The All Consuming Black Belt

Roper

No no, its not the title of some monster movie...

I was reading some of the posts in another topic and was looking to get some peoples reaction to the concept of the black belt.

For me, nothing means so much and yet so little. I remember starting martial arts as a kid and a black belt was like a God! The ultimate ass kicker with the spiritual highs to match.

Now it seems to me that we never really grow out of that view. Usually when I tell people I do martial arts they say "ooh, are you a black belt?" with some kind of awe. I remember a newbie in a club I used to train in offering to pack my gear for me (I didn't let him, how stupid was I?:D ), and he was about 5 years older than I was!!!!

It was once described to me as being "like a university degree", but thats not true really, as you can expect (in a single country anyway) a degree to represent a general standard. A black belt in Ireland can mean a competitive Judo player or a casual TKD trainer who has put the time in and learned lots of patterns.

I'd be interested to hear your view. This might be a good one for those lurkers who've said they don't think they're experienced enough to comment on other things, as I'm looking for everyones view no matter what stage of MA you're at.

Nothingcompares

Well I got into martial arts in my late teens and to tell the truth, I wasn't all that interested in getting a black belt. However, I did do the gradings as often as they came up til about half way then I kinda stopped doing them. I'd no real plans to do them ever again. Then I was involved administravely in a judo club and realised that with a low ranking colour belt people were actually a little dismissive of you. I then trained in a club that due to numbers seperated coloured and black/brown belts so I decided I go and do the gradings and see if I could get promoted because I didn't want to be stuck in the "intermediate" section.
A black belt in Judo, in my opinion, isn't a symbol of having completed something but more of a beginning. I think most judo black belts can say their real competitive and improvment stages were after their 1st dans. The principle of judo is either black belt or non-black belt and it's kinda important to carry on the tradition of taking gradings when you should and not sandbagging.

I really get annoyed when people ask me what belt I am in x and y. Really bores me.

monkey tennis

Roper wrote:

It was once described to me as being "like a university degree", but thats not true really, as you can expect (in a single country anyway) a degree to represent a general standard.

When explaining to non-MA heads, I like to regard a dan-grade as kind of like a driver's licence: the standard varies from bearer to bearer, and all it means is that their skills matched or surpassed a vague set of criteria. A new black-belt is no more an expert of martial arts than a newly licenced driver is an expert of the roads. All it represents is basic competence.

Also, I'm of the opinion that there should be no more than 3 or so belts or categories for adults in a martial arts system: beginner, intermediate, adanced. Then again, boxing and wrestling do fine without graded belts...

mark.leonard

I like the "Driver's License" concept, it is not a bad analogy.

When I started training I was fueled by the thoughts of one day becoming the epitome of martial arts accomplishment. Then when I got there, I realised it was only the start of training in Taekwondo and went further. The problem with learning more of course is you realise how much you don't know, and I realised that the black belt was something HUGE to people who know nothing about martial arts, but the more you know about training and life in general the less value you put on the belt and the more you put on the wearer.

I would love to say that people in the wider Taekwondo community see the black belt as no big deal, but its generally not the case, far too much weight is attached to being a black belt, and some of the behaviour by and towards Dan grades is ridiculous to say the least!

monkey tennis

monkey tennis wrote:

All it represents is basic competence.

Yeah that's what I think too.
It’s not the be-all-and-end-all but I suppose it’s something to work towards, a personal goal if you like. My own instructor tells me that’s when the real learning starts.
As for black belt standards varying, well that’s true but individual capabilities also vary. For example I get frustrated at my crap kicks but then I remember how I could hardly put one foot in front of the other when I started.
So I gauge my progress against myself, not the former kickboxer I’m sparring or the 55-year-old new bloke.
Without fail, the first question from anyone not involved in martial arts is always ‘what belt are you?’ so the black belt ‘mystery’ lives on.

cowzerp

im from a boxing background and always thought it was funny when i'd see a black belt in kenpo who was usually fat and could not fight even a basic scrap never mind a real fight-all this says is the belt is not that important in the real world. this is not a dig at traditional ma-just an observation.

NeiloMac

Yeah but could that Fat black belt fight in his day maybe,
Just cos he aged and got a little puffy does not mean you should take it way from him does it,

The driving licence thing is very good, i like that, As a new BB myself i still have lots and lots to learn and still get my ass handed to me, sometimes by that old fat black belt in the cornor, :rolleyes:

Roper

Thanks for the replies so far guys. Just on some of the more annoying dogmatic points of grades, here's some TKD nonsense, some places enforce it more than others and it always depends on how much a part of the "in" crowd you are as well I think...

1st and 2nd Dans are to referred to as Mr. or Ms/Miss. But when greeting them you can say "Hello Sir" or Hello Ma'am".
3rd Dans and higher are to referred to Similarly as Mr. or Miss Johnson, but when greeting them you must always say their surname. So "Hello Sir" ist verbotten! You must say "Hello Mr. Johnson Sir".
Masters are another story, even when they're not present you can't refer top them casually. So I can't say "I was talking to Master Leonard the other day and HE said..." NO, NEIN!! I must say "I was talking to Master Leonard the other day and Master Leonard said..."

That was the sort of dogma that for me, became more important than the actual individual involved.

Millionaire

as a teen when i started...to get a black belt was God like...of course back then, I was watching enter the dragon at least 3 times a week too.

I got black belt when I was 15 after 3 years in kickboxing. Junior Black Belt, but test was same as adults exactly, so I do not know what made the difference. when you were over 16 you were a senior.

When you do not have a black belt, you want one, and when you get one you kind of disregard it, and look more at it in terms of if you can fight or not.

Muay Thai got no belts, and there is no hiding out when doing thai.

Actually I am a 4th degree Black Belt. 2nd degree I graded for, mainly a ton of hard sparring with other black belts, when I was about 27. 3rd I got, cause a few years later, there was a more experience guy, and better fighter and I could "hang with him" and I think 4th came just because I was in and around Mu Gen Do Kickboxing for 20 years.

I see getting a black belt as a symbol of your training has just begun, and you around long enough and have skill and techique to train properly.

so back belt to me is just the beginnings.

Its great to have a black belt in a system, and to have achieved it.

Now i know in Kickboxing in some places you can get black belts quicker, however there is only a few punches and kicks and you do alot of sparring, so your spending more time in "live" sparring, that say a guy who has to learn 10 long Katas and perfect them. so potentially the kickboxer might be a better fighter.

anyway belt or no belts, but someone in a good hard years of muay thai training, with plenty of sparring and live pad work, and I believe their fighting abilities would out class many black belts in more traditional systems.

of course we all got exceptions to this statement.

Roper

Good post Gerry,

I also think that someone who learns a more traditional form of martial arts with little sparring and katas, prearranged moves etc. is just as entitled to a black belt as the next man, so long as that is the stated aim of the art. I've seen a few older people who would not be doing physical exercise like the gym or fitness classes who enjoy the learning aspect of taekwondo, the fact that there is grades to map their progress etc. I'm thinking of one guy in particular who was pushing 70 when he started and got his black belt, but had no pretensions about his combat ability. He was genuinely an inspiration to watch training.

scuttery1

The black belt is also a handy catch all for the media, particularly in the early days of MA in the west, to describe these new "superhumans". How many times have you seen someone described as a "blackbelt expert" in the media and the words lethal or deadly in close proximity?
I remember years ago getting caught badly by the whole belt pigeon hole thing. Raw beginner came training for the first time ever and was handed to me (1st dan) to do a light bit of sparring with. Cocky boy here says to the noob " just relax and move around ....blah blah" Whack a big ignornant rear leg roundhouse lands up side my napper. I respond with the immortal phrase " beginners can't do that" Dude was a Van Damme fanactic and had been practising at home throwing "shapes". Lesson learnt, take no one on face value or bit of cloth around their expanding middle:D

Millionaire

thats brilliant a guy of 70 getting a black belt.

Actually I taught a man who I would say was in in his mid 70s (but told me he was 68) on my KM Self defence last year, and he gave it his heart and soul.

I read somewhere recently about some guy was 40s and he wanted to take up an MA...never did anything physical in his life. he started in judo, and ended up a 5th Dan, many years later!

Yes, some one who has trained to the requirements of the system they are in, is as much a black belt as then next man. in fact the traditional stuf in a way is harder to obtain, as learning all the Kata, and bunkai (is that the word for fighting applications of the kata), takes years and years!

It amazes me what it take to get grades in BJJ....probably because I know nothing about it..... as it is graded live (right???) and yet takes years to get BB level, so there must be alot of techniques in there to learn too??????

Why does it take so long, I guess is my question, if there is no kata like training? (if that makes sense?)

I can see myself, maybe with Gods will, if I live to be an elderly person, learning something like a softer king fu style from the beginnings and doing the forms etc etc.

Millionaire

scuttery1 wrote:

The black belt is also a handy catch all for the media, particularly in the early days of MA in the west, to describe these new "superhumans". How many times have you seen someone described as a "blackbelt expert" in the media and the words lethal or deadly in close proximity?
I remember years ago getting caught badly by the whole belt pigeon hole thing. Raw beginner came training for the first time ever and was handed to me (1st dan) to do a light bit of sparring with. Cocky boy here says to the noob " just relax and move around ....blah blah" Whack a big ignornant rear leg roundhouse lands up side my napper. I respond with the immortal phrase " beginners can't do that" Dude was a Van Damme fanactic and had been practising at home throwing "shapes". Lesson learnt, take no one on face value or bit of cloth around their expanding middle:D

LOL!!!

Anytime I got a bad busted nose, or black eye...usually was from someone with a few months training, who was just starting sparring, and the exact same thing would happen. A big ignorant full blast haymaker out of the blue, when your trying to being the lad on, giving it about 20% yourself and being gentle.

Re High Dan grades.... I cannot figure out what qualifies you for 5, 6, 7, 8 Dan etc.

As I said I am a 4th (not that I bother with it these days) and I cannot figure out why I got it even!

I can see the sense of maybe a 3rd Dan, as in saying this guy is not a newbie black belt and the 3rd dan, means he has been around a good few years after 1st and 2n dan....but after that????

Or set your own style and become a 10th Dan! LOL!

cowzerp

NeiloMac thats part of what bothers me-im a boxer-now doing mma and plan on been able to kick ass till my last days-a big fat instructor is no example to students and can not be taken seriously-practise what you preach..if your 1 of the fat instructors lose the weight and get back to fighting ways-best of luck with it!

NeiloMac

Ok, i study Judo and in doing that, you learn to respect others in the sport, regardless of there size, age, fittness and belt colour,

Also there are plenty of fat old judoka that im sure would gladly show you that, the old dog still has some teeth,

and no, im not fat nor am i out of shape, but i will respect my seniors,

loz

cowzerp wrote:

NeiloMac thats part of what bothers me-im a boxer-now doing mma and plan on been able to kick ass till my last days-a big fat instructor is no example to students and can not be taken seriously-practise what you preach..if your 1 of the fat instructors lose the weight and get back to fighting ways-best of luck with it!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Absolute tosh

A coaches job is to coach, if your coach has the knowledge to make his fighters improve and win fights then he's doing his job correctly.

who said all coachs must be currently competing, and ranking 1 in area ?

Colm_OReilly

In my Kenpo days there was a lot of "when you get your BB, that's when the real learning starts" but when I got my BB, and hung with all the other BB's, that's when all the standing around talking about how good you were started.

Also accompanied that was the propensity towards weight gain and mustaches.

I wouldn't agree with the degree thing. Degrees differ vastly between universities and even within universities.

As a God to kids, when I wear my BB they go "wow!" even more than when I explain to them concepts such as a tasty sub. I even tried to remove the belt system from the young Spartans (which would have reduced my revenue) but they demanded it! Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Colm

Dyr

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Also accompanied that was the propensity towards weight gain and mustaches.

I thought the cultivation of the kenpo 'tache was a part of the black belt syllabus

cowzerp

colm you hit the nail on the head-i done kenpo years ago and my trainer was fat with a mustache!!! and loz a big fat coach teaching forms is not my idea of fight training or self defense-its like aerobics without the music-i must of hit a nerve! thats why mma is thought more like boxing-no bul**** just effective training..:D

loz

cowzerp wrote:

colm you hit the nail on the head-i done kenpo years ago and my trainer was fat with a mustache!!! and loz a big fat coach teaching forms is not my idea of fight training or self defense-its like aerobics without the music-i must of hit a nerve! thats why mma is thought more like boxing-no bul**** just effective training..:D

who mentioned coache teaching forms ?? - all i implyed was that just because a coach may be past him own prime -does not mean he should now quit, if he has knowledge to pass on.


and im neither fat nor a coach - so no - no nerve hit - jump back off that conclusion - you're crushing it.

cowzerp

your totally missing the point-if a trainer is not fit enough to do the techniques he is not up to scratch-nobody but you mentioned competition-but the point of most arts is defense and the trainers im talking about would be beaten up by a normal fella on the street-belt not helping in any way-from the way your defending these trainers i think you might aspire to become 1 of them-best of luck.

Bambi

Bambi wrote:

I thought the cultivation of the kenpo 'tache was a part of the black belt syllabus

jaysus I’d better get waxing :eek:

loz

cowzerp wrote:

your totally missing the point-if a trainer is not fit enough to do the techniques he is not up to scratch-nobody but you mentioned competition-but the point of most arts is defense and the trainers im talking about would be beaten up by a normal fella on the street-belt not helping in any way-from the way your defending these trainers i think you might aspire to become 1 of them-best of luck.

I give up - theres an obvious education mismatch here - appologies

soma

Colm_OReilly wrote:

In my Kenpo days there was a lot of "when you get your BB, that's when the real learning starts" but when I got my BB, and hung with all the other BB's, that's when all the standing around talking about how good you were started.

*lol* I'll have to mention this to an Akido buddy who touts the "when you get your BB, that's when the real learning starts" mantra at least once a month.

cowzerp

im glad you accept your inferior education-not to worry.:)

crokester

So Helio Gracie would have nothing to teach you cowzerp?

cowzerp

helio gracie could still kick ass-im not been ageist-im saying age is not an excuse for been a 2nd rate trainer-my boxing trainers are all in 50's and still savage cause they train like the students-i have heard that helio is still quiet capable..

cmb.

for me - i always feltshotokan offered belts as almost a reward for time spent - having recieved my blackbelt as a teenager, i was of course very pleased and was very much a badge of honour but even then i really questioned what it truely meant - esp now that i am much more interested in functional martial arts, i wonder what knowing all those katas actually mean - so what if i can call out my moves in japaneese and perform several katas - as a true disciplin, i question what i actually learnt and what the belt repessented - now if the approach was that we were learning for the sake of learning and the performance of it then fine - but the logic then was that we were learning one of the 'deadly arts' - such nonsense - imho - as much as i enjoyed the club, it was great fun and made some good friends there, it didnt really offer what it promised, though that was not my motivation when i practiced

i honestly cant comment on shotokan today however as i have not praacticed it in many years

pearsquasher

The license I receive in my art is between me and my teacher as he's the one who is continually assessing my progress on the learning curve. If my teacher trains with other teachers and has his own teacher then it generally works out that people with similar licenses to me, under him, are generally on similar skill levels or can at least talk the same language, which is convenient for training. I've never experienced anyone asking what grade I was, even when I joined dojo of the same art in Sydney for 5 months. You train and gravitate towards people at your own level and the teachers there knew what level I was at without asking as in the end its all about where your at at that moment and a good teacher will see that.

Train with a good teacher and progress in your art, don't and you won't - everything else is gravy.

Tim_Murphy

1st and 2nd Dans are to referred to as Mr. or Ms/Miss. But when greeting them you can say "Hello Sir" or Hello Ma'am".
3rd Dans and higher are to referred to Similarly as Mr. or Miss Johnson, but when greeting them you must always say their surname. So "Hello Sir" ist verbotten! You must say "Hello Mr. Johnson Sir".
Masters are another story, even when they're not present you can't refer top them casually. So I can't say "I was talking to Master Leonard the other day and HE said..." NO, NEIN!! I must say "I was talking to Master Leonard the other day and Master Leonard said..."

Where do they do that??:eek: Even the most cultish ITF places I've been to weren't that bad.

Ya, a black belt is like a driving license, it doesn't actually mean you can drive for sh%t.

Tim_Murphy

1st and 2nd Dans are to referred to as Mr. or Ms/Miss. But when greeting them you can say "Hello Sir" or Hello Ma'am".
3rd Dans and higher are to referred to Similarly as Mr. or Miss Johnson, but when greeting them you must always say their surname. So "Hello Sir" ist verbotten! You must say "Hello Mr. Johnson Sir".
Masters are another story, even when they're not present you can't refer top them casually. So I can't say "I was talking to Master Leonard the other day and HE said..." NO, NEIN!! I must say "I was talking to Master Leonard the other day and Master Leonard said..."

Where do they do that??:eek: Even the most cultish ITF places I've been to weren't that bad.

Ya, a black belt is like a driving license, it doesn't actually mean you can drive for sh%t.

Jimkel

cowzerp wrote:

colm you hit the nail on the head-i done kenpo years ago and my trainer was fat with a mustache!!!

Ha mine too!

One way of describing a black belt is like a FAS course award, you've your foot in the door and a good understanding of the basics. Then it's on to the higher dan grades, FETACS's, Diploma's, degrees, Docterates etc

Some orginisations have alot of 10th degree's, Some style's would rarely go above 6th dan.

you could also say the Junior cert is like Black belt, You still have a long way to go to pass the leaving cert.

In Shotokan Generally a first dan isn't regarded that high, It is a symbol of achievement but also of a new beginning, and as they go up the dans the student becomes more and more responsible for his/her progress.

It takes 2 years between 1st and second dan, 3 between 3rd and 4th, 4 Between 4th and 5th etc, Then anything after 5th is by oppointment only and requires amongst other things a Thesis on any aspect of Karate-Do.
As a result a person would be well in their 40's before a level above 5th Dan could be reached.

There is very little defining difference between a 4th and 5th dan,Skill wise, or anything above that really. It comes down to what that person has done for the club, Orginisation, Shotokan's evolution etc. Dedication and Long service become the means by which the higher dans are awarded.

In Shotokan you could say

The coloured belts are like training from the outside in through physical input.

The dan grades are like training from the inside out, Adding wisdom and maturity to the physical knowledge.

A new black belt is only just at beginning this journey.


In Kenpo the crest of the dragon and the Tiger symbolises several things
Iv'e whipped these from a website to explain it properly.

"The Tiger
The Tiger represents Earthly strength and physical prowess. Like a beginning student in Kenpo, he is impressed with his own abilities and is eager to show them. He is strong, fast and ferocious, but lacks the inner strength that can only come with time, experience and humility. He looks up to the Dragon for guidance and reaches to him in the attempt to gain his wisdom and power"

The Tiger is like the Beginner student and the New black belt

"The Dragon
The Dragon represents spiritual strength and wisdom which comes with seasoning. Like an advanced student of Kenpo in his latter years of training, he treasures his knowledge and abilities and is not quick to display them. Humility and Self Restraint are strong characteristics of the Dragon. Time and experience has given him not only knowledge, strength and skill, but wisdom and inner peace. The attitude of the Dragon is always placed above the Earthly strength of the Tiger as shown on the crest, yet he is always in touch with his Tiger as depicted by the tip of his tail touching the Tiger’s paw."

The Tiger represents the seasoned Black belt, Maybe a 5th Dan


The media and common mentality would put black belt on a pedistal of mastery, I myself would look to the 6th degree and above internationally recognised Chief instructors as the real masters of Shotokan. As for other styles I don't know. Maybe I'ts all about the Mustache!

But the philosophies behind the Japanese belt system tend to hold true no matter whet style it is. As for the general term Black belt, It really does not mean that much.

The Belt grades where introduced in Japan as a way of breaking down an art and keeping track of the students progress. I read Jigoro Kano Founder of Judo was The man Behind the Japanese belt systems.

Before that there were no Belt systems in Karate, or TKD. They simply trained under teachers and let there own progress define there ability.

The coloured Belts in Shotokan are referred to as "Kyu" meaning "Competence"
it goes backwards from 9th KYU(Orangebelt) to 1st KYU (3rd Brown) Followed by 1st DAN up to a theoretical 10th Dan (Though this is very rare, You could count the 10th DANS in Shotokan history on one hand) A grade deserving of the Common "Black belt awe" would be more like 5th Dan in Shotokan.

But that awe would only hold true with Shotokan Karateka.

I'm heading for my Dan grading in the next year. I personnaly am aiming for
3rd Dan as a landmark. After that It does'nt really matter unless I hope to become a Chief instructor or something.

Unpossible

beginners can't do that

lol, I can imagine a BB standing there hand on check with a shocked look on his face while saying this.
I think Ive mentioned it before but I had a similar expirence in the local judo club
me: Ive done judo before
teacher: what belt are you?
me: Oh I didnt grade it was a college team and we just trained for a year and a half
teacher: oh you need to go into the beginner class to get your yellow belt
me: *pause*.... umm ok I guess (wishing I had turned up to my old instructors other school where I would have been graded)
The lesson passes where all we do is learn to fall
me: are we not grappling today?
teacher: what!!? you are only a beginner, not yellow belt yet
me: but in my last club we were on the mat grappling from the first lesson
Teacher laughs with one or two other judoka standing nearby
teacher: when you are a yellow belt maybe
3 classes later teacher asks people to try a sweep on him (he just showed us it). Everyone in the class gets it wrong in some way and have to drag him down or stand looking blankly at him wondering why it didnt work. I stand up grab him and do a swift sweep bringing him straight down. He just looks at me with this shocked espression
teacher: that was good *grabs my hand* very very good
me: I have done these before, in my old club
teacher: *blank look* ok lets practice with our partners
I left after the next class.

Anyway on-topic, I like the idea of tracking my progress through belts, plus its easier to teach if you have a black belt

LukeyJudo22

Unpossible wrote:

lol, I can imagine a BB standing there hand on check with a shocked look on his face while saying this.
I think Ive mentioned it before but I had a similar expirence in the local judo club
me: Ive done judo before
teacher: what belt are you?
me: Oh I didnt grade it was a college team and we just trained for a year and a half
teacher: oh you need to go into the beginner class to get your yellow belt
me: *pause*.... umm ok I guess (wishing I had turned up to my old instructors other school where I would have been graded)
The lesson passes where all we do is learn to fall
me: are we not grappling today?
teacher: what!!? you are only a beginner, not yellow belt yet
me: but in my last club we were on the mat grappling from the first lesson
Teacher laughs with one or two other judoka standing nearby
teacher: when you are a yellow belt maybe
3 classes later teacher asks people to try a sweep on him (he just showed us it). Everyone in the class gets it wrong in some way and have to drag him down or stand looking blankly at him wondering why it didnt work. I stand up grab him and do a swift sweep bringing him straight down. He just looks at me with this shocked espression
teacher: that was good *grabs my hand* very very good
me: I have done these before, in my old club
teacher: *blank look* ok lets practice with our partners
I left after the next class.

Anyway on-topic, I like the idea of tracking my progress through belts, plus its easier to teach if you have a black belt

Dude,

That judo instructor sounds like a dick who couldnt wrestle his way out of a wet blanket!

Dyr

Jimkel wrote:

Humility and Self Restraint are strong characteristics of the Dragon.

How many dragons were interviewed in that survey?

LukeyJudo22

Wasn't the original idea of belts that there were no coloured belts only white ones. The belts were never washed so they got dirtier n dirtier from the sweat and eventually they were coloured black just from the constant use and sweat? So you could walk into a dojo and see whoever had the dirtiest darkest belt was the one who had the most mat experience.

Clive

cowzerp wrote:

NeiloMac thats part of what bothers me-im a boxer-now doing mma and plan on been able to kick ass till my last days-a big fat instructor is no example to students and can not be taken seriously-practise what you preach..if your 1 of the fat instructors lose the weight and get back to fighting ways-best of luck with it!

That's strange, I got tapped six ways from Sunday by numerous fat instructors in Brazil. If only I had told them that they weren't to be taken seriously. These guys were engineers, university professors etc who trained maybe twice a week for the sheer love of it - not pro fighters.

Especially upsetting may be one guy who was small, fat, old and looked like Cheech Marin. Of course the fact that he was multiple times Rio state champion back in the day would be trumped by his waist size.

Jimkel

Bambi wrote:

How many dragons were interviewed in that survey?

LOL, Hey Don't ask me, I whipped it off a website in an effert to examine Kenpo's philosophy on Grades. It's just symbolism

Nothingcompares

Hi Jimkel,

I'm going to ignore everything you say from henceforth because I feel you comments are purposeless.

Have a nice day.

Jimkel

LukeyJudo22 wrote:

Wasn't the original idea of belts that there were no coloured belts only white ones. The belts were never washed so they got dirtier n dirtier from the sweat and eventually they were coloured black just from the constant use and sweat? So you could walk into a dojo and see whoever had the dirtiest darkest belt was the one who had the most mat experience.

It was the case, But not deliberatly in the beginning I'm sure, Peasents wore clothing usually made from hemp (Resembling a GI) in Okinowa, With a belt to hold the trousers up. After a long time of training in the Forbidden arts of "Te" Their Belt got dirty (After all who washes a belt!?), And indeed did become a symbol of experience.

This I'm sure was one of the things that inspired Kano to develop the Formalised belt system in which the Black belts are the Highest degree.

Actually Black belts, after many years of wear, Begin to turn white again, As the black outer layer wears away, Leaving a rugged and dirty white still with black stiching. I suppose you could read into this as a symbol of coming full circle in an art. White to black and Back to White again.

Jimkel

Now this is a Black Belt which means something
Probably that your obsessed:

the way gichen Funikoshi founder of Shotokan would of had it, most people would never even reach a black belt. He recommended spending at least 3 years on each Kata individually, Hell thats 24 years to reach Black belt by todays standards. Thats only the first group of Katas, 7 in all.

Now considering that there are 27 Katas in Shotokan I think Belts would be dust by the time someone perfected them all, By Funikoshi's standards that would take 81 Years!
Crazy Japs

Jimkel

Nothingcompares wrote:

Hi Jimkel,

I'm going to ignore everything you say from henceforth because I feel you comments are purposeless.

Have a nice day.

In a previous Thread you said you would ignore my posts, Now you say it again. Full of empty promises. Maybe your going for a three strike's and your out of Nothingcompares mental bandwidth kind of thing.

If thats the case Then iv'e got one strike left, So my last foul is a question...

Why Do you feel my comments hold no purpose, I explained quite clearly my opinions, And referenced History and styles, to express my ideas about Black belts. Which was the purpose of this thread I beleive, To get peoples opinions on What a black belt means to them.

What is it about me that just gets on your tits?

Millionaire

I spent a few years in a different kickboxing club that my main one. I did not mentioned I had a baclk belt (though I was a bit rusty as I was out of training for about 2 years).

So I donned the white belt, and trained away. after a few months, my old skills started to return, and the puzzled instructor double graded me to orange belt. LOL!!! I still said nothing, I stayed there for about 2 years, I think I did green belt. but after I refused to grade, and instructor would not figure this out, and was on my case about it. I just trained away, and it was hard training too, and a sort of rough club.

Anyway, my orignial instructor came back to teaching, so when I found out, I went back to him, he improved me greatly, as I sort of hit a plateau in the other place, and I re tested for black under him and got it.

Some say, you were intitled to wear your black belt in the other place, "once a BB always a BB etc" my answer was "no BB when the green belts are hammering the crap out of me in sparring!"

I did drop in on a social call for training a few years later as I got on great with all there, and showed off my new skills! The instructor looked even more confused, and then I disappeared off into the night, and said not a word! ;-)

Right now I prefer skills to belts, but knowing me, if I joined a judo or bjj club, I probably would want to stick at it until I got BB!

loz

cowzerp wrote:

im glad you accept your inferior education-not to worry.:)

Obviously... :rolleyes:

king_of_inismac

I've trained for a long time now, and here's how I look at the "belt system"

Belts are for holding your trousers up, nothing more

and

You are only as good as your last training session/fight.

Martin

Unpossible

That judo instructor sounds like a dick who couldnt wrestle his way out of a wet blanket!

Yeah, he had a huge beer gut and it felt like he was only getting beack into the sport (or that he rarely trained). I dont know what belt colour he had either, his "belt" was thinner than any Ive seen before (almost like rope) and it looked a kind of mustardy green, so it was obviously old and not its origonal colour. Also he only taught the beginners class, the 2 black belts in charge of the main part of the club spoke english pretty well and looked like they were used to rolling.

The last black belt that was teaching my current club was class, after seeing him in the demonstration I thought "I want to be like that, guess I'll join this sport", he left about 6 months after I joined.

Hi Jimkel,

I'm going to ignore everything you say from henceforth because I feel you comments are purposeless.

Have a nice day.

lol, what an insightful post. Why not just use your ignore button?

Giant_Killer

Jimkel wrote:

As a result a person would be well in their 40's before a level above 5th Dan could be reached.

Robert Devane of Martial Arts inc is 5th Dan and he's only in his late 20's\early 30's.

micro-ice

I have been in volved in ma for just over 2 1/2 years now and although
i cant wait to get my bb i know it will only be the beginning.

it was said to me a long time ago that BB just represents that you have attained a level of fitness and understand required to start your training

Roper

Some interesting responses so far. The reason I posted this is because my own club has been going through a bit of an evolution over the last year or so, and the final nail was driven into the coffin recently with the abolition of an adults grading system. Someone said to me in the aftermath of this "well, since you can't get a black belt in your club, nobody is going to want to train there".

Yet, the number of people who've stopped training with us since: 0, diddly, nada, none.

I was wondering as well, to non-martial artists viewing this topic, what the term "Black Belt" implies to you?

cletus

I trained in a Taekwondo club for a short while where we were expected to call the instructor "Instructor (insert name here)" in the pub, and he also expected us to bow to him before leaving the table to buy him a drink, cause you know, he's a black belt

Personaly I have been traininh for 7 0r 8 of the last 10 years in various styles, and when I am asked what belt I am I happily announce my white belt status:D

Roper

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Where do they do that??:eek: Even the most cultish ITF places I've been to weren't that bad.

Oh boy oh boy oh boy Tim, I always thought you had it worse than me but I can see just how wrong I was.:( Actually, the level of adherence to the yessiring and what not varied between clubs and how well you knew people.

Cletus,
I used to train under my best mate of 20 years and had to call him sir, but thankfully, that stopped at the club door (for me anyway). I never used to have to bow when getting him a pint though...