Do you hide your Atheism?

Dave!

I recently bought Richard Dawkins' new book, and I've noticed that I've actually started to make an effort to HIDE the book, for fear that my family might find out that I'm an atheist! :eek: Like I'd leave it on a table and then realise what I've done and go hide it in my room or something.

Religion, etc., is not something that's discussed in my house. It's not that they're all strict Catholics, but it's just something that's not done. It's kind of a taboo subject, and I suspect that it's the same in alot of Irish households. I wouldn't say it'd "bring shame" on the family, but it'd just be wierd

My close friends know and alot of not-so-close friends, cos I've had discussions with them about it, and sometimes wild drunken debates

So what about ye? Are you a closet-Atheist, or do you sing it from the rooftops?

MrJoeSoap

I don't hide my books or anything like that, but I don't go around broadcasting my atheism. I'm fairly sure my immediate family are all aware of it, and a few of my close friends.

In between a "closet" and "singing" atheist I suppose!

aidan24326

DaveMcG, why should you hide or be ashamed of what you believe in? Now fair enough, there's no need to shove such things in people's faces or make a song and dance of it, but no need to be hiding it away either. After all your family, and other religious believers would not try to hide the fact that they believe in absurd fantasies of heaven, angels and happy ever after. Your viewpoint is the rational one. Too many of us non-believers feel we should pussyfoot around other people's beliefs in any context that could be deemed 'religious'. Why? Perhaps Richard Dawkins is right and a bit less tolerance of such wanton stupidity is called for. Be proud that you have had the intelligence and veracity to arrive at your own conclusions independently of any religious 'education' (indoctrination) you have encountered.

stevejazzx

I heard this story once, apparently true

A guy is in the pub having some lunch during a workday. He meets a few of his friends. They start to have a converstion about religon. Our guy discloses his belief or lack thereof in god. His friends being mostly sunday christians were a little taken aback at just how firmly he held this belief and were surprised that they hadn't heard this before.
The converstion moved on until at the end of the lunch another friend enters the bar and informs them his mother has just passed away.
He approaches our guy and just by chance and with no knowledge of the conversation that has just taken place asks:
"Do you think she will go to heaven?"
Our guy answers
"Yes, I'm sure of it".

Dave!

I'm not sure I get the significance of the story... well maybe I do.

I'd say the same thing, if just to comfort my mate. The alternative is to say no, she's done with, you'll never interact with her again. It may be true, but it sucks to hear that when your mother has just died! :eek:

aidan24326

DaveMcG wrote:

I'd say the same thing, if just to comfort my mate. The alternative is to say no, she's done with, you'll never interact with her again. It may be true, but it sucks to hear that when your mother has just died! :eek:

But what you're describing is obviously an exceptional circumstance. When someone's mother has just died would hardly be the best time to raise your issues concerning heaven and the afterlife etc., and only someone of extreme insensitivity would do so. That's fair enough. However this in no way relates to atheists/agnostics/non-believers hiding their views in some sort of shame at all other times where such tiptoed sensitivity is not required.

Dave!

I know, I was just questioning the relevance or significance of the story in the context of the thread. I don't know why he posted it...!

As to your post, yeah I should be open about it, but I don't think it makes a difference if I tell my parents that I'm an atheist, and I don't think it serves any purpose other than to create some mild unnecessary hostility. If they outright asked me, I'd tell them, but for the most part I'm comfortable having them think I'm a RC, and researching my own faith or lackthereof, in privacy.

I'd rather it wasn't such a taboo subject, but until I'm comfortable enough to be completely 100% sure in my non-belief in the supernatural, then I don't really think I'm up for participating in open debate on it (I know I started a thread about doing just that, but that didn't really mean I would be leading the way, because I'm not educated enough on the subject -- yet!)

Anyways...

anyone else -- closet or open atheist? And what did your friends and family think when you "came out"? What was the context in which it happened? As in the story mentioned earlier, was it over a few pints? Or did they find your copy of the God Delusion?

Zillah

Not in the slightest. My friends and family have known I'm an atheist/agnostic since I was 12 or so. I'll eagerly discuss it with anyone whos willing.

That said, most of my friends and family are lazy non-church goers who absently claim to be Catholics who really have little grasp of what that means.

On that topic, I think Irish Catholicism is a very innoffensive breed of Christianity. Most of them go through the motions, have the vague sense of "don't be an asshole" morality, but none of the life warping crap you see in a lot of other sects, such as a lot of American Christian groups.

Asiaprod

My family are very confused, they find it hard to understand how I can be both an Atheist and a Buddhist.

aidan24326

Zillah wrote:

That said, most of my friends and family are lazy non-church goers who absently claim to be Catholics who really have little grasp of what that means.

What you said there sums up a large amount of 'catholics' in this country tbh. When I told my mother that I have long since abandoned the catholic religion, am atheist etc. she didn't seem too impressed (despite the fact that she's not by any means a 'holy mary' herself). Yet I know very well that she hasn't really thought it through the way I have and continues to blindly follow her religion, attend mass etc. (though not devoutly) as much out of habit as anything else, as I know that deep down she probably has issues with it herself but prefers not to confront them. Very difficult to argue with anyone who refuses to see the truth right in front of them, hence the near-futility of arguing with the likes of JC over in the creationism thread.

Zillah

Asiaprod wrote:

My family are very confused, they find it hard to understand how I can be both an Atheist and a Buddhist.

Lack of belief in God does not conflict with Buddhist philosophy. Surely you could simply explain that to them?

What breed of Buddhism may I ask?

aidan24326 wrote:

Very difficult to argue with anyone who refuses to see the truth right in front of them, hence the near-futility of arguing with the likes of JC over in the creationism thread.

I was just thinking of him and his particular type of madness. He was amusing. Then tiring. Then upsetting. Then thoroughly ignorable.

hardox

nikita chruscov used to say:Yurij Gagarin was in cosmos and didn't see any god:cool:

Beruthiel

My parents are very strict Catholics. I believe they fear for all their daughters souls as none of us now bother with religion.
As with all old people it's never discussed and swept under the carpet. I would only upset them by ripping their beliefs to shreads, so I just leave them be.
I'll be giving Dawkins book to my daughter to read once I'm finished with it.

Asiaprod

Zillah wrote:

Lack of belief in God does not conflict with Buddhist philosophy. Surely you could simply explain that to them?

No, I think maybe I did not say it right, They believe that Buddhists also pray to Buddha who is our equivilent to the Christian God. When I explain he was never a God, they do not get it. There is no problem with me being a Buddhist, but now that two of my nieces have decided they also want to be Buddhists it should be interesting to see what happens.

What breed of Buddhism may I ask?

Mahayana (Nchiren Shoshu Japanese School).

Zombrex

stevejazzx wrote:

I heard this story once, apparently true

A guy is in the pub having some lunch during a workday. He meets a few of his friends. They start to have a converstion about religon. Our guy discloses his belief or lack thereof in god. His friends being mostly sunday christians were a little taken aback at just how firmly he held this belief and were surprised that they hadn't heard this before.
The converstion moved on until at the end of the lunch another friend enters the bar and informs them his mother has just passed away.
He approaches our guy and just by chance and with no knowledge of the conversation that has just taken place asks:
"Do you think she will go to heaven?"
Our guy answers
"Yes, I'm sure of it".

That is exactly what I would do ...

Beruthiel

Wicknight wrote:

That is exactly what I would do ...

As would I.
A death in someone's family is not the time to have a religious debate.
It's tactless in the extreem.

pH

I find the idea of hiding atheism extremely funny, allow me to explain.

I'm not sure how many here are baptised? I'm not, I come from a totally atheistic family, neither me nor my siblings were baptised.

My sister (in her rebellious teens) actually started attending Mass with her Catholic friends (how rebellious!), I remember being appalled at the time.

Thinking about it I must have had the most non-typical (in religious terms) childhood possible.

Zombrex

pH wrote:

My sister (in her rebellious teens) actually started attending Mass with her Catholic friends (how rebellious!), I remember being appalled at the time.

LOL ..

"Get back here young lady, while you are under MY roof you will be a godless immoral heretic!"

"No da!, I'm going out with my friends to church and you can't stop me!"

guildofevil

In answer to the "Do you think she will go to heaven?" I'm pretty good at the wiggle room answer myself. Something like “How could a loving God refuse?” would do the trick quite nicely.

I only ever hid my atheism from one person; my grandmother and that was at my mothers request. She pointed out, quite rightly, that it wouldn't do any good and that my grandmother would be worried about me, saying prayers for my conversion and other stuff like that.

aidan24326

guildofevil wrote:

I only ever hid my atheism from one person; my grandmother and that was at my mothers request. She pointed out, quite rightly, that it wouldn't do any good and that my grandmother would be worried about me, saying prayers for my conversion and other stuff like that.

Likewise. My poor grandmother (aged 89) would be awake at night worrying about me, and my lost soul. So nothing to be gained from revealing one's atheism in that situation. I tried to have a bit of a religious argument with her one time about 10 years ago (where I revealed my disbelief in the God of the RC Church) and found it a completely unwinable argument. After a lifetime of devout belief I surely wasn't going to change her mind now, and so left well enough alone after that. Since my grandfather died she believes they will be reunited in heaven, and I certainly wouldn't want to take that away from her. So I suppose there are situations where it may not be appropriate to argue one's atheistic views or to challenge someone else's beliefs when it clearly means so much to them.

stevejazzx

Wicknight wrote:

That is exactly what I would do ...

I don't think anyone got my point on this...probably my fault.
Of course in that situation I would say exactly the same thing.
I wouldn't start a debate or be cruel under those circumstances.
My point was however in answer to the question:
Do you ever hide your athesist beliefs?
Well obviously for everyone the answer is yes because society is not ready to evolve sufficently to accept such debate. The best way of conveying this idea was through that short story where I knew everyone would comment that they would do the same thing.
I viewed the question not as a simple 'would you hide your belief from family and friends' type thing but rather 'if it really came down to the wire like in the example portrayed in the story would you acknowledge your athesim?; short answer, no. Reason?, society in some circumstances would have massive problems with me saying I don't believe in God. So what we have is selective process and declaration and conceit in respect of social context. It's fascinating because on some levels we are all hypocrites for if we are Atheists then that is what we are.
Imagine telling an Muslim to pretend belief in something else to appease the weakness of general society.
Therefore I think it should be encouraged that we break the commonly placed taboos and get rid of this 'atheist cut-off point' for not until then will we ever forge a place amoung accepted society.

guildofevil

Just because theists arrogantly put their beliefs before the feelings of others, is no reason for us to do the same.

They believe they are right, regardless of what anyone else says, regardless of any evidence to the contrary and regardless of what pain it causes others.

I am openly atheist. Anyone who talks to me about religion will know that in short order. I don't avoid the topic in conversation.

However, in a very limited set of circumstances, like the one in your example, where it's a choice between avoiding the issue and rubbing salt in someone else's wounds, I will try to be diplomatic. I will not pretend to be a theist. I will not profess views I do not hold and if pressed, will tell the person that I am an atheist. But I will try to avoid causing a grieving person further pain.

Zombrex

stevejazzx wrote:

society in some circumstances would have massive problems with me saying I don't believe in God.

But you aren't really stating you don't believe in God, you are telling this guy that his mother isn't in heaven. There is a bit of a difference.

If someone, even this guy, asked "Do you believe in God?" I would probably say "No, personally I don't". But making a negative judgement on his dead mother would be a bit cruel. If he asked me "Do you think my mother was happy about me being gay?" I would probably say "Yes I'm sure she was", even if I knew she was doing zoodoo rituals every night to turn him straight.

As guiltofevil says there are ways to be diplomatic in these areas. More than that, if you asked me the question "Would you lie to avoid further upsetting a quite upset person" I would say "Yes" (with in reason, I'm not going to argree with Hitlers wife that her husband actually liked Jews)

Its not the best analogy to explore the issue of does society accept athiesm, because most people would lie in this situation, a Protestant would probably also lie, or a Muslim, because the person is quite upset.

A better example would be lying in front of say your girlfriends mother when she asks you do you wish to come to church with them on Sunday.

Or lying in front of say a doctor when he asks you what religion you are for a medical form.

Zillah

Wicknight wrote:

As guiltofevil says there are ways to be diplomatic in these areas. More than that, if you asked me the question "Would you lie to avoid further upsetting a quite upset person" I would say "Yes"

I suppose the best answer I'd give to the "Is my mother in heaven" questions would be a shrug. A non comittal one at that. Lieing about things like that just don't sit with me.

stevejazzx

guildofevil wrote:

Just because theists arrogantly put their beliefs before the feelings of others, is no reason for us to do the same.

They believe they are right, regardless of what anyone else says, regardless of any evidence to the contrary and regardless of what pain it causes others.

I am openly atheist. Anyone who talks to me about religion will know that in short order. I don't avoid the topic in conversation.

However, in a very limited set of circumstances, like the one in your example, where it's a choice between avoiding the issue and rubbing salt in someone else's wounds, I will try to be diplomatic. I will not pretend to be a theist. I will not profess views I do not hold and if pressed, will tell the person that I am an atheist. But I will try to avoid causing a grieving person further pain.

Yes thats the point I am trying to make..jeez...society simply isn't ready for someone to say
in some circumstances 'I'm sorry I don't believe in heaven or god'

stevejazzx

Wicknight wrote:

But you aren't really stating you don't believe in God, you are telling this guy that his mother isn't in heaven. There is a bit of a difference.

If someone, even this guy, asked "Do you believe in God?" I would probably say "No, personally I don't". But making a negative judgement on his dead mother would be a bit cruel. If he asked me "Do you think my mother was happy about me being gay?" I would probably say "Yes I'm sure she was", even if I knew she was doing zoodoo rituals every night to turn him straight.

As guiltofevil says there are ways to be diplomatic in these areas. More than that, if you asked me the question "Would you lie to avoid further upsetting a quite upset person" I would say "Yes" (with in reason, I'm not going to argree with Hitlers wife that her husband actually liked Jews)

Its not the best analogy to explore the issue of does society accept athiesm, because most people would lie in this situation, a Protestant would probably also lie, or a Muslim, because the person is quite upset.

A better example would be lying in front of say your girlfriends mother when she asks you do you wish to come to church with them on Sunday.

Or lying in front of say a doctor when he asks you what religion you are for a medical form.

This is where i'm going with this, the excuses you gave at the bottm about the girlfriends mother and the doctor, why as an atheist should we lie?
Only one answer, because we know that society can't handle our view.
It's all very silly having to hide a part of yourself to appease the ignorance of people in your social context don't you think.

Dades

stevejazzx wrote:

...society simply isn't ready for someone to say in some circumstances 'I'm sorry I don't believe in heaven or god'

It's not society anyone here is concerned about - it's the feelings (whether you believe them to be misguided or not) of someone close to you.

It's interesting that people get upset about what you (a random non-theist) believe. If they had their own genuine belief in the first instance it wouldn't be an issue. But the fact is that for the most part peoples' faith is shaky - and can start to crumble under the slightest threat of reality. Hence the reaction to atheists in times or loss.

There's a time and a place for revolution.

óbriain1988

I hide my atheism with a belief in God.....no?....no one having it?.....sorry..

stevejazzx

The Atheist wrote:

It's interesting that people get upset about what you (a random non-theist) believe. If they had their own genuine belief in the first instance it wouldn't be an issue. But the fact is that for the most part peoples' faith is shaky - and can start to crumble under the slightest threat of reality. Hence the reaction to atheists in times or loss.

.

....yes yes yes that is what i've been trying say, thank you, I was searching for that exact snetinment

Zombrex

stevejazzx wrote:

This is where i'm going with this, the excuses you gave at the bottm about the girlfriends mother and the doctor, why as an atheist should we lie?
Only one answer, because we know that society can't handle our view.
It's all very silly having to hide a part of yourself to appease the ignorance of people in your social context don't you think.

I agree, and I wouldn't lie in the examples I gave at the both.

But as The Atheist points out I'm also aware that my lack of faith can be interpreted by a theist as an attack on their faith. Which is very funny (you wouldn't get that with say a Christian talking to a Muslim, the Christian would just shrug it off as the Muslim being simply wrong), there is something about not having any religious belief that fundamentally challanges others beliefs

It isn't our fault, but at the same time I am aware this happens, and it can make me feel uncomfortable. But you just have remind yourself that it is their problem not yours

Funsterdelux

When asked that question "do you think shes in heaven" just say No, for me it doesnt exist.

get over it.

pH

I think this has more to do with how humans relate to each other.

Why would you ask someone you don't know well if they thought your mother had gone to heaven?

And if they know you well (and know you are an atheist) then the very question would seem to be some sort of direct challenge (possibly caused by the anger component of grief) - "Hey you - ATHEIST - do YOU think my mother is in heaven now?"

I think that in either case a respectful "I personally don't believe in heaven, but I feel sorrow for your loss and offer my deepest condolences." would suffice.

That said, I would also have no objection to a simple "Yes", and like all other posters here think that a "No you idiot, heaven doesn't exist - she's worm food now" would be entirely inappropriate in the situation, even if you believed it to be true.

Dades

My wife wears pants too small for her and says: "does my bum look big in these?"
There are two possible answers:

1. The honest one
2. The right one

Tar.Aldarion

I like to argue, I like to argue a lot. So no, I don't hide that I'm an agnostic/alatrist. I wouldn't proclaim it by any means. I would only discuss my two strongest 'beliefs', (religion and vegetarianism) when questioned about them.
When questioned about them though, I am a very enthusiastic debater.

Zombrex

The Atheist wrote:

My wife wears pants too small for her and says: "does my bum look big in these?"
There are two possible answers:

1. The honest one
2. The right one

ROFL ... funny cause its true

(the answers, not your wifes bum, which I'm sure is lovely )

Asiaprod

The Atheist wrote:

My wife wears pants too small for her and says: "does my bum look big in these?"
There are two possible answers:

1. The honest one
2. The right one

And you like I would pick no 2.

legspin

Asiaprod wrote:

And you like I would pick no 2.

Especially if thr answer is .... HELL YEAH:D

robindch

> "does my bum look big in these?"
> 1. The honest one
> 2. The right one

3. Desperately play for time: "Er, which bit?"

Asiaprod

robindch wrote:

3. Desperately play for time: "Er, which bit?"

Time is limited, pick wisely:D It's going to get you in the end.
You could try, "Its to dark to judge inside, I can give you an honest answer in the daylight.
Then run like hell.

Dades

Asiaprod wrote:

Time is limited, pick wisely:D

Response time in such situations is measured in femoseconds.
Any delay whatsoever results in the assumed default answer of (1), together with ensuing consequences.

Beruthiel

The Atheist wrote:

Any delay whatsoever results in the assumed default answer of (1), together with ensuing consequences.

Never a truer word was spoken

scrattletrap

All who know me know I'm atheist, but the fact that I have been since I was born helps. My born-again friend keeps trying to convert me but I stand firm, and other Christian friends tease me about it, I respect their beliefs for them, their just not for me.
My family never had a problem with it as there are Two bible catholics, One Protestant, two Agnostics, two Atheists (including me) one former Jehovah witness (not sure if he still is) and one undecided. And that is just my parents and siblings, it makes for interesting dinner parties.

Tar.Aldarion

Do a lot of people here have Christian friends? Would the amount vary with what age you are?

I am 20 and don't know a single Christian.

Sangre

scrattletrap wrote:

All who know me know I'm atheist, but the fact that I have been since I was born helps. My born-again friend keeps trying to convert me but I stand firm, and other Christian friends tease me about it, I respect their beliefs for them, their just not for me.

Rofl, I would love for someone to give me *that* opening.

To answer Tar's question, I can probably count on one hand the amount of people I know that regularly go to mass (at least once a month), that would be the 18-25 group.

Zombrex

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Do a lot of people here have Christian friends? Would the amount vary with what age you are?

Loads. They vary from christmas/easter christians (those who only go to church then) to people who are quite religions.

I also have a few Muslim friends.

Not many of my friends would admit to being athiest. I suspect that a few of the Christmas/Easter christians are, but as for the point of this thread, for what ever reason (mostly family) they don't state they are Athiest.

To be honest I don't think a lot of my friends think about the "big questions" (TM) that much.

scrattletrap

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Do a lot of people here have Christian friends? Would the amount vary with what age you are?

I'm 27 and I have friends of almost every religious persuasion.
I know quite a few people who go to mass every week, and my born again friend has extra prayer meetings twice a week. I have the Christmas/Easter Christians and the "I haven't been to mass since I was a child but I'm still a catholic" ones too.
A lot of the weekly mass goers are in their early thirties and bring their kids.

colm-ccfc84

no i dont hide it, no reason to.

Byrno

I don't hide my atheism to my friends but my family I'd be a bit cagey of. It been a souple of years now since I had, as I like to call it, "My Awakening"! Most of my friends would know at this stage that I'm an atheist but in my family it's only my sister and the cousins that are around my own age that know. I haven't told my parents as it has never properly arisen though I do get the feeling that they are starting to cop on, though granted thay could just think that I'm just lazy. Actually now that I think of it my mam did ask me once but I was still in bed and she had just woken me up and I was in no mood to have a God debate at that time so I just grunted at her! Like many of the other posters I don't think it would serve any purpose to tell my grandparents though. At this stage it would only put increased anxiety onto them.

Tar.Aldarion

What age are you Wicknight?
Scattletrap is 27, is it posible that such a change could be in just seven years?
Or are the people I meet just a statistic anomaly with none being religious.
Sangre, being around my age knows a few people who go to mass, but no more. This probably doesn't include people who go to mass rarely...

Thinking about it, I do have one friend who calls himself catholic but his beliefs are so 'un-catholic' that satanists look devoutly catholic compared to him. So I don't really call him one, but I wouldn't know what to call him. Religious I suppose, albeit knowing nothing aboiut religion.

Anyway, that is aside from the point.
I take it the older you are the more christians you know, the more people who would not confess to being atheist etc?

Beruthiel

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

I take it the older you are the more christians you know, the more people who would not confess to being atheist etc?

I think that likely.
Also, religion is not something I would tend to discuss with my peers. Now that I think of it, I have no clue one way or another what they are or what they believe in this area. Religion is not something that seems to be discussed like other subjects, perhaps it's too personal for most people.

aidan24326

I really don't see what all the fuss is about with revealing that you're atheist. It's not like 'coming out' as gay or lesbian, which I'm sure is a difficult thing to do. I don't believe in God, so what. Mine is the rational belief, or rational lack of a belief in this case. Anyone has a problem with that, well it's their problem in all fairness. (fragile grandparents excepted). It's my view/opinion, and should be respected as such, in the same way that I respect other people's right to believe in the bearded man in the sky, or whatever else keeps them happy. So to those hiding their atheist views I say stop apologising for what you believe to be right. People of strong religious faith delude themselves with all kinds of absurd and ridiculous fantasies, yet I don't see too many of them apologising for their closed-minded worldview. So us non-believers most certainly shouldn't be apologetic for the fact that we've managed to use our own minds and think for ourselves rather than simply swallowing every ounce of snake-oil passed our way.