Phil overselling of fresher event

cianclarke

Queueing for Tommy Tiernan for two hours, and then being told to go home. Priceless...

Crash

cianclarke wrote:

Queueing for Tommy Tiernan for two hours, and then being told to go home. Priceless...

Turns out I was on the special backstage guest list, and didn't know, so went drinking instead. ho hum :P

shay_562

Was on the guest list (or more accurately, was offered a spot on it by a friend who didn't want his spot), but gave it away; too tired and pissed off at that stage to want to sit through him. He's good, but he's not that good. Still, boo-urns on behalf of everyone who bought membership and tickets and queued for hours in the rain only to not get in. Completely seperate from any...'affiliations' I may have, I did end up talking to quite a few people who didn't get in, and apparently crowd control was a joke, with most people pushing their way in near the front. For once I'm actually looking forward to TN; I can't wait to hear what the general consensus on the whole thing was.

On the subject of comedians, anyone else see Dave McSavage? Three positive comments above, but everyone I spoke to in person said he was ****.

wowy

They were all adults in the queue, and as such they don't need their hands to be held for them. Everyone was warned to be there early, 6 at the latest being the time that we recommended, and the last person to get in arrived at 6.15, so what more were we to do? If someone is stupid enough to join the queue outside House 6 and still believe that they'll get into the Dining Hall, well then they're pretty dim aren't they? And as regards the crowd control-the top of the queue was well organised, with crash barriers set up all the way to the Chapel steps. It was beyond there that it got a bit messy because people were queueing on all the steps so it bottlenecked there. That was unfortunate, but we couldn't do anything about that.

Bartron Prime

In any event such as that, crowd control will be a nightmare. Like above, separating myself from any 'allegiances' that I may have there is still no reason to accept that it will "get messy" at any point in the queue. For a large event like that, plans should have been made for enormous queues (well done to The Phil for getting him, a great event). I've seen society events where there was no planning made for crowds (anyone remember the infamous Joshua Jackson appearance?) and it was not good. The Dining Hall has a wide enough entrance, you can easily let three people in at a time. To say nothing can be done is slightly disingenuous. Yes, you can't completely stop it being awkward but you can work with security to set up crash barriers in a defined area and arrange a point at which you shut the queue off. Was there pushing? I wasn't at the event so I don't know the full story but there are basics of crowd control. Pushing is a basic no-no. If you push, you should be thrown out of the line within seconds. For an event like that, that everyone in college was deservedly waiting for, you have to be tough. But, as I said, I wasn't there. I'll happily stand corrected on how crowd control for it worked.

wowy wrote:

If someone is stupid enough to join the queue outside House 6 and still believe that they'll get into the Dining Hall, well then they're pretty dim aren't they?

Now this I take serious issue with. "Stupid enough"? They paid good money both to join the society and to see the event. While the onus is on them to arrive early, they have every right to expect the chance to get in. As many of the crowd would have been first years, they mightn't have been aware of the capacity of the Dining Hall (I was shocked to find out in April that the Exam Hall holds 406 people for an event). Did it occur to you that they may have been busy up to that point? Also, the length of a queue can be deceiving. You stated there was a bottleneck which gave the queue the appearance of being longer than it was. But my main beef here is you tacitly calling members of the Society "pretty dim". That is just not on. It sounds as if you're involved with The Phil. As I know most of Phil Council fairly well (pretty cool bunch of people and great craic, even if I exist in a different ideological sphere) I don't think they'd agree with or be pleased by your assertion. Societies exist for the sole purpose of serving the interests of their members. To call them "stupid" for wanting to attend an event that they paid money for, money which benefits the Society, is a very narrow attitude to have. Yeah, they should have showed up earlier. But they have a right to hope to get in. It must be remembered that the members of the society own that society. The society exists at their behest through their membership and must only focus on how best they can serve the interests of their members. I believe that what you said dangerously ignores that and verges on the patronising and condescending. Like I said, not a message that most of the people I know in The Phil would have any truck with.

Sorry for the rant. Just something that gets my goat. Once again, fair play and well done to The Phil on Thursday. They had a very good week. And the Slushees were inspired. Special thanks to that MC who "Blue Me" on a regular basis.

Crash

I'm still amazed (and slightly annoyed) that the other name on the gig, that being the SU, were happy enough to let yee pull the club philth trick. it was underhanded and petty giving priority to those who had tickets for that event.

easy way to sell out an event, what?

Bartron Prime

Call me petty, but it feels like karma for the S.U. when it comes to events. But don't the S.U. get a cut of the Club Philth ticket receipts? It was in their best interests for it to sell out. That's probably how they weighed it up. That, or they weren't told that would be done. Who knows?

Were you at Philth Neil? I didn't have to queue for this society night. Oh the irony. Oh and the kebab. And the hangover too.

John

Did The Phil make people buy tickets for Tommy Tiernan. Number one, why you'd pay to see such a blight on comedy I'll never know. Number two, surely you'd only sell as many tickets as the capacity of the dining hall. Why oversell a gig? I'm fairly certain that's illegal.

Bartron Prime

You had to be both a member of The Phil and buy a ticket for Club Philth to be allowed into Tommy Tiernan. The Dining Hall does indeed only have a capacity of 450, while, afaik, 1500 Club Philth tickets were sold. However, The Phil would be entitled to say that these tickets were not specifically for Tiernan and people who bought them may not have wanted to go. They were Club Philth tickets, not Tommy Tiernan tickets. That's probably their way around it. If it's an issue. I really don't know all that much about how they organised it to be honest. That's what I heard.

John

Hmmm, that still stinks to me. They should have just left it to the first 450 tickets sold or else told people at the back of the queue not to bother queueing. But of course, The Phil are callous trolls living under the bridge that is the GMB.

wowy

Firstly, we took on 3 extra security attendants to work the event, and as I've already stated Barton, we had set up a number of crash barriers. You say you weren't there, so don't say as fact that 3 people can enter the dining hall at once cos that's just bull. A situation would have arisen where the door would have become very congested, and that would have been dangerous. We knew what we were doing at the door.

I apologise for my comment. In retrospect it was very stupid of me to say. However, what I was trying to get at was that all week when tickets were being sold people were being warned to be there very early. There wasn't anything else that we can do. What annoyed me was that these people had been warned, but then when they didn't get in would then give out yards about the Phil, or as some person did, put a big "The Phil sucks cock" on the ground. We did our best to let as many people in as possible. We moved to the Dining Hall to cater for as many people as possible, but inevitably a lot of people were going to be disappointed.

As regards the tickets, we had an idea that a lot of people would show up without tickets for club Philth, and may get in at the expense of people who had bought tickets, which we didn't consider all that fair. Club Philth has sold out for the last 2 years, so we weren't concerned about needing desperate measures to offload tickets. Think of it this way-you're a fresher; you've bought your membership and your club Philth ticket, and then you learn that TT is on. So you queue for a bit but don;t get in, but a bunch of SF and JS members get in, but they haven't been around all week, the event wasn't geared toward them, and they had no tickets or intention of going to Philth. If I were that frehser I'd be pretty pissed. That's why we did it.

xeduCat

Good explanation re: security and queuing.

However, one thing that occurs to me is why should people wanting to go to Event A be required to buy a ticket for Event B? Although they may not be in the majority, there are of course some freshers who would have no interest in attending a club event - such as for cultural/religious, residential (i.e. curfew/last bus/whatever) or age (u-18) reasons. If a society wants to be inclusive and accessible, then perhaps buying a ticket to a late event in a licensed venue shouldn't be the only way to attend an early event in a dry one?

shay_562

wowy wrote:

If someone is stupid enough to join the queue outside House 6 and still believe that they'll get into the Dining Hall, well then they're pretty dim aren't they?

Had to second Bartley's comments about this part. I didn't even know where the Dining Hall was for my first few months of college. Hell, even after a year in college, I didn't know the capacity of that place 'til one of your MCs told me and I certainly couldn't have guessed how far back in the queue would get in.

Bartron_Prime wrote:

It sounds as if you're involved with The Phil. As I know most of Phil Council fairly well (pretty cool bunch of people and great craic, even if I exist in a different ideological sphere) I don't think they'd agree with or be pleased by your assertion.

...look closely at the username. Think of said Council's first names.

crash_000 wrote:

I'm still amazed (and slightly annoyed) that the other name on the gig, that being the SU, were happy enough to let yee pull the club philth trick. it was underhanded and petty giving priority to those who had tickets for that event.

The SU? Underhanded? Shocker. That twat Quinn was wandering around Front Square on Monday telling Freshers to join the Phil for the Tommy Tiernan event, for whatever reason (did they get a cut of the tickets like Bartron said?) they were desperate for people to go to it.

wowy wrote:

Think of it this way-you're a fresher; you've bought your membership and your club Philth ticket, and then you learn that TT is on. So you queue for a bit but don;t get in, but a bunch of SF and JS members get in, but they haven't been around all week, the event wasn't geared toward them, and they had no tickets or intention of going to Philth. If I were that frehser I'd be pretty pissed.

Of course, the reverse of this is that you've joined the society with the promise of seeing Tommy Tiernan for free, then been told that, in actual fact, you have to buy tickets (that you may not want or need) to even have a one-in-three chance of getting in, then after queuing in the rain for nearly 2 hours get turned away. If I were that fresher, I'd be pretty pissed. Why not, as suggested above, cut off the queue after 400-or-so people? Surely someone could have anticipated the huge numbers of people who'd be turned away, and how bad that might look for the society?

I should reiterate that I'm not saying this because I want to start some big Phil/Hist argument; I'm saying this as a disgruntled ordinary member of the Phil, much in the same way as I regularly bitch about the SU or other things that irked me.

Bartron Prime

wowy wrote:

Firstly, we took on 3 extra security attendants to work the event, and as I've already stated Barton, we had set up a number of crash barriers. You say you weren't there, so don't say as fact that 3 people can enter the dining hall at once cos that's just bull. A situation would have arisen where the door would have become very congested, and that would have been dangerous. We knew what we were doing at the door.

As xeducat said, good explanation. I was just wondering is all. Having run security for events last year I was just curious. I know how difficult it is so I was just enquiring. Some people had said it wasn't effective so I just wondered. You can get two lines through the door of the GMB so it is reasonable to expect the same can be done at the Dining Hall. It has a wider entrance so it is posible, though probably not for three. I didn't mean to suggest that you didn't know what you were doing, just asking what you had done. It was along the lines of "Oh, you didn't do Method X? Well here's what I found worked, if it helps". I apologise if that didnt come across too well. I had heard there were some problems so I was just checking. The Steward runs security for those events right? He's a good guy. Nothing like a baptism of fire though. I had it last year. Good times.

wowy wrote:

I apologise for my comment. In retrospect it was very stupid of me to say. However, what I was trying to get at was that all week when tickets were being sold people were being warned to be there very early. There wasn't anything else that we can do. What annoyed me was that these people had been warned, but then when they didn't get in would then give out yards about the Phil, or as some person did, put a big "The Phil sucks cock" on the ground. We did our best to let as many people in as possible. We moved to the Dining Hall to cater for as many people as possible, but inevitably a lot of people were going to be disappointed.

Glad that is all cleared up. Again I know what it's like telling people to be there early (Ralph Fiennes anyone?). Last year, I had to tell my two best friends to go away as they had arrived late for an event (I'm only 5 ft 7 and quite wee yet I had to play bouncer to hundreds of people. Gotta love Chapter XI of The Hist Laws ). It does suck when people inevitably criticise you for your event being popular. The problem is that Trinity just doesn't have any venue capable of large demand events. Last year they just wouldn't give the Dining Hall out and the Exam Hall is very expensive to use. Telling them to be early is all you can do. I just thought you were criticising them for actually wanting to attend the event. That's a very different kettle of fish. But, you weren't, so it's all good.

wowy wrote:

As regards the tickets, we had an idea that a lot of people would show up without tickets for club Philth, and may get in at the expense of people who had bought tickets, which we didn't consider all that fair. Club Philth has sold out for the last 2 years, so we weren't concerned about needing desperate measures to offload tickets. Think of it this way-you're a fresher; you've bought your membership and your club Philth ticket, and then you learn that TT is on. So you queue for a bit but don;t get in, but a bunch of SF and JS members get in, but they haven't been around all week, the event wasn't geared toward them, and they had no tickets or intention of going to Philth. If I were that frehser I'd be pretty pissed. That's why we did it.

Maybe it's the cold virus I have messng with my head, but I don't quite get that. The two events are unconnected. Sure, they're both part of 'Phil Thursday' but not inextricably linked. There are people who only wanted to se TT and not go to Club Philth and vice versa (which is what I did). Fresher's Week as a name is a misnomer. Anyone, whatever year, who wants to be part of a society has to join in Freshers' Week, membership lasts for one year only. To me it seems a little unfair to make people buy a ticket for one event to see another. Like how the FAI made you but tickets to se a bunch of crappy friendlies just to get a ticket to see Brazil.

cianclarke

wowy wrote:

They were all adults in the queue, and as such they don't need their hands to be held for them. Everyone was warned to be there early, 6 at the latest being the time that we recommended, and the last person to get in arrived at 6.15, so what more were we to do? If someone is stupid enough to join the queue outside House 6 and still believe that they'll get into the Dining Hall, well then they're pretty dim aren't they? And as regards the crowd control-the top of the queue was well organised, with crash barriers set up all the way to the Chapel steps. It was beyond there that it got a bit messy because people were queueing on all the steps so it bottlenecked there. That was unfortunate, but we couldn't do anything about that.

I was standing there from half five waiting, but by the time another eighty or so people had just hopped the barriers further up the queue it was too late.
Also, "crowd control"? There were barriers, that was it. I didn't mind the pushing, but for a small person it was just plain dangerous. "Crowd control" my arse.

Bartron Prime

cianclarke wrote:

I was standing there from half five waiting, but by the time another eighty or so people had just hopped the barriers further up the queue it was too late.
Also, "crowd control"? There were barriers, that was it. I didn't mind the pushing, but for a small person it was just plain dangerous. "Crowd control" my arse.

That was what I was afraid might have happened. I understand how difficult it is (I made a decision last year on queuing that actually made it easier for non-members. That was changed after 10 minutes.) to police a line but every attempt has to be made. As I said, zero tolerance. The Phil has seventeen council members so there should have been at least thirteen free to police the queue. You hop it, you get thrown out. You push, you get thrown out. You give lip, you get thrown out. I became fairly hard-line on crowd control because you can't let a few people spoil the event for the rest of your members. That, and college security will back you up. Again, I understand that The Phil did make a good effort and I appreciate how no-one who didn't get in would be satisfied but you have to be over-zealous on these things. If the capacity is 450 plan for 800 arriving. That way, everyone can relax when nothing happens. Hmm, do you reckon there's a chance I'm a little highly strung and a worrier? :rolleyes:

Boston

The phil really come out looking like scum. Did you tell people that there would only be 450 places at the gig? You told people to turn up early but did you say the gig was over "sold" by over a thousand people? You then go onto to call people stupid because they didn't realise that they where being ****ed.

wowy

Yes we did tell everyone there was only 450 places. As regards there should have been 13 council members out there, they were inside setting up the seats, or else they were in the GMB setting up the reception, or else they were around doing other things that needed to be done-literally there wasn't anybody to spare-which is why we had the 3 attendants to work the queue. And if I had gone out there, counted up to 450, told the rest to go home, that would have been taken as a guarantee to the 1st 450 that they were getting in. What if they didn't get in for whatever reason (skipping, counting error, etc). That woulda been a whole lot worse.

I can very safely assume that few people who are posting in this thread have ever organised events of this scale. Ever. Let alone 3 in a week. It's not as easy as you all (excepting those who have done said-you know yourselves) seem it to be. Despite one's best efforts, not everything is guaranteed to run smoothly, and not everyone is guaranteed to be happy. I won't apologise for that, because it's just the way that it is.

Boston

Yes yes you did nothing wrong, and did every thing perfectly.

wowy

Sigh. Can't win, can I? If you have a serious problem with how the Phil is run, come to Private Business anytime before a debate and ask a question. Assuming of course, you're a paid up member and have your membership card. (If you don't, you can get a new one this week, provided you're on the database.)

Boston

You got to love the brace neck on you. Pay you to complain about you. Yea sure.

wowy

If you paid for 4 year membership, you don't have to pay again. Obviously. And surely it would be more appropriate to complain during Private Business, when it can be recorded and dealt with. As opposed to sitting at a computer bitching about The Phil. Unless, of course, that's how you get your kicks. In which case, each to their own........

shay_562

LiouVille wrote:

You got to love the brace neck on you. Pay you to complain about you. Yea sure.

To be fair, if you're not a member, then no, you don't have the right to complain about them. Why would you?

Wowy - you're right. I've never organised anything of this scale before. But the Phil has, as have the SU (who seem to have been co-running it) - there are numerous people around the GMB who have experience of running something this big, so suggesting inexperience is an excuse is disingenuous. Hell, you yourself point out that you were organising major guests only a few days before this event. I'd have expected better than a shoulder shrug and a "**** happens" WRT complaints of pushing etc in the queue - that kind of **** is serious, and people can very easily get injured when a crowd of 800+ starts pulling that kind of stuff. If you're having an event that big, you need appropriate security (and clearly 3 wasn't appropriate); if you don't want to pay for security, don't hold the event.

I've gotta say, I'm a little disappointed that the Phil's attitude about this seems to be "tough ****, you should have known better" and "it was only €5" (based on talking to a decent chunk of the Council/helpers on Thursday/Friday) - that's a pretty crappy way to treat people who have ust paid you a tenner for the privilege of being in your society. I won't be raising this at Private Business (for obvious reasons), but I sincerely hope someone else does.

Bartron Prime

wowy wrote:

I can very safely assume that few people who are posting in this thread have ever organised events of this scale. Ever.

You're right. When I organised events, they tended to be with the expectation of larger audiences. I know what I'm talking about here. It seems that while you did try your best, there were flaws in the system. Accept it. It didn't go smoothly. Rather than complain that people should cut you some slack, improve on your plans for the next time you have an event that size. Also, if you have 3 events that size in a week then surely by Thursday you should have had the system worked out? Also, it only takes 2 MCs to set up a reception and a further 2 to set up seats. Been there, done that, got the newspaper coverage.

I'm not here to Phil bash. As I said, it was a great event, you were good banter in FW and the slushees rocked. I just raised what I thought were valid questions. I was hoping that I was giving some advice if you wanted it on how to run these things. I experienced problems for the first event when I ran it so I thought you might want to hear what I learnt. Also, yes you have to be a member (technically) for PB but that came across really snide. I should have that Gold Card around somewhere.

wowy

The inexperience was a reference to those on this thread telling us how it should have been done. The SU had nothing to do with TT. The Phil's attitide isn't that drastic. I'm that blunt on this thread because firstly it's not official Phil line (because we're not dim), and secondly because there already exists an anti-Phil sentiment on this board so I couldn't be bothered molly-coddling my words to appease users such as LiouVille, who haven't really an idea about the Phil, but still feel qualified enough to bitch about us, say that it's full of X, Y and Z, and would never be seen dead anywhere near a debate, but simultaneously use our conversation room, the snooker rooms, or show up to our celebrity interviews. But they still hate the Phil, of course.

wowy

And Bartron, none of my remarks were geared towards you. I know your background, and I appreciate the (insightful, well-thought out) comments you've made here. Just so you know.

Bartron Prime

Aw, you sweetheart you. Come here ya big lug. Glad to be of help. Once you're not an ex-Philboy who lives near the Burlington (you know who I mean) then I'm here to help.

I'd be careful about what you say in response to Phil criticism though. While I know only the President can issue the official line, you're still a Council member and thus people will assume that what you say represents the majority thinking inside The Phil.

My belief is that people will always dislike The Hist/The Phil. The onus is on the societies to change that viewpoint. They exist to serve college, not personal ambition (I had no gain from my year. Hell, as Shay can testify, it nearly killed me.) and people who use the GMB to further their 'career' shouldn't be allowed on Committee/Council.

Wowy, I'd still advise being civil to users of this thread. Yeah, they might have a bias. But most are still likely to be members. Also, Thursday had its flaws, I could see excessive gaps and not enough fences from a quick glance. Best thing is admit it wasn't perfect, state tht you need to be there really early to get in, and plan your arse off for the next one. Cheers for the compliment. Can I just ask, what's the Phil procedure for questions again (I can't remember and I think it's fair to let others know should they wish to ask a question)?

Boston

shay_562 wrote:

To be fair, if you're not a member, then no, you don't have the right to complain about them. Why would you?

Their a collge society, funded through the college. Their public events reflect on this university as a whole. Where do you get the attitude that I should be OK with what the phil have done simply because I wasn't one of the people ****ed over or put at risk? I go to this university like,

Also, Mr wowy, I don't beleive for a second you told the freshers that the gig had limited places or was over sold. I believe you said arrive early. I base this on the fact that I've been to more then one freshers week several and it's standard policy for both the Phil and The Hist to advertise stuff they can't deliever on and nver mention the word limited.

shay_562

Bartron_Prime wrote:

I had no gain from my year. Hell, as Shay can testify, it nearly killed me.

Very true. We're still relatively certain that it caused irreversible mental damage.

wowy wrote:

I'm that blunt on this thread because firstly it's not official Phil line (because we're not dim), and secondly because there already exists an anti-Phil sentiment on this board so I couldn't be bothered molly-coddling my words to appease users such as LiouVille, who haven't really an idea about the Phil, but still feel qualified enough to bitch about us, say that it's full of X, Y and Z, and would never be seen dead anywhere near a debate, but simultaneously use our conversation room, the snooker rooms, or show up to our celebrity interviews. But they still hate the Phil, of course.

Point taken. I do appreciate that it's crappy having to listen to incessant bitching from people who are still perfectly happy to show up when there's free beer or a cool guest. Out of curiousity, what is the official Phil line? Or how might one go about finding that out? (since, as I've stated above, I can't exactly wander into Private Business and start bitching you guys out).

Edit:

LiouVille wrote:

Their a collge society, funded through the college. Their public events reflect on this university as a whole. Where do you get the attitude that I should be OK with what the phil have done simply because I wasn't one of the people ****ed over or put at risk? I go to this university like

They're primarily funded through membership, advertising and events like Club Philth (though Wowy can refute that part much better than I can). And I'm not saying you should be OK with it; by all means, complain to an outside source (TN, Record, here). But to go along to a private meeting of the society and complain, membership of the society would surely be a prerequisite? If you're not a part of it, why should you get a say in how their events are run? The "reflects on the whole university" argument is bollox - I didn't read the paper on Friday, so I can't say for certain that the front page headline wasn't "University Philisophical Society in Philth Tickets Shocker!", but I'd bet a pretty decent sum of money on it.

I base this on the fact that I've been to more then one freshers week several and it's standard policy for both the Phil and The Hist to advertise stuff they can't deliever on and nver mention the word limited.

No, it's not. In fact, standard policy is the exact opposite of that; if you expect demand for an event to be big enough that you need to issue such warnings, it's in your interest to do so - it stops a) large crowds turning up right before an event starts and b) ugly scenes like the one the other night.

Bartron Prime

You have a right to hold an opinion and complain to others about The Hist/Phil yes. As for making an official complaint via Question Time in Private Business, both CSC and both Societies' laws state you have to be a member. It's like voting in a general election. You can say what you want, but can only participate if registered. Why not email the Phil President/Hist Auditor if you have a problem with either society?

As for delivering things, speaking only from experience within The Hist, we approached last year's FW with everything on our stand due to go ahead as planned. Then guests cancelled or other unforseeable events. You can't predict what will happen. I will accept that there should be more openness about space and time constraints. So..

Exam Hall: 406 spaces
Dining Hall: 450 spaces
Ed Burke: 400 spaces
GMB Chamber: 275 spaces (300 with permission for standing)
Hist Convo Room: 175 spaces
Phil Convo Room: 125 spaces (current seating arrangements)

I am positive this list is available from the Buildings Office on request.

Boston

shay_562 wrote:

They're primarily funded through membership, advertising and events like Club Philth (though Wowy can refute that part much better than I can). And I'm not saying you should be OK with it; by all means, complain to an outside source (TN, Record, here).

By all means let them **** off out of trinity. The majority would be happy.

But to go along to a private meeting of the society and complain, membership of the society would surely be a prerequisite? If you're not a part of it, why should you get a say in how their events are run?

They run their events in trinity, why shouldn't I have a say. If they ran it outside of trinity maybe you would have a point, maybe. Also I never suggested i had a right as a non member to go to a private meeting. Wowy tried to assert that only members can complain, since the only valid medium is this "private meeting".

The "reflects on the whole university" argument is bollox - I didn't read the paper on Friday, so I can't say for certain that the front page headline wasn't "University Philisophical Society in Philth Tickets Shocker!", but I'd bet a pretty decent sum of money on it.

And if somebody had been hurt through the lack of crowd control would you say the same? No you wouldn't.

No, it's not. In fact, standard policy is the exact opposite of that; if you expect demand for an event to be big enough that you need to issue such warnings, it's in your interest to do so - it stops a) large crowds turning up right before an event starts and b) ugly scenes like the one the other night.

They over sell stuff every year. In fact I do remember back in my day Hist (which really is the same as the phil) giving out lunch tokens for food they where well aware was already gone. There is no way they said to the freshers "actually before you give us your membership fee, you've a 1 in 3 chance of getting in". And sure why would they, as wowy said, they would have to have been stupid to expect what they paid for from the phil.

DemonOfTheFall

Bartron Prime wrote:

You had to be both a member of The Phil and buy a ticket for Club Philth to be allowed into Tommy Tiernan. The Dining Hall does indeed only have a capacity of 450, while, afaik, 1500 Club Philth tickets were sold. However, The Phil would be entitled to say that these tickets were not specifically for Tiernan and people who bought them may not have wanted to go. They were Club Philth tickets, not Tommy Tiernan tickets. That's probably their way around it. If it's an issue. I really don't know all that much about how they organised it to be honest. That's what I heard.

Any person who I saw buying a Philth ticket for Tommy Tiernan had it clearly explained to them that the ticket was for philth not for tommy tiernan and it's your tough beans if you're not early enough for tiernan.

Bartron Prime

Signs also clearly stated that a Club Philth ticket was a prerequisite for getting into TT. They linked the two events in that you could go to Club Philth without going to TT but not vice versa. As I've said, people should have known the demand would be high. However, they are legitimately entitled to expect that they had a decent shot at getting in. There should have been signs emphasising that you would need to queue very early. I also don't think the 'tough beans' is the right attitude to take do you? Once a member gives money to a society, they own that society. The society exists solely to serve them. It's the same with the S.U. So I think the policy was a little disingenuous.

Liou, the problem in past years with limited lunch was resource constraints but it's getting better every year. They couldn't issue everyone with a voucher. Last year we made it clear that lunch runs for a set period and that we only had a limited supply but it was available all week. Free stuff is offered as a bonus, not as an incentive to join. Membership is sold on the basis of the society's activities. But you're right. It needs to be made more open and obvious as to the supply available to the society. Most GMB people will completely agree with you on everything you say. Every attempt is made to get as much stuff in as possible (witness the phil/hist fresher packs) but neither organisation has unlimited resources. Surely the money is best spent on running activities that actually benefit the members?

As for complaining, as I've said, complaints can be emailed. If they don't respond promptly, go to CSC or TN. What Shay means is that active change, as in the proposal of new laws/structures can only be done by members within the organisation. The greatest change comes from within, not without. This is surely reasonable. The Hist operates a Suggestion Box so drop something in there. If you don't want to join, don't. There are still ways of getting societies to hear your opinions. But active membership is how you force change.

DemonOfTheFall

Oh yeah, I agree. It's not the right attitude to have, but I'm saying that that is how they warned people about being there early. "Be there very early or you won't get in" was what I heard numerous times around their stand and rooms.

Bartron Prime

Bartron Prime wrote:

But active membership is how you force change.

One method which has not been mentioned - the Capitation Committee. Specifically if there were problems with events not confined between one capitated body. Not the most effective (as it meets around 4 or 5 times a year), but a possible avenue.

What is required is for an e-mail to be sent to the Senior Dean, though I'd assume he'd ask whether other avenues have been exhausted...

Bartron Prime

I still believe that the best way is for the membership to get involved. The great strength of The Hist/The Phil and indeed every society in college is that they have a body of highly motivated members that goes beyond the committee/council. From my experience, this group will lose no time in acting if they believe the society has overstepped its bounds. The Hist/The Phil both have structures which allow any member to propose a change to the laws of the society which is then democratically voted upon. For serious breaches go to the college authorities but I'm speaking in general terms as how someone may want to change something. There is also CSC which would take a dim view of any antics (not suggesting that Thursday was such a case, just mentioning an avenue).

Tricity Bendix

Bartron Prime wrote:

I still believe that the best way is for the membership to get involved. The great strength of The Hist/The Phil and indeed every society in college is that they have a body of highly motivated members that goes beyond the committee/council. From my experience, this group will lose no time in acting if they believe the society has overstepped its bounds. The Hist/The Phil both have structures which allow any member to propose a change to the laws of the society which is then democratically voted upon. For serious breaches go to the college authorities but I'm speaking in general terms as how someone may want to change something. There is also CSC which would take a dim view of any antics (not suggesting that Thursday was such a case, just mentioning an avenue).

Hmm. Don't know about that. I would have very little interest in either debating or organising debates, but if I went to something like the Tiernan gig and things were as bad as people are claiming they are or if I was peeved at the way the tickets were allocated, telling me that I should join up to Phil and complain about it at one of their society meetings would make me pretty mad. I was at a less-than-fantastically organised Hist and Cards event recently. When I saw the lack of organisation, I didn't think to myself "gosh, I really should come along to their next meeting and set them straight." I really couldn't care less about the internal dynamics of either group. I only care about the end product being enjoyable for me, the consumer.

Bartron Prime

I meant from the point of view of over-arching structural changes to the way the society operates, not making a complaint. To complain, email the President/Auditor and go further if you don't get a prompt response or go to Private Business and ask a question. I'm talking about how you go about reforming the society and the way it manages its affairs. If I don't like the PDs (and I don't) and want to make myself heard, I'll go the party clinic of my local PD Td (Mary Harney). But if I want to see the party's structure changed, then I need to become involved. Simple no?

As for the Hist/CardSoc event, it followed the rules. You have to be a member of the relevant society to gain access to an event. That's the way it is. Also, only CardSoc are allowed organise card events so you had to join to take part in the tournaments. And technically you have to be a member of The Hist to enter the Conversation Room (same with The Phil and its Conversation Room), especially for an event. It wasn't poorly organised, it was made clear to everyone on the door you had to join both. They are the rules throughout college. As for why you didn't win anything, that's because you're not good at cards

Tricity Bendix

Bartron Prime wrote:

I'm talking about how you go about reforming the society and the way it manages its affairs.

But is anyone else talking about this?

As for the Hist/CardSoc event, it followed the rules. You have to be a member of the relevant society to gain access to an event. That's the way it is. Also, only CardSoc are allowed organise card events so you had to join to take part in the tournaments. And technically you have to be a member of The Hist to enter the Conversation Room (same with The Phil and its Conversation Room), especially for an event. It wasn't poorly organised, it was made clear to everyone on the door you had to join both. They are the rules throughout college. As for why you didn't win anything, that's because you're not good at cards

I'm a bit confused. The reason why I thought it was poorly organised was because there was no one there who knew how to work the keg. Or pull a pint. And also because I was left looking after the bar for a while, Thus earning the nickname 'gay barman'. Apparently I had too much rythm to be straight.

I had no problem joining both socs.

We've gone completely off topic.

Bartron Prime

There was a discussion earlier on about complaining about a society event and making a difference and about having to be a member. I was just trying to elaborate the distinction.

Oh right. I didn't know about the keg thing. Yeah, there were some technical difficulties with it. I think when you in an MC had been sent to get someone to fix it. I got you misunderstood. My bad.

Don't you hate that? Must all straight men be meat-killing sport watching assholes who dislike cheesey music and shiny things? I'm not that at all. I'm just an asshole.

Azureus

jus a freshers opinion on this-despite buying tickets for club philth-which i had no interest in going to-and waiting around in the rain for two hours, i WASNT pissed off at the end of it (even though i REALLY wanted to see tommy tiernan)

I was there from six oclock, the guy who sold me the ticket told me to be there from about six or half. He explained about buying club philth tickets to give people with them priority,he told me the capacity of the dining hall, and i was told prepare to be dissappointed because they had sold roughly 1500 philth tickets. i was left under no illusions as to my chances of getting in, so at the end of the day it was luck of the draw and being there early enough.

A fair amount of people skipped the queue and stuff which was fairly frustrating, but to be expected. im assuming everybody else was made as aware of the situation as i was so i really dont see why people would be majorly annoyed!

Crash

See Bartley, didnt I tell you i'd be more than willing to come up and help pull pints? pff

oh wait, it might have been darren. thats what people get for not taking advantage of me :P

Bartron Prime

You said you'd be willing to come upstairs and pull my sister Neil. Not the same thing. Still, you got me into Histeria (Don't get me started on that) and pulled pints of beer so you have something going for you. I insist we drink beer/cheap cheap wine in each other's houses in New Square.

Actually Neil, what they get is a clean bill of sexual health. Ow! You just got served!

Crash

Bartron Prime wrote:

I insist we drink beer/cheap cheap wine in each other's houses in New Square.

will your sister be there?

Bartron Prime

No. She has class. Have you seen the wallpaper in my place?

Crash

Probably the same as mine anyhow, back on topic.

Bartron Prime

Exactly, so no Bartley's sister for you.

Azureus wrote:

He explained about buying club philth tickets to give people with them priority

This I don't get. You had to buy Club Philth tickets to get in. It was a requirement, not a priority. The queue was first come first served right? If they had numbered the tickets and only allowed the first 450 purcahsers of Club Philth tickets in, sure, that's a way of making it work. But they didn't. I'm still confused as to why Club Philth tickets were necessary. They offered no advantage over having just a Phil membership card only system. And there weren't security fences all the way. It was actually just that red and white security tape for most of it. That's as secure as an American journalist in Sadr City. I believe there are lessons The Phil can learn and the next time they have a sell-out event (which is probably soon) everything will run smoothly.

Attractive Nun

Off topic technically, but this can't be as bad as the comedy society sending me to that disaster of a cabaret in the laughter lounge. Dear me...

On topic, I showed up for TT pretty late, didn't even realise you had to have a club Philith ticket or anything, took one look at the queue and went to the pub. As wrong as the Phil were for overselling access to the event, I still think people should have realised they weren't going to get in (I'm a JF btw).

CmcC

Firstly, on the keg at the Hist/Card thing. I was the person who set it up, who owns it and who was coming back at half seven to distribute pints at the casino night. Unfortunately there was a reception after trad soc thing and when I had got back from dinner I lost the plot because firstly pints were being given out and secondly because the tap had been broken by others. A keg had been given out by then and I was pissed about pints being given out early, but also the fact that people have a habit of just going up to it and trying to pour their own.

That was what happened, apologies.

Secondly I have no idea what LiouVille is on about regards hist lunch vouchers in the past. Lunch was given out every day this week from 1-2 and Ive never seen such ungratefullness in members before, people would just grab all they could without a please or a thank you. But nearly everyone got something everyday. Free stuff has a habit of disappearing early.

Problems have arisen at events in the past but generally most people get into hist debates, membership or not.
Problems arose last year with capacity crowds at the Peter Stringfellow, Abortion and N.Ireland debates in the first three weeks and when a large crowd congregrates we try to ensure already paid up members get in first, otherwise if its a normal week people can just walk in, members or not.
After capacity constraints at Ralph Fiennes that Bartley mentioned, we reviewed our system to ensure that in future members are always given priority.
For major events that will attract capacity crowds the Hist has the ability in future to organise online registration for free tickets on the website that will be activated at publisied times. This is the system that would ensure fairness for all.

I think the general consensus is that it was wrong to make people buy Philth tickets to ensure entry. I don't have much truck with that consensus but it was a clever and cynical way to ensure a sold out event. The way it has been in the past for SU/society events is a 50/50 split on profits. The posters saying entry would be assurred only with tickets went up on Wed/Thurs morning.

Also, complaints can be aired in Phil Private business but that won't get you far. It was an event organised and held in College. It is legitimate to complain to College, security or CSC over a society's advertising methods, arrangements on the night and the general problems of 500 people blocking front sq. As much as the Phil may not like it they are accountable to college and the general college body.

Anyway, Fair dues to them for packing out the dininghall and selling all their tickets.

Dave3x

CmcC has a pretty good understanding of this. Although it wasn't something I looked into, I understand that the Phil changed its tune somewhat as they realised how much of a royal pain this thing was going to be. Plus, 'priority seating' (which is certainly how the event was advertised early in the week) kind of implies 'seating' of some kind, right? And in all honesty, having to go to Club Philth to see Tommy is a pain in the ass for those of us who prefer the pub scene to an overcrowded club.

I think the main problem is the Phil's official line is "We did our best, so you can't really blame us". While this is true, and pretty reasonable, you'll always get a better success rate with "We screwed up. Sorry. We'll try harder next time."

I'm saying this of course as a fully paid member. Just so you know.

Bartron Prime

I'd largely agree with what Cathal and Dave3x have said, other then to say that I support the consensus that making people buy Club Philth tickets was wrong. I just don't understand why it was deemed necessary. I see their logic as to why they wanted to do that but it in no way benefited the members, as those who wanted to go to Club Philth would anyway. I also agree with Dave3x, it would have put some people off seeing TT. Also, by gum, I had the admission system down perfectly by the Abortion Debate Cathal so there.

It is always difficult to maintain absolute efficiency, calm and a functioning crowd control system in the event of a large crowd that exceeds the maximum capacity. Nobody can dispute that. Also, the Phil Steward did try very hard to ensure that there would be no problems. But I also think The Phil should accept that there were problems and failings and move on. Hell, the Gold Medal debate with Peter Stringellow was not my finest of crowd control moments. But I learned from it and things were a lot smoother from then on in. It's at this point that I should point out that "smoother" does not mean "less stressful". As Cathal can testify, things worked well but I still went around like I was having an aneurysm. The point is, it is very difficult for any society to ensure that everything will go perfectly yet it is incumbent on all societies to do the very best they can. They also have a responsibility to admit when things didn't go according to plan, apologise and adjust the plans accordingly. I can guarantee that the Phil Steward has probably already looked at how to make things work better for their next big event. An online ticket system, as Cathal suggests, would be a good idea. Unfortunately, The Hist website didn't have the capacity last year for such a feature and there was no time to put it in there.

All in all, the main points as I see them are The Phil's seeming refusal to accept that not everything went perfectly on Thursday and the decision to link TT to Club Philth tickets. Thursday was a very good event. While I wasn't at TT I did end up going to Club Philth and enjoyed it (especially that 3 am kebab). I don't agree with how if you wanted to go to TT you were "locked in" to going to Club Philth as well. Was there no seating in the Dining Hall? Well, standing room would be the best way of getting 450 people into it I suppose. Also, Dave3x (if that is your real name), I accept The Phil gave the crowd control a real good shot but most people are saying it fell short of what most people would have expected. But they're smart guys so it should all be good in the future.