Music Challenge??????

nohshow

Is there any room here for a kind of Music Challenge along the lines of the Comics forum's Comic Creator Challenge and the photographers' Photo Challenge?

I've seen a couple of guys posting their music here recently and got to thinking about this as something that might be a bit of fun and then I thought how complicated it would be and then I thought "would it be complicated?" and this was just before I wondered "who'd be interested in putting their time into such a thing" which resulted in me thinking, "well me for a start".

The Practicals:

The other boards start with a subject and/or a style, but not everyone here is a composer or songwriter. In fact, everybody has so many different skills that a subject heading starting point would be pointless. So, how about starting with a Backing Track, which could either be submitted by different people every month or stolen from guitarbak.com or whatever. Maximum duration, 2 mins; MP3 format to accommodate dial-up limitations.

Now, writers can write to it, singers can sing over it, guitarists can guitar, bassists bass, keyboardists keyboard, saxophonists sax off, multi-instrumentalists show off, and drummers make a lot of noise to compensate for their deprived childhoods and thus release a lifetime's stored baggage of pent-up aggression. (Now I realise that the backing track has to be made available with each of these things separately absent, which may complicate things a little - even so, if it's worth doing it's worth plugging in the computer and getting it done quickly.)

The Process:

Starting from the backing track, add your party-piece OR with the backing track as a starting point create your own backing track (remembering the maximum submission duration). You can write or re-write the song, you can change the tempo and loop parts, you can re-sample or anything you're into.

You have a month.

Send the result to whoever's dumb enough to undertake administration for it (did I say "dumb"? I meant "really dumb") where it can be posted at some appropriate location to let us all check out each other's contributions. Then we vote for our favourites, remembering at all times to be kind and not to be snobbish about equipment (particularly), congratulate ourselves and each other before getting ready for the next one.

The Point:

We're musicians. We need to share more.

Anyone think this could work? Anyone willing to get the ball rolling? Has it all been done before and failed? Am I a voice crying in the wilderness or a hippy visiting the Mall for the first time? (Hey, man! The colours! Wow!)

Doctor J

See Recording/Mixing/Collaboration Forum

There were a couple of attempts but when it came time to walk the walk, nobody followed it through.

nohshow

Jeez, Doc, you read fast!!

Copyright was probably one of the main objections. It shouldn't be, though, if we're all sensible.

In Recording/Mixing/Collaboration I see a lot of people going suggesting it for commercial reasons (I haven't read every thread there, of course, so I might be missing something), I'm suggesting it for fun, personal development and the possibility to learn from others. Anyhow, like I say, if a few people get interested to begin with, I reckon a lot would become interested over time.

I haven't actually done the market research or anything so I haven't a leg to stand on if the Dragons ask me for a five year plan ...

Doctor J

It wasn't anything other than people saying they'd do something but then not doing it and the collaboration part died on its arse. Go to the initial threads when the forum was created, there were two, possibly three threads regarding collaborative tunes, after an initial interest when it came time to actually doing parts it fizzled out.

That forums was initially pitched as a collaborative forum for Boardsies to make music together.

sei046

ye there wasnt enough official organisation. It needs to be organised etc.

MagnumForce

I dont think he's suggesting collaborating at all, he's talking about whoever wants to get involved all starting out with the same backing track and doing their own thing to it by themselves and submitting it to be judged separate from all the other entries, at no time senting it to another person for them to add anything to it, therefore it wouldnt be a collaboration at all and would definitly not belong in the recording/mixing/collaboration forum, unless you want to say that it belongs there because its being recorded and mixed but would be a foolish thing to say because the mixing and recording isnt the object of the activity

Doctor J

sei046 wrote:

ye there wasnt enough official organisation. It needs to be organised etc.

If people say they're going to do something, they should do it. I don't think anyone should be lumbered with the role of babysitter, chasing people looking for tracks. If someone posts a track up looking for collaborators, surely it is up to them to make sure their track gets finished? The OP is the manager of their track.

Regarding the name of the forum, don't let that put you off MF, the forum was, as I said, initially started as a collaboration forum, this kind of thing, but the more technical side of it got the traffic, the collaboration side faded away.

sei046

There wasnt enough organisation on any front is what i mean.Tracks were started and not finished

Doctor J

I know. I remember all the folks who said they would get involved and contribute but never did. My point is though, that surely the person who contributes the tune in the first place has to own the responsiblity of completing it? It's exactly the same on the GS collaboration forum, people say "I'll do a bass track" or whatever and two months later nothing has happened. Someone needs to own a track ( in regards to managing, mixing & producing and putting all the pieces together) and kick ass to get if finished, or it won't get finished.

In principle, it's a great idea no question, in practice, sadly in my experience only a small percentage of people follow through and complete what they say they would do. The pain in the arse of chasing unreliable people outweighs the satisfaction derived from the end result IMO.

The_g-man

This could work if it started nice and simple, I'd be happy to add some keys to a few of these. Use a poll to check what style of track people would be interested in adding to, and go with the ones that get the highest numbers. Worth a shot anyway.

nohshow

By God!, I'm sorry I said anything!

MagnumForce wrote:

I dont think he's suggesting collaborating at all, he's talking about whoever wants to get involved all starting out with the same backing track and doing their own thing to it by themselves and submitting it to be judged separate from all the other entries

Bang on, MagnumForce. That's ALL I'm talking about, but if I'd known it was going to fan the dying embers of a completely different flame I wouldn't have suggested anything at all.

nohshow

Doctor J wrote:

sadly in my experience only a small percentage of people follow through and complete what they say they would do

I seriously think you've missed the point, Doctor J. Please have another read of what I actually suggested. Nobody chases the Comics Creators or the Photographers, no one is being pressured into providing anything that others might depend on. It's a game. It's fun. It's what musicians do to let their hair down, jam against a backing track.

Seriously. Please read my suggestion, because your replies don't seem to have any bearing on it at all. If it's a naff idea, let it be a naff idea on its own merits.

Collaboration isn't mentioned anywhere in, and has nothing whatever to do with, what I said.

Doctor J

I don't think it's a naff idea, please read what I said. I am merely saying that this sort of thing has fallen through before because too many people talk the talk but don't put the graft in. If you want to go ahead with it, fire away. You asked if we thought it would work, experience tells me it's unlikely but I'd be delighted to be proven wrong.

nohshow

Doctor J wrote:

I am merely saying that this sort of thing has fallen through before because too many people talk the talk but don't put the graft in

Which sort of thing? Collaborations again? I can understand that, but what has it to do with the subject of this thread? Do you never practice your bass? Have you never recorded your practices? Have you never thought you played well that day?

It was by reading what you said that I discovered you hadn't read what I initially suggested. I'm truly sorry that you didn't refer back to my first message before sending your last reply. Perhaps we should leave it there.

If anyone else, like MagnumForce, gets what I'm talking about, maybe you could PM me and we'll get a proposal together that the good Doctor can't misconstrue.

Doctor J

Cool the jets man. Please read what I write here. I understand what you are trying to do and I am using the history of the collaboration forum as an example. You do not expect people to actively collaborate on parts together. I understand completely. In my experience, a lot of people initially respond positively to something like this (ie - something gets put up and people are invited to work on it in their own time), but when the time comes to deliver the goods, to produce an end product, they frequently find they've bitten off more than they can chew (or more accurately more than they could be arsed actually doing). That is my point. The parallel is people saying they will record something but rarely follow through. Whether they collaborate with Jesus or each other is irrelevant. The point is expecting people to put in the hours required. It's not nice but that is how I've seen things go on more than one occasion in similar circumstances. Again, I say am answering where you ask if I think it will work. You have my answer. Sorry to rain on your parade and be the nasty man here, but in my experience unless someone takes control of the entire thing and pushes people to finish, it frequently doesn't finish. As I have said more than once, I think it is a good idea but I would be surprised if you are presented with completed works within the timeframe you have specified. OK? I hope this clears up any confusion and we can all get on with our lives.

nohshow

Yep. Fair do's. You do get it, after all. My apologies for impugning your integrity. Clearly musicians are a different breed of artist from illustrators, writers and photographers. But can red-lighting a jam really take that much longer than just jammming along to a track? I only ask because I actually make a point of recording my own practice sessions at least once a month to gauge my level of improvement (or otherwise). And it gets a little tiresome working from the available repertoire of stuff I enjoy - hence the "challenge" aspect of the title. As a contributor to the Comic Challenge, I find the discipline both important and enlightening.

Anyway, I take it you're not on board, then.

Beecher

I personally think this is a great idea. This way people wouldnt be restricted to play in a certain style and it may promote people to put recordings up. Its definitly worth a shot and im definitely in.

MagnumForce

using collaboration as an example against this was confusing and timewasting. Collaboration challenges i can understand would be a bad idea because you are waiting around for other people to do their part, but this is all on the one person so either they do it or they dont, theyre not handing it on to anyone and expecting a return, if they dont do it then they dont do it and thats their problem and they most likley arent going to get pissed off at themselves for not doing it, and if they dont do itnthen no one will have even known they were thinking about it so no one else will be disapointed or pissed off either.

Alot of people record their stuff anyway, so i dont see a problem with assigning a task and a couple of people following through with it and if only even one person does then at least everyone else will get to listen to it.

Copyright would be an annoying issue if using backing tracks of existing songs.

P.S. I want absolutly no part in the admin of this project

Doctor J

It wasn't confusing for me, someone putting up a track and other people doing their thing with it is a pretty straightforward concept, I think, especially since the OP did propose a deadline which by it's very nature imposes some sort of time based expecation. It's not really that complicated, nor that big a ****ing deal. I fail to see what the drama is. If a negative response is so dreadful, the question of feasability shouldn't have been asked and I was merely offering my experience on the matter. This is, after all, a discussion forum and my word is no more relevant than anyone elses but I like to help where I can and was trying to steer people away from the previous failings of a basically similar proposal. But anyway, enough of this irrelevant bull****, let's see how ye all get on, eh? Good luck with your endeavours

leninbenjamin

this sounds pretty cool.... i hope you get something going

MagnumForce

This so isnt gonna happen...:D

nohshow

Agreed, MF. Listen, guys, forget it. If an idea doesn't get mod support it isn't likely to fly high or far. A mere 50-something poster hardly has sufficient cred to attract the big-hitters like KarlHungus or Feylya (just for example, I have no idea if they'd have even wanted to get involved, anyway) without some support and the idea, however basically simple, has some complexities that need to be addressed. Let's bag it and tag it. Sorry to have bothered you all.

Finally, MF, Beecher and g-man, thanks for getting it and for your support.

Beecher

nohshow wrote:

the idea, however basically simple, has some complexities that need to be addressed. Let's bag it and tag it. Sorry to have bothered you all.

The complexities seem to be easily overcome. Backing tracks would need to be composed by a member of boards to overcome copywrite issues, preferably with a midi version of the track attatched so everyone can edit it as they please. Then people just need to find somewhere to host their finished tracks like yousendit or soundclick or putfile.

I did start one of the initial collaborations but a hard drive failure caused me to lose all the original files so I basically gave up on it but if a few of you are interested in this I could easily have an original backing track thrown up in the next few days. Even if three or four of us took part this time maybe more will do it the next.

Doctor J

nohshow wrote:

Agreed, MF. Listen, guys, forget it. If an idea doesn't get mod support it isn't likely to fly high or far. A mere 50-something poster hardly has sufficient cred to attract the big-hitters like KarlHungus or Feylya (just for example, I have no idea if they'd have even wanted to get involved, anyway) without some support and the idea, however basically simple, has some complexities that need to be addressed. Let's bag it and tag it. Sorry to have bothered you all.

Finally, MF, Beecher and g-man, thanks for getting it and for your support.

It has nothing to do with mod support and my comments have nothing to do with me being a mod or your post count, so please lose the victim complex. All I am trying to do is steer you away from the problems that have beset similar (but not exactly identical) ideas. I don't understand why you are reacting like this. I have been involved in projects like this in the past and, as I keep saying, somebody needs to take control and push people to complete it or generally nothing happens. This is my opinion, it is not the rule of law, it is not Boards policy, it has **** all to do with being a mod, it is nothing but my own opinion based on my experience. It's very simple. Please take that on board. I am trying to prevent people wasting their time. Sorry if it sounds negative but it's based on plenty of negative experiences. I am trying to offer you practical advise which would help you complete such a project.

If you think it's a good idea, then you run it or somebody volunteer to run it. It's not up to me or any of the other mods of this or any other forum to manage this. We moderate this forum, we do not hold everyone else's hand through whatever musical endeavours they choose to We will assist you when practical but if you're expecting someone else to manage it, you are basically pointing out exactly why so many of these type of things have fallen flat in the past, which is a shame.

You haven't bothered anyone and if you consider the frank exchanges of opinion that have taken place bothersome then you need to re-evaluate what has been discussed in this thread. This is a discussion forum. People are allowed to disagree.

I seem to keep repeating that I think this is a good idea and I'd like to see it happen (for a change) which you seem to choose to ignore. However I have enough on my plate as it is so I don't have the time to be involved and I'm not going to bull**** anyone and say I'll do something when it just isn't possible for me to actually follow it up. I say again, if you think it's a runner, then actually do something about it

fish-head

As my dad always said, if it doesn't work out first time then it's probably not worth your while.

nohshow

I just told myself if someone still came back after my last message and sounded still interested that I'd recant my defeatest attitude. Okay, let's think it through:

Beecher wrote:

The complexities seem to be easily overcome. Backing tracks would need to be composed by a member of boards to overcome copywrite issues

Agreed. The composition needn't even be too complex. A basic track featuring a pretty chord sequence and back-beat. Something that leaves space for a drummer or for a bassist to join in as well. Come to that, I've no problem drawing from my own back-catalogue of backings with variations for the addition of bass, drums, guitar, voice, whatever, if we know who's taking part.

Beecher wrote:

preferably with a midi version of the track attatched so everyone can edit it as they please

Also MIDI files are tiny and easily distributed.

Beecher wrote:

Then people just need to find somewhere to host their finished tracks like yousendit or soundclick or putfile

This is where I bow to your greater expertise. Tell me more. Is it free? Can anyone from a Linux user to Windows 98 access these?

Beecher wrote:

Even if three or four of us took part this time maybe more will do it the next.

So do we have one or two more? Maybe we can get this thing going, after all. Who's in?

Beecher

nohshow wrote:

This is where I bow to your greater expertise. Tell me more. Is it free? Can anyone from a Linux user to Windows 98 access these?

Yes they are all free and will work on anything from Windows 98 to Linux. Yousendit is just a file host but putfile and soundclick have players so users can just click to stream each others songs. Putfile Example.. I can also host files on my own webspace.

Ill get a backing track up in the next few days (it would be sooner but I have work commitments) and we'll see how it goes from there

nohshow

putfile works for me. Cool stuff. No hurry on the backing track, a couple of days suits me fine. I'm planning my future this weekend.

feylya

Nohshow, I'll tell ya what. If you want to go ahead and do this, please, by all means, go ahead. I'm sure we could sort out a sticky in the playing forum if there's enough interest. But let me make you understand. There is to be absolutely zero copyright material. This is your project. If people don't follow up, they don't follow up. Whinging and moaning in this thread will do nothing.

Bottom line - if you want to do something about it, do something.

!_Brian_!

I'd be well up for it but I dont know how to record what I play over a backing track.


If theres a track uploaded and I can work out how to record my stuff over it and post it up, count me in!

judas101

!_Brian_! wrote:

If theres a track uploaded and I can work out how to record my stuff over it and post it up, count me in!

ditto for me

Beecher

Recording isnt too hard. They are many free sequencers available and free amp simulators so this is something everyone can take part in. I can write up a tutorial later.

Now about doing a backing track, what type of music do people want to write? Personally I usually compose prog rock songs and have tracks ive already written that could be used straight away if people wanted. Short example, this is just an intro, verse and chorus. Everything there is a vsti (virtual studio instrument) so things can be taken out or edited as needed.

If people would be interested in something like this that would be great! I dont however expect everyone to be fans of that style and can easily write something different according to what people want. Anyway let me know

ferdi

nohshow wrote:

guitarbak.com

what is this, i cant find it

knowing the posters here, if this idea took flight, it'd be prog rock so i'm out anyways

Raptor

Sounds like a pretty good idea alright, count me in.

Of course, my previous attempts to record have sounded somewhat less than stellar, but hey!

The Freeman

!_Brian_! wrote:

I'd be well up for it but I dont know how to record what I play over a backing track.


If theres a track uploaded and I can work out how to record my stuff over it and post it up, count me in!

i'm in the same situation as brian,i'd love to get involved when i get broadband in the gaff in the next week or 2 but all i have is...

computer

electric guitar

amp



i don't have a clue how to record or to even upload sound files on the net,and i'm sure there is a few others that are on the same boat.


so i think a stcky for this info could be make or break for this idea;)

nohshow

I'll put together a simple layout/diagram/chain for recording yourself for anyone who needs it. Starting from the assumption that everyone, as a minimum requirement, can get their hands on a software recorder (there's a version of Audacity for all platforms and it's free - have a google), a microphone and/or connecting cable (1/4" jack to mini-jack probably, in most cases), the trick is to play one track while recording another and that's really not a big trick at all.

How do you go about creating a sticky? Anybody know?

nohshow

MagnumForce wrote:

This so isnt gonna happen...:D

Hard to say at this stage. It looks like it's starting, anyway:rolleyes: .

!_Brian_!

I was arseing around with this a bit more last night after and found a program called Reaper through Google. Free simple recording thing. I plugged my guitar into a zoom 505 thing I'v lying around and plugged that directly into the soundcard in the mic slot using a step down converter. Didnt sound very good but I was able to record a rythem track and a lead track over it. Will I be able to play a backing track through this and record iver it in the same manner? Also, is this healty for my soundcard? Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live I think.

MagnumForce

!_Brian_! wrote:

I was arseing around with this a bit more last night after and found a program called Reaper through Google. Free simple recording thing. I plugged my guitar into a zoom 505 thing I'v lying around and plugged that directly into the soundcard in the mic slot using a step down converter. Didnt sound very good but I was able to record a rythem track and a lead track over it. Will I be able to play a backing track through this and record iver it in the same manner? Also, is this healty for my soundcard? Creative Labs Sound Blaster Live I think.

It's grand, thats what its there for like.

Beecher

A good way to get decent recordings on a budget would be to use a sequencer like Kristal. Its free and has vst support. With that then you can then use your computer to generate effects like distortion etc using freeware vsts like Project X or Juicy 77 or Guitar FX. These can produce quite convincing tones.

BOF666

I'd be interested in tryin it, email me if you're going ahead with it
BOF6661@hotmail.com

Fingers Mcginty

I have lot's of original tunes written. I'm gonna dig out a blues tune i was working on a while back. It has rhythm and lead guitar on it already. It needs vox, bass and possibly keys. I'll try and get post it tonight. it's gonna be in mp3 format.

The_g-man

If possible, could you post the rhythm and lead separately, may help people mixing new parts or someone can take the song in a completely different style.;)

Fingers Mcginty

The_g-man wrote:

If possible, could you post the rhythm and lead separately, may help people mixing new parts or someone can take the song in a completely different style.;)

Well the lead is just a solo in the middle

Fingers Mcginty

Well here it is. The format is ......
intro, verses 1 &2 , chorus, verse, chorus, lead break, chorus
balls file failed to upload. The file is 4M...too large or what?

Beecher

You can host it at yousendit.com and just paste the link here.

Fingers Mcginty

ok...think i have it sorted
Try this

http://www.sendspace.com/file/w5g2gk

nohshow

BOF666 wrote:

I'd be interested in tryin it, email me if you're going ahead with it

Beware posting your e-mail addy this publicly, Bof. Use PM instead, it can be a lot handier. I recommend you edit your post.

nohshow

Fingers Mcginty wrote:

ok...Try this

Lovely piece to start, Fingers. 4 meg was ok for me, is everyone else able to get it? Does it need to be compressed any more?

There's plenty of room for lyricists, which I think is a good thing, or soloists of various disciplines.

Finally, can we give ourselves a deadline, like a month from today sort of thing to complete?

I think it may be time to move this thread, folks. If no one objects, I'll work on an intro to the Challenge and post it in Playing/Techniques/Theory. Sound ok?

It wasn't me!

I think it'd be more appreciated in the recording and collaboration forum to be honest.

Fingers Mcginty

It wasn't me! wrote:

I think it'd be more appreciated in the recording and collaboration forum to be honest.

yup...agree with that. Can someone do the honours?