[Article] Folens to wipe 'British Isles' off the map in new atlas

Navan Junction

Irish Times, 02/10/2006

Folens publishers has said it plans to produce a "more correct" version of its widely-used school atlas from January which will omit all references to the "British Isles", writes Áine Kerr.


The glossy world atlas has a section of 31 pages with maps and information, all of which show Ireland under the heading of the British Isles.

Following a recent complaint by a parent to the Minister for Education, Mary Hanafin, her private secretary issued a letter on her behalf recommending that the aggrieved parent raise the matter directly with the teacher who was using the atlas or the school's board of management.

"She also advises you to bring the matter to the attention of Folens, the publishing company concerned," the letter states, adding that the Department does not have a role in vetting the content of publications, including textbooks, produced by commercial companies.

The introduction of the Folens atlas follows a recent entry on the online encyclopaedia Wikipedia on the term "British Isles" which stated that the phrase could be "confusing and objectionable to some people, particularly in Ireland".

The term has in the past been used in a purely geographical sense, to make clear Ireland's proximity to Britain.

However, Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern has ruled that the term is not used by the Government and is without any official status.

It was made clear by him that the term is not recognised in any legal or inter-governmental sense.

It has been suggested in education circles that the Folens atlas highlights the need to have a checking system whereby all textbooks are checked to ensure they conform with the curriculum as outlined by the National Council for Curriculum Assessment.

The Irish Embassy in London has also been urged to monitor the media in Britain for "any abuse of the official terms as set out in the Constitution of Ireland and in legislation".

John O'Connor of Folens insisted he had received no complaints from parents regarding the new atlas. The issue had, however, been brought to his attention by a geography teacher.

"I have a policy that if I see a potential problem I'll act on it immediately instead of waiting to see if a problem arises. So from January 2007 the reference will be removed."

© The Irish Times

Maskhadov

About time.. Use of the term "british isles" is a disgrace

RedPlanet

Is there another term for this archipelago?

Healio

RedPlanet wrote:

Is there another term for this archipelago?

North Western Europe??

Sarsfield

I've never understood why it bothers anyone. It's better than the "British & Irish Isles". Now that's just embarrassing

Navan Junction

Sarsfield wrote:

It's better than the "British & Irish Isles". Now that's just embarrassing

Personally, I think Britain and Ireland is fine..

There is no rush for a geographic term for Britain and France, or for the Franco-German region, so why one for Britain and Ireland?

I see myself as, and have no objection to being called a European. I have a major problem with being termed a British Islander.

admiralofthefleet

how is this a commuting & transport issue?

mike65

Poeple might get lost.

Mike.

Red Alert

The six counties is in lawful fact part of the british 'empire'. However, ireland as a whole is not a british isle, and should not be referred to as such.

OT: the obvious question of why we need a british subject for president arises!

im_invisible

[off topic, (well arnt we all)]

afaik, the official term for britan, 'the united kingdom of great britian and northern ireland' is the longest official country* name in the world

*what do you call it, if not a country, kingdom?

bmaxi

OMG Famine, War, Terrorism, Global warming and now "British Isles", where will it all end?

mike65

ROFL!

Mike.

Navan Junction

mike65 wrote:

Poeple might get lost.

Reminds me of Ali g interviewing some Unionist politician (can't remember who)..

Ali G asked him if he was Irish.

The politician said no, he was British.

Ali G asked him "Oh, Is you on holidays?"

RedPlanet

Healio wrote:

North Western Europe??

Dunno about that.
http://www.google.ie/search?q=define%3A+archipelago&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official

bazzer

Irish Isles!

weehamster

How about the Atlantic Isles or maybe the North west Isles. Or my fav. the European Isles.

GerardKeating

RedPlanet wrote:

Is there another term for this archipelago?

Western European off-shore Islands ???

europerson

I really don't see the problem with the use of the term, "the British Isles". It's just a historic name. The same as the Royal Dublin Society, the Royal Institute of Architects in Ireland, the Royal College of Surgeons, the Royal Irish Academy, the Royal Hibernian Academy, etc. Nobody's suggesting that we change the names of all those things too.

Danno

RedPlanet wrote:

Is there another term for this archipelago?

Islands Of [the] North Atlantic is understood to be an accepted alternative, hence Iona...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islands_of_the_North_Atlantic

jahalpin

Why are Irish people so childish? The term "British Isles" refers to the fact that there are 2 islands which are close together the larger of which is Great Britain. They have been called the British Isles for hundreds of years and it is only childish Irish republicans who seem to take offence at it., these are probably the same people who would be against an official visit from HM The Queen amd also against the use of the flag of the United Kingdom on government buildings in Northern Ireland

sceptre

Danno wrote:

Islands Of [the] North Atlantic is understood to be an accepted alternative

Accepted and understood by whom?

Navan Junction

jahalpin wrote:

Why are Irish people so childish? The term "British Isles" refers to the fact that there are 2 islands which are close together the larger of which is Great Britain. They have been called the British Isles for hundreds of years and it is only childish Irish republicans who seem to take offence at it., these are probably the same people who would be against an official visit from HM The Queen amd also against the use of the flag of the United Kingdom on government buildings in Northern Ireland

I think the term originally was Great Britain and Ireland on all British maps. In Roman times, the Romans (not the Irish mind) called the islands Britannica and Hibernia. Generally, if someone finds a term offensive, you stop using it. But hey, maybe that isn't within your comprehension.

europerson

Someone, to whom I was talking, made the point that British people aren't protesting about "the Irish Sea", so why ought we to protest about "the British Isles"?

quad_red

europerson wrote:

Someone, to whom I was talking, made the point that British people aren't protesting about "the Irish Sea", so why ought we to protest about "the British Isles"?

The French aren't protesting about the English Channel.

Navan Junction wrote:

Generally, if someone finds a term offensive, you stop using it. But hey, maybe that isn't within your comprehension.

Exactly. What aren't people getting here? Why is it upsetting for British people that a ex-colony island beside them no longer wants to be known as the British anything. How is this so hard to understand?

jahalpin wrote:

Why are Irish people so childish? ...and it is only childish Irish republicans who seem to take offence at it

What a sophisticated argument.

Who are you calling childish?

sceptre

quad_red wrote:

The French aren't protesting about the English Channel.

The French don't call it the English Channel.

strassenwolf

Danno wrote:

Islands Of [the] North Atlantic is understood to be an accepted alternative, hence Iona...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islands_of_the_North_Atlantic

That could be confusing though. With Iceland and the Faeroe Islands 'n stuff.

Ste.phen

strassenwolf wrote:

That could be confusing though. With Iceland and the Faeroe Islands 'n stuff.

Actually it's just those islands which come to mind when i hear "North Atlantic".

spacetweek

Anecdotally, I know there's a lot of opposition to the term here. Queens coming over for a visit and Union Jacks flying on buildings in NI (which is part of the UK) are totally separate things and I don't think any sane person would have a problem with those anymore. However, "The British Isles" makes a lot of people uncomfortable and rightly so, as it sounds colonial. It doesn't matter how many centuries it's been used, if it's deemed no longer appropriate, it shouldn't be used.

Alun

Regardless of the arguments as to what they should be called, the fact that a small Irish educational publisher, probably totally unknown outside of this country, has decided to omit the term from a school atlas isn't going to make diddley-squat difference to what the rest of the world calls them, and will probably continue to do so, so it's all a bit academic really.

Navan Junction

Alun wrote:

Regardless of the arguments as to what they should be called,

"They" already have names.. Ireland, and Britain. After that it's Europe. Which is a term which ironically is something which isn't nessessarily accepted easily across the water.:)

murphaph

Alun wrote:

it's all a bit academic really.

Lolm good one Alun.

Victor

Navan Junction wrote:

or for the Franco-German region

North European Plain, although give Poland and BeNeLux a look in.

corktina

jahalpin wrote:

Why are Irish people so childish? The term "British Isles" refers to the fact that there are 2 islands which are close together the larger of which is Great Britain. They have been called the British Isles for hundreds of years and it is only childish Irish republicans who seem to take offence at it., these are probably the same people who would be against an official visit from HM The Queen amd also against the use of the flag of the United Kingdom on government buildings in Northern Ireland

well said......

what a prickly lot some of you are....

Navan Junction

corktina wrote:

what a prickly lot some of you are....

Look across the water! Pretending you aren't European, rejecting the Euro, opting out of EU integration, and when opting in screaming about it..

Slagging the French with a passion that borders on obsession.

Constant references to WW11, the great escape and all that, whilst all the time completely rejecting your Germanic ancestry!

There is something about Britannia and ruling the waves (or at least laying claim to them) around Ireland that is almost entertaining. Sure I forgot, don't ye own Rackall as well?

Think re childishness, it can apply equally on both sides of the sea.. In fact it's global. Offensiveness, well that's a wee bit different..

The real question is why do people on the other island feel the need to name this island at all?

quad_red

corktina wrote:

well said......

what a prickly lot some of you are....

Are ye just trying to be awkward?

What exactly is your objection to not using the term British Isles. It's got nothing to do with the Queen in her damn undies or your own political biases in regards to republicans etc.

Cos it seems to revolve around a form of snorting smugness. That it doesn't make a difference anyway. And anyway, it's just sputtering RA heads on here that are advocating that. As well as throwing poo at the Queen and rioting in Oconnell st.

Well, if it makes so little difference to you, if you don't care one way or another, then why are you objecting? Why are you expanding the issue to include things that nobody here mentioned? 'Navan Junction' is right - it's a tag loaded with historical baggage. It's also completely unnecessary. From a purely academic standpoint, the name is undesirable.

Let the publisher change the atlas.

Navan Junction

irtish Times, 05/10/2006


Newton's Optic: The present hullabaloo over the term 'British Isles' is just a load of John Bull, writes Newton Emerson


The term "British Isles" will be removed from geography textbooks following a complaint from a parent. The term is considered offensive by many people who lead full and rewarding lives.

Confusion arises because 10 per cent of the inhabitants of the British Isles are Irish, most of whom live on the island of Ireland, where 20 per cent of the inhabitants are British. There are no immediate plans to find a more correct term for "Ireland".

Several alternative names have been suggested for the archipelago sharing the continental shelf off northwestern Europe.

These include The 90 Per Cent British Isles, The British And Irish (Including The British Part Of Ireland) Isles and the EU-preferred Archipelago Sharing the Continental Shelf off Northwestern Europe.

However, the terminology used in the Belfast Agreement is the most likely to gain widespread acceptance. Under the agreement, the British Isles are referred to as "These Islands", except outside the British Isles where they are referred to as "Those Islands".

Within These Islands, the island of Ireland is referred to as "This Island", except outside the island of Ireland where it is referred to as "That Island".

This Island includes the Blasket Islands which are referred to as the Blasket Islands, except on the Blasket Islands where they are referred to as These Islands, and Ireland is referred to as That Island, despite both being part of This Island.

Textbook publishers are confident that this will still be easier for children to understand than the biography of Peig Sayers.

The Belfast Agreement itself is often referred to by some unionists as the Good Friday agreement, but this has nothing to do with this or that, so it is neither here nor there.

Cartographers believe the term "Irish Sea" is not offensive as nobody lives in the sea.

However, this situation could change if global warming causes the Irish Sea to flood 10 per cent of Britain.

Of more immediate concern is the village of Ireland in Bedfordshire. Including this in a school textbook would offend almost everyone in These Islands who leads a full and interesting life.

Geography experts say it is unfortunate that the village was not destroyed 20 years ago by an IRA bomb, as many people who find the term "British Isles" offensive would not have found that offensive at all.

Perhaps the greatest threat to an agreed system of geographical nomenclature between These Islands is posed by the Isle of Man.

Officially part of the British Isles, but not part of the United Kingdom, the Isle of Man is a crown dependency in the middle of the Irish Sea, which could scarcely be more of a provocation.

The island's name is also highly offensive to women who lead full and interesting lives.

Textbook publishers suggest that the Isle of Man might be renamed the Isle of People or at the very least the Isle of Man and Woman.

The offensive nature of its constitutional status could be resolved by leaving inland areas dependent on the crown, while coastal areas elect a president.

Irish Government sources remain optimistic that all these issues can be resolved peacefully. "It's simple enough," explained a Fianna Fáil spokesman yesterday.

"There are two major islands in the Archipelago Sharing the Continental Shelf off Northwestern Europe.

"One where you have to pay tax on a gift and one where you don't."

© The Irish Times

Victor

Navan Junction wrote:

Of more immediate concern is the village of Ireland in Bedfordshire.

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=513327&y=241469&z=3&sv=513327,241469&st=4&ar=Y&ax=513327&ay=241469

Navan Junction

Navan Junction wrote:

Irish Government sources remain optimistic that all these issues can be resolved peacefully. "It's simple enough," explained a Fianna Fáil spokesman yesterday.

"There are two major islands in the Archipelago Sharing the Continental Shelf off Northwestern Europe.

"One where you have to pay tax on a gift and one where you don't."

Nice sense of humour in fairness..

murphaph

Navan Junction wrote:

"They" already have names.. Ireland, and Britain.

The British Isles is the name for the entire archipelago, not just Ireland and Britain. Using Ireland and Britain omits the Isle of Man, Scilly Isles, Isle of White, Orkneys, Shetland, Achill, Skelig Michael, Rathlin, Tory and many other offshore islands. The British Isles encompasses all these. The name Ireland and Britain is therefore not a direct substitute for the term British Isles.

Navan Junction

murphaph wrote:

The British Isles is the name for the entire archipelago, not just Ireland and Britain. Using Ireland and Britain omits the Isle of Man, Scilly Isles, Isle of White, Orkneys, Shetland, Achill, Skelig Michael, Rathlin, Tory and many other offshore islands. The British Isles encompasses all these. The name Ireland and Britain is therefore not a direct substitute for the term British Isles.

Nope. It's a loaded term, under the guise of geographic nessessity, to feed nostagic longings for a retreated empire. Why else would you choose to name another country after your own?

If this is a british Isle, then that makes me a british Islander. And I do find that offensive, and highly entertaining that another country would have the neck to do so.

Good letters in the Irish Times today. Comments such as "How would the Dutch and Belgians feel if they were called the German region"? Or the Portugese if Spain and Portugal were the "Spanish Peninsula".

And of course another letter calling any Irish person that dare question their Britishness as prickly.

"The british Isles" is a loaded term, used for a reason. If it is merely a geographic term, why isn't confined to geographic usage?!

Regarding britain and Ireland, as I said those are the names of the 2 biggest islands in this region of Northwest Europe. It wasn't an attempt to call every rock as one name or the other. Though, in fairness most of the islands in the region belong to one or other of the 2 countries.

The term "British Isles" gives the impression that the all (for the want of a better word) belongs to britain. Look at another notorious term, "THE MAINLAND". Imagine my surprise when I discovered this was a reference to britain rather than France or Europe!

unkel

Thanks for sharing that article, Navan Junction. Very funny indeed

murphaph

Navan Junction wrote:

If this is a british Isle, then that makes me a british Islander. And I do find that offensive, and highly entertaining that another country would have the neck to do so.

But Canadians, Mexicans and Brazilians are also Americans. It's just a quirk like that. It's not even a term I'd use very often, mainly on boards actually!

Navan Junction

murphaph wrote:

But Canadians, Mexicans and Brazilians are also Americans. It's just a quirk like that. It's not even a term I'd use very often, mainly on boards actually!

Don't worry - I wouldn't to take offence..

Most times I ignore that term - in certain circumstances it really gets up my nose.. I can't think of anything I've ever read on boards.ie (that originated on boards) that has gotten up my nose.. It's just that kind of environment...:rolleyes:

Ah, where's nordydan when you need him... I'll long remember that line from him "Here come Murphaph Dudley Edwards, with more treasonous rantings..."

Metrobest

The British Isles is a handy term to be used when refering to the UK and ROI. Eg. a concise "I toured the British Isles" as opposed to the yawn-inducing "I toured England, Scotland, Wales, the Six Counties of Northern Ireland and the Twenty Six Counties of the Irish Republic."

And here's the thing. 100 years ago, these islands were British.

Navan Junction

Metrobest wrote:

And here's the thing. 100 years ago, these islands were British.

And here's the other thing. Now they are not.

In fact they were never British just as France was never Germany, and Poland was never Russia.

And to use a contemporary, Iraq is not America.

Tell Bin Laden he's American because he lives in Afganastan.

quitepossibly

And here's another thing: They were British against the wishes of the vast majority of the inhabitants of this island. I for one do not want the country where I live, where I was born, where I am proud to be from to have anything to do with the term 'British'. British is not on my passport and not in my address. I am Irish. Don't belittle your own country by making statements like it was British 100 years ago so its ok to still use the term today. It is a highly offensive attitude.

Exit

Can we get the name of the country changed from Ireland to Eirinn while we're at it? I believe the Brits named that too.

I'd also like to retrieve the 'h' and 'n', so our capital city can go back to Dubh Linn without the stench of colonialism surrounding it's name.

I mean, seriously, who really cares about all this? Are you all so offended you can't sleep at night. Like it or not, British culture is a huge part of our culture. It's what makes us who we are today. The majority of us have British blood in our veins too, but nobody likes to acknowledge that, do they?

It's the British Isles. The same way the Irish Sea is the Irish Sea (and I've never heard British people writing letters wanting it to be changed). Irish people seem to just never stop moaning about something.

Navan Junction

Exit wrote:

The same way the Irish Sea is the Irish Sea

Change it. Part of that stretch of water is British anyway, so no problem here with that.. From an Irish perspective it would be easier to call it the British sea.. Full of so much of there radioactive **** anyway that I'm quite sure most Irish people would be happier to have their name on it rather than ours.

Metrobest

Well said, Exit.

When I visited Melbourne's Immigation Museum a while ago, I was fascinated to look at the posters from the early part of the century aimed at attracting British immigrants to Australia. They featured a giant map of Britain (ie. the British Isles). At that point, Ireland was, in the eyes of the rest of the world, as British as Hertfordshire.

Just like the way the vast majority of Irish people refer to their city break in Barcelona as a trip to "Spain" - blissfully unaware that the majority of the 7 million Catalans don't see themselves as Spanish and want an end to Madrid rule.

The Barcelona people excuse our ignorance of their identity; in the same spirit, we should allow the rest of the world to refer to the "British Isles", even if we may not use the term ourselves. We are an independent country. Let's develop a thicker skin about these things.

Navan Junction

Metrobest wrote:

At that point, Ireland was, in the eyes of the rest of the world, as British as Hertfordshire.

So was Australia. In fact ye still have the Union Jack on the flag.

strassenwolf

What about "the Home Countries", which seems to have disappeared. It describes the location of "home" to the people of Ireland and Britain, and many emigrants around the world. Who could possibly be offended?:D