Have EU Imigrants Benefited The Irish Republic?

neolxs

Have EU Imigrants Benefited The Irish Republic?

I for one beleive they havent.

I feel that Sweden, Ireland and the UK were wrong as the only EU Countries to allow the new EU Countries to have unrestricted use of our labour markets.

As only 3 countries allowed the new EU Countries to work in our sector in came a flood of EU imigrants into these 3 EU Countries. If they had unrestricted access to all of the EU then a fairer spread of imigrants would have been created. However as a bottleneck occured in the UK and Ireland we now have increasing Unemployment, Higher Crime rates, Increased levels of people seeking council housing etc.

I recently lost my job only to find that I have been replaced with a low paid EU worker. How many otrher Irish people are going through the same thing?

Students who normally filled all the low paid jobs in summertime, Easter, Christmas are now finding it harder to get jobs as the McDonalds jobs they normally would have worked have been filled by EU Imigrants, Thus putting more burden or parents.

Crime has risen! This is true, I live in Galway and only last week there were 2 Suspected rapes from Foreigners. I previously worked in Castlebar where one of my co-workers were raped by a foreigner! Thats 3 rapes in 1 month!

Unemployment is rising! Check the statistics.

In Galway city there is a 8 year yes 8 year waiting list for Housing!

In the village where I live, there were 20 affordable house built. 16 were given to EU imigrants!

EU imigrants who have kids not living in Ireland can claim our Child benfit! To give you an idea, in Romania the average yearly wage is €3,000 per year. If you have 1 child and you work in Ireland but your family live in Romania and you have 1 kid you can claim €2560 in Child benefits per year without even working! Thats Right a EU Citizen can earn there average yearly wage for 1 child by sitting on the bum claiming child Benefits!

Most EU Imigrants are low paid. which means they can claim FIS, which means that the Irish Tax payer is funding low paid EU WORKERS WHO PAY NO TAX!

EU POLISH ELECTRICIANS RECENTLY were working at the ESB powerplay for less that the miniumu wage, which meant that IRISH Electricians who must pay or receive the minimum wage and need to live on this were outpiced of the contract!

Ireland is living in a false economy with construction funding our economy, but there can only be so many Houses/appartments buit and rented out before our Economy goes bust, and with the increasing burden on our benefits sysyem with low paid EU workers how long do YOU THINK THIS WILL TAKE?

OUR Hospitals are at breaking point because they cant cope with the increased levels going through them, Where do you think the increased levels came from?

People say that the Irish Economy needed these EU workers, But I say that The so called Celtic Tiger was in full swing before these EU workers turned up and I certainly dont remeber 1 Irish Business going bust without these workers.



The fact was that they had to pay better wages to recruit good Irish workers.

Where Now all they need to do is pay peanuts for someone who cant speak hardly any English.

And to Make my Point the other day I was in Duune Stores in Roscommon, who a had a EU Imigrant on there customer services desk. I asked a question only to get the reply "I dont speak much English!, Hang on ill get a manager".


And we have all heard bout the extra benefits Foreigners to our shores receive that arent available to Irish citizens,
Socialising money, Money to but a car, Fasttracking of our benefit system, Mobile phone money, Monet to buy a pram etc......
Need I say MORE!

rlogue

Certainly the immigrants from eastern Europe have benefitted the Irish economy. They are generally hard working, will accept lower wages than their Irish counterparts and won't cause a ruckus by joining trade unions and going on strike.

And far from restricting any EU immigrants, I'd welcome more of them. For instance, we could revoke the licences of the Dublin taxi drivers who seem hell bent on wrecking the Ryder Cup and inviting the taxi drivers from Budapest to come and take over the Dublin taxis. Before long they'd work out how to get around the city and concentrate on making an honest crust rather than acting like a bunch of fat bowsies bawling about their "roights" in the street!

neolxs

rlogue wrote:

Certainly the immigrants from eastern Europe have benefitted the Irish economy. They are generally hard working, will accept lower wages than their Irish counterparts and won't cause a ruckus by joining trade unions and going on strike.

I would agree EU Workers are hard working, But are you seriously saying that Irish People arent?

Will except lower wages? Of course they will, €3.00 per hour is a kings ransom back home, they dont plan long term living in Ireland and send most of there money back home with all the Irish benefits that they can claim, whilst living 5-6 to a house thus lowering there overall living expenditure.

They cant join trade unions because there employers wont let them, But remember the moneypoint Fiasco when some of them did start moaning and had to be backpaid? But meanwhile the Foreign company that employed them, still got to keep there contract despite them basing there figures on lower than legal wage limits. Whilst all the Irish companies who obeyed the law are tendered with the correct wage structure lost out!

And far from restricting any EU immigrants, I'd welcome more of them. For instance, we could revoke the licences of the Dublin taxi drivers who seem hell bent on wrecking the Ryder Cup and inviting the taxi drivers from Budapest to come and take over the Dublin taxis. Before long they'd work out how to get around the city and concentrate on making an honest crust rather than acting like a bunch of fat bowsies bawling about their "roights" in the street!

That im afraid is called Living in a democracy, where people have rights. We are all entitled to demonstrate or go on strike if we wish, and as for the Ryder cup being spoilt, Im afraid the weather seems to be doing that for us!

gandalf

neolxs wrote:

Have EU Imigrants Benefited The Irish Republic?

Without a doubt they have.

I for one beleive they havent.

Thats your opinion and its valid if what you say below is true.

I feel that Sweden, Ireland and the UK were wrong as the only EU Countries to allow the new EU Countries to have unrestricted use of our labour markets.

As only 3 countries allowed the new EU Countries to work in our sector in came a flood of EU imigrants into these 3 EU Countries. If they had unrestricted access to all of the EU then a fairer spread of imigrants would have been created. However as a bottleneck occured in the UK and Ireland we now have increasing Unemployment, Higher Crime rates, Increased levels of people seeking council housing etc.

Actually I believe that we and the UK and Sweden by allowing unrestricted access have got the cream of the crop of these EU citizens. Of course it would be fairer to allow them access to the whole of Europe and I believe they will in 2007/2008.

I recently lost my job only to find that I have been replaced with a low paid EU worker. How many otrher Irish people are going through the same thing?

Have you complained to the Department of Enterprise, Local TD's the media?

Where did you work and what kind of work was it?

Students who normally filled all the low paid jobs in summertime, Easter, Christmas are now finding it harder to get jobs as the McDonalds jobs they normally would have worked have been filled by EU Imigrants, Thus putting more burden or parents.

The problem is alot of these businesses need employees that are available when it suits the business, in alot of cases students don't meet this fit and Irish workers on the whole now look down on these jobs.

Crime has risen! This is true, I live in Galway and only last week there were 2 Suspected rapes from Foreigners. I previously worked in Castlebar where one of my co-workers were raped by a foreigner! Thats 3 rapes in 1 month!

And how many rapes in that area were carried out by Irish? I know of quite a few Irish women who have been raped by Irish men. Most never reported them. There are bad eggs in every race. Please provide backup to these alleged rapes please, a link to a media report would be good.

Unemployment is rising! Check the statistics.

No I expect you to provide details of them, after all you are making the claims. So please provide proof of what you are saying.

In Galway city there is a 8 year yes 8 year waiting list for Housing!

In the village where I live, there were 20 affordable house built. 16 were given to EU imigrants!

Come to Dublin if you want to see waiting lists.

And as for your village do you have proof of this or is this the gossip going around the local grapevine?

EU imigrants who have kids not living in Ireland can claim our Child benfit! To give you an idea, in Romania the average yearly wage is €3,000 per year. If you have 1 child and you work in Ireland but your family live in Romania and you have 1 kid you can claim €2560 in Child benefits per year without even working! Thats Right a EU Citizen can earn there average yearly wage for 1 child by sitting on the bum claiming child Benefits!

Firstly Romania isn't in the EU yet so they are not entitled to child benefit yet. Your right though any member of the EU who is working here and has children at home is entitled to it and if they are paying taxes which the majority are then I have no problem with this. Do you have problems with taxpayers getting the benefits they are entitled to?

Most EU Imigrants are low paid. which means they can claim FIS, which means that the Irish Tax payer is funding low paid EU WORKERS WHO PAY NO TAX!

Do you actually have the breakdown of how many are low paid? Again back up what you are saying here please.

EU POLISH ELECTRICIANS RECENTLY were working at the ESB powerplay for less that the miniumu wage, which meant that IRISH Electricians who must pay or receive the minimum wage and need to live on this were outpiced of the contract!

And the company involved was found out and penalised.

Ireland is living in a false economy with construction funding our economy, but there can only be so many Houses/appartments buit and rented out before our Economy goes bust, and with the increasing burden on our benefits sysyem with low paid EU workers how long do YOU THINK THIS WILL TAKE?

Personally I would blame the Government and us the electorate for letting this happen. If there are jobs available then you will get people coming here and as we are part of the EU you cannot stop other EU citizens coming here and working here. Do you want Ireland to leave the EU, maybe we should just take the EU money and not give anything back.

OUR Hospitals are at breaking point because they cant cope with the increased levels going through them, Where do you think the increased levels came from?

If you have actually spent any significant time in Irish hospitals then you will actually realise that there is a shortage of beds because of alot of different factors. We are down around 3000 beds on the 80's, because of inadequate old age care there are alot of what are termed "bed blockers" in the system because there families don't want to pay for private care and because investment in the system is not being controlled and the people in charge do not take responsibility.

People say that the Irish Economy needed these EU workers, But I say that The so called Celtic Tiger was in full swing before these EU workers turned up and I certainly dont remeber 1 Irish Business going bust without these workers.

Well then you don't obviously remember the early 90's a hell of alot of companies went bust.

The fact is the jobs were there, the majority of Irish workers didn't want them and they had to be filled.

The fact was that they had to pay better wages to recruit good Irish workers.

No the fact is that other countries will take these jobs as Ireland is getting too expensive to do business in.

Where Now all they need to do is pay peanuts for someone who cant speak hardly any English.

The same can be said for half this country.

And to Make my Point the other day I was in Duune Stores in Roscommon, who a had a EU Imigrant on there customer services desk. I asked a question only to get the reply "I dont speak much English!, Hang on ill get a manager".

Well given you attitude here I can just imagine what way you dealt with them. What exactly were you looking for at the customer services desk?

And we have all heard bout the extra benefits Foreigners to our shores receive that arent available to Irish citizens,
Socialising money, Money to but a car, Fasttracking of our benefit system, Mobile phone money, Monet to buy a pram etc......
Need I say MORE!

Oh these nuggets, the ones that time over time have been proven to be bull****. Again if you have proof post it here and please make sure its not of the "my mate Barry who knows this other guys says blah blah blah so it must be true" variety :rolleyes:

Strokesfan

I tend to agree with the OP - these three (Ireland, UK and Sweden) countries didn't stipulate just how many people would come - and while there have been benefits - there have been many drawbacks.
My friend and I were on a flight back from London last month and the two stewards behind the counter asked us "Are there any Irish people left in Ireland?" because we were among the only Irish on the flight and they said all they see day in day out is Immigrants filling the planes.
I have noticed the lack of casual jobs in my area due to them being filled by Eastern Europeans and alot of students found it hard to get work during the summer.

I do honestly believe that while the economy is benefiting from it at the moment that it may cause problems in the long run. These people are prepared to work for less so will wages rise appropriately in the future to cover the cost of living and inflation?

I'm not the most informed on this subject but I do find it very interesting.

Sgt. Sensible

neolxs wrote:

I recently lost my job only to find that I have been replaced with a low paid EU worker.

How did you find out what your alleged replacement is being paid?

spanner

gandalf wrote:

The problem is alot of these businesses need employees that are available when it suits the business, in alot of cases students don't meet this fit and Irish workers on the whole now look down on these jobs.

I am sure all these Businesses will be looking for the custom of these students, their family and friends in a while to come and then lets hope that these students show them were to go. I think the system of students working the summer has worked very well for a long time without any problems. the bottom line is Businesses can get away with employing cheap labour below the minimum wages

Come to Dublin if you want to see waiting lists.

In regards to the housing rental market many Irish couples on low wages who have been priced out of the housing market are finding it difficult to find suitable rental property because foreign workers are prepared move in much more people into the house there by increasing the rent. For example in a 3 bedroomed house in my estate there is 15 eastern European people in one house (granted they do not cause any trouble and are all very Pleasant)

And the company involved was found out and penalized.

Gamma construction, Irish Ferries even though they escape Prosecution on a technically. And as was mentioned the contractor for the ESB. The employers may not actively seek foreign workers however since their are many foreign workers prepared to work for much less than the minimum wage the employers will take them on. Proof of this is in the many cases of employers been taken to court for paying well under the minimum wage.

Do you want Ireland to leave the EU; maybe we should just take the EU money and not give anything back.

It seems the other countries of the EU are not respecting the rule of free of movement for labour so it doesn’t seem fair that we have to take the burden of all the new immigrants

Well then you don't obviously remember the early 90's a hell of alot of companies went bust.

The fact is the jobs were there, the majority of Irish workers didn't want them and they had to be filled.

Really, I would love to hear which of the companies in the early 90's closed because of lack of labour. If I can remember right the dole queues where full of people desperate to find work, any employer that advertised a position was inundated with applications. Skilled and educated people left in their droves.

No the fact is that other countries will take these jobs, as Ireland is getting too expensive to do business in.

Workers deserve to be paid a fair wage for the country they live in, the minimum wage is a fair amount to pay and every employer. All these Businesses who give out about paying Irish wages have no problem in charging Irish prices



I am not anti immigration and feel that controlled immigration is beneficial to the Irish economy, However their is currently 250 immigrants coming in to Ireland a day and with Bulgaria and Romanian set to join this will increase (as their GDP are much lower), Ireland is a small country with only 4 million people and we are not able to absorbed these as well as other larger countries, When this slow down in the economy happens does everybody think all the immigrants will go back to their countries, they cant go on to other member states as they are blocked.

I don’t think that Irish people are racist but it is just that their does not seem to be any limit to the amount of immigrants coming in, thus the average Irish worker is worried and with lack of activity to quiet their fears the growth in the far right here is Inevitable. If somebody in leadership has the courage to take on the issue and create a fair controlled immigration system, then their will be less chances of the far right taking hold in Ireland and we would see greater integration of the immigrant population into Ireland

banaman

The short answer is: the businesses that make profits from the labour of said immigrants and, of course, the Exchequer which rakes in taxes without having paid for the health or education of immigrant workers.

So the answer to the question of whether immigration is good for Ireland depends on whether or not you view the benefits to the actors above as equivivalent with the good of the country as a whole.

On the jobs issue, if employers are replacing Irish workers with workers who will work for less, but still above the minimum wage then the fault is with our form of Capitalism, which only looks at short-term profit, not at overall benefits to the wider society.
If employers are paying under the minimum wage then they are criminals and should be prosecuted and publicly shamed, perhaps even boycotted.
In neither case is it the fault of the workers concerned.

On the housing issue the lack of Social Housing should be blamed on the developers who are paying huge sums to local councils to avoid their legal and social duty to provide such housing, see recent press stories. Our government is also to blame for bowing to pressure from the speculators to provide loopholes in legislation which allows the developers to increase their profits at the expense of those who need social housing.

But before we get all self-righteous and blame politicians and developers just ask yourselves who voted for them? Who keeps voting for them?
Answer? We do!

Also we are quite prepared to buy goods that are produced abroad in sweatshops, sometimes by Irish companies, knowing that those who make them are not paid a living wage. Yet if those same people wish to come here to earn themselves and their families a decent life we treat them as pariahs, scroungers, dangerous. To me this is hypocrisy and untenable morally.

One final point if you go to the UK you will find a large Irish community who are immigrants there, they have availled of jobs, council housing, social welfare benefits and the NHS. I am willing to bet that you know, or are related to someone who fits this description. So are you going to tell them to come home to Ireland and stop weighing on the British taxpayers and taking their jobs, houses etc?

I think not. I think you need to examine your attitudes.

Despite the pre-election scaremongering there are numerous UN, EU, OECD and NESC reports that prove that immigration expands an economy creating jobs, profits, economic opportunities and expands the nation's tax revenues.
The debate here should be about how our politicians have/are spending/investing these expanded tax revenues and whether or not the country is getting the improved and expanded public services it needs and deserves.

Unpossible

I thought an influx of cheap labour would help to bring down inflation, but then I dont know much about economics

There are a lot of meanial jobs that need to be filled and Irish people don't want to fill them.

I'd imagine its not so rosy being an eastern european worker in Ireland, you are struggling with living on minimum wage (if you're lucky) you probably have 2-3 jobs, as someone said about 15 people living in one house, and you have to communicate through english everyday.

Andrew 83

Sweden have actually received a very low number of immigrants from the 10 accession states.

Contrary to what you're suggesting immigrants from the 10 accession states aren't given full welfare benefits (I think they should be).

Zombrex

neolxs wrote:

Have EU Imigrants Benefited The Irish Republic?

Yes. Our economy would have crashed years ago if it wasn't for foreign workers.

neolxs wrote:

I for one beleive they havent.

Fair enough. You seem a little biased though ....

neolxs wrote:

However as a bottleneck occured in the UK and Ireland we now have increasing Unemployment,

Do we?

Since Jan 2006 to Aug 2006 the employment rate went from 4.3% to 4.4%. That is a 0.1% increase, well below what you would expect for the sessional shift anyway.

Where are you getting your evidence to support the propositont that unemployment in Ireland is increasing?

neolxs wrote:

Higher Crime rates

Again that doesn't seem to be true. Ireland has always had a high crime rate, but that has actually been dropping slowly.

As for immigration effecting crime in Ireland, you aren't the only one who is worried about this so people have actually been looking into it. The Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza undertook a report that found that the Polish crime rate was dropping because minor criminals were leaving the country, there was no evidence that non-national crime rates in the countries they were going to were rising. So the immigration is actually benefiting both countries, as it seems to be following the long understood social trend that crime drops when employment increases. A lot of these people, who would turn to crime in Poland are turning away from crime in other countries because they can find
suitable work.

neolxs wrote:

Increased levels of people seeking council housing etc.

That has been increasing steadly since the Celtic Tigar made it very hard to own your own home, or even rent.

neolxs wrote:

I recently lost my job only to find that I have been replaced with a low paid EU worker.

What was your job?

How low paid is "low paid". If you were working in a low skill industry I would suggest you get in contact with FAS and try and develop a skill set that will allow you to be more competative in the work place.

And if your old employer is paying this Polish person less than min-wage you should report him.

But look on the bright side. You can now enjoy the lovely social welfare system we have in this country, which seemingly billions of Polish people are flocking to our shores to enjoy. Its going to be great! I wish I was unemployed...

neolxs wrote:

Students who normally filled all the low paid jobs in summertime, Easter, Christmas are now finding it harder to get jobs as the McDonalds jobs they normally would have worked have been filled by EU Imigrants, Thus putting more burden or parents.

Actually, again, they aren't. A survey of a number of colleges in Ireland in 2005 found that university students who wanted a support job had little trouble getting one. But most didn't want a job while studying, and the colleges recommend you don't have a part time job at the same time as being in university.

neolxs wrote:

Unemployment is rising! Check the statistics.

I did. Its not.

neolxs wrote:

In the village where I live, there were 20 affordable house built. 16 were given to EU imigrants!

That would imply that only 4 families in the local population needed affordable housing, since there is no system to give EU immigrants a house before an Irish person, and it would be done on the basis of who was on the list first.

People seem to have this ridiculous idea that the social services staff can just give a house to anyone they want. First you had the rumors that the Nigerians were getting houses first because they were being more hassle. Now you seem to be implying that the EU works are getting houses ahead of Irish people. Why? How would that even work in practice?

neolxs wrote:

EU imigrants who have kids not living in Ireland can claim our Child benfit!

As you can do if you go to any EU country.

Why would Poland pay for a Polish workers children if the Polish person had been living and working in Ireland? We don't give back to Poland the money the Polish workers makes for the economy, and we certainly don't give back the tax they pay, so why would Poland pay for children of citizens they get no tax from?

neolxs wrote:

To give you an idea, in Romania the average yearly wage is €3,000 per year. If you have 1 child and you work in Ireland but your family live in Romania and you have 1 kid you can claim €2560 in Child benefits per year without even working! Thats Right a EU Citizen can earn there average yearly wage for 1 child by sitting on the bum claiming child Benefits!

Romania isn't in the EU, so I'm not quite sure of the point of that analogy.

But I would point out that, as someone who stated they worked in Britian for a number of years, it seems rather ironic that you are giving out about EU citizens doing nothing more than what you did.

neolxs wrote:

EU POLISH ELECTRICIANS RECENTLY were working at the ESB powerplay for less that the miniumu wage, which meant that IRISH Electricians who must pay or receive the minimum wage and need to live on this were outpiced of the contract!

Or be Polish, since the ESB wasn't paying anyone below min wage (not sure how they even could, being a semi-state company), they were employing a German contract firm who were in turn sub-contracting to a private Polish contractor who paid its Polish staff below Irish min-wage.

This is illegal and the contractor agreed to increase pay, as well as back pay, up to min-wage.

neolxs wrote:

Ireland is living in a false economy with construction funding our economy, but there can only be so many Houses/appartments buit and rented out before our Economy goes bust, and with the increasing burden on our benefits sysyem with low paid EU workers how long do YOU THINK THIS WILL TAKE?

Not long probably. But then all the workers will leave for the next boom econonmy, just as the Irish have over the years.

What, you think they will stick around to enjoy are social welfare system? Why on Earth would they do that, we have crap social welfare services. They will move to where the jobs are, and a lot of us will probably go with them.

neolxs wrote:

OUR Hospitals are at breaking point because they cant cope with the increased levels going through them

The only reason our hospitals are still functioning is because of foreign workers.

neolxs wrote:

Where do you think the increased levels came from?

The numbers haven't increase significantly above the general Irish population increase.

People say that the Irish Economy needed these EU workers, But I say that The so called Celtic Tiger was in full swing before these EU workers turned up and I certainly dont remeber 1 Irish Business going bust without these workers.

neolxs wrote:

Socialising money, Money to but a car, Fasttracking of our benefit system, Mobile phone money, Monet to buy a pram etc......
Need I say MORE!

All of which were tabloid miss information or simply lies.

I understand you are upset that you lost your job in Retail Management (what exactly was your job), but blaming EU nationals who did nothing more than what you claim to have done is not only the hight of hypocracy, but it isn't going to get you a job any quicker.

A far more constructive thing to do would be to get in contact with someone like FAS and develop a skill set to allow you to get a higher level job. The vast majority of eastern european workers are entering low skill jobs in Ireland. If you are competting against them then that is your problem and something you need to work on.

And just be glad you don't work in software development. I ain't got anyone to blame if my company up roots to India.

Hobbes

neolxs wrote:

If you have 1 child and you work in Ireland but your family live in Romania and you have 1 kid you can claim €2560 in Child benefits per year without even working! Thats Right a EU Citizen can earn there average yearly wage for 1 child by sitting on the bum claiming child Benefits!

Sorry your totally wrong.

Lets ignore the fact that you mention the person has to be working then claim they are "sitting on thier bum" your still wrong.

1 Child = 150 a month = 1,800 a year.

If they are from the EU then they are entitled to claim for child benefit *EVEN IF* the child is in the home country. However if they claim in the home country it is stopped here or the difference is made up if the home country is lower to Irelands.

If they are not from an EU country then the child has to be living in Ireland to claim.

Also they have to make the claim within the first month of residence in Ireland or they are not entitled to claim.

Prehaps you can explain where you are getting the other 760 euros from. My guess is your just cut and pasting from somewhere.

Most EU Imigrants are low paid. which means they can claim FIS,

You can only claim FIS if you are working under a set amount of money. For example. The person would have to have one Child living in Ireland and earning less then 465 a week.

You can't claim FIS if you have no children or no children living in Ireland. You also have to be paying tax which means you legally have to be getting paid minimum wage.

which means that the Irish Tax payer is funding low paid EU WORKERS WHO PAY NO TAX!

No we aren't. If you think otherwise please feel to back up with facts. The facts above I got from Oasis.gov.ie

EU POLISH ELECTRICIANS RECENTLY were working at the ESB powerplay for less that the miniumu wage

Again can you back that up with something more then a claim? Also as I recall if they are employed then they have to get minimum wage. Its not something you can claim to work for less for.

OUR Hospitals are at breaking point because they cant cope with the increased levels going through them, Where do you think the increased levels came from?

Or hospitals where a mess long before the influx and its not just that. General infrastructure of this country is a joke. I mean we have waiting lists of 4 years to get into school for children.

And we have all heard bout the extra benefits Foreigners to our shores receive that arent available to Irish citizens,
Socialising money, Money to but a car, Fasttracking of our benefit system, Mobile phone money, Monet to buy a pram etc......
Need I say MORE!

No, because your talking total tripe. There is no extra benefit that an immigrant gets that an Irish citizen can't get.

Raekwon

spanner wrote:

I am not anti immigration and feel that controlled immigration is beneficial to the Irish economy, However their is currently 250 immigrants coming in to Ireland a day and with Bulgaria and Romanian set to join this will increase (as their GDP are much lower), Ireland is a small country with only 4 million people and we are not able to absorbed these as well as other larger countries, When this slow down in the economy happens does everybody think all the immigrants will go back to their countries, they cant go on to other member states as they are blocked.

I don’t think that Irish people are racist but it is just that their does not seem to be any limit to the amount of immigrants coming in, thus the average Irish worker is worried and with lack of activity to quiet their fears the growth in the far right here is Inevitable. If somebody in leadership has the courage to take on the issue and create a fair controlled immigration system, then their will be less chances of the far right taking hold in Ireland and we would see greater integration of the immigrant population into Ireland

Excellent post, my thoughts exactly

So will Ireland still adopt its open door policy for the two new member states joining on January 1st 2007? If not there should be at least some entry restrictions in place especially considering Romania and Bulgaria have a combined population of nearly 30 million people. I seriously doubt that Ireland can handle another population explosion.

Hobbes

However their is currently 250 immigrants coming in to Ireland a day

Where is that figure from?

Thats like 91,250 a year (250 extra on a leap year! :eek: ). How many of them leave within a year? That number seems way off even for figures I have seen.

freddyfreeload

neolxs wrote:

...as for the Ryder cup being spoilt, Im afraid the weather seems to be doing that for us!

I'm surprised you haven't blamed the bad weather on immigrant workers as well.

As for whether Ireland is becoming a racist country, I really believe it is. Or at least I believe a disturbing number of the average population are displaying an increasing propensity for racist thinking.

A small example: I'm in Dublin walking along with three colleagues. A car backfires and we all look around. There's a black guy driving it. The other three tut, shake their heads, roll their eyes knowingly. One goes "typical."
Now I've heard and seen a lot of cars backfire with white Irish-looking people sitting in the drivers seat, and no one ever tutted, or said typical.

I believe this kind of thinking is increasing rapidly. And sadly, racist thought leads ultimately to racist behaviour. We're in the early stages at the moment, but I fear the day is coming when Steven Lawrence like incidents start happening here, and people will still keep on trotting out the same trite crap that causes people to think this way in the first place.

ff

Zombrex

spanner wrote:

However their is currently 250 immigrants coming in to Ireland a day and with Bulgaria and Romanian set to join this will increase (as their GDP are much lower), Ireland is a small country with only 4 million people and we are not able to absorbed these as well as other larger countries

Clearly we are able to absorb these people, since we have been doing it for the last 15 years. :rolleyes:

The immigration doo***ayers continue to claim that the crunch is just around the corner. We can't let in the British and Americans, but not the Nigerians. Ok, we can let the Nigerias in, but not the Polish. We can let the Polish in, but by God not the Romanians! .. and so on and so forth

The fact is that if Ireland reaches the tipping point, where jobs are no longer available for all the Romanians or Bulgarians, they simply won't come

Did you ever hear of an Irish person emmigrating to a country where their were no jobs? Of course not.

So why do people believe that jonny foreigner will continue to flood into Ireland if their are no jobs for them. They aren't flooding into Sweden, which has excellent social welfare system, exactly because there are not as many jobs for them in Sweden. Immigrants go where the jobs are. If we start losing jobs in Ireland then they will stop coming, or leave if they are already here, and go to where the jobs are.

Stop worrying.

spanner wrote:

When this slow down in the economy happens does everybody think all the immigrants will go back to their countries, they cant go on to other member states as they are blocked.

They are only blocked for a few years (3 or something). I don't see the economy crashing in 3 years. And if it does immigrants will be the least of my worries.

spanner wrote:

I don’t think that Irish people are racist but it is just that their does not seem to be any limit to the amount of immigrants coming in, thus the average Irish worker is worried

Well then the average Irish worker is an idiot, because there has never been a better time in the history of the state to be an Irish worker, due in large part to foreign investment and immigration into the country.

It seems to me to only be those with a chip on their sholder in general that are "worried" about immigration. These are the people who were worried 15 years ago about all the people from the west moving to Dublin, and now they are worried about people from Eastern Europe moving here. What does that tell you? Maybe that they just like getting pissed off about things, it doesn't really matter what. Some people just get on with it, others decide that it is better to blame all their problems on a scape goat. Immigrants have been used as a scapegoat for hundreds of years, so I suppose it isn't too unusal that they are used today as scapegoats.

spanner wrote:

If somebody in leadership has the courage to take on the issue and create a fair controlled immigration system

We have a controlled, and quite fair, immigration system at the moment. Problem solved.

Zombrex

Raekwon wrote:

I seriously doubt that Ireland can handle another population explosion.

Why?

We seem to be doing perfectly fine at the moment, despite the fact that there are something like 100 billion Polish workers in Ireland (got that figure from StormFront, might be a little off).

neolxs

IMIGRATION FIGURES 1999- 2004

1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Irish 26,700 24,800 26,300 27,000 17,500 16,900
UK 8,200 8,400 9,000 7,400 6,900 5,900
Old Eu 6,900 8,200 6,500 8,100 6,900 10,600
USA 2,500 2,500 3,700 2,700 1,600 1,800
Ro wld 4,500 8,600 13,600 21,700 17,700 14,900
Total 48,900 52,600 59,000 66,900 50,500 50,100

Data from http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/

The number of immigrants into Irleand in the twelve months to April 2006 is estimated to have been 86,900. Some 2000 above our highest ever total back in 2002 where we saw a massive influx in immigration from outside the EU and America.

The Main features of the figures are from,

Nearly half (43%) of immigrants were nationals of the 10 new EU accession states which joined on 1 may 2004.

26% 22,900 of imigrants were from poland whiles 7 % were from Lithuania.

23% of immigrants origianted outside the EU and USA.

More than half of immigrants were aged 25-44 while a further 28 % were aged 15-24. Approx 1 in 10 of the immigrants were under the age of 15.

Data suppllied from the Central Statistics office of Ireland. WWW.cso.ie

Foe years we had a steady rate of immigration into Ireland, When we did receive high numbers they were normally outside the EU so any unskilled workers who did not benefit to Irish society could be deported under Asylum laws. But we no longer have that right with the ten new EU states. There workers can stay here and claim Irish benefits from Day 1.


Social Welfare Expenditure as a Percentage of:
Year Total Social Welfare Expenditure Gross National Income Gross Domestic Product
€m % %
1995 5,332 11.1 10.2
1996 5,558 10.4 9.6
1997 5,744 9.4 8.6
1998 6,046 8.7 7.8
1999 6,283 8.1 7.0
2000 6,713 7.5 6.5
2001 7,842 7.9 6.8
2002 9,517 8.8 7.4
2003 10,493 8.9 7.8
2004 11,291 9.0 7.7
Source: Department of Social and Family Affairs

Opening Statement By the Minister for Social And Family Affairs Séamus Brennan, T.D On the Consideration of The 2005 Departmental Estimates By The Select Committee on Social And Family Affairs
My Department is the biggest spending department in the State, with a budget this year of over €12.2 billion.


The Minister said that the projected level of social welfare expenditure in 2006 will be over €13.5 billion, €1 billion more than in 2005. "This is more than double what was being spent in 1997.

Our overall spend on wellfare every year is increasing, some of you may say this is to provide a better standard of living, but if Ireland is having the increase of population as highlighted above then this is surely why and where wellfare benefits are going. Furthermore we have no actual figures for 2005 and 2006 where the real increase in popluation has come from with the new 10 EU member states.

Take a look at the Gross National income, should Ireland ever be in a position of economic decline our wellfare spend is more than double what it was in 1995, but yet our gross income isnt. We are bodering on the line of Bankruptcy if this should ever happen.

I cant wait to see the 2205 and 2006 figures considering the Irish state only felt that we would have a smaller amount of immigrants from the 10 new EU states.

Has anyone seen any improvement in Hospitals?


I for one havent, Ive seen Casualty charges go up, as well as waiting times. I havent seen any new hospitals being built to cope with the increase in population. I havent seen people on trolleys reduced.

WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS A SYSTEM FAILLING TO COPE AND GOING INTO DECLINE EVERY YEAR.


Recipients of Weekly Social Welfare Payments

Programme 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004
Total Recipients 880,758 869,994 903,375 938,971 959,432 957,732 Data from Department of social and family wellfare.

Again there are no Figures for 2005-06 which include the new 10 EU member states where Ireland has seen its biggest ever influx of imigrants. However you can see thattotal receipients of Social welfare benefits, Where people pay little or NO TAX has increased since 1999!

CRIME

Crime had a increase of 3% Last year. Whiles the increase in crime can not be blamed on Immigrants, you only have to look in your local papers to see who is causing most crime. Rapes, thests seem to be common in Galway due to non Nationals.

bonkey

Wicknight wrote:

The fact is that if Ireland reaches the tipping point, where jobs are no longer available for all the Romanians or Bulgarians, they simply won't come

Did you ever hear of an Irish person emmigrating to a country where their were no jobs? Of course not.

So why do people believe that jonny foreigner will continue to flood into Ireland if their are no jobs for them. They aren't flooding into Sweden, which has excellent social welfare system, exactly because there are not as many jobs for them in Sweden.

My goodness. Its almost as if the whole thing is like a balancing trick.

Nations with job-availability absorb workers from nations with job-shortages.

Im guessing there's some mad feedback there too, where this somehow helps job promotion on the nations where those workers come from and thus that immigration is ultiamtely a short-to-mid-term phenomenon.

I wonder if we took a nation who joined the EU earlier (EC or EEC, say) which was below-the-average in jobs and developmental status, would we see evidence of this? Emigration, net improvement, a resulting cessation of emigration, and perhaps even immigration as it swung above the average?

I wonder if we could find other nations which used to be above the average, which had net immigration at the time, who - for one reason or another - lost their place at the top. I wonder if they would still have net immigration, or if it would also show signs of reversal.

Nah. I must be mad. Thats just crazy talk.

Ireland has always been a rich nation and has a divine right (or something) to remain one for all time. The world just has to learn to deal with that.

Zombrex

bonkey wrote:

Ireland has always been a rich nation and has a divine right (or something) to remain one for all time. The world just has to learn to deal with that.

bonkey

neolxs wrote:

Foe years we had a steady rate of immigration into Ireland,

Yeah. And back then, people complained that it was a new phenomenon too, which was gonna destroy the nation, and all the other doom and gloom you're also predicting.

They were wrong.

When we did receive high numbers they were normally outside the EU so any unskilled workers who did not benefit to Irish society could be deported under Asylum laws.

Not true. Asylum seekers who are unsuccessful in seeking asylum can be deported under Asylum laws. Immigrants cannot, regardless of where they come from.

but if Ireland is having the increase of population as highlighted above then this is surely why and where wellfare benefits are going.

It amazes me that you can find figures for immigration, figures for the total welfare spend, but when it comes to things like finding out the figures which would let you figure out where the welfare benefits are going (e.g. the total number on welfare, the average payout per person, and anything else that might be useful) we just have to guess. and the guesswork tends towards the "we're all doomed" line of reasoning.

Furthermore we have no actual figures for 2005 and 2006 where the real increase in popluation has come from with the new 10 EU member states.

Indeedy. Didn't stop you using a guesstimate on exactly that a few minutes ago though.

Has anyone seen any improvement in Hospitals?

I for one havent, Ive seen Casualty charges go up, as well as waiting times. I havent seen any new hospitals being built to cope with the increase in population. I havent seen people on trolleys reduced.

WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS A SYSTEM FAILLING TO COPE AND GOING INTO DECLINE EVERY YEAR.

Indeed. And of course, this all began when those foreigners started coming to Ireland. Before our large-scale Celtic Tiger-inspired immigration, our health service was great. Hell, it was world reknowned. Even teh Swiss were jealous of it.

Then the immigrants came, it got overloaded and went to pot.

Thats how it happened, right?

Because te other version would be that it has always sufffered from chronic misstructuring and mismanagement, and still suffers from the same, and the only difference is that we've discovered in recent years that throwing money at a problem doesn't fix it when the primary problem is not a lack of investment.

Of course, an explanation like that couldn't be true....there's no immigrants to blame for it.

Recipients of Weekly Social Welfare Payments

Woah! Its, like, most of the figures that you could have used instead of guesstimating whether social welfare numbers have doubled since 1997! Pity you didn't have those when you were making that claim earlier in your post.

However you can see thattotal receipients of Social welfare benefits, Where people pay little or NO TAX has increased since 1999!

Indeed one can see that. Tell me - has the point below which one receives such payments remained static all this time?

And has the net increase in tax-take resulted in this gaining or costing us money? I mean, lets say that over this period, the pay-out has doubled as you say....but the tax take-in has grown by 2x the same amount. We're better off overall, aren't we? It'd be like one set of immigrants were paying for another set and generating more over besides.

You have considered this possibility and discounted it, yes?

Crime had a increase of 3% Last year. Whiles the increase in crime can not be blamed on Immigrants, you only have to look in your local papers to see who is causing most crime. Rapes, thests seem to be common in Galway due to non Nationals.

So, while the increase in crime cannot be blamed on immigrants, its their fault?

Or are you saying its non-immigrant foreigners who are causing the violence and thus we need to do something about the immigrants?

Zombrex

neolxs wrote:

IMIGRATION FIGURES 1999- 2004

1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Irish 26,700 24,800 26,300 27,000 17,500 16,900

Data from http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/

How did 16,900 Irish people emmigrate to Ireland?

neolxs wrote:

Nearly half (43%) of immigrants were nationals of the 10 new EU accession states which joined on 1 may 2004.

Didn't you leave Ireland to work in the UK, under the same freedom of movement and work idea that founded the EU?

neolxs wrote:

Foe years we had a steady rate of immigration into Ireland

No, actually for years we had a climbing rate of emmigration out of Ireland.

neolxs wrote:

There workers can stay here and claim Irish benefits from Day 1.

As you can in any European state. I don't see you doing this though, just like I don't see the Polish doing it either.

If they are immigrating for social welfare why have they not gone to the country with the best social welfare system in the world Sweden?

neolxs wrote:

Our overall spend on wellfare every year is increasing, some of you may say this is to provide a better standard of living, but if Ireland is having the increase of population as highlighted above then this is surely why and where wellfare benefits are going.

Your statistics show that social welfare has been climbing at a stead rate since 1995. What does this have to do with Polish imigration? Poland was not in the EU in 1995. It wasn't in the EU in 2000.

Why are you linking this to immigration. This is IRISH people claiming social welfare. Or you disagree with that as well?

neolxs wrote:

We are bodering on the line of Bankruptcy if this should ever happen.

At which point all the Polish immigrants will be long long gone, and the Irish will be following them fast, to any EU country with a better economy than ours.

Where did you get the rather ridiculous idea that people want to live under social welfare? You are unemployed, but I don't see you going to Sweden to claim unemployment benefit.

neolxs wrote:

Has anyone seen any improvement in Hospitals?

The hospitals began to improve when the foreign nurses started to arrive, about 10 years ago. Without them we would be totally f**ked (I doubt we would have a functioning health service). So naturally we should, er, get rid of all the nurses in case they start claiming social welfare .. umm, u sure about that?

neolxs wrote:

Again there are no Figures for 2005-06 which include the new 10 EU member

Yes there are, I quoted them. Unemployment between Jan 06 and Aug 06 went up by 0.1%.

neolxs wrote:

Where people pay little or NO TAX has increased since 1999!

Lazy Irish bastards. BTW, how much Irish tax did you pay when you worked in England?

neolxs wrote:

Whiles the increase in crime can not be blamed on Immigrants, you only have to look in your local papers to see who is causing most crime.

Well if the increase in crime can not be blamed on immigrants that leaves Irish people. So whats your point?

neolxs

Programme 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004
Old Age 261,281 267,760 276,065 287,395 298,169 303,653
Widow, Widowers and One Parent Families 203,091 206,130 209,011 211,385 211,774 212,952
Child Related 7,640 8,067 12,134 12,696 12,186 11,974
Illness, Disability and Caring 172,104 181,569 193,536 206,137 216,292 227,347
Unemployment Supports 149,705 116,069 126,447 137,982 145,339 131,539
Employment Supports 65,120 64,833 56,582 50,920 44,113 40,136
Supplementary Welfare Allowance 21,269 25,094 29,167 32,073 31,217 29,748
Miscellaneous 548 472 433 383 342 303

Total Recipients 880,758 869,994 903,375 938,971 959,432 957,732

Overall increase in wellfare payments since 1999 till 2004 = 76,224

Irish population growth is around 30,000 per year.

30000 x 5 years (1999-2004) = 150,000
Increase in wellfare payments = 76,224

So in other words 1 in 2 imigrants to Ireland claim Irish state benefits. No really much benefit to the state as a whole I would say!"

Zombrex

neolxs wrote:

Irish population growth is around 30,000 per year.

30000 x 5 years (1999-2004) = 150,000
Increase in wellfare payments = 76,224

So in other words 1 in 2 imigrants to Ireland claim Irish state benefits. No really much benefit to the state as a whole I would say!"

LOL :rolleyes:

Or the far far more plausable explination that more Irish people are claiming social welfare benefits ....

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that since 2004 you have to be resident in Ireland for 2 years before you can claim the majority of social welfare types, such as child benefit.

Since Poland and the 9 other states only joined in 2004 none of the Polish workers in Ireland would be claiming social benefit yet.

Do you claim social welfare?

Hobbes

neolxs wrote:

so any unskilled workers who did not benefit to Irish society could be deported under Asylum laws.

Do you even know the difference between an immigrant and an Asylum seeker? I suggest you go look it up. They are not the same thing.

There workers can stay here and claim Irish benefits from Day 1.

Certainly not from day 1. You think they bop off the plane and say "Which way to the Tax office?! I want to get my PRSI number so I can claim!".

:rolleyes:

Social Welfare Expenditure as a Percentage of:

Ok compare those figures against Growth of the country.

1975-2001 4.2%
1990-2001 6.8%

Looks to me that while social is increasing so is the countrys growth.

I for one havent, Ive seen Casualty charges go up, as well as waiting times. I havent seen any new hospitals being built to cope with the increase in population. I havent seen people on trolleys reduced.

I am not entirely sure how you are blaming this on immigration. If anything the prices have been kept down as a large number of nurses are immigrants and has been for years.

You appear to be taking figures from say section (A) and saying because of figures in section (B) which have no real corrolation that it is the immigrants faults.

There is more then one factor at work in relation to how well Ireland does as a country.

neolxs

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
IMIGRATION FIGURES 1999- 2004

1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004

Irish 26,700 24,800 26,300 27,000 17,500 16,900

Data from http://www.immigrantcouncil.ie/


How did 16,900 Irish people emmigrate to Ireland?

IRISH MOVING BACK TO IRELAND
Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Nearly half (43%) of immigrants were nationals of the 10 new EU accession states which joined on 1 may 2004.

Didn't you leave Ireland to work in the UK, under the same freedom of movement and work idea that founded the EU?

THERE IS HISTORICAL LINKS AND TIES BETWEEN IRELAND AND THE UK. WE ALSO HAVE SPECIAL TREATIES TO ALLOW FREEDOM BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES UNIQUE IN THE WORLD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Foe years we had a steady rate of immigration into Ireland


No, actually for years we had a climbing rate of emmigration out of Ireland.

PRIOR TO THE 90`S YES, BUT WE MOSTLY WENT TO THE UK AND AMERICA WHERE WE HAVE STRONG SOCIAL AND HISTORICAL LINKS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
There workers can stay here and claim Irish benefits from Day 1.


As you can in any European state. I don't see you doing this though, just like I don't see the Polish doing it either.

IRELAND OFFER SOME OF THE BEST BENEFITS IN EUROPE. SHOULDNT IRISH BENEFITS BENEFIT PEOPLE LIVING AND WORKING IN IRELAND WITH THERE FAMILYS. AND NOT BEING SENT BACK TO POLAND TO SUPPORT THAT COUNTRY BECAUSE THERE STATE ISNT AS GENEROUS TO THERE PEOPLE?

If they are immigrating for social welfare why have they not gone to the country with the best social welfare system in the world Sweden?

WHAT IS THIS BASED ON? iN IRELAND A COUPLE WITH 2 KIDS UNDER THE AGE OF 6 CAN RECEIVE €5600 PER YEAR IN CHILD BENEFITS WITHOUT EVEN LIFTING A FINGER. THEN WE HAVE FIS, YOU CAN ALSO CLAME SOCIAL WELFARE WITHOUT NEVER PAYING A SINGLE AMOUNT OF PRSI OR TAX. AND THERE IS THE LANGUAGE TOO. MOST EU CITIZENS LEARN ENGLISH AS A SECOND LANGUAGE. FURTHERMORE SWEDEN DOSENT HAVE CHEAP AIR CARRIERS SUCH AS RYAN AIR OR EASYJET OFFERING CHEAP FLIGHTS FOR 1CENT!
Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Our overall spend on wellfare every year is increasing, some of you may say this is to provide a better standard of living, but if Ireland is having the increase of population as highlighted above then this is surely why and where wellfare benefits are going.


Your statistics show that social welfare has been climbing at a stead rate since 1995. What does this have to do with Polish imigration? Poland was not in the EU in 1995. It wasn't in the EU in 2000.

Why are you linking this to immigration. This is IRISH people claiming social welfare. Or you disagree with that as well?

OUR POPULATION IS INCREASING EACH YEAR DUE TO IMIGRATION. THUS OUR OVERALL SPEND IN SOCIAL WELLFARE INCREASES TOO. HOWEVER FIGURES FOR 2005 AND 2006 HAVENT BEEN RELEASED YET. THESE TWO YEARS COVER THE POLISH INVASION, WHICH ALSO IS THE SAME TIME THAT IRELAND RECEIVED THOUSANDS MORE THAN NORMAL IMIGRANTS FROM THESE NEW STATES. POPULATION IMMIGRATION WAS AROUND 50000, BUT WITH THE NEW STATES JOINING IT IS NOW AROUND 80000.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
We are bodering on the line of Bankruptcy if this should ever happen.


At which point all the Polish immigrants will be long long gone, and the Irish will be following them fast, to any EU country with a better economy than ours.

SO SCREW THE COUNTRY AND GOOD LUCK TO ANYONE WHO SCREWS US OVER?
Where did you get the rather ridiculous idea that people want to live under social welfare? You are unemployed, but I don't see you going to Sweden to claim unemployment benefit.

IRELAND OFFER A GENEROUS WELLFARE SYSTEM. I WAS EARNING €32000. PAYING AROUND €150 PER MONTH IN TAX AND PRSI. I HAVE 4 KIDS.

mY TAKE HOME PAY WAS AROUND €30,000 PER YEAR AFTER TAX AND PRSI. mY TRAVEL EXSPENSES WERE €200.00 IN PETROL PER WEEK AND MORTGAGE WAS AROUND 600 PER MONTH. €9,600 PER YEAR. MEANING i WAS LEFT WITH
AROUND €20,000 PER YEAR DISPOSABILE INCOME.

mOW ON BENEFITS i RECEIVE €343 PER WEEK WHICH IS €18,000 PER YEAR AND i ALSO RECEIVE €600 MORTGAGE SUPPLEMENT PER MONTH WHICH IS 7,200 PER YEAR. mEANING i CAN EARN BY JUST SITTING ON MY ARSE €25,200 PER YEAR. A €5,000 INCREASE BY NOT WORKING!
DONT WORRY I ALREADY HAVE A NEW JOB! SO NO SCROUNGER CALLS! BUT THE POINT SHOWS YOU HOW GENEROUS THE IRISH WELLFARE SYSTEM IS. NOW IF YOU WERE POLISH WOULDNT €25,000 PER YEAR FOR DOING NOTHING SOUND GOOD TO YOU?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Has anyone seen any improvement in Hospitals?


The hospitals began to improve when the foreign nurses started to arrive, about 10 years ago. Without them we would be totally f**ked (I doubt we would have a functioning health service). So naturally we should, er, get rid of all the nurses in case they start claiming social welfare .. umm, u sure about that?

BUT LOOK AT THE STANDARDS, WAITING TIMES, COSTS FOR a&e, THIS IS ALL DUE TO POPULATION GROWTH!
Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Again there are no Figures for 2005-06 which include the new 10 EU member


Yes there are, I quoted them. Unemployment between Jan 06 and Aug 06 went up by 0.1%.

sO UNEMPLOYMENT IS UP. aLBEIT A SMALL PERCENTAGE, BUT THEN LOOK AT THE WELLFARE CLAIMS.i WAS NEVER UNEMPLOYED AS THERE IS A 9 WEEK DELAY IN PROCESSING CLAIMS, I WAS ON WELLFARE PAYMENTS. THAT IS HOW THE FIDDLE THE FIGURES!
Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Where people pay little or NO TAX has increased since 1999!


Lazy Irish bastards. BTW, how much Irish tax did you pay when you worked in England?

I PAID NO IRISH TAX, BUT THEN I DIDNT LIVE IN IRELAND THEN. BUT I DID SPEND MY WAGES ON THE BRITISH ECONOMY AND NOT SEND ALL MY MONEY BACK HOME TO IRELAND! SUCH AS THEPOLISH ETC DO. TAKING MOST OF THERE IRISH INCOME AND SENDING IT BACK TO POLAND AND LIVING LIKE KINGS!

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Whiles the increase in crime can not be blamed on Immigrants, you only have to look in your local papers to see who is causing most crime.

Well if the increase in crime can not be blamed on immigrants that leaves Irish people. So whats your point?

MY POINT IS THAT THERE IS NO FIGURES TO SAY WHAT NATIONALITY CAUSES CRIME. HOWEVER THERE IS A STRONG INDICATOR THAT SHOWS OUR INCREASE IN CRIME WHICH IS 2.7% GOES ALONG WITH OUR INCREASE IN POPULATION 3.3%. ALSO LOOK IN YOUR PAPERS AND YOU WILL SEE THAT THERE IS A LOT OF CRIMES BEING COMMITED BY NON NATIONALS. MORE WORRYING IS SERIUOS CRIME SUCH AS RAPR FRAUD ETC. THE GARDAI JUST ARENT ABLE TO COPE WITH PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO COMMIT A CRIME AND THEN DISSAPEAR BACK TO THERE COUNTRY ETC. LOOK AT THE AMOUNT OF POLISH CARS ETC ON OUR ROADS. THERE ARE ALL ILLEGAL, NO TAX, NO INSURANCE, NOR NCT.
__________________

This post was written for the universal improvement of mankind


Council for Secular Humanism

Evolution. Its real. Get over it

neolxs

Or the far far more plausable explination that more Irish people are claiming social welfare benefits ....
SO IF MORE IRISH ARE CLAIMING BENEFITS THAT WOULD SUGGEST LOWER LIVING STANDARDS OR MORE UNEMPLOYED!
You also seem to be ignoring the fact that since 2004 you have to be resident in Ireland for 2 years before you can claim the majority of social welfare types, such as child benefit. SUCH AS? CHILD BENEFIT IS AUTOMATIC, CHILD SUPPLEMENT CAN BE CLAIMED FROM DAY 1, FIS CAN BE CLAIMED. UNEMPLOYMENT CANT BE CLAIMED BUT SOCIAL WELLFARE CAN! THIS ALSO PAYS THE SAME AMOUNT AS UNEMPLOYMENT!

Since Poland and the 9 other states only joined in 2004 none of the Polish workers in Ireland would be claiming social benefit yet.

WRONG. ANYONE LIVING IN IRELAND HAS THE BASIC RIGHT TO RECEIVE SOCIAL WELLFARE PAYMENTS, REGARDLESS OF ORIGIN. THE ONLY THING THEY CAN RECEIVE IS UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT, BUT WHEN THIS PAYS OUT THE SAME I DONT THINK THE IMMIGRANT WILL BE TOO BOTHERED!

Do you claim social welfare?[/QUOTE]
YES, BUT ABOUT TO END AS STARTING WORK AGAIN!

jdivision

Firstly the immigration figures take no account of those who leave after arriving. There is anecdotal evidence that a number of immigrants leave quite quickly after arriving because their English isn't good enough. Secondly employment is increasing despite what the OP said. Ireland is a country of full employment in economic terms, where else are we supposed to find people to fill new jobs that are created? The posters are also wrong that the immigrants won't be able to go to other EU countries if things go wrong here, the limits on immigration are temporary and will be lifted. In May for example Finland, Spain, Portugal and Greece said they would lift restrictions ahead of the deadline. As for Romania and Bulgaria, the government has already signalled that limits will be placed on the number of people coming from there. Also you are not entitled to claim social welfare here for two years after you arrive despite what previous poster thinks. It is then that the habitual residency rule comes into play and people qualify for such assistance.

Sgt. Sensible

neolxs wrote:

I recently lost my job only to find that I have been replaced with a low paid EU worker.

How did you find out what your alleged replacement is being paid?

I'm not going to get an answer am I? If you're going to take the time to spam the thread with a load of made up twaddle, you can take the time to answer one simple question I think.

Unpossible

BUT I DID SPEND MY WAGES ON THE BRITISH ECONOMY AND NOT SEND ALL MY MONEY BACK HOME TO IRELAND!

So you're saying you didn't pay tax in the UK ? Im talking about UK tax of course.

Also they speak english very well in Sweden (and here in finland), better than most people in Ireland speak Irish, so you can come and get even better benifits over here

Zombrex

neolxs wrote:

SO IF MORE IRISH ARE CLAIMING BENEFITS THAT WOULD SUGGEST LOWER LIVING STANDARDS OR MORE UNEMPLOYED!

No it woud suggest change in the various systems brought on by an increased general tax income (more state money, more state money to spend on welfare). And what do you find? A whole rake of changes which were brought in between 1995 and 2004. Strange that.

neolxs wrote:

SUCH AS? CHILD BENEFIT IS AUTOMATIC, CHILD SUPPLEMENT CAN BE CLAIMED FROM DAY 1

No, they can't.

https://www.welfare.ie/publications/hrc.html

The following payments are now subject to a habitual residency condition:

• Unemployment Assistance
• Old Age Non-Contributory Pension
• Blind Pension
• Widow(er)'s and Orphan's Non-Contributory Pensions
• One-parent Family Payment
• Carer's Allowance
• Disability Allowance
• Supplementary Welfare Allowance (other than once-off exceptional and urgent needs payments) and
• Child Benefit

You have to pass the Habitual Residency test, proving you have been resident in Ireland for 2 or more years to claim these benefits

Generally an applicant who has been present in Ireland for 2 years or more, works here and has a settled intention to remain in Ireland and make it his/her permanent home will also satisfy the habitual residence condition.

neolxs wrote:

WRONG. ANYONE LIVING IN IRELAND HAS THE BASIC RIGHT TO RECEIVE SOCIAL WELLFARE PAYMENTS, REGARDLESS OF ORIGIN. THE ONLY THING THEY CAN RECEIVE IS UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT, BUT WHEN THIS PAYS OUT THE SAME I DONT THINK THE IMMIGRANT WILL BE TOO BOTHERED!

Not if they came here before 1st May 2004 and have not been living here for 2 years.

I mean I don't even fully agree with that, but it shows that your "fears" are pretty unfounded. So I would wonder where you got all this bogus info from? Chatting to your mates down the pub? Or from the local taxi driver?

And what is with the fecking red cap-locks writing?

neolxs wrote:

YES, BUT ABOUT TO END AS STARTING WORK AGAIN!

Good for you. Since you hate the social welfare system so much can I have back my tax money that paid for your unemployment benefit?

Hobbes

LOOK AT ME GUYS IF SPAM SOMETHING IN CAPITALS AND RED IT SUDDENLY BECOMES TRUE!! PIXIES CONTROL THE WORLD BANK!

More seriously (sans red)

neolxs wrote:

SO IF MORE IRISH ARE CLAIMING BENEFITS THAT WOULD SUGGEST LOWER LIVING STANDARDS OR MORE UNEMPLOYED!

That is not true at all. For example I myself claim child benefit and I am employed. If anything it has improved my living standards. I also save money by claiming tax credits off my wife and because she stays at home and looks after my son we also get benefits for that as well. That was one thing that I didn't even know about until the Revenue told me.

We can claim some of stuff back in relation to medical (not much as I am employed).

See how the system works yet?

CHILD BENEFIT IS AUTOMATIC, CHILD SUPPLEMENT CAN BE CLAIMED FROM DAY 1

No to both. If you bother to go http://www.oasis.gov.ie and look it up you will in fact see that you are very wrong.

FIS CAN BE CLAIMED

Again, go to Oasis. You would see that you would (a) need at least one child (b) child must be living in Ireland and (c) you must be earning under 460 euros before you will even be considered for FIS.

UNEMPLOYMENT CANT BE CLAIMED BUT SOCIAL WELLFARE CAN! THIS ALSO PAYS THE SAME AMOUNT AS UNEMPLOYMENT!

Do you even know what you can claim? I suspect you don't.

Incidently for Social welfare you can't just claim it. You have to be means tested and you have to be paying PRSI for some time.

WRONG. ANYONE LIVING IN IRELAND HAS THE BASIC RIGHT TO RECEIVE SOCIAL WELLFARE PAYMENTS, REGARDLESS OF ORIGIN.

Here let me help you a bit, you seem to be horribly mis-informed.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/social_welfare_system_in_ireland.html

YES, BUT ABOUT TO END AS STARTING WORK AGAIN!

I hope its in a capslock factory. We need more capslock keys.

I am curious how you managed to get this job when all the foriengers are taking the jobs?

Zombrex

neolxs wrote:

IRISH MOVING BACK TO IRELAND

Ummm, interesting

So the social welfare system isn't cracking under the weight of Polish people, it is all the fecking ex-pats coming back to sponge off the state ... wait a minute .. did you not work and live in England and then come back...

neolxs wrote:

THERE IS HISTORICAL LINKS AND TIES BETWEEN IRELAND AND THE UK. WE ALSO HAVE SPECIAL TREATIES TO ALLOW FREEDOM BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES UNIQUE IN THE WORLD.

"Historical links" ... umm, yes that is quite a popular excuse for Irish who emmigrated to England, the US, Austriala, Saudi Arabai (Saudi Arabia??) but now like to bitch about how bad immigration into Ireland is.

Tell me do "historical links" pay for social services? Because if they don't I fail to see the difference.

neolxs wrote:

PRIOR TO THE 90`S YES, BUT WE MOSTLY WENT TO THE UK AND AMERICA WHERE WE HAVE STRONG SOCIAL AND HISTORICAL LINKS.

There is that phrase again. Historical Links ... umm, maybe you don't realise this but those historical links to the US and England were formed by Irish people emmigrating to those countries in the first place. In 5-10 years Poland is going to have "historical links" with Ireland. So I guess you won't have any objection then :rolleyes:

And I still don't see how "historical links" pay more taxes or social services.

neolxs wrote:

FURTHERMORE SWEDEN DOSENT HAVE CHEAP AIR CARRIERS SUCH AS RYAN AIR OR EASYJET OFFERING CHEAP FLIGHTS FOR 1CENT![/COLOR]

Sweden have MUCH better social services than we do. And they also have planes. I got to hand it to you neolxs that is a new one. Polish immigrants come to Ireland because of Ryanair .... ummm ....

neolxs wrote:

OUR POPULATION IS INCREASING EACH YEAR DUE TO IMIGRATION. THUS OUR OVERALL SPEND IN SOCIAL WELLFARE INCREASES TOO.

Actually it doesn't, since the vast majority of immigrants work legally and don't qualify for benefits, or work illegally and aren't in the system to begin with.

neolxs wrote:

SO SCREW THE COUNTRY AND GOOD LUCK TO ANYONE WHO SCREWS US OVER?

You are the one who wants to get rid of the immigrant workers for some ridiculous lack of "historical links" with Poland (seriously, historical links? wtf?).

That will screw the country neolxs, that will screw the economy. But you don't seem that pushed about that fact. You just want your min-wage job back. F**k the rest of us, f**k the health care service.

If there is an economic turn down in Ireland it will not be because of immigrants. They prop up the economy, not drain it. And if that turn down comes you won't have to worry about the immigrants because they will be long gone, off to find jobs somewhere else. And you and me will probably be following them. But of course only to countries with "HISTORICAL LINKS" to Ireland. Like Tailand, or China :rolleyes:

neolxs wrote:

IRELAND OFFER A GENEROUS WELLFARE SYSTEM. I WAS EARNING €32000. PAYING AROUND €150 PER MONTH IN TAX AND PRSI. I HAVE 4 KIDS.

I would tell you to get a better job. I know college graduates earning more than that.

You can't blame immigrants because you are stuck at the low end of the pay group, thats not going to help. Get a skill set, and get a job with a career path. There is no excuse with FAS and all the Higher Education plans out there to be stuck in a rut pay wise, with employment at a record low.

Or don't I don't really care. But stop complaining because you are an unskilled worker with 4 kids competting against Polish 20 year olds for a job in Spar.

neolxs wrote:

mY TAKE HOME PAY WAS AROUND €30,000 PER YEAR AFTER TAX AND PRSI.

So you were really paying f**k all in tax. Is it not a bit rich then to be complaining about where your almost non-existance tax money is going? I pay 5 times as much tax as you a year.

neolxs wrote:

€25,000 PER YEAR FOR DOING NOTHING SOUND GOOD TO YOU?

No, it doesn't. It sounds crap to me. As I imagine it does to anyone but the scumbags of Finglas. Its fine for someone like yourself who was in between jobs, but the idea that someone from Poland would come over here to claim that, and still have to live here, is ridiculous.

neolxs wrote:

BUT LOOK AT THE STANDARDS, WAITING TIMES, COSTS FOR a&e, THIS IS ALL DUE TO POPULATION GROWTH!

That has very little to due with our population growth. As has been pointed out, the hospitals were in dire straights in the early 90s before any of this happened. The only thing that saved them from complete melt down in the mid-90s was foreign nurses from the EU and Asia.

Are you just picking random things and, for no apparent logical reason, blaming immigrants. Oh my bus was late! Damn immigrants.

As Moe says in the Simpsons "Even when it was the bears I knew it was the immgirants"

neolxs wrote:

sO UNEMPLOYMENT IS UP. aLBEIT A SMALL PERCENTAGE, BUT THEN LOOK AT THE WELLFARE CLAIMS

It is as it always goes up at that time of year. 0.1 is nothing. It is like the 4th year college kids who failed their final exams and can't get a job. Less probably.

And what about those wellfare claims. You have completely failed to link them to EU immigrants, and considering they can't claim anything for 2 years I fail to see how you could anyway.

neolxs wrote:

I PAID NO IRISH TAX, BUT THEN I DIDNT LIVE IN IRELAND THEN.

Yet you think Poland should pay child support for the children of works living and working in Ireland .... ummm

neolxs wrote:

BUT I DID SPEND MY WAGES ON THE BRITISH ECONOMY AND NOT SEND ALL MY MONEY BACK HOME TO IRELAND!

LOL .. and what do the Polish people do? The buy their food, petrol, clothes, furniture, rent etc in Poland and have it shipped over to Ireland at the weekend :rolleyes:

neolxs wrote:

MY POINT IS THAT THERE IS NO FIGURES TO SAY WHAT NATIONALITY CAUSES CRIME. HOWEVER THERE IS A STRONG INDICATOR THAT SHOWS OUR INCREASE IN CRIME WHICH IS 2.7% GOES ALONG WITH OUR INCREASE IN POPULATION 3.3%.

Your mate Paddy in the pub who's sister knows a bloke whos ex-girlfriend's mother used to work for a chip shop beside the local Garda station is not "a strong indicator"

gandalf

neolxs wrote:

Or the far far more plausable explination that more Irish people are claiming social welfare benefits ....
SO IF MORE IRISH ARE CLAIMING BENEFITS THAT WOULD SUGGEST LOWER LIVING STANDARDS OR MORE UNEMPLOYED!

It also suggests that more people are claiming something like Child Benefit as well and given there is a baby boom going on that could explain the increased benefit claims.

You also seem to be ignoring the fact that since 2004 you have to be resident in Ireland for 2 years before you can claim the majority of social welfare types, such as child benefit. SUCH AS? CHILD BENEFIT IS AUTOMATIC, CHILD SUPPLEMENT CAN BE CLAIMED FROM DAY 1, FIS CAN BE CLAIMED. UNEMPLOYMENT CANT BE CLAIMED BUT SOCIAL WELLFARE CAN! THIS ALSO PAYS THE SAME AMOUNT AS UNEMPLOYMENT!

As Hobbes said check out that Oasis website and educate yourself, however I have the feeling you are cutting and pasting these replies and are not really willing to engage in a debate, just soundbites and mistruths.

Since Poland and the 9 other states only joined in 2004 none of the Polish workers in Ireland would be claiming social benefit yet.

WRONG. ANYONE LIVING IN IRELAND HAS THE BASIC RIGHT TO RECEIVE SOCIAL WELLFARE PAYMENTS, REGARDLESS OF ORIGIN. THE ONLY THING THEY CAN RECEIVE IS UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFIT, BUT WHEN THIS PAYS OUT THE SAME I DONT THINK THE IMMIGRANT WILL BE TOO BOTHERED!

Wrong be a good citizen and familiarise yourself with the subject please rather than waste our time with your illinformed rubbish.

Do you claim social welfare?
YES, BUT ABOUT TO END AS STARTING WORK AGAIN!

God I hope you didn't displace a poor Polish worker :rolleyes:

neolxs

So now you all have to choose to get clever about RED CAPS LOCKS!

The caps locks were used to help people read my replies to the questions you put. But because Red Caps seem to upset you guys so much Ill try not to use them again.

www.oasis.gov.ie
F. APPLICATION OF THE HRC CONDITION TO EEA WORKERS
Under Article 7(1) of EEC Regulation 1612/68 ( which deals with the freedom of movement of workers with the European Economic Area ( EEA)) a worker who is a national of a Member State may not, in the territory of the another Member State, be treated differently from national workers by reason of his/her nationality in respect of any conditions of employment and work, in particular as regards remuneration, dismissal and should s/he become unemployed, reinstatement or re-employment. Under Article 7(2) s/he shall enjoy the same social and tax advantages as national workers there.

The European Court of Justice has held that social benefits guaranteeing the minimum means of subsistence such as Supplementary Welfare Allowance, is a social advantage within the meaning of Article 7(2) of Regulation 1612/68. Accordingly on the basis of the principle of equal treatment as outlined above, workers from other EEA countries should be treated in the same way as national (Irish) workers in determining entitlement to Supplementary Welfare Allowance. This will apply particularly to part-time workers working less than 30 hours a week who may qualify for SWA.

(Note: This requirement does not apply in the case of other social welfare benefits such as Unemployment Assistance or Old Age Pension as the provisions of Regulation 1408/71 which deal with the co-ordination of social security entitlements for migrant workers moving within the EEA contains specific rules in relation to such payments and take precedence over Regulation 1612/68 in this respect.)

Conditions
You will normally qualify for Supplementary Welfare Allowance if you satisfy the following conditions:

You are living in the state
You satisfy the means test
You have applied for any other benefit/allowance you may be entitled to
You satisfy the habitual residence test, except for the Exceptional Needs Payment. EU/EEA workers will satisfy the habitual residence condition.

neolxs

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

How did you find out what your alleged replacement is being paid?

I'm not going to get an answer am I? If you're going to take the time to spam the thread with a load of made up twaddle, you can take the time to answer one simple question I think.

Well heres your awnser! I asked! Amazing that isnt it! I did know people where I worked within the payroll section and they werent impressed by the way I was treated and were happy to oblige and tell me what i wanted to know!

Happy now? Can you sleep at night?

neolxs

Wicknight wrote:

No it woud suggest change in the various systems brought on by an increased general tax income (more state money, more state money to spend on welfare). And what do you find? A whole rake of changes which were brought in between 1995 and 2004. Strange that.


No, they can't.

https://www.welfare.ie/publications/hrc.html

The following payments are now subject to a habitual residency condition:

• Unemployment Assistance
• Old Age Non-Contributory Pension
• Blind Pension
• Widow(er)'s and Orphan's Non-Contributory Pensions
• One-parent Family Payment
• Carer's Allowance
• Disability Allowance
• Supplementary Welfare Allowance (other than once-off exceptional and urgent needs payments) and
• Child Benefit

You have to pass the Habitual Residency test, proving you have been resident in Ireland for 2 or more years to claim these benefits

Generally an applicant who has been present in Ireland for 2 years or more, works here and has a settled intention to remain in Ireland and make it his/her permanent home will also satisfy the habitual residence condition.



Not if they came here before 1st May 2004 and have not been living here for 2 years.

I mean I don't even fully agree with that, but it shows that your "fears" are pretty unfounded. So I would wonder where you got all this bogus info from? Chatting to your mates down the pub? Or from the local taxi driver?

And what is with the fecking red cap-locks writing?


Good for you. Since you hate the social welfare system so much can I have back my tax money that paid for your unemployment benefit?

The social Welfare budget has doubled since 1995. Does tis mean that payments have doubled? Of course not. So where is the money? Paid to more people, this is backed up when you look at the welfare spend. THERE IS MORE CLAIMANTS! What else happened around the same time? Population Growth through Immigration.

As for the Habitatual residence claim you make, our beloved EU have made that illegal unless you come to ireland looking for work. If you come to Ireland and get a job you can then claim full Irish Benefits.

neolxs

Hobbes wrote:

LOOK AT ME GUYS IF SPAM SOMETHING IN CAPITALS AND RED IT SUDDENLY BECOMES TRUE!! PIXIES CONTROL THE WORLD BANK!

More seriously (sans red)



That is not true at all. For example I myself claim child benefit and I am employed. If anything it has improved my living standards. I also save money by claiming tax credits off my wife and because she stays at home and looks after my son we also get benefits for that as well. That was one thing that I didn't even know about until the Revenue told me.

We can claim some of stuff back in relation to medical (not much as I am employed).

See how the system works yet?



No to both. If you bother to go http://www.oasis.gov.ie and look it up you will in fact see that you are very wrong.



Again, go to Oasis. You would see that you would (a) need at least one child (b) child must be living in Ireland and (c) you must be earning under 460 euros before you will even be considered for FIS.



Do you even know what you can claim? I suspect you don't.

Incidently for Social welfare you can't just claim it. You have to be means tested and you have to be paying PRSI for some time.



Here let me help you a bit, you seem to be horribly mis-informed.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/moving_country/moving_to_ireland/social_welfare_system_in_ireland.html



I hope its in a capslock factory. We need more capslock keys.

I am curious how you managed to get this job when all the foriengers are taking the jobs?

Most people now how to claim Child benefit and do. Most people are PAYE so there tax deductions are done. As in regards to being able to claim back Tax Credits every year when I receive my tax credit form it informs me of what I can claim. This is nothing new! If you dont claim thats your fault. But that but claiming a few exxtra quid for bin collections is hardly going to double the welfare budget in 5 years.

ArthurDent

neolxs wrote:

The social Welfare budget has doubled since 1995. Does tis mean that payments have doubled? Of course not. So where is the money? Paid to more people, this is backed up when you look at the welfare spend. THERE IS MORE CLAIMANTS! What else happened around the same time? Population Growth through Immigration.

As for the Habitatual residence claim you make, our beloved EU have made that illegal unless you come to ireland looking for work. If you come to Ireland and get a job you can then claim full Irish Benefits.

Well since 1995 I've had 2 kids, with a 3rd due any day now - so I have to put my hand up and say that I'm guilty of being one of those extra claimants (and if memory sevrves me correctly Child benefit in '99 when I had my first son was something like £30 or £40 a month- next month it will be €500/month for me - way more than doubled (even per child).

Also on your second point - you're saying if you come to Ireland, get a job, pay tax, rent, mortgage, utilities, contribute to the economy - that shock horror you are entitled to the same benefits as any other Joe and Joesphine Soap - how can you have a problem with that - these immigrants are contributing exactly the same as everyone else and getting exactly the same benefits as everyone else - how can you have an issue with that?

neolxs

Originally Posted by neolxs
IRISH MOVING BACK TO IRELAND

Ummm, interesting

So the social welfare system isn't cracking under the weight of Polish people, it is all the fecking ex-pats coming back to sponge off the state ... wait a minute .. did you not work and live in England and then come back...

So what you are saying is that the majority of polish arent doing the low skilled jobs that the Irish dont want, but are in fact doing high paid skilled jobs pumping thousands back into the economy? And everytime I got to Mcdonalds its Paddy that is serving me and not Mr Polish?

Most Imigrants are working in low skilled jobs that pays sod all, but topped up with a Social Welfare payment of some kind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
THERE IS HISTORICAL LINKS AND TIES BETWEEN IRELAND AND THE UK. WE ALSO HAVE SPECIAL TREATIES TO ALLOW FREEDOM BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES UNIQUE IN THE WORLD.


"Historical links" ... umm, yes that is quite a popular excuse for Irish who emmigrated to England, the US, Austriala, Saudi Arabai (Saudi Arabia??) but now like to bitch about how bad immigration into Ireland is.

Tell me do "historical links" pay for social services? Because if they don't I fail to see the difference.

Every ~Irish person has family in the UK or America, America was built by mostly Irish, There is History there. Hence why Irish mostly still work in those countries if they choose to have a life there. i dont know of many Irish moving to the Uk to live of there benefits work and send back there money to Ireland. The UK and Ireland have very similar living standards and pay structures, so there is no need for a Irish person to live and work there unless he or she wants too. Now on the other hand the Polish etc have no Historical links with Ireland but choose to leave there country come and work over here and send most of there wages back home. With most of them never intendingto stay for more than 3-4 years. In other words they are using our country to benefit themselves. Would our jobs and benefits be not better suited for the long term benefit of the country and the people choosing to live here perm?


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
PRIOR TO THE 90`S YES, BUT WE MOSTLY WENT TO THE UK AND AMERICA WHERE WE HAVE STRONG SOCIAL AND HISTORICAL LINKS.


There is that phrase again. Historical Links ... umm, maybe you don't realise this but those historical links to the US and England were formed by Irish people emmigrating to those countries in the first place. In 5-10 years Poland is going to have "historical links" with Ireland. So I guess you won't have any objection then

The USA was a new country offering anyone from anywhere a new chance in life. America was crying out for people to populate the country. Ireland on the other hand was part of the British Empire and had never existed as a soverign state before that.

And I still don't see how "historical links" pay more taxes or social services.
Historical links mean that people choose to live in those countries for our close ties between each other.

neolxs wrote:

FURTHERMORE SWEDEN DOSENT HAVE CHEAP AIR CARRIERS SUCH AS RYAN AIR OR EASYJET OFFERING CHEAP FLIGHTS FOR 1CENT![/color]

Sweden have MUCH better social services than we do. And they also have planes. I got to hand it to you neolxs that is a new one. Polish immigrants come to Ireland because of Ryanair .... ummm ....

Well back in April 2004, Ryan air announced there new service to Poland. I doubt it was because of all the Irish looking to re-locate. And you keep claiming beter social services in Sweden. Go on then tell me what they are compare them for me!


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
OUR POPULATION IS INCREASING EACH YEAR DUE TO IMIGRATION. THUS OUR OVERALL SPEND IN SOCIAL WELLFARE INCREASES TOO.


Actually it doesn't, since the vast majority of immigrants work legally and don't qualify for benefits, or work illegally and aren't in the system to begin with.

Wrong again. Our Social Welfare sytem is increasing each year. FACT. As previously mentioned above and as people are alway saying, Most EU imigrants do the low skilled jobs the ~Irish dont want to do. So this means No tax return but plenty of state benefits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
SO SCREW THE COUNTRY AND GOOD LUCK TO ANYONE WHO SCREWS US OVER?

You are the one who wants to get rid of the immigrant workers for some ridiculous lack of "historical links" with Poland (seriously, historical links? wtf?).

That will screw the country neolxs, that will screw the economy. But you don't seem that pushed about that fact. You just want your min-wage job back. F**k the rest of us, f**k the health care service.

I have no problem with controlled imigration. I except that any country needs a certainamount of imigration to help increase growth. But I dont beleive the open door acsess of only 3 countries to the whole of Europe is the sensible way about it. We only need so many low skilled workers. My minimum wage job as you claim is the average wage in ireland. I have a good standard of level of educatio but not everyone is blessed with the perfect job or have trwo incomes. And I would rather use of benefit system to force the unemployed back to work and help vunerable Irish people first that really do need a better standard of living.

If there is an economic turn down in Ireland it will not be because of immigrants. They prop up the economy, not drain it. And if that turn down comes you won't have to worry about the immigrants because they will be long gone, off to find jobs somewhere else. And you and me will probably be following them. But of course only to countries with "HISTORICAL LINKS" to Ireland. Like Tailand, or China


Its simple maths.

200 people come to Ireland. 50 have great paid jobs, pay good money into the irish tax system. 50 other are middle paid jobs and they only take x amount of money from the irish welfare system.

The other 100 need to take advantage of the full Irish Welfare system.

Who is paying for the 150 that need help?

The county can not help the whole of Europe, but if we keep the open door policy for Rumania and Bulgaria we will again be screwed over.

And our Economy is a false one. The only thing that seems to be growing is the Construvtion sector and house prices. The bubble will burst, First time buyers wont and cant be able to buy housed thus crashing the system. Only so many construction jobs can be done. What will the country do then?

We shouldnt have to wait to then, sensible control and management now would give us a better future.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
IRELAND OFFER A GENEROUS WELLFARE SYSTEM. I WAS EARNING €32000. PAYING AROUND €150 PER MONTH IN TAX AND PRSI. I HAVE 4 KIDS.

I would tell you to get a better job. I know college graduates earning more than that.

Doing what?

Not everyone in the country is on big money you know, get you head out of the clouds and have a look at the average wage.

You can't blame immigrants because you are stuck at the low end of the pay group, thats not going to help. Get a skill set, and get a job with a career path. There is no excuse with FAS and all the Higher Education plans out there to be stuck in a rut pay wise, with employment at a record low.

Or don't I don't really care. But stop complaining because you are an unskilled worker with 4 kids competting against Polish 20 year olds for a job in Spar.

Well if I choose to work in Spar I may be offended. But the fact is I am a family man who works in Retail Management. Maybe that job is not up to your standards, but maybe you job might not be up to mine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
mY TAKE HOME PAY WAS AROUND €30,000 PER YEAR AFTER TAX AND PRSI.


So you were really paying f**k all in tax. Is it not a bit rich then to be complaining about where your almost non-existance tax money is going? I pay 5 times as much tax as you a year.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
€25,000 PER YEAR FOR DOING NOTHING SOUND GOOD TO YOU?

No, it doesn't. It sounds crap to me. As I imagine it does to anyone but the scumbags of Finglas. Its fine for someone like yourself who was in between jobs, but the idea that someone from Poland would come over here to claim that, and still have to live here, is ridiculous.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
BUT LOOK AT THE STANDARDS, WAITING TIMES, COSTS FOR a&e, THIS IS ALL DUE TO POPULATION GROWTH!


That has very little to due with our population growth. As has been pointed out, the hospitals were in dire straights in the early 90s before any of this happened. The only thing that saved them from complete melt down in the mid-90s was foreign nurses from the EU and Asia.

Are you just picking random things and, for no apparent logical reason, blaming immigrants. Oh my bus was late! Damn immigrants.

As Moe says in the Simpsons "Even when it was the bears I knew it was the immgirants"


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
sO UNEMPLOYMENT IS UP. aLBEIT A SMALL PERCENTAGE, BUT THEN LOOK AT THE WELLFARE CLAIMS


It is as it always goes up at that time of year. 0.1 is nothing. It is like the 4th year college kids who failed their final exams and can't get a job. Less probably.

And what about those wellfare claims. You have completely failed to link them to EU immigrants, and considering they can't claim anything for 2 years I fail to see how you could anyway.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
I PAID NO IRISH TAX, BUT THEN I DIDNT LIVE IN IRELAND THEN.


Yet you think Poland should pay child support for the children of works living and working in Ireland .... ummm


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
BUT I DID SPEND MY WAGES ON THE BRITISH ECONOMY AND NOT SEND ALL MY MONEY BACK HOME TO IRELAND!

LOL .. and what do the Polish people do? The buy their food, petrol, clothes, furniture, rent etc in Poland and have it shipped over to Ireland at the weekend


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
MY POINT IS THAT THERE IS NO FIGURES TO SAY WHAT NATIONALITY CAUSES CRIME. HOWEVER THERE IS A STRONG INDICATOR THAT SHOWS OUR INCREASE IN CRIME WHICH IS 2.7% GOES ALONG WITH OUR INCREASE IN POPULATION 3.3%.

Your mate Paddy in the pub who's sister knows a bloke whos ex-girlfriend's mother used to work for a chip shop beside the local Garda station is not "a strong indicator"
__________________

This post was written for the universal improvement of mankind


Council for Secular Humanism

Evolution. Its real. Get over it

ArthurDent

neolxs wrote:

Well heres your awnser! I asked! Amazing that isnt it! I did know people where I worked within the payroll section and they werent impressed by the way I was treated and were happy to oblige and tell me what i wanted to know!

Happy now? Can you sleep at night?

Serious question - were you sacked, made redundant or was your contract not renewed? If you were made redundant and can prove that someone was taken on to do the same job (for same money or less) then you have a good case to go to the labour court - and you should. If your contract was not renewed and again the job offered to someone else because they were willing to accept eith less than the minimum wage or a wage less than that agreed by your union - you should again go and consult a trade union rep or solicitor - cause you may well have a case.
No-one will deny that employers can and do try and get away with this sort of behaviour - but if that really is the case in your situation why aren't you off trying to highlight them rather than blaming immigrants on some website?

neolxs

gandalf wrote:

It also suggests that more people are claiming something like Child Benefit as well and given there is a baby boom going on that could explain the increased benefit claims.

So you cant or wont except that Imigrants dont bring or claim for there kids?

As Hobbes said check out that Oasis website and educate yourself, however I have the feeling you are cutting and pasting these replies and are not really willing to engage in a debate, just soundbites and mistruths.

I have, and maybe you need to re-look at this yourself. EU law states that it is illegal to treat any other Eu worker different to a Irish worker. The only bit that is true is that you cant come to ireland looking for work and claim Irish benefits. However if you only work 3-4 hours you can claim the full range of Irish benefits. Check the bit I pasted above.

Wrong be a good citizen and familiarise yourself with the subject please rather than waste our time with your illinformed rubbish.

The Same Could be said! But considering there is a awful lot to reply to you have to bear with me a bit!

God I hope you didn't displace a poor Polish worker :rolleyes:

Well I HOpE I did!

neolxs

ArthurDent wrote:

Serious question - were you sacked, made redundant or was your contract not renewed? If you were made redundant and can prove that someone was taken on to do the same job (for same money or less) then you have a good case to go to the labour court - and you should. If your contract was not renewed and again the job offered to someone else because they were willing to accept eith less than the minimum wage or a wage less than that agreed by your union - you should again go and consult a trade union rep or solicitor - cause you may well have a case.
No-one will deny that employers can and do try and get away with this sort of behaviour - but if that really is the case in your situation why aren't you off trying to highlight them rather than blaming immigrants on some website?

I left a good paid Managerial job to take up a post that would give me more time with my kids. i was still working 48 hours per week but considering I was averaging 60 hours per week with a 2 hour drive every day I was happy.

I was there for 3 months when I was told that My employment was being terminated under my probation period. I was told that the position was no longer needed.

However about 1 month later the post was re-filled with a immigrant worker.

I have no legal rights as I hadnt worked for the firm for over a year.

And I was never included as umenployed as the system takes 9 weeks! to process unemployment. So you go onto the supplemantary welfare payment system in the meantime!

Hobbes

neolxs wrote:

Most people now how to claim Child benefit and do.

Based on your earlier posts, you obviously don't. So I recommend you read it.

If you dont claim thats your fault.

I don't get you, your complaining that immigrants know what to claim for? Or that they shouldn't know?

So you cant or wont except that Imigrants dont bring or claim for there kids?

Based on the sites you cited for your figures. 1 in 10 is a child brought into the country. While they can claim (if they remember within the first month of doing so) if you think that they are somehow getting money for nothing then your on crack.

150 a month for a child is pittance (pays the nappies). Factor in that the child has to eat, go to school it means that is money spent in this country and paying wages of people in shops and schools.

Of course you can go on about how they are sending it back to thier child in thier home country (if they are an EU citizen only) but then the person has to be working here and certainly cannot claim FIS like you are trying to make out.

They also can't claim for money in thier home country for the child without it being deducted here.

Your knowledge of what they are allowed is serverly lacking. As I said check out oasis.gov.ie.

neolxs

Originally Posted by neolxs
Most people know how to claim Child benefit and do.


Based on your earlier posts, you obviously don't. So I recommend you read it.

I dont get what you mean? I claim child benefit, and im sure most people in the state do.
Quote:
If you dont claim thats your fault.


I don't get you, your complaining that immigrants know what to claim for? Or that they shouldn't know?
What i am saying is that where is the benefit to the irish state by receiving all these immigrants if they are working low paid jobs, and the irish ste has to fund the basic level of earning by propping up there weekly earnings. I see this as a burdance not a benefit. Yes there are Irish people living of the same benefits, but that are nationals. They didnt come to Ireland to benfit from the state benefits.

Quote:
So you cant or wont except that Imigrants dont bring or claim for there kids?


Based on the sites you cited for your figures. 1 in 10 is a child brought into the country. While they can claim (if they remember within the first month of doing so) if you think that they are somehow getting money for nothing then your on crack.

My argument and point is that there is no benefit to Ireland if a low skilled worker comes here and claims all the benefits available to him. would it not be better to use our benefit fund and help Irish people, and only allow in the skilled workers we really need?

150 a month for a child is pittance (pays the nappies). Factor in that the child has to eat, go to school it means that is money spent in this country and paying wages of people in shops and schools.

150.00 per month isnt bad, Nappies only cost about a 20.00 for a big papmers box that should last you a month! Low paid workers are also entitled to back to school allowance and more than likely will be claiming FIS. And if there kid is under 6 receive a extra Thousand quid per year.
The Child has to eat Yes Agreed, Go to school, Yes Agreed but this is another burden on the Irish Tax Payers, School teachers dont need imigrants to keep there jobs, and as a Retail Manager i can tell you that there is more hassle associated with Non National Shop Lifting than there is with Nationals. So Maybe your right, It gives the Store Detectives something to do!

Of course you can go on about how they are sending it back to thier child in thier home country (if they are an EU citizen only) but then the person has to be working here and certainly cannot claim FIS like you are trying to make out.

They also can't claim for money in thier home country for the child without it being deducted here.

Why cant they? There is no Benefit like this in Poland for example, So whats stopping hem putting there children down on the form and saying they live with them?

Your knowledge of what they are allowed is serverly lacking. As I said check out oasis.gov.ie.

I have, and I suggest you re-check and look a bit more closely!

gandalf

neolxs wrote:

I left a good paid Managerial job to take up a post that would give me more time with my kids. i was still working 48 hours per week but considering I was averaging 60 hours per week with a 2 hour drive every day I was happy.

I was there for 3 months when I was told that My employment was being terminated under my probation period. I was told that the position was no longer needed.

However about 1 month later the post was re-filled with a immigrant worker.

I have no legal rights as I hadnt worked for the firm for over a year.

And I was never included as umenployed as the system takes 9 weeks! to process unemployment. So you go onto the supplemantary welfare payment system in the meantime!

Well based on that its the employer you should be getting shirty with then isn't it. Have you contacted them directly and confronted them. Have you contacted your local TD, have you contacted the media.

No point sitting there and complaining because "they took our jobs" now is there. If you want to sort this out then identify the real problem here and thats employers like that one you have described.

pete

neolxs wrote:

Programme 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004
Old Age 261,281 267,760 276,065 287,395 298,169 303,653
Widow, Widowers and One Parent Families 203,091 206,130 209,011 211,385 211,774 212,952
Child Related 7,640 8,067 12,134 12,696 12,186 11,974
Illness, Disability and Caring 172,104 181,569 193,536 206,137 216,292 227,347
Unemployment Supports 149,705 116,069 126,447 137,982 145,339 131,539
Employment Supports 65,120 64,833 56,582 50,920 44,113 40,136
Supplementary Welfare Allowance 21,269 25,094 29,167 32,073 31,217 29,748
Miscellaneous 548 472 433 383 342 303

Total Recipients 880,758 869,994 903,375 938,971 959,432 957,732

Overall increase in wellfare payments since 1999 till 2004 = 76,224

Irish population growth is around 30,000 per year.

30000 x 5 years (1999-2004) = 150,000
Increase in wellfare payments = 76,224

So in other words 1 in 2 imigrants to Ireland claim Irish state benefits. No really much benefit to the state as a whole I would say!"

Oh boy.

A cursory glance at those figures shows that the numbers receiving old age pensions alone increased by 42,372 - I guess that means we have a problem with immigrant OAPs now... either that, or it's a reflection of the naturally changing age profile of the population.

The numbers receiving Carers Allowance / Benefit increased from just under 15,000 a year in 1999 to just over 23,000 in 2004 (source, page 66), or approximately 9,000 extra claimaints. I'm not aware of carers allowance benefit tourists, but you never know.

The figures for Supplementary Welfare Allowance are interesting too, because what you have to realise is that there would be duplication of claimants between social welfare claimants & supplementary welfare claimants (in other words, someone on the scratcher claiming a back to school allowance, a clothing allowance or an exceptional needs payment). What that means is that every one of those ~30,000 SWA recipients are more than likely already counted in the "Unemployment Supports" figures above.

Also, the figures you quoted are only in respect of "basic" SWA payments. (if i remember correctly, basic SWA includes payments made to people awaiting a decision on a social welfare claim & is recoupable from any social welfare payment they subsequently qualify for, but don't quote me on this - it's been a very long time.). Once the numbers claiming other SWA payments are factored in, the actual figures decreased by 5.9% year-on-year 2003 to 2004. (page 101 of the same 2004 report linked to above)

Meanwhile, the numbers claiming Unlemployment Supports (Unemployment Assistance, Unemployment Benefit) decreased, as did the numbers claiming Employment Supports (Family Income Supplement, Back to Work Allowance etc).

ho hum.

Sgt. Sensible

neolxs wrote:

Well heres your awnser! I asked! Amazing that isnt it! I did know people where I worked within the payroll section and they werent impressed by the way I was treated and were happy to oblige and tell me what i wanted to know!

Happy now? Can you sleep at night?

What a pity I don't believe you.

gandalf

Oh god I had to do it. Con you can ban me for this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrbAPLuJ_qc&mode=related&search=

GuanYin

Pete nailed it on the head.

Why do you even entertain these threads.

Someone loses a job, which is unfortunate, and then goes looking for someone to blame. So lets take out the foreigners.

If you removed every non-irish person from employment tomorrow, Ireland would collapse. Transport, healthcare and service would be non existant. Most irish people now see themselves as too good to work the jobs that immigrants are taking.

Which is amusing, because on one hand we have them to make ourselves feel superior about our jobs and on the other they're taking our jobs.

So what you're really saying is, those foreigners are coming over here taking the jobs I want. :rolleyes:

If someone else got your job it is because they were just as good as you for cheaper. So either improve your skillset and CV or ask for less money. But don'tgo blaiming the immigrant population.

oscarBravo

neolxs, your posting style is practically illegible. Figure out how to use quote tags properly, please.

neolxs wrote:

...as a Retail Manager i can tell you that there is more hassle associated with Non National Shop Lifting than there is with Nationals.

I personally don't believe that non-Irish nationals shoplift more than Irish nationals do. Feel free to post a link to valid statistics to prove me wrong.