Reports and marking

Crash

EDIT: This begin as a giant rant of mine on reports in the engineering thread. split due to clutter.


However, do me a favour and if you get a **** mark thanks to presentation, check your presentation. it IS out of line to be a really picky ****, so you're well in the right to give out about PG students who mark badly for that sort of thing (sorry, but it is a problem in comp sci.)

Endymion

Thats never been a problem in engineering. They outline what presentation they expect, such as staying within the alloted space, and neatness.

fiddlestick

&#231 wrote: »

However, do me a favour and if you get a **** mark thanks to presentation, check your presentation. it IS out of line to be a really picky ****, so you're well in the right to give out about PG students who mark badly for that sort of thing (sorry, but it is a problem in comp sci.)

Excuse me?
PG students strive to mark as fairly as possible. When you have to mark 40 + reports badly written with 6th class spelling mistakes, scrawled notes, and in some cases, project reports submitted complete with instructions/corrections you yourself(the pg student) had written earlier in the year to correct the UG student, then youll be entitled to your rant.
Did you ever consider you might just have **** presentation skills, and its not us who are being picky **** as you so eloquently put it?
And yes, its not a problem in Engineering.
Having a bit of consideration and respect for the person who will end up marking the work of you and your peers in basic common sense and decency.
For what its worth, very very little marks are given for presentation. However a badly written/ messy report screams of lazyness to the marker and can lead to them taking a more critical view of your work.
Try to make things easy for them and you will be rewarded.

notjim

fiddlesticks: Spelling mistakes may be caused by dyslexia; you should be careful never to mark a student down for poor spelling! Good spelling is yesterday's talent and in my view caring about spelling is a form of intellectual laziness.

As for marking, if you don't know why you got a bad mark, you should always ask, people who mark should always be prepared to explain their marks, it keeps them honest!

fiddlestick

notjim wrote:

fiddlesticks: Spelling mistakes may be caused by dyslexia; you should be careful never to mark a student down for poor spelling! Good spelling is yesterday's talent and in my view caring about spelling is a form of intellectual laziness.

As for marking, if you don't know why you got a bad mark, you should always ask, people who mark should always be prepared to explain their marks, it keeps them honest!

A dyslexic spellchecker....thats a new one on me.
Well done microsoft, youve exceeded yourselves again!
Markers are informed of any students who have special needs with regards to writing reports, be they dislexic, deaf/blind whatever, and this is taken into account.

You are entitled to your view on 'intellectual laziness', never the less it doesnt make you right.It is quite simply one of the stupidest things Ive ever heard.
I would imagine some one from the english department would disagree strongly with your comments , let alone from the engineering department.
You are correct about one thing, though, everyone is entitled to know/discuss their mark.Never be afraid to ask.

notjim

I imagine the engineering department cares more about relevant skills than about spelling; the english department may be different. As for being told about students' dyslexia, the number of students registered as dyslexic is far less than the number estimated to have it, nor is the definition of dyslexia which entitles you to be registered as dyslexic and given extra exam time broad enough to include those who have naturally poor spelling from having very mild dyslexia. Further I would be suprised if the list of special needs students is always circulated to all people involved in marking before they have done any marking.

If you are marking for eg maths, mark the maths and mark points of presentation relevant to mathematics, but leave the spellings alone; when you are marking a spelling test, mark the spellings.

Endymion

fiddlestick wrote:

A dyslexic spellchecker....thats a new one on me.
Well done microsoft, youve exceeded yourselves again!
Markers are informed of any students who have special needs with regards to writing reports, be they dislexic, deaf/blind whatever, and this is taken into account.

You are entitled to your view on 'intellectual laziness', never the less it doesnt make you right.It is quite simply one of the stupidest things Ive ever heard.
I would imagine some one from the english department would disagree strongly with your comments , let alone from the engineering department.
You are correct about one thing, though, everyone is entitled to know/discuss their mark.Never be afraid to ask.

No need to be hostile. His view on intellectual laziness is one I actually share. In engineering the goal is not to demonstrate linguistic skills, but rather your problem solving skills and knowledge. Presentation is important in this regard, spelling is not. For a marker to focus in on spelling of all things to deduct marks would be highly unfair, and I've never seen an example of that. Spelling is fairly trivial and the marker would want to be one hell of a tight ass to think other wise.

fiddlestick

would you all please read my posts in context.How was I being hostile?Someone implied I was a ****, and another intellectually lazy! Im standing up for my point of view.
The point is, if you dont spell properly in a report, which may I add need not be completely full of maths, and in fact project reports have alot of writing in them, then you are not exactly painting a good picture of yourself now are you?The point is clarity and tidyness will help the person marking your report,and in turn help you.If thats your opinion on spelling god help you all when you go to work in industry.
Thats all.

Crash

fiddlestick wrote:

....

My apologies mate, but I do think you have picked me up in the wrong way (as well as this being a point of contention for me at the moment so i'm obviously a bit bleh about it) - I'm not obviously referring to all PG students. what i'm simply saying is that as a first year undergrad you should not be afraid to challenge it if you feel the decision is wrong.

as for me, I have generally always gotten great marks in my lab reports :P

the situation I speak of is an ongoing one for at least the past 3 years in one CS course, and one PG student who has been previously complained about in particular in the last two years. deals with issues such as having a stated 6/10 marks for presentation, replies to students when queried about having lost 5 or so marks were "oh, it was probably cus you used two different coloured pens" and other such wonders.

In first year I was too wussy to question, last year I encouraged those in first year to question as much as possible though.

and tbh its not that much of an issue, and has rarely if ever come up in relation to any other PG supervised labs, except this lab and one PG in particular.

Oh, have forgotten to add, this is in a course where NO guidelines have ever been given to students re: reports, despite repeated requests.

Usually its "...you want a proper one, er look at his. he got 10." - highly inconsistent and disgraceful behaviour IMO.

and fiddlestick: I did not imply you were a ****, as you so eloquently put it, and if you are that thin skinned that a read a general if statement as directed at you, then that also isn't my problem.

Endymion

fiddlestick wrote:

would you all please read my posts in context.How was I being hostile?Someone implied I was a ****, and another intellectually lazy! Im standing up for my point of view.
The point is, if you dont spell properly in a report, which may I add need not be completely full of maths, and in fact project reports have alot of writing in them, then you are not exactly painting a good picture of yourself now are you?The point is clarity and tidyness will help the person marking your report,and in turn help you.If thats your opinion on spelling god help you all when you go to work in industry.
Thats all.

Your reply to crash was grand, however notjim was neither attacking you, nor postgrads. Merely pointing out his views on spelling.

I have never seen a marking scheme in the engineering department where spelling was allocated marks, so why would poor spelling result in docked marks?

enda1

I agree with the fiddle guy. Try submit an article to a peer reviewed journal with basic spelling mistakes and see how far you get. Presentation is very important and is a highly regarded skill. You don't need to compromise knowledge and aptitude for presentation, they are not mutually exclusive.
Do both and you will do best!

Edit: sp. heh

Endymion

enda1 wrote:

I agree with the fiddle guy. Try submit an article to a peer reviewed journal with basic spelling mistakes and see how far you get. Presentation is very important and is a highly regarded skill. You don't need to compromise knowledge and aptitude for presentation, they are not mutually exclusive.
Do both and you will do best!

Edit: sp. heh

We're not talking about a peer reviewed journal. We're tlaking about reports/lab write up's.

enda1

yeah but our whole training is to prepare us for the real world. Bad spelling is very unprofessional.

Endymion

enda1 wrote:

yeah but our whole training is to prepare us for the real world. Bad spelling is very unprofessional.

Yes, unprofessional, like students even. Come off it, spelling is trivial compared to the content of your reports.

enda1

dont think yur listening. its preperatin for when these things really do matter.
You shoul do both. present well and have good content. Good ideas are useless unless you can present them well.

fiddlestick

&#231 wrote: »

My apologies mate, but I do think you have picked me up in the wrong way (as well as this being a point of contention for me at the moment so i'm obviously a bit bleh about it) - I'm not obviously referring to all PG students. what i'm simply saying is that as a first year undergrad you should not be afraid to challenge it if you feel the decision is wrong.

as for me, I have generally always gotten great marks in my lab reports :P

the situation I speak of is an ongoing one for at least the past 3 years in one CS course, and one PG student who has been previously complained about in particular in the last two years. deals with issues such as having a stated 6/10 marks for presentation, replies to students when queried about having lost 5 or so marks were "oh, it was probably cus you used two different coloured pens" and other such wonders.

In first year I was too wussy to question, last year I encouraged those in first year to question as much as possible though.

and tbh its not that much of an issue, and has rarely if ever come up in relation to any other PG supervised labs, except this lab and one PG in particular.

Oh, have forgotten to add, this is in a course where NO guidelines have ever been given to students re: reports, despite repeated requests.

Usually its "...you want a proper one, er look at his. he got 10." - highly inconsistent and disgraceful behaviour IMO.

and fiddlestick: I did not imply you were a ****, as you so eloquently put it, and if you are that thin skinned that a read a general if statement as directed at you, then that also isn't my problem.

Right, lets put an end to this.You are completely correct about encouraging ug's to question their marks, this everyone should do. I am also sorry to hear about someone docking 5 marks for using different coloured pens,or some other flippant excuse, thats just madness!What i was saying , was that messy presentation(Im talking smudged pencil drawings, with scrawly black pen comments,blotty ink,word documents with numerous mistakes, sometimes all at once) just makes life tougher for the marker, especially when the subject is quite technical. The idea is to find out how much a student knows or understands about a particular subject, and if this is impeded by a messy report it is more difficult for the marker to do so.I have only ever given warnings for bad spelling, but when you see the cut of some things handed up that look like they have been written by a six year old, never mind a twenty year old !, you just get a little dis-heartened!
As for the ****, was this a sh^it comment or that hideously discourteous c word!?I appreciate it wasnt a personal attack, but it did seem so to me!
Im just trying to get my point accross, that a little time and effort on the students part, saves us all a lot of time at the end of the day.
Happy Hugs to everyone and to the fresher who asked the question in the first place....enjoy your time in engineering, it was the best four years of my life.I hope you think so too!

Endymion

enda1 wrote:

dont think yur listening. its preperatin for when these things really do matter.
You shoul do both. present well and have good content. Good ideas are useless unless you can present them well.

I hear you, your wrong. There are specific courses that deal with how to layout and construct a technical document. Lab write up's/reports are only concerned with presentations in so far as the report is readable and concise. You're not trying to teach the students how to spell, your demonstarting an RLC circuit or Rigid body mechanics, thats your concern.

Crash

Hrmm, I might move the entire report marking bit of this other than the original question and a couple of replies off to a completely different thread.... this has become slightly cluttered.

enda1

No ones trying to teah you how to spell. Your mammy should have done that for you. You shold apply lessons learned in one courses to the other. Dont disregard what youve learned just cause the american bitch said it!

I just feel taht the best way to present you point of view in anything handed up to college is to format it properly; gollow a good structure and spell correctly. I feel it stands to you later and its better to get into the habit now.

Crash

Funnily enough fiddlestick, I would completely agree with you on the aspired to level of presentation, I know how hideous it is to read horribly laid out etc. reports.

The one thing i've found weird though is when the report HAS to be handwritten. I'm a computer scientist. Its now been 2 years since i've had to handwrite to any degree of proficiency. I now scrawl. its terrifyingly cruel :P

notjim

Again with the spelling: poor spelling, as opposed to messy presentation, is a specific disability - mild to severe dyslexia - which is completely disjoint from the skills many engineers and computer scientists will use in their careers; to mark someone down for spelling errors would disadvantage people suffering from this disability, either diagnosed or undiagnosed. Interestingly, this disability may actually positively correllate with higher ability in some of the core competences required by many, or even most, careers in these subjects.

I hope noone marking reports in technical subjects punishes poor spelling without specific discussion with the lecturer responsible for the course.

I should have kept my own view about spelling seperate from the more important point about dyslexia, but it is that being proud of good spelling is like being proud of your hair colour; sure, its nice, but it doesn't correllate with your other abilities and is kind of an old fashioned skill, like being able to foxtrot well, or speak classical greek.

Nietzschean

fiddlestick wrote:

....

And the posts get milder, i think reading neil's post first thing in the morning may not have been great [though looking at it now it would be pretty inflamatory to any pg reading it]


As for spelling, i can't spell to save my life, so hand written reports in the past have somewhat suffered from this but i do have the common decency to run any typed report through a spell checker.
(for the record over 4 years of college through several types of courses i've never been marked down for poor spelling...though at least 70% if not more like 90% of my class have pretty piss poor spelling)

And enda1, as has been said, peer reviewed journal vs lab report or something? eh people don't aim for anything like the same clarity or presentation there. Certainly not in the lower years of uni anyway...

who's the american bitch btw?

fiddlestick

Id just like to clarify that I have never marked anyone down for bad spelling.Usually in what I have marked intensly,(ie: something time consuming like a project report which gets me irked up the most,)where the report was an absolute scrawl, 2-3 marks out of 100 would be lost for bad layout, and general messyness...and they'd get a big red spelling comment on their front page.
Id like to thank enda for the back up!, The point we are trying to make is, with respect to spelling, in the big bad world when you go working for a company, they will expect you to be able to spell! Imagnie spending a repurt arround to ur fello co workers/clietns typed like I just typed the last few words?
I would imagine your boss wouldnt be too happy!
Same goes for academia, you are meant to be an adult...college is to prepare you for work/life so why not use what you know!
Oh and BTW sorry for splitting your thread!

notjim

quote:
Same goes for academia, you are meant to be an adult...college is to prepare you for work/life so why not use what you know!

And just to keep saying this: good spelling doesn't mark you out as an adult, it marks you out as someone who isn't dyslexic and, further, many careers that follow an engineering or cs degree including those which most acutely exploit the core skills these courses teach, do not require good spelling. For example, good spelling is a very poor predictor for success in academia and many highly successful academics have really crap spelling. Interestingly, it is also a poor predictor for good writing style, many people with good spelling write unreadable prose.

Crash

Actually, in fairness within academia some of the worst spellers i've seen have happened to be lecturers of mine. some of the sets of notes or emails I've recieved have been near illegible.

fiddlestick

notjim wrote:

quote:
Same goes for academia, you are meant to be an adult...college is to prepare you for work/life so why not use what you know!

And just to keep saying this: good spelling doesn't mark you out as an adult, it marks you out as someone who isn't dyslexic and, further, many careers that follow an engineering or cs degree including those which most acutely exploit the core skills these courses teach, do not require good spelling. For example, good spelling is a very poor predictor for success in academia and many highly successful academics have really crap spelling. Interestingly, it is also a poor predictor for good writing style, many people with good spelling write unreadable prose.

Do you work for dyslexics ireland or something?
Get over your obsession for christs sake.
Almost all engineering jobs require report WRITING and most of these jobs will lead to management positions which will require the ability to spell.

Nietzschean

you lot keep harking about jobs and academia, yet most of the worst spellers i know are in good jobs in both sectors. When it comes down to it, writing an important memo or something there is spell checkers.


And they take an interest because a huge number of us in our respective courses are at least mildly dyslexic. so get off your high horse, good spelling is not required to excell in business or academia.

Endymion

Nietzschean wrote:

who's the american bitch btw?

Of how I wish I could ask the same question

fiddlestick

Nietzschean wrote:

you lot keep harking about jobs and academia, yet most of the worst spellers i know are in good jobs in both sectors. When it comes down to it, writing an important memo or something there is spell checkers.


And they take an interest because a huge number of us in our respective courses are at least mildly dyslexic. so get off your high horse, good spelling is not required to excell in business or academia.

Im not on any high horse. Im just pointing out the need to spell.
Out of interest , how many people are mildly dislexic?

Nietzschean

fiddlestick wrote:

Im not on any high horse.

Could have fooled, me and apparently quite a few others...

Im just pointing out the need to spell.

And i'm pointing out that despite me probally having less spelling skills than many kids leaving primary school i still do fine with academic reports , and reports for industry, as do many people i know.

Out of interest , how many people are mildly dislexic?

The whole point of mildly is that they tend not to be diagnosed with it, generally diagnosis only really happens for the severe cases of it, to hazard a guess at my class i would guess in the region of maybe 30-40%

Tacitha

I would have a problem with the idea that all weak spellers are dyslexic, even “slightly dyslexic”: no-one is born knowing how to spell, and if, as an adult, you have trouble spelling, it may mean you are dyslexic (trouble processing symbols), it may mean your recall of correct spelling has deteriorated as you exposed to less material written in standard English (happened to me), or it may mean that you have never learned to spell a certain number of words.

I’ve had basic training in teaching dyslexic children, and one thing that was stressed is that you can’t make a diagnosis on the basis that a child can’t read, or can’t write. You have to first try to teach them (and then there are arguments on how you teach, of course). In many cases, they haven’t been taught, systematically and at an age when they could grasp the concepts involved. Likewise, poor spelling. Maybe it’s dyslexia. Maybe it’s about information that hasn’t been learnt.

As for how this should affect marking – I wouldn’t mark down or criticize for poor spelling, but I would draw attention with a pencilled correction to every instance of it. I’m not entitled to know whether a student is dyslexic: that’s confidential information, and they need to tell me if they want me to know. So I can’t know whether I’m marking work by someone who has serious difficulties, or by someone who just needs to check a few words in the dictionary. But since part of the point of correcting work is to improve the next effort, why not draw attention to problems? Spelling is a skill, useful, though not the be-all and end-all of education – and if we’re marking work, we’re being paid to help students with knowledge and skills.

fiddlestick

Nietzschean wrote:

Could have fooled, me and apparently quite a few others...


And i'm pointing out that despite me probally having less spelling skills than many kids leaving primary school i still do fine with academic reports , and reports for industry, as do many people i know.


The whole point of mildly is that they tend not to be diagnosed with it, generally diagnosis only really happens for the severe cases of it, to hazard a guess at my class i would guess in the region of maybe 30-40%

Im not on any high horse. I am pointing out that I have experience in marking students reports, and am saying it is important.After all, there ARE marks allocated for spelling in some Cases. See my first post on the Engineering thread where this started for the context.
You sound proud of the fact , that you have worse spelling skills than primary school leavers?. I think embarrassment would be the word to use here.
Are you saying that students standards should drop after attending university? That they should learn to spell in primary school, and by the time they leave university, they have lost this most basic of all lifes skills?
As for spelling in industry,whether you want to believe me or not, The lack of spelling ability will have an affect on your career,I speak not from my own opinion, but from the opinion of more senior employers/(engineering in my case) than me, who are actively involved in recruiting for their company.
Imagine going to a recruitment event for a company. You are sitting there, doing some tests, maybe aptitude or general intelligence tests, something where you have to handwrite your answers. Your lack of spelling ability causes you to make several mistakes on your answer sheet.
I promise you, your application will be the first in the bin.

Having expounded on your lack of spelling skills, do you not think it slightly rude to be explaining the meaning of 'mildly' to someone? By your own admission you are not in any position to be doing this!
I fully understood what you meant, and that is why I asked for the amount of people who are generally considered to be dyslexic....according to you!
30 - 40%??I would surmise that an expert would point to perhaps 5% of the general population as being dyslexic mildly or otherwise, and a further similar number or perhaps 10% more being undiagnosed or misdiagnosed as non-dyslexic. Can you perhaps point me in the direction of your qualifications for making this 30-40% statement, perhaps even, you could tell me your own experience of marking reports?

Nietzschean

frankly i really cba replying to that aggressive ****e. And given Tacitha made really the only usefull post in the last age i'm locking this.