New poll religion in schools

Nevyn

The last poll was too heavily loaded so lets try this again.

netwhizkid

I think the system that I was schooled in was fine while in National Primary School, there was about 5 or so Non-Catholics in school and they just simply sat through the lessons. I remember envying them as they never had hardly homework to do as they did it during Religion.

It is a fair system considering that the Majority of Irish people are Catholic, I have my reservations about it but why bring Children into it. If the parents of non-catholic children don't like ti they can send them to school that choose their religion or else teach them their particular religion themselves. This is one of the things that Ireland always had and should not be changed just because a few foreigners are coming into the country. Next thing there will be riots over the Islamic Burkha or something.

If it ain't broken don't fix it, When I was going to school it was a case of getting as many kids as possible to keep the teachers, although now the numbers are massive again.

luckat

Netwhiz, I don't agree with you. If the majority are Catholic, they're surely able to school their children in their religion at home or send them to a Sunday school.

After all, if the majority of the people living in Ireland were dedicated Communists, that wouldn't necessarily mean your kid should have to learn that particular creed.

The State and religion do not belong in the same place.

Nevyn

netwhizkid wrote:

I think the system that I was schooled in was fine while in National Primary School, there was about 5 or so Non-Catholics in school and they just simply sat through the lessons. I remember envying them as they never had hardly homework to do as they did it during Religion.

So you admit there have always been non catholic irish familes.

netwhizkid wrote:

If the parents of non-catholic children don't like ti they can send them to school that choose their religion or else teach them their particular religion themselves. This is one of the things that Ireland always had and should not be changed just because a few foreigners are coming into the country.

This change and crisis is a combination of bad/lack of planning as houses were build and new communities and the fact that many people are leaving the catholic church and no longer bowing to family pressure to conform.

For years people clelebrated the miles stone in thier lives in conjunction with church sacrements but that is changing. Culturally and socitally Ireland is changing and the school system is one that will have to change to reflect it.

netwhizkid wrote:

Next thing there will be riots over the Islamic Burkha or something.

Now that is inflamatory and just silly and not welcome here please think before you post.

netwhizkid wrote:

If it ain't broken don't fix it, When I was going to school it was a case of getting as many kids as possible to keep the teachers, although now the numbers are massive again.

It is broke, when you are looking at a 200 children with out a place for school when stepember starts it is broken.

http://www.joanburton.ie/?postid=353

snickerpuss

I do think it that secular schools are badly needed in Ireland but at the same stage i wouldn't be too worried about sending my (hypothetical) children to a catholic school since i went to them and learnt nothing at all about religion.
But they are clearly needed for people who don't wish to send them to catholic schools / who want a decent choice of schools.

Ickle Magoo

I am not Catholic & I had to enroll my children as soon as they were born (and they only just squeaked in) to ensure they get a place in the only multi-demoninational school in the area...that means we cannot move area without loosing their school places. There is clearly an enormous problem if parents are forced to enroll at birth. I find the "it ain't broke (for me) so don't fix it" a fairly common response largely from those with Catholic backgrounds & without any exposure to many people from outside their own faith & culture. :mad:

I don't see my kids segregated & sitting in a corridor because the direct teaching of Catholicism used here goes against our beliefs as anywhere near satisfactory for a PUBLIC school system. :rolleyes: Its archiac.

sonic juice

Religion is a fog.

jimmycrackcorm

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I am not Catholic & I had to enroll my children as soon as they were born (and they only just squeaked in) to ensure they get a place in the only multi-demoninational school in the area...that means we cannot move area without loosing their school places. There is clearly an enormous problem if parents are forced to enroll at birth. I find the "it ain't broke (for me) so don't fix it" a fairly common response largely from those with Catholic backgrounds & without any exposure to many people from outside their own faith & culture. :mad:

I don't see my kids segregated & sitting in a corridor because the direct teaching of Catholicism used here goes against our beliefs as anywhere near satisfactory for a PUBLIC school system. :rolleyes: Its archiac.

We don't have a state school system, we have a state-sponsored one. I also think you'd find that most catholics have no objection to the department of Education supporting new schools that are not Catholic. It's simply that the Catholic church is very experienced and adept in education building programmes. They can usually show a strong demand in pupil numbers to justify building programmes.

I hardly think that forcing the nationalization of Catholic schools is the answer as we do condone Freedom of Religion. In reality your problem is with the attitude of people not choosing a non-denominational school over a religion based school - they just don't see any real advantage in shouting for a non-denominational school, or at least not enough of them do.

The problem that gives way to having to register your childs school place at birth is due to the lead time in building schools to match the population growth. There have been many instances of Catholic schools

I can understand your intentions though, My child goes to a Gaelscoil and I'd equally suggest that these schools should get preferential treatment in the national interest. However there likely would be many people protesting that Gaelscoileanna are not suitable for non-native Irish.

From what I have observed, if enough people want a non-denominational school then they will get one, which is why I support the "if it ain't broke for me" attitude - it's democracy like it or lump it.

oRlyYaRly

Until I was 11 I though that I was bold because I didn't believe in God. Of course children shouldn't be thought religion! :eek:

Maccattack

What about RELIGION SHOULD BE BANNED IN SCHOOLS?

Nevyn

I think instrcution and indoctrination should not be in shools, but a program to learn about different religions and create understanding should be in place.

qwertplaywert

i ''learn'' from a religion book aimed at cathalics........it should be though..but with a non-bias approch.................and the teachers shouldnt be allowed give out to pupils who dont stand and pray if the teacher makes the class do this at the start of the class......i got punished for this a few times[i refused to stand up on the grounds of my beliefs.......im aethiest] and he got the year end and the year end was givng out as well.....i just ignored them

jimmycrackcorm

I would hope now though that kids don't get walloped for not knowing how to say a hail mary. perhaps the schools are more enlightened These days.

Ickle Magoo

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

We don't have a state school system, we have a state-sponsored one. I also think you'd find that most catholics have no objection to the department of Education supporting new schools that are not Catholic. It's simply that the Catholic church is very experienced and adept in education building programmes. They can usually show a strong demand in pupil numbers to justify building programmes.

I hardly think that forcing the nationalization of Catholic schools is the answer as we do condone Freedom of Religion. In reality your problem is with the attitude of people not choosing a non-denominational school over a religion based school - they just don't see any real advantage in shouting for a non-denominational school, or at least not enough of them do.

The problem that gives way to having to register your childs school place at birth is due to the lead time in building schools to match the population growth. There have been many instances of Catholic schools

I can understand your intentions though, My child goes to a Gaelscoil and I'd equally suggest that these schools should get preferential treatment in the national interest. However there likely would be many people protesting that Gaelscoileanna are not suitable for non-native Irish.

From what I have observed, if enough people want a non-denominational school then they will get one, which is why I support the "if it ain't broke for me" attitude - it's democracy like it or lump it.

I didn't say you had a state school system, what I said was it was shocking baring in mind this is your public school system. That includes every member of your public - Irish or not, Catholic or not.

The unfairness of it all comes into it when you fight to get your child into a school that is not religious just to realise that you are fighting for places against many parents who are religious & who have a choice of 3 schools in the area (indeed, they expect the ET school to stay open in the evenings & wkends so their children can learn religious scripture despite choosing not to send them to a religious school). No emphasis or protection is given to families who are not Catholic to ensure their children are given the kind of multi-denominational education wanted but if I dare to question the status quo I am told to put up & shut up. Where is the democracy in that? Surely the best all round is to make a larger proportion of schools multi-denominational? That is all I want. There is obviously a large number of Catholic parents who prefer the ET ethos if the enrollment numbers at our local school is anything to go by.

The UK is a predominantly Christian country, yet the majority of British schools are multidenominational state schools. Why is the Irish attitude that Ireland is predominantly Catholic so to hell (no pun intended) with whatever anyone else wants? What a terribly closed-minded, divisive attitude.

[sorry, edited for bad spelling]

qwertplaywert

i wanted to go to the local private school[grammer]cause of its non religious ness.........my dad was keen cause it had a good rep but my mam wouldnt allow it as of the religion issue........

jill_valentine

My parents were Catholic, and I went to a Catholic school, and I resented the intrusion of religion on my education. Ideally, I'd like a completely secular education system, but I'd settle for a choice, which we don't have. I don't think I've ever actually seen a non-religious school. I don't think kids should learn about talking bushes and algebra from the same system. I have issues with parents dictating their kids religion from an early age anyway, but whatever, on their own time. Education should be seperate.

neoB

I'd have to agree with Thaed on the "program to learn about different religions and create understanding should be in place."
I would have loved that going to school. Just to see if it helps people from being less ignorant and understanding others beliefs. But I can say I wouldn't want my child going to a school for a religion I don't even belive in. It's not right and ickle magoo that is awful. I'm only glad somewhat being in America so I don't have to worry about such a thing. Now all I have to do is search for a decent school for my child and hope for the best. Public school here is such a scary thing these days, and I don't just mean violence but their curriculum as well as low scores they get for a school as a whole.

qwertplaywert

if religion is though so should the basis of atonigismn and aetiestism

Ickle Magoo

What is atonigismn?

qwertplaywert

properly rong spelling lbnol

TempestSabre

Where I am its probably easier to my child into a non religious school than the local RC schools. And as I cchild always travelled to a school out of my home area, I don't see what the fuss is about. There are other options in this country. They might require more effort than just dumping your kid in the local parish school because its "handy". I know people who have moved countries to get their children into a particualar schools or system. I guess it comes down to how motivated you are.

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

Where I am its probably easier to my child into a non religious school than the local RC schools. And as I cchild always travelled to a school out of my home area, I don't see what the fuss is about. There are other options in this country. They might require more effort than just dumping your kid in the local parish school because its "handy". I know people who have moved countries to get their children into a particualar schools or system. I guess it comes down to how motivated you are.

Don't assume that the desire to get into local schools is about what is 'handy'. It is often about mixing with immediate neighbours, about avoiding the need for adding one more car-based school run onto the currently creaking traffic infrastructure, about avoid the need to have 2 cars in a family etc.

qwertplaywert

and about your child being ridicidled/bullied by other children if he/she refuses to pretend to be a certain faith

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

Don't assume that the desire to get into local schools is about what is 'handy'. It is often about mixing with immediate neighbours, about avoiding the need for adding one more car-based school run onto the currently creaking traffic infrastructure, about avoid the need to have 2 cars in a family etc.

You can mix with you neighbours even if you've no kids, its easier if you have kids alright, and not everyone needs a car to get out of their area.

TempestSabre

qwertplaywert wrote:

and about your child being ridicidled/bullied by other children if he/she refuses to pretend to be a certain faith

In non religious schools?

RainyDay

TempestSabre wrote:

You can mix with you neighbours even if you've no kids, its easier if you have kids alright, and not everyone needs a car to get out of their area.

I was referring to the kids mixing with their neighbours, not the adults. The further you get away from your local school, the more likely you are to need a car commute.

TempestSabre

RainyDay wrote:

I was referring to the kids mixing with their neighbours, not the adults. The further you get away from your local school, the more likely you are to need a car commute.

Ah yes that makes more sense.

You can pick a school near yourself, or near public transport or one thats needs a car. Thats a matter of choice for most people, not everyone of course.

Personally I got the bus or cycled to primary school, secondary, college etc.

Ickle Magoo

It's not a choice for those living outside Dublin :rolleyes:

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

It's not a choice for those living outside Dublin :rolleyes:

Is Dublin the only town/city in Ireland.

Its only in recent years that kids have lost will to walk and needed to be chauffeured to school.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Is Dublin the only town/city in Ireland.

Well, frankly you'd think so the way some people assume things...;)

TempestSabre wrote:

Its only in recent years that kids have lost will to walk and needed to be chauffeured to school.

It's not a loss of will round these parts - we don't have the luxury of a public transport system, Luas, or whatever - it's car or shanks' pony. Some people cannot afford the time or effort of loading up several children & walking them miles in horrible weather to get their 4/5/6yr old safely to the school gates. I walked or cycled to school too - but I don't really think it is a viable option for those with very young children.

TheBigLebowski

If I had my way religion would be banned, not just from schools, but from Ireland, for being a ridiculous (and dangerous) idea. I seriously have to wonder about anyone who believes in it.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Well, frankly you'd think so the way some people assume things...;)

Ickle Magoo wrote:

It's not a loss of will round these parts - we don't have the luxury of a public transport system, Luas, or whatever - it's car or shanks' pony. Some people cannot afford the time or effort of loading up several children & walking them miles in horrible weather to get their 4/5/6yr old safely to the school gates. I walked or cycled to school too - but I don't really think it is a viable option for those with very young children.

Theres an awful lot of people in Dublin don't have access to the DART or LUAS either.

You said it. Time or effort. But it has turned full circle here. We often walk our toddlers to the local schools/creches (not always the nearest) because its faster to do than driving. It might save 30mins. I'm sure there are places where walking or public transport isn't an option. But its the minority not the majority. Most people take the car because it less effort and time. I do it myself.:o

TempestSabre

TheBigLebowski wrote:

If I had my way religion would be banned, not just from schools, but from Ireland, for being a ridiculous (and dangerous) idea. I seriously have to wonder about anyone who believes in it.

"There are no atheists in foxholes"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheists_in_foxholes

Its only a sound bite and I don't want to sidetrack the topic. I sit on the fence myself.

Ickle Magoo

My sons creche is a couple of miles away on a 100kph ring-road...I'm not walking with him until sufficient public transport is provided...I know many, many parents from all over non-Dublin Ireland with the same problem.

Especially now it is cold & dark - and usually wet to boot, do you really think people should walk miles to & from a school - with a buggy & other kids? I have a baby & if my son was going to school I'd have to leave in the middle of the night to get him there & back in time for the baby's feeds - not to mention how wet & miserable we would all be...my entire day would revolve around school pick ups & drop-offs. I have no issue with puting time & effort into walking from A -B but when my childs comfort or safety is in the balance & there is no public transport system - then there is no alternative to driving.

Triangle

I think religion itself has no part in our schooling system. But then some sort of civic responsibility needs to be taught in schools.
Historically this has been taught by the religion of the school (i.e. the religions view on morality was taught), if we remove religion as a subject in school then sometyhing else needs to replace it.

TempestSabre

I think we're getting off topic here. But I agree with you re:use of the car. I make the choice myself and most of the time I use the car. But if required it is possible to rearrange your life to avoid the car, and use public transport. But I like many have chosen not to do so. As the disadvantage outweigh the advantages. Ironically, as I spent most of my school & college years using public transport I hate traveling on it now. Especially since I now know how good it is in many other countries, and how bad ours is.

But in terms of finding non religious education. Its there if you want to find it.

Ickle Magoo

To say there is no morality without religion is just rediculous.

I am athiest, I teach my children morals - this "only religion produces good people" attitude drives me bonkers! I presume the Irish crime rate is zero as the civic attitude taught in the Catholic schools here is so wonderful?! :rolleyes:

Edited to say: the above was in response to Triangle - I forgot to quote, sorry...

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

But in terms of finding non religious education. Its there if you want to find it.

It's there - just - but if you read my original posts on this thread you will see that it is not nearly acceptable to me that publicly offered education has decended to the state that it is now in & why. I think to assume that non-religious schools now exist in Ireland so all is well is avoiding admiting the extent of the issue...

TempestSabre

Triangle wrote:

I think religion itself has no part in our schooling system. But then some sort of civic responsibility needs to be taught in schools.
Historically this has been taught by the religion of the school (i.e. the religions view on morality was taught), if we remove religion as a subject in school then sometyhing else needs to replace it.

Something along those lines is the way it works in japan. I was doing some reading on the web about it and its an interesting idea. For some reason I'm having a flashback to Starship Troopers for some reason.

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

...I presume the Irish crime rate is zero as the civic attitude taught in the Catholic schools here is so wonderful?!......

I suspect that those linked to the crime rate haven't the greatest attendance records.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

It's there - just - but if you read my original posts on this thread you will see that it is not nearly acceptable to me that publicly offered education has decended to the state that it is now in & why. I think to assume that non-religious schools now exist in Ireland so all is well is avoiding admiting the extent of the issue...

Descended from what exactly?

The current situation is far from ideal I agree. Especially in the cultural changes in society over the past decade or so. But thats a very short time compared to the how long the system has been in place. I'm just saying its not like you've NO choice which is the picture being portrayed by some.

Nevyn

TempestSabre wrote:

But in terms of finding non religious education. Its there if you want to find it.

For a lot of people it is not.

Triangle

Ickle Magoo wrote:

To say there is no morality without religion is just rediculous.

I am athiest, I teach my children morals - this "only religion produces good people" attitude drives me bonkers! I presume the Irish crime rate is zero as the civic attitude taught in the Catholic schools here is so wonderful?! :rolleyes:

Edited to say: the above was in response to Triangle - I forgot to quote, sorry...

Ickle,
I never said there was no morality without religion. I am an Athiest but I have a good sense of morality (imo).
What i did say was - if you look at the historic schooling systems (majority of them) then the morality was always taught in Religion classes, if it was taught at all.
Morality is not something you can just spend 1 hour a day at. it is a collection of upbringing, peers, and environment. But it should be addresssed in school in some sort of fashion.

TempestSabre

Thaedydal wrote:

For a lot of people it is not.

Being so close to Christmas (religious I know) and I don't want to start panto posting, but its not as hard as some make out. You could attend a parish schools and opt out of religion. Same way some opt out of sport or Irish etc.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

I suspect that those linked to the crime rate haven't the greatest attendance records.

I think the suggestion that those that listen to religious instruction are better - morally or behaviourally than those that don't is complete & utter nonsence, lol!

TempestSabre wrote:

Descended from what exactly?

The current situation is far from ideal I agree. Especially in the cultural changes in society over the past decade or so. But thats a very short time compared to the how long the system has been in place. I'm just saying its not like you've NO choice which is the picture being portrayed by some.

Maybe decended is a bad word to use - undeveloped, archiac, old-fashioned, devisive, discrimnatory, etc, etc may have been better - if not a little lengthier...the old "such a short time since cultural change" card was played earlier in the thread...again I would have to ask why other countries were capapble of accepting & moving forward with these changes while Ireland remained stuck in the past with a Church-led/owned public education system...

Some people do have NO choice, those lucky few with a choice have a very, very limited choice which means they may have to entroll children at birth, campaign local authorities for many years, travel long distances & are restricted as to where they can then move to in the interim yrs...far from ideal is putting it mildly - as any one of the parents actually wanting their child to experience multi-cultural & muti-religious education has been trying to tell you.

Ickle Magoo

TempestSabre wrote:

Being so close to Christmas (religious I know) and I don't want to start panto posting, but its not as hard as some make out. You could attend a parish schools and opt out of religion. Same way some opt out of sport or Irish etc.

Tempest, I get sooooooo angry when people think my kids sitting in a corridor while the rest of their peers do something relative to their religion is an acceptable alternative to modernising the education system here...I really don't think it is something you can possibly understand unless you feel strongly about your children not attending a religious school.

Ickle Magoo

Triangle wrote:

Ickle,
I never said there was no morality without religion. I am an Athiest but I have a good sense of morality (imo).
What i did say was - if you look at the historic schooling systems (majority of them) then the morality was always taught in Religion classes, if it was taught at all.
Morality is not something you can just spend 1 hour a day at. it is a collection of upbringing, peers, and environment. But it should be addresssed in school in some sort of fashion.

Surely the most basic of school rules set out morality? No bullying, no violence, no stealing, etc, etc? Not to mention the most basic of parenting...religious or not there are always going to be parents that fail their children in that respect. If it is not something than can be taught in 1hr a day classes then surely that rules out religious classes as having any impact on morality at all?

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

I think the suggestion that those that listen to religious instruction are better - morally or behaviourally than those that don't is complete & utter nonsence, lol!

I meant they probably don't listen to any instruction, religious or otherwise.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Maybe decended is a bad word to use - undeveloped, archiac, old-fashioned, devisive, discrimnatory, etc, etc may have been better - if not a little lengthier...the old "such a short time since cultural change" card was played earlier in the thread...again I would have to ask why other countries were capapble of accepting & moving forward with these changes while Ireland remained stuck in the past with a Church-led/owned public education system...

IMO other countries had social & cultural changes that forced the change much earlier.

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Some people do have NO choice, those lucky few with a choice have a very, very limited choice which means they may have to entroll children at birth, campaign local authorities for many years, travel long distances & are restricted as to where they can then move to in the interim yrs...far from ideal is putting it mildly - as any one of the parents actually wanting their child to experience multi-cultural & muti-religious education has been trying to tell you.

People move to have better access to resources, employment etc. I don't see how non religious education is any different.

Ickle Magoo

Hmmm - I think we'll have to agree to disagree....

I also think you could draw the comparison between jobs, resources, etc & non-religious schools if there were 1000 jobs & 5000 houses for the entire country...as it is the comparison is wayyyyy off! Despite having the choice of many religious schools in the area, our local ET school is made up of 40% of Catholic children - if you roll that out nationwide, would that not suggest a huge overhall of the education system is LONG overdue?

layke

Axe Religion as it is now. It's the churches job to teach you if your into that sort of thing.

However I would be in favor of a class that doesn't actually just teach christianity but explains more about different religions and trys to teach tollerance and that 'everyone is different' type of atitude.

So yes I do like the idea of religion, just not taching a specific one to kids.

Nevyn

TempestSabre wrote:

Being so close to Christmas (religious I know) and I don't want to start panto posting, but its not as hard as some make out. You could attend a parish schools and opt out of religion. Same way some opt out of sport or Irish etc.

Again it sets up a conflict in the messages being given to children and can undermind the teacher and cause confusion.

Clearly you dont see this as a big issue for you TempestSabre but it is for others who have children and see that the system should be changed.
Why not have the RE at the end of the school day so that those who do not want to particpath can go home ?

TempestSabre

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Tempest, I get sooooooo angry when people think my kids sitting in a corridor while the rest of their peers do something relative to their religion is an acceptable alternative to modernising the education system here...I really don't think it is something you can possibly understand unless you feel strongly about your children not attending a religious school.

Well the school should at least provide them a room to study instead. We dropped out of Latin and had a study period instead. Most of us took up another subject outside of school to compensate.

I take your point about, that there should be a better system. Theres two sides of it. Religious schools offering alternatives, and still receive state funding. Or don't and lose some state funding. Then provide funding for none religious schools like the educate together.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/4_help_us_with_our_work/donations.html
http://www.educatetogether.ie/4_help_us_with_our_work/lobbying.html

My opinion is that religious education is usually mediocre, and often thrown in as a token gesture rather than the indoctrination that people are suggesting. I can't imagine unless you've an especially fervent teacher that it has much effect, especially when you consider the apathy towards religion of any kind of younger generations, and I included my own in that. after being through the system.

Personally I think the bigger problem is the lack of school spaces of ANY kind. The lack of capacity in the system as whole as massive problem and its this govt thats to blame for that. Then theres the health service, but don't get me started in THAT!