Equalisation of A-level and Leaving Cert points. wtf?

ApeXaviour

Taken from the front of the admissions webpage:
http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/downloads/A-level%20&%20LC%20Equalisation%20Final.pdf

Is it just me or does this pdf give an exceptionately convoluted explanation of the process. It seems even to contradict itself in places. I know students from across the water already have a bit of trouble getting used to the CAO, and I really don't blame them if this is the kind of reasoning we provide.

On page 6 of the pdf it gives what I had thought was the system by which points are calculated. An A in A-level bringing you 150 points such that 4 A-levels can bring you a max of 600. An A in AS-level bringing 60 points hence a max of 510 points for students sitting 3 A-level courses and one AS-level (which seems the more usual option).

However the main gist of the pdf points towards ranges of points. Take example I pointed out earlier of someone achievign AAAa (the student getting the max in 3 A-levels and 1 AS-level) is given a points range of 450-460. Where do these numbers come from? I had believed it would be 510.


And then there's this:

Example
· A course has 100 available places with a minimum entry level of 580 CAO
points.
· There are 700 eligible Leaving Certificate applications (i.e. students with 510 *600
points)and there are 300 eligible A *level applications (i.e. students with 4 A
grades at A2 level).
· Applying proportionality,70% of places (70 places)are allocated to Leaving
Certificate students and 30% of places (30 places)are allocated to A *level
students.
· The 70 places for Leaving Certificate students are allocated to the 70 Leaving
Certificate students who rank highest among the eligible Leaving Certificate
students, based on the Leaving Certificate points system, shown in table 2. In the
event of a tie between students with equal points, ranking is based on random
selection.
· The 30 places for A *level students are allocated to the 30 A *level students who
rank highest among the eligible A *level students, based on the CAO points system
for A *level applications, shown in table 3. In this example all of the eligible A *
level applications have 600 points, thus,ranking is based on random selection.

Which is so badly explained it borders on complete inaccuracy.

Edwardius

You have too much free time. Go get drunk, do it, doooooooo it.

Pet

The Lame Wannabe-Devil-on-Dec's-Shoulder wrote:

You have too much free time. Go get drunk, do it, doooooooo it.

Pssh, don't listen to him. Go enjoy the culture and such of Denmark. You can get drunk in Ireland!

ApeXaviour

Okay in all seriousness, this isn't just idle curiosity, I'm actually trying to find out for somebody what their A-level points will be? Is anyone (/me looks at ibid, europerson and the rest of the statute & regulations nerds ) able to clear up a little the story with A-levels grades and CAO points?

xeduCat

An A at A level is/will be 150 points. This was fixed by basically reversing a calculation after a lengthy benchmarking exercise done by UCAS (in the UK) that a Leaving Cert subject was about two-thirds of an A-level subject.

So reversing the 2/3 (AL) = 1 (LC) formula gives 3/2 and thus 150 points max. And therefore most applicants will need four actual A Level subjects (i.e. not AS).

ApeXaviour

Okay cheers. But a student can still make an application with three A-level and one AS-level no? An AAAa grade would amount to 510 points yes?

xeduCat

In theory, yes. (An A at AS is worth 60 points). In practice, the odd system of proprtionality/ranges/etc (which is a tweaking on the general principle) doesn't value the AS level all that highly, and Trinity's noises to schools will very much be along the lines of 'our courses have high points, so you really need to be doing four subjects, proper A levels'.

Chunky Monkey

Okay apologies for opening up an old thread but I just wanted to offer my opinion on this. It is utterly unfair. Places shouldn't be allocated separately for leaving cert students and A-level students. In the UK both get a fair and equal chance, why don't they here? The A-levels are worth so much more than our poxy LC so why on earth would it be valued so little. Even places like Oxford and Cambridge (which are well above the league of Trinity) don't expect students to have four A grades at A2 for medicine. Yes they require six A grades from us but the norm we do is seven, comfortably, and they don't expect us to have more.

claire h

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

The A-levels are worth so much more than our poxy LC so why on earth would it be valued so little. Even places like Oxford and Cambridge (which are well above the league of Trinity) don't expect students to have four A grades at A2 for medicine.

The Leaving Cert is harder to do well in, if we're talking number of A's. More As are given out at A-level, it's something like 25% overall (languages and maths are up in the high 30s); the figures are nowhere near that for Leaving Cert. So whatever your opinion is of what the Leaving Cert tests or assesses in comparison to the A-levels, the fact is that fewer top grades are handed out.

Podge_irl

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

The A-levels are worth so much more than our poxy LC so why on earth would it be valued so little. Even places like Oxford and Cambridge (which are well above the league of Trinity) don't expect students to have four A grades at A2 for medicine. Yes they require six A grades from us but the norm we do is seven, comfortably, and they don't expect us to have more.

I was always under the impression that it was easier to get AAAA in A levels than it was to get 6 A1s in the LC (though I realise the A levels are at a higher standard individually). Though admittedly, I don't think I actually have any basis for thinking this.

I think it's quite unfair as well, since doing 4 A Levels isn't really standard in a lot of schools, whereas doing 6 LC subjects is is the norm. Like others have said, you don't need 4 A-Levels to get into the English unis, many of which are much better than Trinity. My sister got into Cambridge with 3 A-Levels being counted, yet according to this system, she probably wouldn't get into a lot of Trinity courses? The whole AS system is relatively new and many schools are still only encouraging students to do 3 A-Levels and one AS, which is plenty for UCAS. Some schools and FE colleges don't even *allow* students to study 4 subjects to A-Level.

Chunky Monkey

It's the workload that's a problem Podge. Their subjects go into a lot more detail, which is why they do less subjects, and it's unfair to expect them to have four at A2 level when, as Izzy said above, many colleges over there don't even let you do that. Most UK universities accept the Irish leaving cert for most courses and there aren't any who expect more than six subjects, even though the majority of us do at least seven. I got invited for interview for a course which had almost 2200 applicants for 200 places this year and I only got AAABB in my LC at a second sitting. Though it is natural to think that six LC subjects are worth more than three A-levels, I mean six is a bigger number than three.

Podge_irl

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

It's the workload that's a problem Podge. Their subjects go into a lot more detail, which is why they do less subjects, and it's unfair to expect them to have four at A2 level when, as Izzy said above, many colleges over there don't even let you do that.

I suppose, like I said it's not something I ever thought out fully. However, my line of thought was always more that a larger percentage of students will get an A in a particular A level then will get an A1 in the LC. 25% of students received an A grade last year in the A levels, while the percentages for A1s is generally between 5-10%. The need for an extra A level does muddy the water somewhat, but then it's hardly that rare for people to do extra LC subjects.

Chunky Monkey

They could have better teaching standards over there

True about the extra subjects but then it isn't required of us and for example only 11 students got eight A1s in the country this year. 176, I think, got six A1s though that is still a relatively small number.

Podge_irl

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

True about the extra subjects but then it isn't required of us and for example only 11 students got eight A1s in the country this year. 176, I think, got six A1s though that is still a relatively small number.

That's somewhat my point. I imagine a larger percentage of people in the UK got AAAA despite not having to do 4 subjects then got 600 points here. If anything the points you receive for doing the A levels are overvalued.

I'm not claiming I can think of a better system mind. They're bringing in an A* mark into the A levels soon I think. That would probably equate better with our system.

emollett

Podge_irl wrote: »

I suppose, like I said it's not something I ever thought out fully. However, my line of thought was always more that a larger percentage of students will get an A in a particular A level then will get an A1 in the LC. 25% of students received an A grade last year in the A levels, while the percentages for A1s is generally between 5-10%. The need for an extra A level does muddy the water somewhat, but then it's hardly that rare for people to do extra LC subjects.

The higher pass rate is helped by the fact that only the top students are taking A levels. I think the pass rate (5 A*-C grades) at GCSE which is needed to take A levels is at about 50%, which is a lot lower than the percentage of students taking the leaving certificate. You will get a higher percentage of high grades due to the weeding out of the weaker students.
The A* grade at A level should help sort out the top grades though.

Chunky Monkey

Good point Emollett, didn't know that. I've talked to hundreds of students over there applying for medicine (which is the course with the highest academic requirements in most colleges over there) and I think I've only come across a few who are doing four A levels. That and I haven't seen anyone predicted with four A grades. The ones with four are generally predicted AAAC or AAAD

sd123

I've been talking to people in my course who sat A-Levels and heres my thoughts on them compared to my experience of the LC.

1. You only have to be 'good' at 4 subjects to get a perfect final school examination in the UK. You have to be good at 6 subjects to acchieve the same feet in the LC. If i can just give an example, there is a guy in my course who got A's in maths, phy, chem, bio at A Level, that was enough for him to get into trinity. I had to get A's in the four above, plus applied maths and tec drawing to get into my course.

2. You have to get above 80% (as far as i know) in an A-level to get an A. If you get four x 80%s you have 4 perfect grades. One must get over 85% just to get an A in the LC and over 90% to get an A1. You have to do this SIX times to get the perfect LC.

3. University general matriculation requirements don't come into play with A-Levels, Someone must pass Maths English, Irish and another language at LC level to get into any NUI. Many english people in my course never sat any languages for their A-levels.
If you sit 7 LC subjects, including Maths, Eng, Iri and Fre (for example) you have to be really good at at least 3 of these to get 600 points. If you are doing A-levels, you can just decide to do 4 completely different subjects that you really like to get top grades, so long as there aren't any course specific requirements.

4.The A levels are highly specific, you get to study the same subject much more in-depth than the Leaving cert which if you follow one of your A-Levels into university, you will have done alot of the info at least until half-way through first year. The range of Leaving cert subjects to be covered simply doesn't give enough time to go into the same depth as A-levels.
Things that I've struggled with so far in first year have already been mastered and known inside out by the english students, They definitely have the upper hand, for the moment at least.

5. The LC gives a student the oppurtunity to study many more subjects in reasonable detail, this gives him/her a wider range of knowledge at the end of school and gives them more oppurtunities when it comes to making a decision for a college course.

6. It was my understanding that if a student acchieved 4 x A grades in A-Levels that they would be awarded a cao points ranging between 510 and 600. This means that if a student was applying for a course with points between these they would have to undergo random selection and HOPE that they get in, however, a student sitting the LC has the power in their own hands to get as high as they can and avoid random selection. Also, to get 510 with LC subjects is an average of 6 x HB1's. I would assume that 4 A grades are harder to get.

Chunky Monkey

Just on point two sd, I was talking someone about this the other day. Apparently that 80% isn't gained the same way ours is. I can't remember exactly what he said, it was quite complicated, I think how well they do in their modules is counted as well as the final exams.

dan719

AFAIK a's are awarded to the top x percent to sit the exam at a levels.

Podge_irl

dan719 wrote: »

AFAIK a's are awarded to the top x percent to sit the exam at a levels.

I think that's how the originally did it, but the percentage receiving A grades is going up every year.

Chunky Monkey

Here's what someone told me about the A-levels (they're currently studying them). It's a wee complicated, I don't really understand it myself:

It can vary completely by exam board but typically you have 2 or 3 modules per year (the 1st year making the As and 2nd the A2, together the A-level proper)...

They're usually taken either all in june or some in january some in june...

UMS is a system of marking which means that whatever the raw marks add up to, all subjects are out of 300 (although law was out of 200...so im not sure how it all works...) and so directly comparable. Also it contains algorithms for how hard that year was supposed to be compared to other years - so they're comparable. It also standardises say a module with one unit 100 marks and 50% and another 90 and 50%...

There's other reasons and complications but off the top of my head i cant remember them.

However to convert from the raw scale to the ums scale and keep general abcdeu or whatever it is grade boundaries etc correct the slope of the graph can't go from 0-100% of 300 in the same way as it does from 0-100% of x (x being the raw mark)...so they make it that abcde plus a little bit and minus a little bit (called grade "n") follow the right slope then the graph just cannae take it other than that.

So anything above a+n is 100% and anything below e-n is U.

But what it does mean is that to convert 0-100 (say)

sd123

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Just on point two sd, I was talking someone about this the other day. Apparently that 80% isn't gained the same way ours is. I can't remember exactly what he said, it was quite complicated, I think how well they do in their modules is counted as well as the final exams.

Fair enough, I wasn't sure bout that one, I was told by some guy that it's a weird system of marking but it usually works out at about 80% for maths at least.

Chunky Monkey

Ye 80% is an A but it's not just calculated from an end of school exam like ours is. We got talking about this because I was looking at A-level maths material and it looked the same as what we have yet I got a B1 (same percentage as their A).

sd123

Chunky Monkey wrote: »

Ye 80% is an A but it's not just calculated from an end of school exam like ours is. We got talking about this because I was looking at A-level maths material and it looked the same as what we have yet I got a B1 (same percentage as their A).

If it doesn't take one final exam alone into consideration, it must take 2 or more, presumably, and a type of weighted system is used. Regardless, if you average 80% in every exam, should you still not get an A?

BTW, where did you find the exam material? i had a look (for not too long tbh) on the net but couldn't find an equivalent to examinations.ie which gives A-Level past-papers.
Also, something quite interesting that i heard before was that there's 3 different maths A-Levels you can take, something like maths, further maths and further applied maths. Not exactly sure on their names and/or the authenticity of this.

dan719

sd123 wrote: »

Also, something quite interesting that i heard before was that there's 3 different maths A-Levels you can take, something like maths, further maths and further applied maths. Not exactly sure on their names and/or the authenticity of this.

As far as I'm aware most districts only offer maths and further maths. I have never heard of further applied maths and it would seem strange since the other two cover mechanics etc.It's true(imho) that someone with an A1 at leaving cert will more than likely get an A at A level with no or little additional work, but further maths is a different story, with a lot more emphasis on proof than in the leaving cert. For a maths course in say Cambridge Further Maths is a course requirement as well as the S.T.E.P.

emollett

You can take maths with either mechanics or statistics, then further maths is harder again and you have to take the maths a level first to take it. Generally physics students will take the mechanics options and everyone else will do statistics, although if you ask nicely you can choose to do mechanics.

If you take further maths, you will do the maths A level in one year rather than the usual two, then the further maths a level in your second year. In both cases you will generally be timetabled twice as much lesson time. Further maths is generally taken to be similar to the first year of most maths uni courses in England, except the ones that require it like Cambridge or Warwick.

Further maths comprises of modules from both mechanics and statistics so i doubt there is a further applied maths. The modules taken also differ from school to school. There is a module called "decision maths" that is maths problems applied to everyday scenarios and is seen as an easy option. I've only ever heard of private schools offering it.

From what i remember, maths with mechanics involves 4 modules of "core maths" which is calculus and pure maths and 2 of mechanics, statistics similar with 2 modules of statistics instead. In further maths you will have taken one of these two in the first year, then do 3 modules of "further pure" plus the 2 modules of the option you didn't take first time around, and a third module of mechanics as well.

That is probably of no interest to most, but i thought i would throw it in there!

sd123

emollett wrote: »

You can take maths with either mechanics or statistics, then further maths is harder again and you have to take the maths a level first to take it. Generally physics students will take the mechanics options and everyone else will do statistics, although if you ask nicely you can choose to do mechanics.

If you take further maths, you will do the maths A level in one year rather than the usual two, then the further maths a level in your second year. In both cases you will generally be timetabled twice as much lesson time. Further maths is generally taken to be similar to the first year of most maths uni courses in England, except the ones that require it like Cambridge or Warwick.

Further maths comprises of modules from both mechanics and statistics so i doubt there is a further applied maths. The modules taken also differ from school to school. There is a module called "decision maths" that is maths problems applied to everyday scenarios and is seen as an easy option. I've only ever heard of private schools offering it.

From what i remember, maths with mechanics involves 4 modules of "core maths" which is calculus and pure maths and 2 of mechanics, statistics similar with 2 modules of statistics instead. In further maths you will have taken one of these two in the first year, then do 3 modules of "further pure" plus the 2 modules of the option you didn't take first time around, and a third module of mechanics as well.

That is probably of no interest to most, but i thought i would throw it in there!

Very interesting tbh, and as I said above, I wasn't sure about the diffeerent maths papers offered at A-level, and i stand corrected! As a matter of interest, how did you find out so much info about A-Levels? Again, anyone know a website that shows past A-Level papers?

emollett

I took them (including the maths one. Information about further maths is second hand from my sister).
I'm fairly sure i got all my past papers from the school. Also there wouldn't be one site, it would be better to look up the individual exam boards such as AQA, OCR and EDEXCEL, they might have them on their page.

Infact here are a few:
OCR exam papers
AQA exam papers (the GCE is the A level)

sd123

emollett wrote: »

I took them (including the maths one. Information about further maths is second hand from my sister).
I'm fairly sure i got all my past papers from the school. Also there wouldn't be one site, it would be better to look up the individual exam boards such as AQA, OCR and EDEXCEL, they might have them on their page.

Infact here are a few:
OCR exam papers
AQA exam papers (the GCE is the A level)

Thanks for that, very interesting. The maths ones are definitely harder than ours, although I would still probably work them out, never got a chance to look at other papers yet though.

news for you

I'm from Northern Ireland, I haven't really read through this topic properly, but the last time I look at admissions into TCD, I can remember it being pretty confusing, which probably explains why I couldn't be bothered looking at it now. Anyway, from what I can remember it was pretty confusing and also a bit unfair. I think Trinity changed the system a number of years ago, I don't know why, but the basic result was to make it much more difficult for those from the North to get in. There's great universities in England that are seemingly easier to get into, so it seems like a bit of a shame.

I'd imagine it isn't a problem for most subjects, but with Law and Medicine etc, it seems like random selection is used quite a bit, which makes little sense. Why not use interviews etc, it must be crap to get all the grades, then in August, a month before Uni starts, you can't go because of what is basically a lottery. Nobody in my year went to Trinity, quite a number went to UCD, a number went to Oxbridge etc, so I don't know, maybe the Leaving Cert is harder. But it really depends on the A-level subject, I dont know if Trinity have requirements for this, for instance asking not to do certain A-level subjects which are deemed easier than others.

Ye 80% is an A but it's not just calculated from an end of school exam like ours is. We got talking about this because I was looking at A-level maths material and it looked the same as what we have yet I got a B1 (same percentage as their A).

And on the other hand, the LC French and German papers (I sat the A-Levels and tutor students for the LC) are very easy compared to the A-Level papers. A lot of students in my French class had good LC grades, yet they hadn't even covered a lot of the grammar, and had never studied literature! The standard of the Northern Irish students was much, much higher and this was noted by the lecturers. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but the British system is basically university preparation - studying a few subjects in detail. We have GCSE's (which are supposedly between the JC and the LC in difficulty) to cover general education, and as someone pointed out only 50% of students in the UK even get the MINIMUM 5 A*-C passes at GCSE, which puts them out of education before they even get to A-Level. Then there are all the students who choose to leave, get technical qualifications or don't get enough points to get into sixth form (in my school you had to have good GCSE's, not just passes, to be allowed to do A-Levels) who don't sit A-Levels. That's why comparing pass rates is silly - most Irish students sit the LC, while only the best 25% or so of the British students do A-Levels. The only reason to do them is to go to college, so of course people tend to do well. They aren't a general leaving exam like the LC. The problem with this is that the 2 systems are so completely different, that you can't compare like with like.

Chunky Monkey

I understand, I wasn't putting down the A-levels, I would have loved the opportunity to just do the subjects I like in detail and avoid subjects like Irish. I do think A-level students are treated unfairly here. 4 As at A2 at the first sitting are required for medicine (and then there's the lottery) yet in the UK all the med schools bar the London ones) look for reasonable grades from LC students with one which offered me an interview with only AAABBD on a second attempt.