Homsexuality & Secondary schools: DISCUSS

LegacyUser

Hello everyone,

I’m a regular user of boards, but as myself am not out to my family and friends I’ve decided to go unregged for this.

I’m a leaving cert student and I’ve known for 2 years I’m gay. As time has gone by I’ve become more and more comfortable with being gay and I feel that I’m not ashamed of being gay.

I’ve come out to two friends, one male and one female, and I found them to be very supportive. One of them tried to tell people last Christmas, but I just rubbished what she was saying, as I didn’t want to be openly gay at that time, as I was still in 4th year.

This is bringing to me to a point I’d like to discuss: Will homosexuality and homosexual students ever be accepted into Irish secondary schools, as well as bisexual and transgendered students?

It has long been a struggle for gay teenagers to come out in the Irish education system, but as society is starting to become more welcoming to LGBT people, should legislation be put into place to protect LGBT students in schools? Most schools have an anti-bullying policy, I’m aware of that, but should this (Or, does it already?) be made to cover homophobic bullying?

I feel that I want to come out, but as I’m not sure how teachers and pupils alike would react, I’m not sure should I? I have absolutely no problem waiting until after the exams next June.

I would like to hear your opinions on this and I would like to hear your experiences on being gay in secondary schools.

UU

Hello Anonymous,

My name is Daniel and I'm 18 (nearly 19) and I went through school for many years being gay too.

Let start by telling you a bit about myself. I attended Ballinteer Community School [BCS]. Well for most of my teenage years I was, in fact, not attracted to anyone so for the first few years the whole fancying, sexual desires, etc. was never a feature in my life. Around 17, I started to become interested in other males and I came out to my family and friends last October which was a relief for me. They said they always sorta suspected I was because I'm sorta camp. Then, last February at my pre-debs I came out to my whole class who were really nice about it and supportive. My class would say stuff like "you ****" to others but once I they knew I was homo they were cool. so I was lucky that way. I was in 6th year then so everyone was more mature and everything. That was my plan. Of course, younger years would say stuff to me like "Is your arse hurting today?" but they were just kids really. So I've recently joined BelongTo which is an organisation for LGBT youth based in Dublin for people between the ages of 14 - 23. I love it - it is great! If you're interested, don't hesitate to PM me, if you live in Dublin that is.

So you want to come out as gay to your school? Well, honestly, I don't know how they will react as i don't know them. Ask yourself some questions:

- Do they seem homophobic?
- How do others treat you at present?
- What type of school is it? Some are religious and others aren't so much. It does make a difference!
- How would you go about coming out? Would you announce it if a discussion props up, for example?
- And most importantly, do you really want to come out to your school?

Expect to get the odd remark. remember, some people are just ignorant! It is illegal to discriminate somebody in school due to their sexual orientation as well as race, creed, gender, etc. The teachers and heads have a responsibility to not permit discrimination in school in whatever form.

Also, BelongTo are launching a campaign with the National Equality Board to inform schools of homophobia and ways in which to tackle it. That is ALL schools even the religious ones.

Good luck whatever action you decide to take but remember only do something if you feel comfortable with doing so.

I hope it all works out for you.

Daniel

LadyJ

Hi OP.

Just a quick question,do you really think it would be a good idea to have LGBT students specifically protected in schools?

It's just there was a discussion similar to this on Humanities forum a while back and it just seemed to me that students in general should be protected from bullying,of course,but by singling out LGBT students as a specific group to be protected,it was really just isolating them even more and probably going to create more problems for them.

abetarrush

LadyJ wrote:

Hi OP.

Just a quick question,do you really think it would be a good idea to have LGBT students specifically protected in schools?

It's just there was a discussion similar to this on Humanities forum a while back and it just seemed to me that students in general should be protected from bullying,of course,but by singling out LGBT students as a specific group to be protected,it was really just isolating them even more and probably going to create more problems for them.

exactly, yer nothin special

Why are ye treatin it like some sort of event? Are ye gonna go on the intercom and say it?

Honestly, someone tellin you your gay out of the blue is really annoyin, for me anyways

So my advice is don't go around tellin everyone, but if you're asked, don't deny it

Rev Hellfire

I totally agree with abetarrush about wanting to go about shouting it down the streets. But then from your post you don't seem to want to do that.
I would assume the existing bullying rules would cover those who have come out.

But since this is a general discussion I'll throw another issue into the mix. Ths time coming from the straight fence. I would be of the opinion that if someone does come out that they should be excluded from the main changing rooms (no no seriously bear with me).
While you may be coming to terms your own sexuality at this time, equally so are straight males and females. Certainly the idea of homosexuals in the male lockers rooms would in my view be as equally as unacceptable as having males in the females lockers. Quite simply most straights would be uncomfortable undressing beside a homosexual. Now I'm sure everyone’s a gent and wouldn't be thinking impure thoughts, but would there be a case for segregation?

LadyJ

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Quite simply most straights would be uncomfortable undressing beside a homosexual. Now I'm sure everyone’s a gent and wouldn't be thinking impure thoughts, but would there be a case for segregation?

Do you just mean men here?

I dunno,I certainly wouldn't be uncomfortable changing beside a lesbian. She's got everything that I have afterall.

Rev Hellfire

Well I cann't speak for women and as far as men are concerned I can only go by what I've observed.
But then the problem isn't with them having what you have, but rather watching what you have Would you be happy changing in front of men, sure we've all seen pictures of what you have and you've seen pictures of what we have so its alright.

btw I'm not saying homosexuals are leering, but rather that people feel uncomforatble with the idea that people might be watching them in such a manner. The truth of the feeling is unimportent.

claire h

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I would be of the opinion that if someone does come out that they should be excluded from the main changing rooms (no no seriously bear with me).
While you may be coming to terms your own sexuality at this time, equally so are straight males and females. Certainly the idea of homosexuals in the male lockers rooms would in my view be as equally as unacceptable as having males in the females lockers. Quite simply most straights would be uncomfortable undressing beside a homosexual. Now I'm sure everyone’s a gent and wouldn't be thinking impure thoughts, but would there be a case for segregation?

Oh, for god's sake. Like segregation has anything to do with people's comfort levels - it's all coming from antiquated ideas about what's appropriate and everyone's main concern is that no one gets pregnant anyway. :rolleyes:

Are most straights so arrogant as to think that every gay person is ogling them? And what if you're bi - do you just get a separate changing room altogether? What if you, quite rightly, feel that it's no business of the school who you find yourself attracted to? Are they going to go around hunting for people they think might be gay and therefore need to be separated from others of their gender? Sexuality is anything but static, especially when people are teenagers - imposing regulations like that would be ridiculous.

Anon_Student wrote:

This is bringing to me to a point I’d like to discuss: Will homosexuality and homosexual students ever be accepted into Irish secondary schools, as well as bisexual and transgendered students?

It has long been a struggle for gay teenagers to come out in the Irish education system, but as society is starting to become more welcoming to LGBT people, should legislation be put into place to protect LGBT students in schools? Most schools have an anti-bullying policy, I’m aware of that, but should this (Or, does it already?) be made to cover homophobic bullying?

I don't know if there are specific rules in place about homophobic bullying but bullying is bullying - as other posters have said, singling out one particular discriminated group probably wouldn't be beneficial. Kids in schools are obnoxious to people for all kinds of reasons - not just sexuality.

Having said that I think sometimes, depending on the school and the teacher, sexuality-related bullying does get overlooked because of either discomfort or homophobia on the part of those in charge. So that is something that needs to be dealt with.

I feel that I want to come out, but as I’m not sure how teachers and pupils alike would react, I’m not sure should I? I have absolutely no problem waiting until after the exams next June.

If coming out as a big thing is important to you, then go for it. But honestly, keeping people updated on a need-to-know basis will probably serve you better - e.g. your mates are all talking about hot girls or whatever, and you're all, "lads, you'd think you'd have realised by now I'm not into the ladies..." Of course, depending on how things have gone before, you may need to sit your friends down for a talk - but as for teachers, many of them probably couldn't care less. It's one thing to, say, point out that your English teacher has made a statement that assumes everyone in the room is straight, and another to jump up in the middle of trigonometry and declare your fondess for nubile young men, y'know?

Taking this approach also means you can't be accused of making a big deal of things, if you feel that might be an issue for people in your school.

The Leaving Cert year does tend to bring you closer to the people in school - if you've found yourself lying or lying-by-omission an awful lot in the past, it might be easier for you to share things rather than hide.

Good luck, whatever you do.

spurious

For those who think their teachers might (or should) be interested, there is a seminar on tackling homophobic bullying in schools in Trinity next Thursday. Not sure if it is full yet, but might be worth an email. Your schools should have been informed of it, but I know from experience, in some schools such information 'goes missing'.

http://www.tcd.ie/childrensresearchcentre/index.php?id=129

Rev Hellfire

claire h wrote:

Oh, for god's sake. Like segregation has anything to do with people's comfort levels - it's all coming from antiquated ideas about what's appropriate and everyone's main concern is that no one gets pregnant anyway. :rolleyes:

Are most straights so arrogant as to think that every gay person is ogling them?

So you believe the only reason that males and females are split up in school is to stop them getting pregnant ? Now I’m willing to accept that now a days maybe teenagers are more accepting and willing to change in front of homosexual (or the opposite gender), but I doubt it’s the case.

The point I’m making (badly I admit) is that if a person comes out they can not expect things to be ok, some people are will be uneasy about it. I personally feel that straights are not accepting of homosexuality but rather tolerate it ( most of my friends disagree for the record), and I don’t believe it will change.

So while everyone else says go for it, I say go for it if you are prepared to accept the consequences it will bring, but that maybe discretion is the better part of valor and keep it to those who really need to know. Because once you reach college it is less of an issue.

Endymion

Rev Hellfire you either have a problem being bollix naked infront of people or you don't. If you don't want to run the risk of a homo checking out your gear, then don't use the changing room. Your discomfort and paranoia, your problem.

Also, wrt splitting of genders, people view being naked infront of the opposite get very differently to being naked infront of the same sex.

And finally, I find it funny that both you and Abe attempted to make the OP out to be some kind of "shout it from the roof tops" homosexual, when what he actually said is that he denied it, and plans to keep it private, for awhile at least.

Stark

Rev Hellfire, I suggest you drop this whole locker room debate. It has nothing to do with what the original poster was asking.

abetarrush

Stark wrote:

Rev Hellfire, I suggest you drop this whole locker room debate. It has nothing to do with what the original poster was asking.

yes, its gettin a bit creepy

moridin

OP, I would say it depends on your personality and your relationship with the others in your year... if you're an outgoing guy with lots of friends who gets on well with mostly everyone, then I think that for the most part the reaction wouldn't be hugely negative.

I'd agree with the other posters though, I wouldn't shout it from the rooftops, tell your mates and don't deny it if asked. Why should it matter so much that it needs to be proclaimed - being gay is part of who you are, it's not the sum of who you are.

Endymion

moridin wrote:

I'd agree with the other posters though, I wouldn't shout it from the rooftops, tell your mates and don't deny it if asked. Why should it matter so much that it needs to be proclaimed - being gay is part of who you are, it's not the sum of who you are.

Just to add, not denying something isn't the same as admitting something. Feel free to tell people to piss off and mind their own business.

UU

Salut!

Oh the changing rooms! Eek! :eek:
I had to try to avoid them when I was in school so I gave up PE! Well I hated PE anyway but the temptation in was way too much for me.
Anyway, away from that!

Okay, OP, just tell a few friends who you can really trust about your gayness. Of course, please try not to get caught snogging the face off another person of the same gender. That's what happened to my friend at school at a school disco and that's how he came out. It was so embarassing for him but he was foolish . If somebody asks if you're gay, don't deny it. Of course, if they're all homophobic, I wouldn't tell them.

Hold on there! Once you go to college (if you decide to go), life will be so much better and free. If you want, you could go to an LGBT group like BelongTo. That way, you could get support on how to approach coming out. Here's their website: http://www.belongto.org/.

Bonne Chance!

JC 2K3

In my experience teenagers these days don't really care about one's sexuality. That's just my life experience though. There's not much of a general bullying problem in my school though.

David Thomas, "I'm the only gay in the village"(or in this case school) types piss me off so much though. They have it coming to them if they're gonna act that way.

I really don't believe that a gay kid getting bullied is any different to a fat kid/nerd getting bullied anyway. Sure it's a societal problem, but it falls under the umbrella of acceptance of people who are different. Specific protection for LGBTs is a ridiclous idea.

Hmm_Messiah

David Thomas, "I'm the only gay in the village"(or in this case school) types piss me off so much though. They have it coming to them if they're gonna act that way.

To suggest any one "has it coming to them " regarding bullying because of how they behave is a dangerous thing.

By extension it means harassment and assault even are ok depending on whether some one pisses you off. Equally it would be ok for some one to bully and torment you if you're behaviour pissed them off.

People talking some gobblygook foriegn language pisses me off... its ok to harass them
Some foreign b*****d comes taking our jobs, that pisses me off...is ok to bully them.
That young one with the skirt like a belt and looks like she's out in her underwear, she pisses me off......

There is such a thing as personal integrity which is not dependent on some one behaving by a code.

You're right I think in how you understand bullying, but then you go and justify it because of a persons behaviour.

abetarrush

JC 2K3 wrote:

exactly

Hmm Messiah wrote:

To suggest any one "has it coming to them " regarding bullying because of how they behave is a dangerous thing.

True, but if a guy is goin around tellin everyone hes gay all the time, he has no right to moan/be surprised abt bein bullied, so yeah, he wud b askin 4 it

Endymion

abetarrush wrote:

exactly

True, but if a guy is goin around tellin everyone hes gay all the time, he has no right to moan/be surprised abt bein bullied, so yeah, he wud b askin 4 it

So if two lads in the same school start going out, and decide to hold hands in the yard they deserve what they have coming it them?

People don't run up to people and declare they are gay to everyone they meet. However some gay peopel do talk about who they fancy, and their sex life and dress to reflect their sexuality.

By you logic, if a girl goes around all the time talking about boys and sexy cloths, then it's ok to call her a whore, sure she has it coming.

Oh no, can't go exposing people to something they might not like.

layke

Messiah, both JC and Abe are just stating the obvious truth, they may not agree with it but it's what happens when you go about advertising and screaming your lungs out. It's just the way it is.

Secondly, I when I was in school we had a couple of closet gay blokes, everyone knew (due to them being quite camp) and nobody ever gave a ****. Years later after we had left school the truth came out.

The only thing ever said was "sure we knew that anyway".

Then again I went to a slightly posh school however somewhere like Finglas Public school, I doubt it would go down so well.

For the record, I don't think some one who is LGBT should recieve any more rights then any other person. If you start making a big fuss about it, you draw attention, potentially breeding hatred.

WexfordMusings

I am going to try and wade in here...

The Dept of Education issued a directive to Schools a couple of years ago to introduce an anti-bullying policy but still nearly 70% of schools do not have one. That also includes bullying leveled at Homosexual people. This is a specific instruction that Schools and Boards of Managements have ignored.

According to a recent survey 90% of children in Second Level school have witnessed or experienced bullying of a homophobic nature and 70% of teachers have witnessed or experienced it. A problem is of course that the teacher doesnt know what to do, (because of a lack of instruction or policy) mainly because the may think it could make matters worse. Then of course the person doing the bullying and the person being bullied sees the teacher doing nothing which for the person perpatrating the offence reinforces the idea that it is okay to continue and the perosn getting bullied feels that there is no point going to their teacher. And so it continues...

Now, looking at the issue a little closer, teachers and principals of schools are - "in-loco-parentus" (not sure of the spelling) - this means that during school hours the teachers and principal are responsible for the care of its students, i.e. acting as parent. By proxy the board of management of the school can also be held responsible.

I believe that if a child is being bullied in school that the teachers, principal and board of management can be held responsible, and could even be brought to court.

What do ye think?

Endymion

layke wrote:

Messiah, both JC and Abe are just stating the obvious truth, they may not agree with it but it's what happens when you go about advertising and screaming your lungs out. It's just the way it is.

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs.

What do you mean by "advertise" would talking to your friends about it be considered advertising, would holding hands be considered advertising? How much advertising do hetrosexual kids do? As I remember ****ing this "bird" or that "bird" was all some guys would talk about in school. I've seen lads walk aroudn town with t-shirts saying Fanny magnet and so forth, would it be ok to wear one saying Cock magnet, or would that be to "in your face".

You talk about equal rights, but you don't think LGBT students should be free to express their sexuality in the same way everyone else does.

Hmm_Messiah

Messiah, both JC and Abe are just stating the obvious truth, they may not agree with it but it's what happens when you go about advertising and screaming your lungs out. It's just the way it is.

I commented on what JC 2k3 said - which was not just stating an obvious truth. The way he worded it he explicitly said there is a type of person who deserves to be bullied.

Its not the "truth", nor is it just the way it is - its apparently the way JC 2k3 is.

Regarding specifying homophobia in anti -bullying procedures, I'm not too sure that school bullying often equates to real homophobia, mostly as others said its picking on any trait thats effective.

But none of it would be looking fgor special rights for gay people. If there was a policy to allow a certain area of a concert hall for wheelchairs/disabled, but it was then realised that it was too far away for those which sight-impairments ; changing the location would not be meeting some special need, it would simply be accomodating different needs to meet the same goal - equal enjoyment of the event.

WexfordMusings

Hmm Messiah,

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with you. Of course school bullying doesnt equate to homophobia, simply because not all bullying in school is of a homophobic nature.

However, I disagree with you about looking for special rights as you put it. All through the ages, minority groups have had to fight for their rights. Whether you call them special or not. The Employment Equality Act could have just stated that it was illegal to treat staff differently for any reason, but intead it doesnt. This act specifically list sexual orientation, but this doesnt give gay people special rights. Just re-affirms to all the neaderthals out there that all people (including GLBT even) have equal rights.

Hmm_Messiah

I don't understand you, or you misunderstood me. I said there are not special rights, but there may be different needs to achieve equal rights.

The specifics were put in the legislation to simplify the legalities; while specific situations are listed they are all under the umbrella of the same single right to equal treatment.

And it's nice that you agree with me, but just to confirm, I actually meant many bulying cases against "gays" are not in any real way homophobic (as I understand it )

layke

Carnivore wrote:

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs

I have. Lots of nights out with friends of mine. Screaming involved

You talk about equal rights, but you don't think LGBT students should be free to express their sexuality in the same way everyone else does.

No I do, dosn't bother me one bit. I just think in school it will bring you more trouble then it's worth. Pending on which school your in, that's all.

Messiah, fair nuff, it reads different to me though. I see Abe just bluntly attempting to say keep yer head down and say nowt in school. It's hard enough going through it as it is. Sure it's not the most delicatly put but I don't see what he wrote as not being malicious, in fact where does he expressly say anyone gay should get a beating?

abetarrush

Carnivore wrote:

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs.

What do you mean by "advertise" would talking to your friends about it be considered advertising, would holding hands be considered advertising? How much advertising do hetrosexual kids do? As I remember ****ing this "bird" or that "bird" was all some guys would talk about in school. I've seen lads walk aroudn town with t-shirts saying Fanny magnet and so forth, would it be ok to wear one saying Cock magnet, or would that be to "in your face".

You talk about equal rights, but you don't think LGBT students should be free to express their sexuality in the same way everyone else does.

2 gay guys in my school, lets call them Rosie and Jim

Rosie was in my year, Jim a year down

Rosie started dressin differently, singin Britney Spears out loud in class [He doesnt even like her! he's emo and such]
THE KILLER: He goes up to loads of the girls and just feels their tits, and says, Oh, i'm gay, so its ok to do that

Jim: Constantly wore a hoody with CAMP on it, and a sparkly purple scarf. Says he wants to have kids himself [wtf??]

And, he was sittin on my row on the plane on the way home from France. My mate beside me said UGH, we have school tmoro! and I said I know, it's gay

and he was all like WHY ARE YOU SLAGGIN MY PEEPS???


And as an added bonus: Some guy on a TV show. This girl said "OMG, u really look like my old boyfriend" and the guy said, "did he turn out to be gay? Cos I am"


Yeah, me and JC jus said if someone goes around advertisin their gayness like the above, they're basically cruisin for a bruisin

But its not right! its bullying!


I dont think teachers should be held responsible. In fairness, theres like 700 students in most schools, so i doubt most teachers would know about half the bullyin that goes on

But if the bully-ee told a teacher, I highly doubt they'd do nothin about it

Like I said, its bullyin

***Someone gets slagged / battered cos of somethin about them***

what to do?

Teacher talks to / punsihes the bully // contacts their parents

swiss

abetarrush wrote:

2 gay guys in my school, lets call them Rosie and Jim

Rosie was in my year, Jim a year down

Rosie started dressin differently, singin Britney Spears out loud in class [He doesnt even like her! he's emo and such]
THE KILLER: He goes up to loads of the girls and just feels their tits, and says, Oh, i'm gay, so its ok to do that

Jim: Constantly wore a hoody with CAMP on it, and a sparkly purple scarf. Says he wants to have kids himself [wtf??]

And, he was sittin on my row on the plane on the way home from France. My mate beside me said UGH, we have school tmoro! and I said I know, it's gay

and he was all like WHY ARE YOU SLAGGIN MY PEEPS???


And as an added bonus: Some guy on a TV show. This girl said "OMG, u really look like my old boyfriend" and the guy said, "did he turn out to be gay? Cos I am"


Yeah, me and JC jus said if someone goes around advertisin their gayness like the above, they're basically cruisin for a bruisin

But its not right! its bullying!


I dont think teachers should be held responsible. In fairness, theres like 700 students in most schools, so i doubt most teachers would know about half the bullyin that goes on

But if the bully-ee told a teacher, I highly doubt they'd do nothin about it

Like I said, its bullyin

***Someone gets slagged / battered cos of somethin about them***

what to do?

Teacher talks to / punsihes the bully // contacts their parents

What?

Boston

layke wrote:

I have. Lots of nights out with friends of mine. Screaming involved

People get drunk and become fab, it's better then getting drunk and becoming violent.

No I do, doesn't bother me one bit. I just think in school it will bring you more trouble then it's worth. Pending on which school your in, that's all.

Messiah, fair nuff, it reads different to me though. I see Abe just bluntly attempting to say keep year head down and say nowt in school.

Can you accept that some people might not want to go through school keeping there heads down, especially when doing its out of fear of other peoples insecurities. Live in the shadows, or face bullying for what you are. What type of person finds that acceptable.


Abe, Your friend "rosie" seems perfectly fine. Some women love that whole "fag hag" thing. Did the girls mind? No, so why should you. did you ever think of cutting him some slack?

As for this Jim guy, seems to be light hearted joking you decided to be offended by. Also maybe you shouldn't be so astoundingly inconsiderate as to use gay as a derogatory term while sitting beside someone who is gay, did you think of that?

But all that aside, you are a child. Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like. That behavior just isn't on. I hope you grow up at some stage.

abetarrush

LiouVille wrote:

People get drunk and become fab, it's better then getting drunk and becoming violent.


Can you accept that some people might not want to go through school keeping there heads down, especially when doing its out of fear of other peoples insecurities. Live in the shadows, or face bullying for what you are. What type of person finds that acceptable.


Abe, Your friend "rosie" seems perfectly fine. Some women love that whole "fag hag" thing. Did the girls mind? No, so why should you. did you ever think of cutting him some slack?

As for this Jim guy, seems to be light hearted joking you decided to be offended by. Also maybe you shouldn't be so astoundingly inconsiderate as to use gay as a derogatory term while sitting beside someone who is gay, did you think of that?

But all that aside, you are a child. Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like. That behavior just isn't on. I hope you grow up at some stage.

Oh really? So theres no people over 18 who beat/slag people because of their race etc???

And who said I go around bashin/slaggin people???? wtf?

And yes, the girls did mind, a lot! Gay men aren't women, so they don't have the right to do that, at least not without consent. And fag-hags are generally mingers who wont get any other action

And yer man Jim, he was asleep for the whole flight! But hopped up when I said that

So don't assume you know everything next time

Boston

abetarrush wrote:

Oh really? So theres no people over 18 who beat/slag people because of their race etc???

And those people are scum, your point is what exactly? That you could be scum?

And who said I go around bashin/slaggin people???? wtf?

Not I, however you advocate it, and express and opinion that it is right. That is a child's stance.

And yes, the girls did mind, a lot! Gay men aren't women, so they don't have the right to do that, at least not without consent. And fag-hags are generally mingers who wont get any other action

Then I'm sure the guy got a slap in the face for his troubles, again whats it got to do with you?

And yer man Jim, he was asleep for the whole flight! But hopped up when I said that

Well he was minding his own buisness and staying out of your conversation. You where in the wrong dude. If I was sitting on a flight listening to someone ****e on abotu gay this and **** that, I'd say something to them as well. You honestly expect us to see your side of this? While allot of gays don't have a problem with the way in which the term is used in general society, most wouldn't think that all gays should feel the same.

I've no problem with the term ****, I sometimes use it, however if I was sitting beside someone in a cinema or long flight, and they asked me to stop, I wouldn't hold it against them, because i recognise that sometimes in life, you can't be an asshole 100% of the time, to 100% of the people. Thus stop being self centered and learn some empathy.

abetarrush

Do u even read anyones posts?


You clearly said "ADULTS DONT BULLY"

And i said twice that I never meant people deserved to be bullied, but if they go around advertisin their sexuality
[dont bother sayin thats bs, cos you know well its not] that they should expect some negative attention


As for the guy on the flight, he's a dub, he knows well how that word is used. He just cudnt pass the chance to remind us he's gay, and im not the only one who thought so
Also, I wasnt bein inconsiderate, I thought he was asleep. And anyway, I wasnt talkin to him, so he was the rude one listenin in
So there

And I never said Mr Grabby-hands was my business, i was givin an example

So like I said before, stop bein to presumptuous and actin like you know everything

BTW, How old are you???

Boston

abetarrush wrote:

Do u even read anyones posts?


You clearly said "ADULTS DONT BULLY"

No I didn't, care to provide a quote for that. I called you a child for your attitudes.

And i said twice that I never meant people deserved to be bullied, but if they go around advertisin their sexuality
[dont bother sayin thats bs, cos you know well its not] that they should expect some negative attention

Cruising for a brusing was the phase you used actually.

As for the guy on the flight, he's a dub, he knows well how that word is used. He just cudnt pass the chance to remind us he's gay, and im not the only one who thought so

Of course he knew how the word is used, in the same way most people know now knacker, skanger, retard, bitch, ****, ****nuts ect ect ect are used, doesn't mean that everyone should be happy with having those terms used in front of them. There something called common decency. Fair enough that you don't watch what you say all the time, but once someone points out they have a problem with you being crude and vulgar, the polite thing to do is to respect that, especially when stuck on a flight together.

Also I see nothing wrong with someone reminding you of their sexuality in that instance. Someone saying "Sorry but why are you insulting a community with which I share an affinity?", or as the young'ens say "why you dis'ing my peeps?", is not rubbing their sexuality in your face

I thought he was asleep. And anyway, I wasnt talkin to him, so he was the rude one listenin in
So there

I see, he should have switched off his hearing. Is this some special ability you believe gay men to posses? Is it like gay charisma?

And I never said Mr Grabby-hands was my business, i was givin an example

But you hold a deep seeded resentment about it. Jealousy perhaps? But of who, the lady or the gent.

So like I said before, stop bein to presumptuous and actin like you know everything

BTW, How old are you???

Your examples, I'm just picking them a part. As for my Age, lets jsut say I can drink legally in bars.

Nevyn

Hi LiouVille good to see your back

SmoothyG

LiouVille wrote:

But all that aside, you are a child. Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like. That behavior just isn't on. I hope you grow up at some stage.

Sorry to interupt but you did say that, post 30.

, using gay as a darogatory term is very wrong, abetarrush should know that by know if he is old enough to work a pc.

i think you are right Liou but you are kinda putting words in his mouth
He does have a point that negative reactions to wearing your sexuality on your sleeve is to be expected in high school, it is a problem we are yet to overcome as a society, but those who choose to stand up for thier rights must expect opposition.
There comes a point where we have to accept that our society is a work in progress, aslong as today is better than yesterday i think we are doing well

abetarrush

LiouVille wrote:

Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like.

I said cruisin for a brusin as in they shud expect some negative attention. I never said they'd deserve it, or that its in any way OK to do

Like I said, i actually thought it was ok for gays to grab women, but my opinion on that only changed cos of the way my friends felt afterwards

And stop bein so condescendin

Ive been able to drink legally in a bar for over a year

And you just said it yerself, ur pickin at my words, aka tryin to twist them

So, since you're not listenin, ill hafta repeat myself

I'm only sayin what results are guaranteed to come from advertising your sexuality, but im not sayin they're right or wrong

As for gay as a derogatory term, I'm just used to sayin it, as is many many other irish men

I try to be considerate if im around gays, so I dont see why I should have my face eaten off when they know what I was talkin about

Boston

SmoothyG wrote:

Sorry to interupt but you did say that, post 30.

So I did, my mistake.

i think you are right Liou but you are kinda putting words in his mouth
He does have a point that negative reactions to wearing your sexuality on your sleeve is to be expected in high school, it is a problem we are yet to overcome as a society, but those who choose to stand up for thier rights must expect opposition.

Problem arises when the response is disprotionate and out of line with what others would sproportionate. people like Abe should really look at their behavior and if they are viewing others fairly.

If instead of "Jim" asking if a friend's Ex was gay (presumably joking about hooking up with him) another girl had asked "So, is he still single" Abe wouldn't have even noticed.

I'm sorry but I just have a problem with his attitude that someone like this Jim fello can expect abuse if they stand up for themselves, and say, "actually no, I don't feel like listening to this ****e for the next four hours".
What is wrong with expecting people to treat each other with some decency?

When someone asks you be be quiet in the cinema are they Cruising for a bruising too Abe? Should they expect to told to **** off?

Also all this "wearing their sexuality on their sleeve", "Advertising it", "shouting about it". Who defines where they things begin and end? There's been posters on this forum that have found gays holding hands as rubbing it in peoples faces. Is a gay allowed to express there sexuality as much as a heterosexual?

For example, guys seldom seem pushed when Girls score each other (provided their hot sexy ladies doing it for the attention of men) however when guys kiss it's "sick and repulsive", and cruising for a bruising.

I'm only saying what results are guaranteed to come from advertising your sexuality, but im not sayin they're right or wrong

I live in a world where the first thing I expect from people when displaying my sexuality is utter and complete indifference. I expect the same reaction regardless of who I'm holding hands with, kissing, hugging ect. Now sometimes that expectation isn't met, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't hold people to it, and it certainly doesn't mean a negative reaction is guaranteed.

Twinkle-star15

Carnivore wrote:

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs.

I have. Both gay and straight. And I don't like when either orientation does it, frankly. Like one guy who managed to squeeze the fact that he was bi into every conversation for a year, or the girl who had to stop and ogle every guy on the street and 'rate' them too. While I wouldn't say 'they had it coming to them', if someone is that annoying, they can expect to lose some friends. People are shallow, that's a fact of life. And you can't go up to students and say 'include so-and-so in your group because they don't have any friends', because that's not fair on a) the group of friends and b) the person you're asking for (trust me on that one, it's happened to me ), because everyone just feels awkward and forced. It's up to the group to realise that we're all special and unique like snowflakes, and the other person to realise that there's 'different' and then there's 'freakish'. If they're happy being freakish all well and good, and if their friends accept them exactly the way they are that's bloody fantastic! But rarely is anyone 100 per cent accepted.

To be absolutely clear, I am NOT saying people should change who they are, rather that they should tone down the annoying habits. Like telling a child to control their temper or stop sucking their thumb, rather than telling them they have to dress a certain way and listen to certain music.

And finally, an apology to the OP, because this has absolutely nothing to do with the original question asked.

JC 2K3

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

To suggest any one "has it coming to them " regarding bullying because of how they behave is a dangerous thing.

By extension it means harassment and assault even are ok depending on whether some one pisses you off. Equally it would be ok for some one to bully and torment you if you're behaviour pissed them off.

People talking some gobblygook foriegn language pisses me off... its ok to harass them
Some foreign b*****d comes taking our jobs, that pisses me off...is ok to bully them.
That young one with the skirt like a belt and looks like she's out in her underwear, she pisses me off......

There is such a thing as personal integrity which is not dependent on some one behaving by a code.

You're right I think in how you understand bullying, but then you go and justify it because of a persons behaviour.

Ah come on, that's twisting my words. I mentioned David Thomas's name to imply that it was put on and exaggerated - ie. ANNOYING. There's a difference between acting camp and acting like an idiot who can't go 2 seconds without mentioning (gay) sex or how outrageous it is that he's gay(Don't tell me this doesn't happen, IT DOES, well one person I know anyway). I'm not saying this is a reason to be bullied. Bullying's never justified, but bullying happens in schools, it's a fact. It'll likely never change. You can have personal integrity without being an annoying attention whore. You can express your personality without imposing it on others.

Carnivore wrote:

So if two lads in the same school start going out, and decide to hold hands in the yard they deserve what they have coming it them?

People don't run up to people and declare they are gay to everyone they meet. However some gay peopel do talk about who they fancy, and their sex life and dress to reflect their sexuality.

By you logic, if a girl goes around all the time talking about boys and sexy cloths, then it's ok to call her a whore, sure she has it coming.

Oh no, can't go exposing people to something they might not like.

Read above. I can't believe how wrongly my post was interpereted....

abetarrush wrote:

Rosie started dressin differently, singin Britney Spears out loud in class [He doesnt even like her! he's emo and such]
THE KILLER: He goes up to loads of the girls and just feels their tits, and says, Oh, i'm gay, so its ok to do that

Yeah, there's a gay in my school and a hug with a girl=an oppertunity to grope her, I don't understand it....

abetarrush wrote:

Jim: Constantly wore a hoody with CAMP on it, and a sparkly purple scarf.

I wouldn't consider that too bad tbh. As long as he does it because he genuinely likes his clothes rather than to be different and broadcast his sexuality. But in any case that's acceptable enough, despite making himself a target.

abetarrush wrote:

Yeah, me and JC jus said if someone goes around advertisin their gayness like the above, they're basically cruisin for a bruisin

But its not right! its bullying!

Yup, sad truth in some cases. In many other cases, however, my empathy is limited.

abetarrush wrote:

***Someone gets slagged / battered cos of somethin about them***

what to do?

Teacher talks to / punsihes the bully // contacts their parents

Exactly.

Hmm_Messiah

JC 2K3 wrote:

David Thomas, "I'm the only gay in the village"(or in this case school) types piss me off so much though. They have it coming to them if they're gonna act that way.

Thats what you said, I didn't twist your words, and you weren't misinterpreted.
Maybe , just maybe you said things the wrong way. All I was pointling out is that bullying is a difficult subject if some one obviously against it can still manage to say the above in the middle of his post.

JC 2K3

I hate attention whores. This applies to anyone for any reason really.

I have no problem with people expressing themselves as long as they do it modestly. Although I don't believe anyone should be bullied for it.(Told to grow up maybe, nothing serious)

"They have it coming to them" didn't mean I advocated it.

Sorry for any ambiguity.

abetarrush

JC 2K3 wrote:

I hate attention whores. This applies to anyone for any reason really.

I have no problem with people expressing themselves as long as they do it modestly. Although I don't believe anyone should be bullied for it.(Told to grow up maybe, nothing serious)

"They have it coming to them" didn't mean I advocated it.

Sorry for any ambiguity.

here here!

LiouVille wrote:

people like Abe should really look at their behavior and if they are viewing others fairly.

What do you mean people like me? Someone with an opinion? You judgin me cos of somethin about me? Now, wha would that remind me of?....

LiouVille wrote:

If instead of "Jim" asking if a friend's Ex was gay (presumably joking about hooking up with him) another girl had asked "So, is he still single" Abe wouldn't have even noticed.

WTF has this got to do wtih anything????

LiouVille wrote:

I'm sorry but I just have a problem with his attitude that someone like this Jim fello can expect abuse if they stand up for themselves

Why should they stand up for themselves? Thats not what any of us meant at all. If you read my posts you'd understand
I'm just statin the fact that there'll always be XXX-phobia in schools, and at the end of the day, Boys will be Boys

This is the 5th time sayin this, but whatever

If someone wants to advertise themselves bein gay, they have no right to be surprised if they attract negative attention. They should have more common sense. Is it right that they get bullied? NoBut is it stupid to do so when they know they'll be provokin bullies?[intentionally or not] Yes

IMO

Stark

abetarrush wrote:

But is it stupid to do so when they know they'll be provokin bullies?[intentionally or not] Yes

I completely disagree. By standing firm in the face of bullies, you're re-asserting your self-confidence, something which bullying erodes. Strong people are less of a target for bullies.

abetarrush

Stark wrote:

I completely disagree. By standing firm in the face of bullies, you're re-asserting your self-confidence, something which bullying erodes. Strong people are less of a target for bullies.

True, but if you can't stand up for yerself, its like jumpin into the deep end on the day of your first swimmin lessons

SmoothyG

you both have a fair point and i have to stick up for abe here. he is not condoning it, he has said several time that he doesnt, I do agree that if you want to stand up for your rights then it is only logical to expect opposition. Any gay person, of any age would be stupid not to realise that there is people out there that, for whatever reason, will have a problem with it, especially in schools where young boys are desperatly seeking to fit in. But that goes for everything, not just a persons sexuality.

It doesnt make it right, nobody here has said that, but it will be expected.

Boston

SmoothyG wrote:

you both have a fair point and i have to stick up for abe here. he is not condoning it, he has said several time that he doesnt, I do agree that if you want to stand up for your rights then it is only logical to expect opposition. Any gay person, of any age would be stupid not to realise that there is people out there that, for whatever reason, will have a problem with it, especially in schools where young boys are desperatly seeking to fit in. But that goes for everything, not just a persons sexuality.

It doesnt make it right, nobody here has said that, but it will be expected.

What you expect is for people to hide what they are, or they have it coming. Abe has said that people who advertise what they are, are asking for it, are looking for the hassle. Thats not true. This attitude of "sure what do you expect" puts it all on the victium. How about expecting human decency.

Kids make mistakes, that goes without doubt. Some don't handle coming out and being out as well as they maybe should. You shouldn't hold it against them. you have to remember, for them, for at least a little while, it will be this huge life changing life defining thing.

LiouVille

LiouVille wrote:

What you expect is for people to hide what they are, or they have it coming. Abe has said that people who advertise what they are, are asking for it, are looking for the hassle. Thats not true. This attitude of "sure what do you expect" puts it all on the victium. How about expecting human decency.

Exactly.
Do people run out of the George,down the street beating up random straight people/name call them or otherwise shrug frown or taunt at them?
Thought not
So theres the higher moral ground on the tolerance issue anyway.


Anything else anybody would like to say on that issue whilst we're here?

SmoothyG

LiouVille wrote:

What you expect is for people to hide what they are, or they have it coming. Abe has said that people who advertise what they are, are asking for it, are looking for the hassle. Thats not true. This attitude of "sure what do you expect" puts it all on the victium. How about expecting human decency.

I dont expect people to hide, The point i am trying to make is homophobia in schools is there, No-one here thinks it is fair but it is not a perfect world. abe was using a bad hoice of words and he has tryed to ammend that. He was trying to say, and he is right, that if a person publicly displays their homosexuality in a school then the bullies will hone in on it. Of course they will, it doesnt make it right, and no one has said that, but it is a fact of life.
As a gay boy in school this is one of the challenges that they will face.

If you go around expecting human decency from every kid in school then you are in a dream world.

Hmm_Messiah

Might make some posts easier to read if you remember that its verb+"ing"
so it's:

judging, something, jumping, swimming, stating, saying, provoking, cruising
condescending, picking, listening, being

otherwise its comes accross as as writing with an accent or lazy text talk and an otherwise possibly valid point can be lost .

Hmm_Messiah

If you go around expecting human decency from every kid in school then you are in a dream world.

If you stop hoping for it you may as well give up on this world.
I "think" LiouVille got what the others were saying, but just finds it hard to stomach the suggestion some one should tone down their personality for the sake of their physical/pyschological safety.

And I would have to agree with him there. Of course there are situations where its wiser to behave a certain way, but within the everyday routine of living your life itsnot ok to tell some one to change their legitimate behaviour to avid some one else unacceptable behaviour.