not the films that laser and indie stores will be more interested in. for example, my store has 1 copy of howls moving castle, but laser has several.

And the reason you can have massive amount of Mi3 is because Xtravision bulk orders Mi3

are you telling me a laser employee gets €25000 a year? and different stores do have different films in stock. each store is split by class (A+, A, B, C), which is divided up by size. A+ stores get more films generally, both in quantity and in terms of what/how many titles they get. everyone gets M:I3, but only some will get infernal affairs.

No but the smaller independent stores are usually managed most of the time by the owner, who's dependent on the profits for his wage, while Xtravision has an army of minimum wage registery jockeys working part time.


there's also supermacs, eddie rockets and a slew of other chains to whet your apetite. they're smaller, but they're there. just like movie magic and the endless list of indie stores that exist around the country.

i'm not saying xtra-vision is a beacon of light for the irish industry, but it's not a cloud of doom that suppresses the potential success of irish film. yeah, they'll get the best deal they can, but obviously that deal is far better for the studios and film board then a general release.

For starts you keep saying "studios" Do you know how many "studios" are in Ireland?

0.

And before you say "Ardmore", Ardmore doesn't make films it's a facility for production companies to make films.

And those production companies, have to take the film board cash to get films made. You've yet to prove that "obviously" this deal is good for the industry, where as I can give an example of the deteriorating state of the irish film industry as an example as to how I think this deal is part of something that is.

put it into the mainstream with advertising, and helping to fund put these films in however many stores there are nationwide, where otherwise the studios and film board involved wouldn't have the money to distribute this stuff.

The film board managed just fine distributing films before this deal. Irish Films are extremely popular titles in the domestic market.

projectmayhem

Diogenes wrote:

There was an independent video store owners association, my friend did speak with them, and many did state that Xtravision was driving them out of business, with aggressive pricing policy

aggressive pricing policy? there is a standard price across every single store. the only difference is some stores do offers on renting new releases in multiples (2 for €8 and the like). if 5.25 is too low, then what do you think of chartbusters at 4.80 (or thereabouts)..?

Diogenes wrote:

I'm assuming you're in a city center/D2/D4 store?

nowhere near d4 or city center.

Diogenes wrote:

For starts you keep saying "studios" Do you know how many "studios" are in Ireland?

0.

i'm just using the word "studios" to represent the various bodies involved in making a movie here. i know it's technically wrong, but it's easier to just say it that way.

Diogenes wrote:

The film board managed just fine distributing films before this deal. Irish Films are extremely popular titles in the domestic market.

i'd like to see a comparison of what kind of money films made before xtra-vision advertised them to bits. would the wind that shakes the barley be given such prominence in HMV etc. now if it weren't for the thousands of rentals it got over the last month?

Diogenes

projectmayhem wrote:

aggressive pricing policy? there is a standard price across every single store. the only difference is some stores do offers on renting new releases in multiples (2 for €8 and the like). if 5.25 is too low, then what do you think of chartbusters at 4.80 (or thereabouts)..?

No sorry incorrect there were and possibly still are examples of Xtravision having lower prices in order to drive out competition, not to mention their reduced price on bulk orders, and reduced cost using typical register jockeys.

nowhere near d4 or city center.

So you point clients to the alternative miles out of the way for your customers. Wow, theres choice in action...

i'm just using the word "studios" to represent the various bodies involved in making a movie here. i know it's technically wrong, but it's easier to just say it that way.

Well because the people on this thread seem to be incapable of understanding nuance and complexity. You seem to be the only one dumbing things down.

i'd like to see a comparison of what kind of money films made before xtra-vision advertised them to bits. would the wind that shakes the barley be given such prominence in HMV etc. now if it weren't for the thousands of rentals it got over the last month?

LOL and this is a very apt quote;

Irving Thalberg told Louis B. Mayer, when he told Mayer to turn down gone with the wind wrote:

"Louis, No Civil War movie ever made a nickel"

The Irony is the most profitable movie before Gone with the Wind, was "Birth of the Nation".

The Double Irony is the most profitable and successful Irish based movie before "wind the shakes the barley" was Michael Collins, which did just fine* without the whole Xtravision exclusive advertising...

Are you really telling me that the success of one of the few Irish films ever to touch on the most dramatic and painful aspect of our young nations history, a period which we are aching to see in cinemas, a film staring the most popular Irish actor of his generation, directed by one of the world's most aclaimed directors, a film which finally and deservedly won this director one of the most prestigious awards in international cinema, a film whose themes and issues echo current world politics and the behaviour of insurgency in Iraq, a film that everyone in this country, aside from Kevin Myers, adored.

Are you really telling me that the success of this films DVDs release is based on Xtravision's ad campaign...Really?


*By Fine I mean the most successful film ever released in ireland in terms of gross and vhs sales