Protein Values

Tiesto

Hi all.
Ive been back in the Gym about 3 months now, doing weight excercise only..
Just some stats, im about 5 ft 10, weight about 12.5 stone, 21 years old, athletic figure
Ive been taking the following product : X-treme muscle gainer
If u click the link u can see the nutritional value. Its got a high protein value of 25,5g per 30 gram portion.
Im going to the gym around 4-5 times a week and aiming to get muscley, but not very, just a good shape.
The muscle gainer I have is nearly all gone and i need to order more. Im just wondering would i be better off simply ordering the X-treme Whey Protein

Im taking a shake usually 3 times a day... once when i wake up, once before the gym and once after.... This also springs a question to mind.. If im not going to the gym a particular day, shud i take any shakes at all..

Im also curious about how helpful creatine is in bodybuilding.. How often should it be taken when taking whey protein too. Also there are so many different types of creatine, which one should i use if i was to use some.
Thanks

Cravez

This also springs a question to mind.. If im not going to the gym a particular day, shud i take any shakes at all.

On days when your not training still have your shakes, preferably 3 times daily(one morning, one miday and one before bed) as it will help you getting more protein in your body to rebuild and help recouperation. And they key word is EAT! just eat as much clean carbs,protein and healthy fats you can get your mitts on.

Im also curious about how helpful creatine is in bodybuilding

Creatine is probably one of the most used supplements in most athletic sports but benefits bodybuilding greatly. Creatine main purpose to supply your muscles with back up ATP energy therefore allowing you to train better for longer, in conjuction with drinking alot of water along with creatine might also put on some water retention on your body aka "water weight", making you heavier.

How often should it be taken when taking whey protein too

Creatine is most effective taken 30 minutes before a workout, preferably take 5 grams of powered Monohydrate put into a shaker. If you want it to work effectively a bit more, take some after a workout as well.

Also there are so many different types of creatine, which one should i use if i was to use some.

The most widely used and most popular form of create is Creatine Monohydrate. Preferably get powered form as powerded tabs are more expensive and liquid creatine isn't as effective.

I wouldn't be bothered ordering any protein off the net unless its Fitness Ireland. I heard they are selling a 12lb bag of whey protein for 89.99 euros which is a VERY reasonable price for protein.

And also i wouldnt train for 5 days a week, 4 at MOST! and training should be no longer than an hour a session. click the link on my sig to go to a a site affiliated with some of our boards members, it has very good information on bodybuilding and other such related sports and you'll find alot of information there and you're free to ask any questions.

Hope it works out for you

Cravez

insane drummer

yea what michael said is right! make sure your taking in enough calories during the day to, around 3000 a day. and take rests between workouts.

Tiesto wrote:

Im also curious about how helpful creatine is in bodybuilding.. How often should it be taken when taking whey protein too. Also there are so many different types of creatine, which one should i use if i was to use some.
Thanks

isnt creatine illegal in ireland? i herd it puts water into your mussles as michael said, but as soon as you stop taking it, the acces size it gave ur mussles makes them go the size u would have been with out it. i also herd because your heart is a mussle it would put excess water in it also, closing the chambers a little bit. is this just speculation or is it actualy true?

Tiesto

thanks very much for that info.
Very useful and straight forward..
The only question i need answered now is which to use..
the xtreme muscle gainer or the xtreme whey protein..
Also is there a big difference between some brands having 23 g of protein and some having 25, i mean does that 2 make a big difference?

also cud u gimme a list of clean carbs, proteins and healthy fats. What foods would u recommend..
thanks for the info

justsomebloke

Tiesto wrote:

the xtreme muscle gainer or the xtreme whey protein..

Trtuthfully there isn't that much difference between the 2 of them as far as i can see that would make a huge difference to you so which ever is the cheapest.

Also the reason some protein will have 23g of protein per serving instead of 25g is generally just to help keep the cost of bulk but protein powder down, For example big Whey Prox (i.e. the 6lb tub) has less protein per serving size then their 4lb tubs but the cost per lb of the 6lb is a lot cheaper then the 4lb containers so even though you may have to add a little more to your shake to getthe same amount of protein it still works out cheaper.

Also as Michael said check around on price as there are some good deals out there. If you are buying on Line check out fitness Ireland, other then that you can pm easygainer as he also does good deals on protein, and if you want to buy it from a shop Mickk has his shop of camden street beside slatterys and does 5lb tubs of EAS for around €50 and Jon has his shop in Phibsborough opposite Dr Quirkys

edit: just saw that you are based in Galway so fitnessireland.ie is probably your best bet if you want to try a different brand

daveirl

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zappb

I've also heard very bad things about Creatine - that would put me off using it - all from people in athlethics - they say it throws hormones out of whack, when you stop using it you get fat etc...

I've heard that from a few different people, however - it's probably one of the most well researched supplements on the market, so it should be fairly safe.

justsomebloke

zappb wrote:

I've also heard very bad things about Creatine - that would put me off using it - all from people in athlethics - they say it throws hormones out of whack, when you stop using it you get fat etc...

Just cause somebody does athlethics doesn't mean they actually know anything about nutrition, If they have done there own research on creatine and aren't just spouting some sh1te that they heard then yes at that point maybe listen to them. It's the whole once a body builder stops lifting all the muscle turns to fat crap. No the fact that they didn't change thier diet to account for their less active lives is the reason they got fat

Cravez

Creatine is not illegal in ireland, i don't think its illegal anywhere in the world because Creatine is a natural product. We create creatine naturally in our bodies (only about 1 gram daily though) and we get creatine from foods such as meat and fish (however most of the creatine is destroyed due to cooking). I havent heard any reports myself about it effecting the heart with excess water, the only thing i can imagine creatine would do to your heart is make it pump a bit more faster if your training more intensely. I'd be more worried about creatine and its affect on the kidneys when not taken properly. If your looking for a creatine product make sure its got some nutrients in the product like carbohydrates, this will help creatine absorb alot easier and will be alot easier on the kidneys and again drink plenty of water throughout the day.

The only question i need answered now is which to use..
the xtreme muscle gainer or the xtreme whey protein..
Also is there a big difference between some brands having 23 g of protein and some having 25, i mean does that 2 make a big difference?

Firstly before i recommend a product the main aspect of buying protein is Quality not Quantity. In retrospect 2 grams between the two products isnt much of a difference unless one product is better than the other. For example id rather go for the product that had 23g of protein and it had whey isolates and had all the amino acids and BCAA's(Branch-Chain-Amino-Acids) than a product that had 34g of protein per serving and had very little amino acids. So from my example, the first product is much better and the protein is much higher quality than the second product even though the second product would have more grams of protein.

i would recommend that you buy some Pro-X, either from any Health Matters store or buy it online at www.fitnessireland.ie. Pro-X has 24g of protein per serving and has a full amino acid profile and BCAA's and since its an irish made product its much cheaper than most other brands of the same quality.

also cud u gimme a list of clean carbs, proteins and healthy fats

I'm still trying to brush up on my own diet myself but start a new thread about a good diet and many of the boards members here have their diets perfected and alot better than mine. However i can still give you some advice on diet.

i) Complex Carbohydrates

Reason to eat: you should be eating dense & complex carbohydrates to help bulk up and build muscle.

Sources: Wholegrain Pasta & Rice, Oats, Porridge, Wholemeal Bread.

Avoid: White bread, white pasta and white rice.Not that they are bad its because since they have been processed alot more they arn't as nutritious as wholegrain or brown.

ii) Protein

Reason to eat: Protein is the main food to eat to build muscle. If lifting weights and want to put on muscle weight eat 1 gram per pound of bodyweight at least, everyday.

Sources: Lean Steak, Lean or Grilled Chicken, Turkey, Fish, Nuts,Peanut Butter,Eggs(preferably Egg Whites).

Avoid: Ham, Fatty Steaks,More than two egg yolks daily. Although i would agree on not eating fatty steaks i would eat Ham if its there,its poorer quality than the sources above but if you dont have alot of the above sources you cant get picky

iii) Healthy Fats

Reason to eat: Healthy Fats(Mono & Poly unsaturated) and Omega Oils are used in the bodies product of hormones such as testosterone. Fats are naturally high in calories and useful to adding more calories to your diet.

Sources: Oily fish, nuts, vegetable oil (small amounts),Peanut Butter.

Avoid: Saturated Fats, Mayonnaise

Grams to Calories
Carbohydrates: 4 Calories per gram
Protein: 4 Calories per gram
Fats: 8 Calories per gram

The Split

What is the split?: Your Daily split of Calories between Carbohydrates,Protein & Fats

Example of a 4000 calorie daily split based on a bodybuilding split plan;

40% Carbohydrates- 40% Protein- 20% Fats

In Grams;
Carbohydrates: 40% = 1800 calories /(divded by) 4 calories = 450 grams of Carbohydrates Daily

Protein: 40% = 1800 calories / 4 calories = 450 grams of Protein Daily

Fats: 20% = 800 calories / 8 calories = 25 grams of fat daily.

This split is unrealistic to most people who have started lifting weights as they find it hard to obtain such an amount of protein. I would Recommend a split like this on a 3500 calorie diet;

40% Carbohydrates- 25% Protein- 35% Fats

In Grams;
Carbohydrates: 40% = 1925 calories / 4 calories = 481 grams of Carbohydrates Daily

Protein: 25% = 875 calories / 4 calories = 218 grams of Protein Daily.

Fats: 35% = 700 calories / 8 grams = 87.5 grams of Fats Daily

This is a much more realistic daily split plan, this ensures your getting enough protein which reasonable amount of fats and alot of carbohydrates.


I'm sorry its such a long read but i wanted to be clear and precise and not have it in one rambling essay, but what i have written there is the basics of nutrition for your training, study it and then make adjustments to your diet.

hope this helps!

Cravez

Tiesto

Thanks for the info guys..
really appreciate it..
I cannot really buy off Fitness Ireland because im no longer living in Ireland.
Im in Germany at the moment so could someone please look at this website
and recommend a product for me. I was looking at the first product, looks pretty good. Its got 21 g of protein and all the essential amino's. Looks pretty cheap too...
The pro star whey protein also looks like a decent product.
And if u got time after that could you have a look at the creatine products and recommend something for me
thanking u in advance.

rubadub

zappb wrote:

I've also heard very bad things about Creatine - that would put me off using it - all from people in athlethics - they say it throws hormones out of whack, when you stop using it you get fat etc...

Sounds like your mates got good information, from a good website, but missed the bit saying "common myths" at the top of the page...


Always beware of protein per serving, it should be protein per 100g you are interested in. I could call my serving size 500g and it would appear to have lots of protein, just like food manufacturers always quote minute portions so it appears their food has very little calories.

rubadub

Michael Cravez wrote:

Avoid: Ham,

What is so bad about ham? I have heard other posters say it is not much use too. But most I see is less than 4% fat and 15-20% protein

Michael Cravez wrote:

Sources: Oily fish, nuts, vegetable oil (small amounts),Peanut Butter.

Avoid: Saturated Fats, Mayonnaise

True, but I will just add that people could always make their own mayo with better fats, tastes better too.

Cravez

rubadub wrote:

What is so bad about ham? I have heard other posters say it is not much use too. But most I see is less than 4% fat and 15-20% protein.

I didn't really say anything bad about ham, as i said if ham is there id eat it however it should not make the bulk of your protein requirement as it's considered a "poor" quality protein; as in the protein from the ham is going to be half used by your body and probably half unused and therefore waste and discarded from the body, while with high quality proteins the body uses the full amount of protein its digesting. Eat ham if you want and until its comming out your ears im just recommending that you eat better sources.

iregk

Further on the whole Creatine argument is something my GP said to me yesterday that took me back a touch. I take monohydrate creatine and was in the doctors office yesterday with a pain in my back,side and front. It kind of wrapped around. Anyhow he diagnosed a kidney stone. He knows I'm a cyclist and go to the gym quite a bit so he asked what I take. I told him protein supps and creatine.

Lets just say his face changed when I mentioned creatine. According to him and according to the top heads in the irish medical boards Creatine is in the process of being banned in ireland! Now CEE (creatine ethyl ester) is already banned in France and Germany but monohydrate isn't. Apparently the first long term studies are coming out now on the effects of Creatine and as he tells me over users that had been on it for about 10 years it was like dipping your kidneys into a deep fat fryer!

I've been on the stuff only for about a year and I was told that it can cause kidney stones, breakdown over prolonged periods of they kidney walls and basically destroy your plumbing. In fairness he said to me your usage in terms of time is fine, anything a year or under isn't too bad but its the prolonged use he said that causes serious damage.

Now I will be honest and say that I've no idea if everything he has said to me is true as I haven't had a chance to check it out but I tend to believe my local GP rather than some guys in the gym. I've since in the last 24hrs stopped using creatine and quite frankly that scared the s**t out of me. Its also not my intention at all to scare monger anyone else I just thought I would pass on what I was told!

g'em

I'm still not sure why there's such a hoo-ha about creatine all the time. Creatine is a nitrogenous organic acid that naturally occurs in anything with a back-bone and helps to supply energy to muscle cells. It's made mainly in the liver by the use of parts from three different amino acids - arginine, glycine, and methionine. It's constantly being investigated as a possible therapeutic approach for the treatment of muscular, neurological and neuromuscular diseases, and so far, the results have been promising.

And of course its been used by athletes to improve performance, via muscle enhancement. After a (very quick) search through PubMed, I haven't found any articles realting to the 'dangers' of creatine supplementation, be it with mono or CEE. If anything, most of the research would imply that the effects of creatine on your average athlete are not particualry noteworthy, and may actually only be hugely of help to the elite classes. For bodybuilding it could be a different story, as it's been shown with more success to actually increase muscle size as opposed to performance. Like I said, that was just a quick search and if anyone can find anything that suggests that creatine is the evil supplement that some people make it out to be, I'd love to read it. Personally I take CEE and I like it. Along with the arginine, taurine and caffeine that are also in the supp, it helps me in the gym, simple as.

It's true that over-consumption of protein can do damage to the kidneys, but that's virtually always only seen in people who have a pre-exisiting renal problem.

rubadub

iregk wrote:

He knows I'm a cyclist and go to the gym quite a bit so he asked what I take. I told him protein supps and creatine.

Lets just say his face changed when I mentioned creatine. According to him and according to the top heads in the irish medical boards Creatine is in the process of being banned in ireland!

I would be just as worried about my choice of GP as the creatine. Did he ask you how much you were taking? Did he say how much the people in the studies were taking?
Doctors are viewed as godlike by some people, never wrong, never to be questioned. Whereas other professionals who repair and diagnose things are often queried, like mechanics or plumbers.

I would have asked him for a copy of the journal.

Are you planning on giving up red meat now?

I wonder what other substances you take would have made his jaw drop, booze, smokes, salt, I am sure there are plenty of journals condemning them too...

I would advise anybody to do their own research on any substance they plan on consuming, then weigh up the benefits and disadvantages for themselves.

St Johns Wort is banned in Ireland, cigarettes are still legal....:rolleyes:

Cravez

would be just as worried about my choice of GP as the creatine. Did he ask you how much you were taking? Did he say how much the people in the studies were taking?
Doctors are viewed as godlike by some people, never wrong, never to be questioned.

I agree here totally, i went to my GP before i knew alot about Creatine and i asked him about it what he told me was " Creatine has the equvilent(sp?) amount protein of eating 24 steaks, why you would want to ingest something that had that much in it?" i took him seriously as he was a 'GP' but when i found out what Creatine really was and what it does it was obvious that GP didnt know anything about it.

daveirl

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t-ha

iregk wrote:

Apparently the first long term studies are coming out now on the effects of Creatine and as he tells me over users that had been on it for about 10 years it was like dipping your kidneys into a deep fat fryer!

I have access to most medical journals & I can't find these studies. Could you get me a DOI for them next time you're speaking to him.

iregk wrote:

According to him and according to the top heads in the irish medical boards Creatine is in the process of being banned in ireland!

This wouldn't surprise me - I don't think the Irish Medicine Board have ever been too concerned with having scientific backing for their decisions.

Leon11

We had John Tracey, Olympic Silver Medalist I think, in our college giving a talk on the "importance of regular fitness during youth" well something like that, anyways the subject of young athletes 16-21 taking protein supplements to help develop growth and help improve recovery time came up.

He was very anti-supplements and was amazed when I told him that at least 90% of people 16-21 at a high rugby level would have taken supplements at some point to help development.

Decided to tell me that there was no research at all in protein or creatine (I dont take this) and that we we're doing irreversible damage to inside our bodies. I questioned him to this and put forward some arguments but alas no avail he was set on thinking.

The guy actually talked a lot of sense and was spot on bar the supplement discussion

TerrorFirmer

I was at the doctors recently with a fairly serious problem and she asked me was I taking any supplements. I said just protein supplements, she asked did it contain creatine, I said yes, the rest, iregks post pretty much sums it up...

Dragan

Ah yes, i love GP, 50eu for 5 mins for either a perscription, your stiches out or a referral to A and E, and on the way they will tell you about the dangers of creatine.

The simply fact is the in Ireland, the local GP is out dated, out moded and needs to catch up with the medical needs and habits of the people in his/her catchment area.

I have seen some improvements in many GP's over the years, but a lot of them leave a lot to be desired.

It should also be noted that is the Medical Communtiy in Ireland and the Pharmaceutical Industry was anymore in bed together they would be one big weird pile of f*ck so expect the Medicines Board to do what is best for interested parties pockets, not the people.

iregk

Dragan wrote:

It should also be noted that is the Medical Communtiy in Ireland and the Pharmaceutical Industry was anymore in bed together they would be one big weird pile of f*ck so expect the Medicines Board to do what is best for interested parties pockets, not the people.

That is very true actually!

It was just something that took me back. t-ha, I will try and get that ref from him, he is a young and fairly sound doc so shouldn't say it would be too much of a problem.

Patto

Michael Cravez wrote:

Avoid: Saturated Fats, Mayonnaise

You should not avoid Saturated Fats. You should eat a balance between Saturated, un-saturated and poly-unstaurated fats. Its better to use saturated fats (butter, coconut oil) when cooking as they are more stable.

A diet high in Saturated fats is bad for your heart but they should not be avoided. Transfats and deep fried fats should be avoided.

Tiesto

so my new supplies of creative monohydrate and whey protein came today.
I havent used the creatine before. It tells me i should take three portions (1 portion = 5 capsules) spread out over the day... I take 3 portions of protein throughout the day aswell so is it ok to take the protein and creatine at the same time? Also is one only suppose to use creatine for a couple of weeks and then lay off for a while or?
Thanks.

iregk

Yes. With creatine you go through a loading phase (no evidance to actually sugest that this works however!) then you go through maintanance phase. The loading typically lasts for 5 days and maintanance anywhere from 6-12 weeks. Then you should lay off for a month and repeat.

daveirl

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Tiesto

iregk wrote:

Yes. With creatine you go through a loading phase (no evidance to actually sugest that this works however!) then you go through maintanance phase. The loading typically lasts for 5 days and maintanance anywhere from 6-12 weeks. Then you should lay off for a month and repeat.

how many should i take in the loading phase and how many should i take in the maintenance phase?

daveirl

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iregk

Tiesto wrote:

how many should i take in the loading phase and how many should i take in the maintenance phase?

Look on the side of the tub, it will tell you what teh dose required is. The loading phase I have never done it, like I said no evidance to suggest that it actually works so simply start off on the normal dose.

Tiesto

Hi guys,
so i have been taking creatine monohydrate for the last week now.. things have been going grand... it does make me feel stronger and i can lift more in the gym but i have been havin some weird side effects.
ive been getting a cramping pain in my stomach all evening.. i took 1 dose of creatin today intending on going to the gym but i didnt go because the weather was too bad.. so i went to work and whilst at work i started to get the cramp.. i drank lots of water and went to the toilet (there was a little cramping pain when using the toilet) and after that it was grand for a while.. Just after getting home from work after a couple of hours since i had the cramps and im gettin them again....
anyone experience anything like this?

daveirl

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Tiesto

when im at the gym i drink plenty of water, but thats about it.
Doesnt mention anything about drinking plenty of water on the container...

iregk

How much water would you drink per day. Its advisable to drink about 2 - 3 ltr of water a day when your not exercising. Obviously when in the gym keep drinking.

Dragan

Tiesto wrote:

when im at the gym i drink plenty of water, but thats about it.
Doesnt mention anything about drinking plenty of water on the container...

One of the main results of creatine is that water gets drawn into the muscle along with the ATP....hence the volumising effect of creatine in some subjects. If your not drinking enough water than it's gonna have to take this water from the intestinal tract...hence the discomfort for your here.

Answer, drink more water.

daveirl

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daveirl

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Tiesto

ok thanks for the info guys...
im gonna hit the tap now....
I hope thats all it is cos i kinda have the cramps again today...
I read somewhere that the intake of creatine could possibly lead to kidney problems such as kidney stones... etc etc...
I was aware of this information before i started to take creatine... I just dont really believe it.... thats why it didnt worry me.
??

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Tiesto

how long does it take for the cramping to go? ive had it 4 days now and stopped taking the creatine since... Its not as bad today as it was yesterday...

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Tiesto

i was taking less than the recommended dosage..
it says take 1 dose (5 capsules) 3 times a day
i only ever took 2 doses a day.. sometimes only one...