Experience of VW Phaeton?

fortyplus

Anyone here got knowledge/ experience of VW Phaeton.
Considering importing from UK 3.0 tdi 225hp.

Have driven a little in UK and fantastic refinement.
Poor residuals make it a fantastic car as a 18 mth old purchase.
To me it appears equivalent in refinement to 730, but with no image issues and some lovely options (18 way air conditioned seats are like nothing else!)

Down side, if there is one, is limited local expertise, limited resale (!) in Ireland, but as I would plan 100K + ownership, not even a 730d is worth anything at that stage.

Experience of UK owners appears very positive ( via web)

All opinions, even roll around laughing, appreciated.

colm_mcm

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me. I've never driven one, but the whole anti-badge (ish) thing appeals to me.

Anan1

Me too.

junkyard

I'd buy an Audi A8 tbh, a far classier car than the VW.

bazz26

junkyard wrote:

I'd buy an Audi A8 tbh, a far classier car than the VW.

Yes but the Phaeton doesn't have the right badge in this company so will be bought for alot less than the A8. The Phaeton is also very rare compared to the A8 which will make it a bit of a novelty on Irish roads.

colm_mcm

Most people won't notice that it isn't a Passat. They'll just presume that it's closer than it actually is.....

Do-more

There's a petrol one for sale at the mo, in Mullingar

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=Car&carID=301020

fortyplus

Thanks for positive feedback.
FYI Maths are as follows
Landed price for 2005 3.0tdi 225bhp < Eu60K, ~ 10 to 15 k miles
Astounding spec
typically
18 way ventilated massage air con seats ( must be sat in on a hot sticky day to be appreciated!)
Super Stereo
TV
4 WD
Air suspension
Double glazing
Xenon
+ other stuff

It's closely related to A8 ( engine, drivetrain & suspension)
Also related closely to Bentley chassis ( hand built side by side in Dresden)
Interior photos show identical control layout & elctronics on Bentley & VW:

Down side is it weighs 2300 Kg ( 730d weighs only(!) 1900kg) so only 30 to 35 mpg (< 25 around town)

So I could but a 1 year old basic 730d for about 80K ( lost 25k in one year)
and get slagged by all my customers
OR
Get a super luxury Phateon that everyone thinks is a fat passat and save 20k.

unkel

fortyplus wrote:

Get a super luxury Phateon that everyone thinks is a fat passat and save 20k.

Go for it!

Anan1

The only problem I'd have with a Phaeton is the sheer size of it. My brother has an A8 and, wonderful car as it is, it's just that bit too big for city driving. I say this as someone who likes, and is used to driving, big cars. That said, if I were going to buy a newish diesel car of that size the Phaeton would be right at the top of my list.

unkel

Anan1 wrote:

The only problem I'd have with a Phaeton is the sheer size of it. My brother has an A8 and, wonderful car as it is, it's just that bit too big for city driving

I drive a 7-series which is about the same size as those cars. I do not find it too big for city driving although it can get a bit tight with multi-story parking etc.

The Phaeton the OP is planning to buy is loaded with options, so it probably has PDC front and rear, which makes a useful difference

connundrum

Phaeton ftw!!

The Top Gear guys couldn't praise it more, and I think it's a kickass piece of kit

Anan1

unkel wrote:

I drive a 7-series which is about the same size as those cars. I do not find it too big for city driving although it can get a bit tight with multi-story parking etc.

The Phaeton the OP is planning to buy is loaded with options, so it probably has PDC front and rear, which makes a useful difference

I think these cars might be even bigger than the E32 7 series, I know the A8 certainly feels it. PDC may help, but it won't actually shrink the car! That said, I suppose it's really all about where the car's going to be used. One other thing is that larger BMW & Mercedes seem to have better steering lock than the A8 - I wonder has it anything to do with drive also being fed to the front wheels?

fortyplus

Indeed I have been considering the size implications.
Most of my driving is long trips: Dublin Cork & back in the same day ( + a days work in the middle) So comfort & safety are the key issues.
Not so much town driving. ( wife has an A3 for that..)
Dimensions are virtually idential to the current 730.
To be really sad
Phaeton is
16mm longer
1 mm narrower
41mm lower
turning circle 12m: same for both
400kg heavier...

It has PDC all round. I had a 730d for a day and you get used to the size pretty quickly, but still not ideal for tecso car park..

The only thing that has held me back is that even thought everyone says "go for it"... no one ever does. When did you last see a Phaeton here in Ireland. There was one for sale in tallaght, but a non franchised dealer so I was not that interested. Interesting that it did indeed sell last week.

Why is nobody taking the view I am?
Is it by the time you can afford something like this the natural assumption is BMW, MB etc.
Or are many of the "high end" purchases company cars so s/h is out of the question?
Is it it pure status BS

unkel

Anan1 wrote:

I think these cars might be even bigger than the E32 7 series, I know the A8 certainly feels it

I've an E38 which is a bit bigger than an E32. The E38, any A8 and the Phaeton (all in normal length - the long versions of any of them are indeed huge!) are around 5m long and 1.9m wide, give or take a few centimeters

Anan1 wrote:

larger BMW & Mercedes seem to have better steering lock than the A8

RWD cars (like all BMW and Mercedes saloons) generally have a smaller turning circle than FWD cars. The quattro system on the A8 or the 4-motion on the VW do not decrease the turning circle compared to their siblings that only have FWD. The turning circle of a 7-series is roughly the same as that of a FWD car a full size smaller, like an A6

So I suppose that could make a bit of a difference in city centre driving and parking...

Anan1

fortyplus wrote:

Why is nobody taking the view I am?
Is it by the time you can afford something like this the natural assumption is BMW, MB etc.
Or are many of the "high end" purchases company cars so s/h is out of the question?
Is it it pure status BS

I think it is mainly a status thing. The problem with the status argument is that, even if you don't care yourself, there is a price to be paid at resale. Most people in the market for such a car will be thinking of trading every couple of years, as the status value of a big car wears off quickly with age. That said, if you plan on keeping the car long-term then this isn't going to be a worry for you.

fortyplus

Anan1 wrote:

I think it is mainly a status thing. The problem with the status argument is that, even if you don't care yourself, there is a price to be paid at resale. Most people in the market for such a car will be thinking of trading every couple of years, as the status value of a big car wears off quickly with age. That said, if you plan on keeping the car long-term then this isn't going to be a worry for you.

I look at deprecation in absolute terms rather than %.
If I buy a new 5series and tick the boxes to make a "luxury spec" it will easily make 80K: 730 is €100K +

I do ~20k miles year (almost all buisness) so in 4 years with 80 or 90 K miles it worth not a lot anyhow.

If I start at €60K, do my 100K + miles, (and I feel this would be easy in a Phaeton) than any residual is a bonus. If all is well one just keeps driving.
I have a 2003 320d right now with 75K miles and it drives like new in every way. I would hapilly drive it on for a few more years, but I want more comfort, so long term ownership is fine for me. I really feel that a modern design of a quality car will happily do up to 200k with reasonable care & maintenance.

unkel

fortyplus wrote:

I look at deprecation in absolute terms rather than %

If you're going to own it for another 4/5 years and 100k miles, at the end the 730d will have lost about €10k more at a quick guess. If you'll drive it into the ground and you won't expect any resale value at all than we don't need to guess. The Phaeton will have cost you €80k - €60k = €20k less in depreciation

Lyre61

Go for it. VWs are not really my thing, but I am into the Citroens so not much upstairs then I intend to get a C6 but I will have to wait another year, again it will be a long term thing and at the end of the day I am the one sitting in it all day and if it keeps me happy who else matters, and if the Phaeton does the same for you why worry what everyone else thinks. Going for the car as a long term proprosition the resale is not going to make much difference. Anyway too many Mercs and Beemers around, CBG is full of them.

unkel

As an alternative, have you considered petrol?

Think about it for a second. Your mileage is not that high. Your savings in fuel is only about €1k-€2k per year which is nothing compared to depreciation. A BMW 7-series V8 petrol will depreciate like mad in the first year or two, so would be very cheap to buy nearly new. The saving in depreciation will more than offset the extra fuel cost and a bit more tax

And then there's all the other benefits of driving a V8

Dark horse to be considered if you like your music: Lexus LS430...

michaelanthony

unkel wrote:

As an alternative, have you considered petrol?

Think about it for a second. Your mileage is not that high. Your savings in fuel is only about €1k-€2k per year which is nothing compared to depreciation. A BMW 7-series V8 petrol will depreciate like mad in the first year or two, so would be very cheap to buy nearly new. The saving in depreciation will more than offset the extra fuel cost and a bit more tax

And then there's all the other benefits of driving a V8

Dark horse to be considered if you like your music: Lexus LS430...

Diesel is cheaper to buy.

Gatster

Get the Phaeton if you have to have a diesel, although saying that I haven't been in one. I have been in a LS430 in the States during the summer though and it was the best luxury car I've ever been in, although I've not been in the new S-Class yet.

You see a few Phaetons in the UK, I've only seen one over here, parked on Waterloo road, which is a definite bonus.

Anan1

unkel wrote:

As an alternative, have you considered petrol?

Think about it for a second. Your mileage is not that high. Your savings in fuel is only about €1k-€2k per year which is nothing compared to depreciation. A BMW 7-series V8 petrol will depreciate like mad in the first year or two, so would be very cheap to buy nearly new. The saving in depreciation will more than offset the extra fuel cost and a bit more tax

And then there's all the other benefits of driving a V8

Dark horse to be considered if you like your music: Lexus LS430...

This is a very good point. As a long-term ownership proposition, I could also imagine a Lexus as being a lot more painless than a German car.

unkel

michaelanthony wrote:

Diesel is cheaper to buy.

RTFP :rolleyes:

@20k miles per annum, the saving in fuel is about €1500 assuming 40MPG for the diesel (€1.02/l) compared to 25MPG for petrol (€1.06/l) which I think are realistic for mainly long drives

onemanband

Sorry OP, I have to tell you to stay clear. The Phaeton mentioned earlier in this thread on carzone was actually mine. It was 110k new and I bought it 18 months old for Euro 65k with 10k KMs.

I had a older model A8 4.2 quattro before this.

The Phaeton is a super car in most respects. Super build quality, great comfort and super extras.

However I had enough of it after 6 months. The handling is nothing like the A8. Front wheel drive is not good, the 3.2 petrol is underpowered. most people thought it was the new passat while some thought is was a Jetta.

Biggest problem of all was that it was impossible to trade. Not a single VW garage out of 6 I tried was prepared to offer me more than 40k. I had only put on 6k on the clock. In the end I traded it for an M3 convertible and I lost Euro 13k for my 6 months.

I considered this car for all the same reasons as the OP. Going again I would pay a bit more for the older S class. I think the 7 looks like a pig!

unkel

onemanband wrote:

Sorry OP, I have to tell you to stay clear. The Phaeton mentioned earlier in this thread on carzone was actually mine. It was 110k new and I bought it 18 months old for Euro 65k with 10k KMs

Great value for money. Just what the OP is looking for

onemanband wrote:

Biggest problem of all was that it was impossible to trade

OP is not interest in trading it in

onemanband wrote:

The handling is nothing like the A8

And probably nothing like a 7-series either. The handling doesn't seem to concern the OP much

onemanband wrote:

he 3.2 petrol is underpowered

OP is considering the diesel which by no means is underpowered

onemanband wrote:

most people thought it was the new passat while some thought is was a Jetta

Great! All the more reason to buy one

fortyplus

onemanband wrote:

Sorry OP, I have to tell you to stay clear. The Phaeton mentioned earlier in this thread on carzone was actually mine. It was 110k new and I bought it 18 months old for Euro 65k with 10k KMs.

I had a older model A8 4.2 quattro before this.

The Phaeton is a super car in most respects. Super build quality, great comfort and super extras.

However I had enough of it after 6 months. The handling is nothing like the A8. Front wheel drive is not good, the 3.2 petrol is underpowered. most people thought it was the new passat while some thought is was a Jetta.

Biggest problem of all was that it was impossible to trade. Not a single VW garage out of 6 I tried was prepared to offer me more than 40k. I had only put on 6k on the clock. In the end I traded it for an M3 convertible and I lost Euro 13k for my 6 months.

I considered this car for all the same reasons as the OP. Going again I would pay a bit more for the older S class. I think the 7 looks like a pig!

Very interesting OneManBand!!
A few small things: In all the UK posts the feeling is that the 3.0 diesel is better than the 3.2 petrol. I have only experience of the diesel.
Very few FWD were made: Am I correct in thinking yours was FWD. All 3.0 Diesel are 4 motion (AWD).

I have the chance for an extended test drive in the next week or so, to decide on the real worls issues. Time will tell.
All the UK diesel owners seem to love the car.
The key negative issue is that it would be an absolute commitment: live with it for 100k miles or else get nailed on the sale.

3ps

Can I suggest that considering the amount of money you are thinking of spending, and the type of cars we are talking about..... there is little chance that you will be able to keep this car for 10 years, no matter how good it is?

Some other nice big lovely car will catch your eye in perhaps 3-4 years and you will be stuck then!

If you are into cars and want to have a nice car then owning one for 10 years is not an option.

Tinker13

onemanband wrote:

most people thought it was the new passat while some thought is was a Jetta.

Call me a snob but this would probably really p*** me off after a while. Imagine spending €60k on a car and everytime someone gets into it you have to explain what it is... 'no actually its a Phaeton... what a foetus?... no,no. Aw s*** I'm buying a beemer..."

€40k though mmm...

Anan1

Tinker13 wrote:

onemanband wrote:

most people thought it was the new passat while some thought is was a Jetta.

Call me a snob but this would probably really p*** me off after a while. Imagine spending €60k on a car and everytime someone gets into it you have to explain what it is... 'no actually its a Phaeton... what a foetus?... no,no. Aw s*** I'm buying a beemer..."

€40k though mmm...

It all depends on how self-confident you are, to be honest.

fortyplus

Anan1 wrote:

Tinker13 wrote:

onemanband wrote:

most people thought it was the new passat while some thought is was a Jetta.

It all depends on how self-confident you are, to be honest.

Status is a funny thing... In the school the kids are in I see Continental GT, S class Merc, up the road was a Quatroporte. If I wanted anyone to notice I would need to spend 150K++.
At 40+ who gives a hoot what anyone thinks.

I am not out to impress anyone, quite the reverse...

Lex Luthor

If you are happy with your 320d, then why not just jump up to a 525 or 530d?

I think something like this would be more than comfortable on the long journeys you are making. Plus if you do get bored in a few yrs, then you should have no trouble shifting one of them, especially the 525d.

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=508559

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=449615

http://www.carzone.ie/usedcars/index.cfm?fuseaction=car&carID=376602

onemanband

fortyplus wrote:

Very interesting OneManBand!!
A few small things: In all the UK posts the feeling is that the 3.0 diesel is better than the 3.2 petrol. I have only experience of the diesel.
Very few FWD were made: Am I correct in thinking yours was FWD. All 3.0 Diesel are 4 motion (AWD).

I have the chance for an extended test drive in the next week or so, to decide on the real worls issues. Time will tell.
All the UK diesel owners seem to love the car.
The key negative issue is that it would be an absolute commitment: live with it for 100k miles or else get nailed on the sale.

Yep mine was FWD and not very good at that. If the 4motion is half as good as the A8 then it should be much better. The diesel may also be better for performance and resale.

However, you come across as a guy who knows his stuff and is passionate about cars. I would argue then that the likelyhood of you keeping this car for years and years is unlikely. I made the mistake with many cars of not considering the resale. The issue I had was not one of price, it was that most of the dealers had no interest. I had it up on carzone and got one call. Just consider this as you will find no fault with the car when you drive it. The problems may come later.

For me most people thinking it was a passat did not bother me. The people who know cars will know it is a phaeton straight away.

If you do go for it then happy motoring.

ninty9er

unkel wrote:

RTFP :rolleyes:

@20k miles per annum, the saving in fuel is about €1500 assuming 40MPG for the diesel (€1.02/l) compared to 25MPG for petrol (€1.06/l) which I think are realistic for mainly long drives

Petrol 99c/l, diesel 103.5c/l, don't know where you're buying your diesel that it's cheaper than petrol but I'm sure the MPG can't be that different on big engines between petrol and diesel

Lexus LS430 full tank (84l) give or take = 700km combined - and the op is doing mainly motorway so higher

Lexus GS450h full tank (63l) and gives 35MPG combined

Phaeton 3.0 TDI is 9.5l/100km extra urban
LS430 is 8.5l/100km extra urban, which is actually better and considering petrol is cheaper would make sense

dubstub

More than you could ever want to know about the Phaeton:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1652232
I think it's quite a good looking car - understated style, and all that - plus, the luxury interior is lovely. It sounds like you've already made up your mind that you want it and if you're happy with it for the next 5 years then it'll be a good buy!

Alun

ninty9er wrote:

Petrol 99c/l, diesel 103.5c/l, don't know where you're buying your diesel that it's cheaper than petrol ...

Round here (Dublin/Wicklow) diesel is currently 4 or 5 cents a litre cheaper than petrol. Things can change quite rapidly though, especially if we have a cold winter in which case this will probably reverse, like it did last year.

unkel

ninty9er wrote:

Petrol 99c/l, diesel 103.5c/l, don't know where you're buying your diesel

I'm not buying diesel anywhere. My figures are ball park hence my €1k-€2k saving per annum give or take 3 cents

It's quite possible the price of petrol will be slightly different from exactly 103.5c/l in 5 years time

ninty9er wrote:

I'm sure the MPG can't be that different on big engines between petrol and diesel

That was one of the reasons in my asking the OP did he consider going petrol. So how about it, OP?

eamon234

Don't know about anyone else here but if I could afford to pay 60k for a car I wouldn't give a fiddlers how much petrol or diesel cost!!!
If the man wants a Phaeton let him buy a Phaeton - and apparently it's got much more in common with the Bentley than the A8.
Just don't drive up my arse in it on the Cork road my lowly 00 Octavia's very sensitive....:)

fortyplus

onemanband wrote:

Yep mine was FWD and not very good at that. If the 4motion is half as good as the A8 then it should be much better. The diesel may also be better for performance and resale.

For me most people thinking it was a passat did not bother me. The people who know cars will know it is a phaeton straight away.

Onemanband..
FWD and not very good at that? What exactly do you mean: lots of traction lights flashing I would expect, 200hp through the front wheels and >2000kg, or was there some other issue?

Obviously it was bad enough to get rid of it and get whacked on the trade in.
It was never going to be a match for the M3!!

It's great to see the opinions. To me Phaeton is pure understatment.
It is without doubt a barge, but on days when you spend 7 hours in the car a barge is just what's needed. It's not for running to the shop for the paper (push bike for that).

It's also a risk because of all the complex electronics, but someone once said that we usually regret most the things we did not do, rather than the things we did. I think it's the the pure amount of technology that attracts me to the car. And all those buttons... I always was a fidgit as a kid. Keep me happy for hours.

Regarding Petrol V Diesel. At the end of the day none of us want to spend more money that we have to. 225bhp is lots for me. It will still do 30ish mpg overall.
Several of the other cars suggested will do well to get 25mpg, and unless quite old are quite expensive.
To me being mistaken for a passat in my customers car park is a good thing:D

unkel

fortyplus wrote:

Regarding Petrol V Diesel. At the end of the day none of us want to spend more money that we have to

My point entirely. I haven't done the sums for the Phaeton, but a 7-series petrol might be cheaper in total cost of ownership for you than a 7-series diesel...

JHMEG

In the vein of big cars with the wrong badge, how about a Honda Legend? Depreciate like you wouldn't believe, loadsa toys, equipment, luxury and will be more reliable than the Phaeton.

And no-one will be mistaking it for a lowlier car

(Tho IMHO, the 2007 Legend looks super, and has that award winning AWD system)

Guy:Incognito

The Legend was in my list before I got the safranes and still is forthe next change ( a couple of years away now ) When it comes time to change the safrane I dont want to drop down in spec, so I reckon the only cars I'll find with a similar level of spec at decent money will be the Legend, 607, C6, Phaeton or a Vel Satis. None of which I'd be unhappy about owning.

Incidentally, how come the Legend isnt mentioned at all on Honda's Irish site? EDIT, or the Uk one?

bazz26

Stekelly wrote:

Incidentally, how come the Legend isnt mentioned at all on Honda's Irish site? EDIT, or the Uk one?

From www.honda.ie dated 2005:

http://www.honda.ie/contentv3/index.cfm?fuseaction=page&pageID=4468

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote:

Incidentally, how come the Legend isnt mentioned at all on Honda's Irish site? EDIT, or the Uk one?

At the moment the Legend can't be bought new (aside from old stock at dealers), as Honda are in that "limbo" period where production of the old model is finished and the 2007 model (for export) isn't available yet.

BTW, you've a scary amount of French cars on your list! (I don't like car trouble!)

JHMEG

bazz26 wrote:

From www.honda.ie dated 2005:

http://www.honda.ie/contentv3/index.cfm?fuseaction=page&pageID=4468

The new domestic version (as always) is available in the home market long before anywhere else.

Guy:Incognito

JHMEG wrote:

BTW, you've a scary amount of French cars on your list! (I don't like car trouble!)

Either do I , and I've had none. Well none that wasnt my own faultI did manage to drain the engine of coolant on the first safrane by not clicking the hose back in properly, so the next day on my way to work I started seeing a worrying amount of smoke/steam comign from the overheating engine. From then on I always cast an eye one the temp gauge every now and then when I drive any car just in case. Who'd have thought that a car with an on board computer that talks to you when faults arise wouldnt have a voice prompt for an overheating engine. Car companies should really allow for things like that:D

fortyplus

Stekelly wrote:

so I reckon the only cars I'll find with a similar level of spec at decent money will be the Legend, 607, C6, Phaeton or a Vel Satis. None of which I'd be unhappy about owning.

Is it not a little unfair to class the Phaeton along with the 607/C6/ Vel Satis.
These are big cars made by mass manufacturers but in the same model of their "everyday" cars. I once drove a Vel Satis and it felt to be sculpted from jelly, in comparison the Phaeton from granite.

I see on a UK Phaeton forum the alternative purchases for those who bought Phaeton were Range Rover, Jag XJ, 5/7 series.

For those who have not sat & travelled in one, do it if you get the chance. VW never marketed it properly. It should have been a much bigger seller. I am still inclined to think it's the secret luxury s/h bargin in 3.0 tdi/4WD format

el diablo

they're lovely cars and so rare. (I've only ever seen one on Irish roads) I'd say get one if the price is good.....:D