Mechanical Engineering?

Aero787

I'm interested in doing Mechanical Engineering in either UCD or CIT, or Aeronautical Engineering in UL. What are your opinions on the three colleges/courses, and where is the best place to study Mech Eng? If you think there is a better Mech Eng course than those, please share!

Cheers

DJDC

UCD and UL probally have the best mechanical engineering departments in the country with high points requirements,tough courses and excellent job prospects.Dont know anything about the CIT course but the fact it isnt a university might turn off some employers.Especially if you decide you want to go into finance/banking etc.

Aero787

Cheers! I'm was leaning more towards UCD and UL anyway. I wasn't sure how good UL is, but your post has cleared that up. The Aero course appeals more to me than Mech at UL - there seems to be a few psychobabble modules for Mech. I think CITs strength is probably more Civil and Structural.

UCD vs. UL
Mech vs. Aero

gubbie

Not only is there differences in the courses but there is also huge difference in how the colleges work. I'm not too sure about UL so I won't talk about it but in UCD we now have a new system-modurlaisation and -basicly we do 10 classes in whichever course you pick, then you pick 2 other classes (such as a language or a business subjects or what not. The other thing is that we have exams at Christmas and continuous assessment-pretty good cos its what we're used to and believe me studying for 11 engineering exams is NOT FUN

There has been huge screw ups with it this year-I mean say just because you want to do French, doesn't mean you'll get it-its random selection

Aero787

The UCD Engineering department was ranked 13th in Europe in a Der Spiegel student survey based on library services, laboratories, competency and availability of teaching staff, with an emphasis on quality of teaching rather than research.

pauln

Ok, I've studied a Cert in Mech Eng in an IT first and am now studying for my Mech Eng degree in UL. Let me just say that as far as IT vs. Uni is concerned both have strength/weaknesses that the other doesn't have but in the end the result is the same. The 2006 Siemens Innovative Engineer of the year studied Mech/Manu Engineering in CIT (link) and from what I here CIT is a good college to study engineering at. Does that mean CIT is the best engineering college to study at? Probably not but it's as good as any.

Ok next item, UCD vs. UL. Umm, that's a tough one. I've only experience of one of them and what I've heard of the other to go on.
UCD would have the better reputation when it comes to engineering but UL is excellent also and I've never heard of graduates saying that a UL degree hindered them in anyway (I've had some say it helped them though).
UCD operate a different exam structure to UL they seem to have ALOT of exams in one go where as UL you have 6-7 at Christmas, 6-7 new ones at the Summer and % continuous assessment depending on the module.
As of 2007-2008 semesters, Christmas exams will be before the holidays in UL (A change for the better if you ask me).
If you just want to study Mech eng then from looking at the modules in each UCD and UL cover the same stuff mainly, it has to be that way as they are both IEI accredited BEng's and the standards have to match up.

Aero787 wrote:

Mech at UL - there seems to be a few psychobabble modules for Mech

Which in particular? Maybe I can explain them a bit better.

Mech vs. Aero. Well I'll be really biased here and have to say Mech. Aero is Mechanical engineering with questions geared towards airplanes and such. Big Aero companys have no problem hiring Mech's.
The guys who do Aero are generally mad into their aircraft (Airosexuals comes to mind), most would have some flying experience and all they want to do is work with aircraft.

If all you can think about doing is working with aircraft then Aero is the way to go but if it's only one of your interests then I'd say do Mech, you'll have a broader education and still have no problems working in Aerospace in the future if you wanted too, most Aeronautical Engineers trained as Mech's anyway as there aren't too many Aero courses around.

Hope some of that helps.

Claasman

Aero787 wrote:

Cheers! I'm was leaning more towards UCD and UL anyway. I wasn't sure how good UL is, but your post has cleared that up. The Aero course appeals more to me than Mech at UL - there seems to be a few psychobabble modules for Mech. I think CITs strength is probably more Civil and Structural.

UCD vs. UL
Mech vs. Aero

spoken to ya earlier RE Mech V Aero.

remember this...

Mechs build weapons, Aeros build targets






The 2 degrees are fairly interchanganble in the industry,
i was going to do it in CIT but the IT thing kinda put me off...
CIT is really if you want to get into the ''nuts and bolts'' of it, loads of lab time, i think there lecture-to-lab ratio is 60:40 (if i remember correctlty from reading the prospectus when i was looking) , wheras UL is more 80:20, meaning more theory and not as much practice.

tywy

I was considering doing Biomedical Engineering when I was filling out my CAO. It was between that and Electronic/Electrical Engineering. I was recommended to choose Elec Eng as it is more general and I wouldn't know how I felt in 4 years.

I think you should choose Mech because it's more general. You can do more with Mech, plus you can do a Post Grad in Aeronautical.

You'll have more options at the end of your 4 years if you choose Mech imo.

I'm angry at UCD at the moment because they've screwed us over. I'm in 3rd Year and we were promised going into 1st year we wouldn't be modularised and now we are. It just isn't working. It seems to work for the students who have been modularised from the beginning though. I think it's because their courses didn't have to be changed midway through to fit into x amount of lectures and x amount of labs...

$Leon$

pauln wrote:

UCD operate a different exam structure to UL they seem to have ALOT of exams in one go where as UL you have 6-7 at Christmas, 6-7 new ones at the Summer and % continuous assessment depending on the module.

Not true any more UCD engineering have exams before christmas. Roughly 50:50 split. Up until last year all were in May

pauln wrote:

I it has to be that way as they are both IEI accredited BEng's and the standards have to match up.

UCD like all other members of the NUI award BE's

Aero787

Thanks for all the replies. I'm still stumped on where to go. UCD, UL, and CIT all have a very good reputation.

UCD seems to be the most prestigious and Formula Student would be great, but CIT's record in competitions is impressive. CIT mechs have gone to Boeing and General Electric (both aerospace companies) for example, and that's the area that interests me.

Would CIT be more teaching orientated than UCD/UL? CIT would mean staying at home, I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

As for UL, the Aero Eng course would allow me to work in aerospace and motor(sport) companies (as would mech), but is probably general enough to be interchangeable with Mech. On a F1 team website, they require you to have "a degree in Aeronautical Engineering (or equivalent)" for a position as an Aerodynamicist. UL links with industry would be good because of co-op.

Learning languages: At UCD there's the possibility of doing a language module, or using the ALC in my spare time. It's part of the course in UL. I don't know about CIT, but I doubt it.

What's Mech Eng like in NUI Galway?

CONFUSED

Dettol2

Are there good job prospectus' for mech engineers ?

tywy

Aero787 wrote:

Thanks for all the replies. I'm still stumped on where to go. UCD, UL, and CIT all have a very good reputation.

UCD seems to be the most prestigious and Formula Student would be great, but CIT's record in competitions is impressive. CIT mechs have gone to Boeing and General Electric (both aerospace companies) for example, and that's the area that interests me.

Would CIT be more teaching orientated than UCD/UL? CIT would mean staying at home, I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

As for UL, the Aero Eng course would allow me to work in aerospace and motor(sport) companies (as would mech), but is probably general enough to be interchangeable with Mech. On a F1 team website, they require you to have "a degree in Aeronautical Engineering (or equivalent)" for a position as an Aerodynamicist. UL links with industry would be good because of co-op.

Learning languages: At UCD there's the possibility of doing a language module, or using the ALC in my spare time. It's part of the course in UL. I don't know about CIT, but I doubt it.

What's Mech Eng like in NUI Galway?

CONFUSED

I would choose Mech in UCD if I were you. Just to keep your options open. The more general the degree the better.

I'm from Dublin and therefore it would have been stupid for me to leave home to do Engineering but if I had the choice again I'd go away to college.

Also, the ALC is now only really for Post Graduate students. Undergrads are no longer allowed sign up for extra language classes for free. If you have chosen all your modules you can't do a language aswell unless you want to pay for the module.

You can of course choose a language as an elective if it will fit into your busy engineering timetable.

Aero787

So, you'd have to pay for the classes if you didn't take it as an elective? Ok. Do you have to pay to use language labs and resources independantly (not taking a language class or elective)?

Nukem

It depends on what you are looking for!

I did my Dip in CIT and Degree in UL both colleges are excellent in their own rights.

CIT is 9-5 nearly everyday and they harp on at you like school so if you need constant harrasment to study might be a better choice. CIT is a more practical college in my opinion. Better facilities for maching and hands on with more of a pratical look at things and how they work and how you can apply it. CIT do try and look after their students and most lecturers that i have met since i left have been very supportive in terms of how are you getting on,if i needed a reference there was no worries. Also they pass out job Opportunities when they see them.

UL is more theory based with little or no pratical experience. Its very laid back with way less hours and no one chases you for reports; if you dont submit them "Tough" you will fail and have to reperat,very little grey area, black or white. For Mech there is two tiers in 3rd and 4th year that will define what you want to do. There is solids teir which more to do with materials,ProEng ....etc...... Where the fluids strain deals with fluid dynamics and thermodynamics.

In both of the tiers there is more room for manouver between certain subjects - go to www.mae.ul.ie for more info for UL.

The Aero and Mech are run hand-in-hand in Ul and there are some overlapping subjects. If you want to get into Aerospace it is not confined to just Aero as the mechs have a choice to do Computational Fluid Dynamics and Boundary Layer Theory which the Aeros have to do as well. Think the major difference is Mechs dont do Avionics,Flight Mechanics ...etc..... they do Mechanics of Solids or Thermodynamics.Once again go to the course struture on the above link.

One thing i can say for UL is the coop is probably the swaying factor. They send you out with a job placement in 3rd yr for 9months to a major company and thats where you get some real experience.

Nukem

gubbie

tywy wrote:

I would choose Mech in UCD if I were you. Just to keep your options open. The more general the degree the better.

I'm from Dublin and therefore it would have been stupid for me to leave home to do Engineering but if I had the choice again I'd go away to college.

Also, the ALC is now only really for Post Graduate students. Undergrads are no longer allowed sign up for extra language classes for free. If you have chosen all your modules you can't do a language aswell unless you want to pay for the module.

You can of course choose a language as an elective if it will fit into your busy engineering timetable.

I went away for college-best choice ever. And I don't know anyone who'd disagree especially when you're gonna be doing engineering too

Aero787

Thanks for all the advice guys! I think it'd be better for me to go away to college so here's my (current) order of preference:

1: UCD Mech
2: UL Aero
3: UL Mech
4: CIT Mech
5: NUIG Mech

I'll probably change my mind a few times, but sure there's plenty of time for me to decide.

gubbie

Aero787 wrote:

Thanks for all the advice guys! I think it'd be better for me to go away to college so here's my (current) order of preference:

1: UCD Mech
2: UL Aero
3: UL Mech
4: CIT Mech
5: NUIG Mech

I'll probably change my mind a few times, but sure there's plenty of time for me to decide.

Good on ya for making such a big effort into finding out the different courses

LikeOhMyGawd!

Would you consider studying outside Ireland? Queens in Belfast have excellent Aero and Mech departments. Lougbborough in England are the same and have excellent contacts with motorsports teams and firms. Bristol is good for Aero as well. Having said all that, in my experience Aero might limit your future opportunities however if you have the talent and have your mind set on working in that field then go for it. But if you want to earn lots of money and have a mega car and house don't bother with engineering and do medicine instead!

Aero787

LOMG!,

I had a look at the universities outside Ireland but I don't see the point in studying abroad because Irish colleges have excellent reputations in engineering. As well as that, I'd have to pay €4500 per year (not including food + accom.) to study in England. I know it's still free in Scotland but it's more likely that they'd bring in fees there than in Ireland.

With regards to your comment about money, you can make big money in almost every career path. For me it's not about money anyway. I would go insane if I studied medicine, and I really don't fancy joining a circus on graduation.

Aero787

Oh yeah, anyone know anything about Mech at NUIG?

The Kings Head

Mech at NUIG has its good and bad points (as do all other courses i suppose)....i think the course is well structured and the 3rd year work placement program is a massive plus. Lecturers are a mixed bunch, some good some terrible.

Id strongly recommend you go somewhere with som kind of work placement though. NUIG's placement is 5months (i think UL do a 9month program). Its class experience nd you can get set up for FYP, career etc

However...NUIG's mech engineering facilities are fairly shoddy at the mo. But they are building a new place, due to open in 2009 so you could get a year or two out of that if youre lucky!

!!One more (v. important) thing - galway is THE BEST CITY IN IRELAND for students :cool:

The king speaks the truth.They don't call it NUI gee for nothing.

polaris sc

Well lad

I come from a back round of doing my diploma in CIT and the degree in UL in mechanical engineering, there are some major difference in the two colleges some good and bad, the CIT degree is better than the UL degree, this is mainly because of the practical amount of work you do in CIT and the final year projects are very focused in industry related problems, this would be one of the main reason why CIT so well in competitions, one of the reasons I didn’t want to stay in CIT was because there was a lot of manufacturing engineering in the course, which I had no interest in where in UL its all mechanical engineering and they have a separate course for manufacturing engineering in UL. Also you where saying you want to do AERO eng, in UL you have this option until the start of third year of college were you have a wide range of choices.
Just getting back to the final year projects in UL there are more related to what your supervisor is interested in and a plus point is that there is a wide range of choice in the final projects. Also there is great amount of opportunities for postgraduate research in UL, and the college is very well funded is this area, you would not have this in a CIT, mainly because there cannot get the same amount of research grants as a university. Because of this a lot of companies have a great amount of respect for the university degree. Also UL in going to be a medical college soon which is another feather is its cap.

Another major difference is the size of the class, in UL your going to be in class of about 100-200 students depending on what module’s you will be doing, this will change to an extent when you go into your third and final year in that your class will get smaller, because of this reason you are going to make an effort to know the lecturers, and in my final year I found them very accommodating and eager to help me, while in CIT your class size in going to be 30-40 people, and you will get you’re a lecturer from the start of the course, and there will hound you to do everything from attending class to doing lab reports,but on the plus side and can you develop a great relationship with your class-mates and lecturers, during the course of your stay there.

Aero787

It's between UCD and CIT now. In UL, I'd probably do Aero (purely because I'd have the option) but I think a general mech degree would be better. I've been talking to a few people "in the know" and CIT has got a fantastic reputation. I'll be visiting UCD and CIT soon enough so hopefully I'll know my first preference after that.

1. UCD/CIT
2. UL
3. NUIG

ScabbyLeg

You seem to be pretty well informed about the different colleges and I'd say any of your choices will get you a good degree. As I'm a 4th year in Aero, I can tell you that the best thing I've gotten from the course here has been our Coop term. The careers department are really very good and you won't have difficulty getting a place with a big name here or abroad... and at this stage of my degree, I'm really grateful for my placement- it would be a much more daunting task coming to the end of my college life if I was looking for a job not really knowing what was out there. Also, from a studying point of view, it sure if nice to take a break from it all and live relatively comfortably for the best part of a year! It's really something worth taking into consideration when you're picking a course.

The CIT course is a bit more manufacturing engineering based (I'm told!), whereas it's a separate thing here in UL. That's good from a CIT point of view, as most of the 'mech eng' jobs out there in Ireland are in manufacturing/ production facilities, be it medical devices, food, electronics...

5uspect

Nukem wrote:

UL is more theory based with little or no pratical experience. Its very laid back with way less hours and no one chases you for reports; if you dont submit them "Tough" you will fail and have to reperat,very little grey area, black or white. For Mech there is two tiers in 3rd and 4th year that will define what you want to do. There is solids teir which more to do with materials,ProEng ....etc...... Where the fluids strain deals with fluid dynamics and thermodynamics.

They are trying to improve the hands on stuff tho. I'd pick the course by the quality of the final year project you could do. This is really the place you get to shine as an undergrad.

At the end of the day Engineering in UL or UCD is basically the same topics; statics, dynamics, solids, thermo, CAD and fluids. The Aero modules are much the same as the mech but the questions are designed for aircraft rather than powerplants or pumps with the exception of the aircraft modules in third and fourth year.

Nukem wrote:

One thing i can say for UL is the coop is probably the swaying factor. They send you out with a job placement in 3rd yr for 9months to a major company and thats where you get some real experience.
Nukem

Good point, co-op and your FYP are really the places where you aren't just learning maths but actually doing some real engineering!

Aero787

I've been to a few open days now. I was very impressed with UCD - there was a good atmosphere and it's a nice campus. The reputation it has, not only for engineering is very impressive. The mech course is great, although there is probably more emphasis placed on working in industry in UL and CIT. They have excellent facilities and are the largest mech department in the country. The general facilities i.e. for sport/music are quailty. I might just get over having to live in Ireland's second city.

I like the Aero course in UL, there's a great atmosphere, better than all the other colleges on the day. But, I think it'd be better for me to do a general mech degree. The fact that there is no guarantee you'll get a work placement in the aviation industry put a shade of doubt in my mind too. I like the way the course is focussed on preparing grads for industry though. That means taking half a year out of college which I'm not too sure about either. There is a music scene there (best concert hall in the country) and the sports facilities are unbelievable! Honestly like the first person I saw at the open day was Jerry Flannery!

I went to TCD - it's a nice campus, on par with UCD and UL. There was a good atmosphere. The others seem to have better courses in my opinion i.e. being better structured, or more emphasis on industry, or the opportunities for your final year project. There are better facilities and/or better reputations elsewhere for engineering. While there aren't any disadvantages (TCD is a good college), I don't see any significant advantages in going to TCD.

CIT is impressive too, they have a quality course and they'll be modularising the course next year. I'm impressed with their reputation for engineering, they have a good course, and there is obviously a strong emphasis on teaching. I think having a bit more practical work is an advantage. Their success in international engineering competitions is great too. I don't think the campus is quite as nice as the other three, but I'm not too concerned about the architectural beauty of college buildings! The things putting me off going to CIT are that I'll have to stay at home for college, and I'm not too sure what impact modularisation will have. I'll have the opportunity to ask about modularisation soon anyway.

I've made a critical remark about all 4 of the colleges, so don't say I'm anti-wherever.

Something that was brought to my attention was that final year projects in CIT engineering are done in more depth than in universities. What are your thoughts on this?

l_whitty

hey i'd def advise aero instead of mech, its more specailised and ive just spent three yrs studying mech, wishing id done aero instead, its easier get jobs and u get savage work experience in ul my mate worked for airbus in france.

pauln

Aero787 wrote:

Something that was brought to my attention was that final year projects in CIT engineering are done in more depth than in universities. What are your thoughts on this?

From what I've seen of the final year Mech eng projects in UL over the past few years they haven't really appealed to me much, not really looking forward to what I'll get landed with. The way it works in Mech eng is they give you a big list of titles and you pick a few then a lottery assigns which of your choices you get to do. You could propose your own project but you'd have to get someone willing to supervise it.
The topics are for the most part based on masters/PhD/research that is going on in the department or something a lecturer has an interest in so they make up a title on the spot to pad out the list with enough options to go around.
Most look pretty boring if you ask me, very much paper excersises, with only the odd one similar to what you'd get in an IT and result in you actually making something.
But then thats the basic difference between the IT's and universitys. In general the IT's teach you for industry and the universitys teach you for research and the sooner you get out of either into the real world the sooner you learn that none of it applies anyway.

5uspect

pauln wrote:

From what I've seen of the final year Mech eng projects in UL over the past few years they haven't really appealed to me much, not really looking forward to what I'll get landed with. The way it works in Mech eng is they give you a big list of titles and you pick a few then a lottery assigns which of your choices you get to do. You could propose your own project but you'd have to get someone willing to supervise it.
The topics are for the most part based on masters/PhD/research that is going on in the department or something a lecturer has an interest in so they make up a title on the spot to pad out the list with enough options to go around.
Most look pretty boring if you ask me, very much paper excersises, with only the odd one similar to what you'd get in an IT and result in you actually making something.
But then thats the basic difference between the IT's and universitys. In general the IT's teach you for industry and the universitys teach you for research and the sooner you get out of either into the real world the sooner you learn that none of it applies anyway.

The whole point of an FYP is for you to show that you understand some fundamental engineering/science concept properly. Any idiot can cobble together something we're not here to teach you how to use a lathe, and in industry as an engineer you will probably not be making things but sitting in front of a computer solving problems by understanding things. Granted most of the FYPs are academic but there are some industry projects requiring numerical modeling of some problem, but the whole point is for you to demonstrate that you can understand and can clearly and elegantly explain in a technically written report something about the way the world works.

ditpaintball

I cant believe that DIT hasnt been mentioned yet. It has one of the best reps for mech engineers in the country. Every summer, intel and all the big boys swarm around hiring bolton st. grads.

I have done my Cert and Ordinary Degree and currently doing my Honours Degree in DIT Bolton st. Great course, good lectures.

Loads of practical work if you go the cert route, welding, sheet metal work, drawing etc.

book smarts

Can someone tell me what a mechanical engineer does day to day? Just an honest, simplified breakdown of the reality of the job. And I'm talking about the most common areas that graduates go into. No exaggerating or blowing of trumpets please.

What are the typical designs?
How much creativity involved, how much is reinventing the wheel?
What to read, books, online, to give a better idea?

It's like, I asked an electronic engineer once what exactly he did, and he wouldn't give me a straight answer. Kept saying crap like- "It's complicated, or you wouldn't understand" when the bones of what he's doing probably isn't that complicated at all when broken down into analogies. Patronising and dumbing down for intellectual snobbery annoys the crap out of me. Just because you have some knowledge or understanding that I don't have does not mean you are better than me!

Anyway, sorry about that, a straight answer would be appreciated. Thanks

ditpaintball

book smarts wrote:

Can someone tell me what a mechanical engineer does day to day? Just an honest, simplified breakdown of the reality of the job. And I'm talking about the most common areas that graduates go into. No exaggerating or blowing of trumpets please.
Anyway, sorry about that, a straight answer would be appreciated. Thanks

Well is is not that simply. Its a bit like trying to answer, how can you cook potatoes- bake, boil, roast, fry, waffels.......

For a start, to see what a mechanical engineer is ABLE to do, take a look at out course and what we study. From then you can get an idea of the jobs that we can do. So a typical 3rd year mechanical engineer in DIT Studies:

Fluid mechanics - everything to do with bodies in a fluid (liquid or a gas) such as wings on on a plane, winds on a wind turbine, hydrofoils on them ships, drag forces on cars etc. You also study pressure distribution with in fluids, it the pressure behind a dam, pressure in pipes, weirs in rivers..

Fluids in one of our core subjects.

Mechanics of Materials - everything to to with stress and strains in materials like metal shafts, beams and struts. How springs work and why they work, suspension in a car, loading pulleys on a shaft, bearings.

There is a lot more to this and it is a core subject.


Maths - Just maths. I hate it but has to be done.

Electronics and Electical Engineering - How 3-phase power systems work and how to size the right motor, cables, generators etc for a system. Also how amplifers work and how to use them in feedback on a system. Also, one of my favs, the PLC - Program Logic Controller - the fellas who you program and then they are used in industry to control machines in a process i.e. bottling plants, any robotics etc.

Materials Processs - Less importance of subject, All out how steel is made, heat treatments. All about carbon fiber and fiberglass, how they work and are made. Surface engineering - how to protect your surface of the component you are designing from rust and wear.


Once you know that you are able to do, then you can know what you would be able to to for work. Bearing in mind i have not described previous years subjects such as CAD and all the labwork.


How this helps you out a little bit.

dave2pvd

book smarts wrote:

Can someone tell me what a mechanical engineer does day to day? Just an honest, simplified breakdown of the reality of the job.

I can't quite tell you what you want to hear. It's all over the map; extremely diverse. Let me give you some examples:

I worked with a mech eng for most of the day today. His task was to come up with a concept to automatically crimp a large fitting to each end of a high voltage insulator. We already had the specs for the hydraulic crimper. The task was to automatically handle the part to be crimped. By the end of the day a Solidworks model of the concept was modelled, which will become a proposal to submit to the client.

The client's rep (an ME) in the meantime is busily laying out his area of the plant floor (in AutoCAD) to ensure a smooth and efficient process flow. He is also fielding questions from me (project manager for the crimper) about specifics that don't seem to be addressed in the Statement of Work document.

At least 3 vendors received phone calls from us regarding components we intended to use for the project. They are usually known as application engineers. About 50% of these guys tend to be MEs.

Now I am just describing a very narrow slice of the ME world. Talk to someone else and all they will talk about is fluid dynamics, FMEA, zero backlash, EU Norms, process validation, monthly reviews....sometimes it doesn't seem like engineering at all.

Oh, forgot to mention: I'm a DIT EE grad. I work in a company that builds custom automation machinery. I use probably 10% of my course material on a daily basis - maybe less. The subject that has been by far the most valuable for my career is business studies. There are lots of engineers out there but so many are totally bound by the fact that they can do nothing beyond being an engineer.

Pure Cork

Could mechanical engineers get jobs in civil engineering consultancies?

5uspect

I would say so, yes. I've heard of mechanical engineers getting jobs with investment banks simply on the back of their problem solving "knack".