Self-defence: A healthy life skill

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

Just a quick question. One of my students came up to me today and asked whether his 16 year old daughter could join the class. The reason he asked is that my official age limit is 18 but I make exceptions.

Anyway, turns out his daughter was at the point a few nights ago for the post exams bash and for no reason was punched 4 times in the face by another teenager. Now I was not there and I am only taking this chaps word for it who can only take his daughters word for it so for the moment we will assume it is true or else for this thread treat it as a hypothetical (sp?) situation.

The thing that has distressed this chaps daughter is that she did has done kickboxing for 3 years but was totally unable to use it so now in order to prevent a repeat of this situation she wants to take steps to defend herself.

So with reference to previous posts over the last year, is there anyone here who feels that she is emotionally unhealthy/paranoid/illogical,that she should avoid going out with her friends/choose new friends, concentrate on her diet or that while statically she was at a low risk of being attacked in the first place, being attacked a second time is even more statically unlikely.

Or would you all agree that learning how to defend yourself is a healthy lifeskill which will give you more confidence and therefore a higher quality of life?

Thoughts/opinions?

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Clive

Well aside from the junior cert and staying away from gents that are disreputable (not me) obviously this girl is hangin where wang is changin'. (Roper I'm lookin' that way!)

In reply to the thread , battering people is a great lifeskill, if they can't fight back or can offer only token resistance.

In all seriousness this girl and her mother seem to be lacking Clive-love.

17+ and it's all good!

Nothingcompares

:0. story like this in the northside people too. shocking

Odysseus

Personally I think its a healthly life skill, but like a lot of skills it can be abused. Of course there are many things we can do in order to avoid conflicts, however, there is no ultimate one that will ensure that this happens. Therefore, if it helps her why not

john kavanagh

poor girl

i dont see how people confuse the 'healthy mindset' thing so much but anywayz leaving that aside i think there's 2 questions

1. is it likely?

highly unlikely when you avoid places with drunk people....for the most part

2. how best to train for it?

hmmmm what system best prepares you for being punched in the face??

let me think about that one....and while i'm thinking about it you guys go spar with some boxers

just watched that national geographic 'fight science' thing, turns out the boxer had the strongest punch...who'd have guessed? conversely the kung fu guy had the weakest. also the thai boxer had the strongest kick...another shocker :eek:

Michael O Leary wrote:

Anyway, turns out his daughter was at the point a few nights ago for the post exams bash and for no reason was punched 4 times in the face by another teenager

yeah drunk teenagers and fighting, another shocker!!

crazy monkey

Hi all ,

Not surprised to hear a story like that in Northside News I wrote a story for The Herald about 2 years ago about a similar incident.

My idea of self defense comes down to fight or flight.
I am confident in my abilities but not stupid enough to think I will always win [bruised and battered off course as we all know you rarely if ever get away unscathed].

Michael what exactly do you teach in your self defense class?

Please don't tell me it's anything like when you do a cross hand butterfly block to sisarm your opponet then throw three jumping back kicks.

Is it more "krav maga" or reality based self defense orientated?

Having being a student of martial arts since age five I have had the luck [and occassional misfortune] to study the following martial arts:

AITA TKD - Sport aspects were good - self defense not so good - Similar to Kenpo
ITF TKD - Sport aspects were good - self defense not so good - Similar to Kenpo
WTF TKD - Sport aspects were great -self defense non existant

Some boxing in school

IMAC - Kenpo sparring was very tip tap and was supposed to prepare me for the street - maybe sesame st....
IMAC - Aikido...a few handy locks but I wouldn't feel comfortable using it on the street

Tomiki Aikido - very similar to japanese ju jitsu and it was the spur to start me grappling

Kick-boxing - after sometime doing TKD I found this rather easy and based nearly entirely on points scoring and semi/full contact sparring...not really great for self defense but did build confidense -strangely

BJJ - completely took away my fear of the ground and helped make a more well rounder fighter.
MMA - Truly made me feel I could fight on the street.

I am hoping to more Muay Thai, Judo and free style wrestling as I think from my limited understanding of the 3 above arts and BJJ and MMA I will be a very well rounded srapper.

Now weapons self defense I did alot of the traditional stuff - bokken, sai, knife, nunchaku and BO [jo if you prefer] and found I really learned nothing practical until I trained with some of my mates who are in the military.

One SAS and two legionaires...they really showed me reality when faced with a weapon.

So my definition of self defense knowing when to walk away and never thinking I should fight but if I have to Then I do as much damage to the opposition as fast and as hard as I can then I leave haste post haste....not out of panic but out of logic.

I don't want to be there if they have mates, are catching their second wind or if the Gardai are on their way.

So what do you teach and what do you think it can offer this girl?
If you think it will help her defend herself great, as for the moral implications of her fighting you are not her conscience.
She has to decide whether or not to use what you teach and how much force to apply it with.

Self defense is a very personal choice, eye couging and biting an ear of are not for me but I know ppl [women included ] who would do that if they felt they had to.
VALE TUDO as they say in Brazil.

By the way I advocate always leaving a fight be....but sometimes we just can't. So from that point of view I would restain if possible or dismantle if necessary.

Nothingcompares

It's for reasons like this i carry my tonfa shaped torch with me every where i go.

Roper

Clive wrote:

In all seriousness this girl and her mother seem to be lacking Clive-love.

17+ and it's all good!

Just when you think it can't get smuttier...:D

Well Michael, the girls had a shock and obviously doesn't fancy the same thing happening again. I don't blame her, but do you really think there's many arts that are going to prepare anyone for the point on Junior Cert night!!! In any case, teens+drink=fist fights, trouble etc. I think we've all been there. Whats so shocking?

judomick

Why could she not use her Kickboxing?, maybe the girl that punched her was a BJJ student?:eek:

But seriously why did she think her kickboxing didnt work?

Nothingcompares

The chances of this reoccuring are very slim, loike is she going to repeat the junior cert loike

Millionaire

self defence is a load of Bollix....... UNLESS!!!!!! it is trained for properly...

the other day I was reviewing a book Krav Maga by David Kahn (whom I trained and he's a good guy).... this book is worth a read... got a the basic KM techniques.... basically same same as Muay Thai punch, knee, elbow...some judo, and a few "tricks" as I like to call them.. .good stuff...

now yesterday I was down in Stiyodyong (sp????) a very famous muay thai camp in Pattaya which is 5 mins from my house. did a few good round on pads both thai and boxing, and and I was showing a few amazing "dirty tricks" that fit very nicely into the thai ring sport.

Now it got me thinking....the thai way of training is the most Superior way of training strikes on the planet. in my view.... so whats the point of training the elbows and knees like in David Kahns KM book, if your not going to do it properly like that Thai fighters are?

Your only kidding youself.

Other good news is I met a lad last night who is involved in Bangkok Fight Club , thailands main MMA club who is moving to pattaya soon, so I am hopefully hooking up soon, to get training in that ground range.

There is a bright future ahead lads!!!!!!

Serious, strikes got to be trainied intense MT style, there is no other answer...take that from some (me) with near 22 years in and out of MA, and a few real scrapes behind him too!

PS drinking and heavy drinking which often leads to keeping inferior company in inferior venues, is a total sure thing for getting into fights and violence. (as is cocaine use too, which can do serious things to your mindset). Since I got clean from drink and drugs, my life has reached a few level of peace and harmoney. funny things is i managed to keep up 4 nights of training through it all!!!!

Michael O Leary

Hi all,

Thanks for your comments so far.

john kavanagh wrote:

i think there's 2 questions

1. is it likely?

highly unlikely when you avoid places with drunk people....for the most part

Hi John, Yes, it is more unlikely that you will get attacked if you avoid these places but then going to places where there are drunk teenagers is imo a healthy part of growing up. I think it would be more unhealthy for a 16 year old to avoid these place than to go with a sense of measured confidence gained from self-defence training.

Hi Crazy Monkey,

My average 2 hour class goes as follows,

1. Between 5 and 10 minutes on forms
   
2. About 20 minutes on working the self-defence applications from the forms in isolation
   
3. About 15 minutes working the applications in a drill with high repedition in a moving situation
   
4. About another 15 mintues combining the application with all of the other applications learned so far into your "game" (semi-sparring/full-sparring exercise)
   
5. About another 30 minutes on Chi-Sau (sticky hands)
   
6. 30 minutes of pad-work.

I have not learned how to do multiple quotes on this forum yet and I want to quote you but will do it on my next post in 5 minutes.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Michael O Leary

Nothingcompares wrote:

The chances of this reoccuring are very slim, loike is she going to repeat the junior cert loike

Hi,

I don't know about this. Attacker go for "victims" especially when it comes to women whereas a man might attack another man for the challange of it and the "old fastest gunslinger in the west" type of attitude.

So if a woman or man is attacked and it takes away their confidence then they can take on the persona of a "victim" which makes it more likely they will be attacked again.

And with the girl having been attacked once, would you really say to her, "don't worry about learning self-defence, it is unlikely to happen again". This is a formative age for people and there experiences at this age can shape them for life. It is better they do something positive and learn self-defence so that they can get on with their life.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Nothingcompares

I dunno michael. When people come to me and say they want to learn self-defence, I always ask them why. And when they finish telling me why, I always say to myself, you don't need self defense training to stop this thing happening to you.

It's an interesting situation though. As I've implied the majority of people don't need self-defense training to defend themselves from attack but need self-defense training as a peace of mind placebo.

Like I'm just back from Dublin City centre myself and was out with a female friend who did some Kempo before she did judo. She's not self-defense obsessed but if she was, I'd give her a stern talking to. You can practice all the drills on the planet, but if you want to hang around O'connell street at 3am a bit drunk, trying to chat people up, eat your kebab, wander around etc. it's all a bit contradictiory. Common sense can't be thought in self-defense classes can it?

I was just wondering there the other day. Do any self-defense instuctors actually accompany their students on a field trip, highling bad areas, potential threats etc. Teach them to be more aware. I actually think it would be a good thing. Like go around town in groups of 2 and just say, look at that guy he looks dodgy lets stay two steps away from him. Or look, here is a big gang of drunk youths, let's cross the street and not get our asses slapped or harassed.

When I open my self-defense school I'm going to have field trips.

Michael O Leary

crazy monkey wrote:

Michael what exactly do you teach in your self defense class? Please don't tell me it's anything like when you do a cross hand butterfly block to sisarm your opponet then throw three jumping back kicks. Is it more "krav maga" or reality based self defense orientated?

So my definition of self defense knowing when to walk away and never thinking I should fight but if I have to Then I do as much damage to the opposition as fast and as hard as I can then I leave haste post haste....not out of panic but out of logic.

Yep, I 100% agree with you. There are no fancy kicks, the main kick is "like" the teep/teap in Muay Thai except that it is for striking rather than pushing. There is a side kick which is best used against the opponents knee when you have a hold of them in a clinch type situation however the kicks are secondary. The main strategy is as described in your second quoted paragraph, do as much damage (if the need calls for it) as fast and as hard as you can with punches/elbows/knees to the head. The advanced WT exercises are only there to make the basics work better.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Michael O Leary

Nothingcompares wrote:

When I open my self-defense school I'm going to have field trips.

Cool.:)

My original point is that some people have a need for self-defence training and this is a good thing as long as the training is provided in a responsible way whether this entails field trips (which I think is a great idea), my aforementioned drills or a combination of both.

However its always trying to find the balance. So you are out in town. Is it healthy to say, I won't drink in case it impaired my fighting ability (in case I get attacked) or I have the munchies (after snorting coke;) ) in which case I won't get a kebab. This can have an impact on the quality of your life.

My balance would be, learn how to defend yourself and go and enjoy yourself with beer and kebabs. If you get into a fight and win, great/if not then "c'est la vie", you did what you could. Take precautions but don't be afraid to go outside your front door.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Michael O Leary

Nothingcompares wrote:

the majority of people don't need self-defense training to defend themselves from attack but need self-defense training as a peace of mind placebo.

Is this a bad thing if it is does give you the ability to defend yourself?

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Nothingcompares

Well no, but taking self-defense training does not equal being able to defend yourself. I can take lessons in French by a crap French teacher with crap teaching methods but I won't be able to speak french. Sure, the ability to defend yourself is never a disadvantage.

Morse

judomick wrote:

Why could she not use her Kickboxing?, maybe the girl that punched her was a BJJ student?:eek:

But seriously why did she think her kickboxing didnt work?

Because a Dojo can not come close to replicating the violence of a street attack and the girls natural instincts kicked in, the 'fight or fright' scenario.

No matter how long your practicing MA, and no matter what style you and your opponent will always be governed by a set of rules.

Had the attack gone on much longer maybe the girl could have collected herself and regained enough composure to properly defend herself and possibly turn the tables on her attacker.

Millionaire

The person who is the most ferocious, fast and aggressive (and I hate to say it....violent) will win in the street...be it the criminal attacker, or the innocent defender.

Thats how it works.

Boru.

Removed.

Michael O Leary

Nothingcompares wrote:

the ability to defend yourself is never a disadvantage.

Hi Nothingcompares,

That was my original question. Learning how to defend yourself is an advantage as opposed to indicating that you are somehow mentally/emotionally unstable.

I just want to see if anyone can disagree with this basic premise with reference to the above example.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

judomick

Morse wrote:

Because a Dojo can not come close to replicating the violence of a street attack and the girls natural instincts kicked in, the 'fight or fright' scenario.

No matter how long your practicing MA, and no matter what style you and your opponent will always be governed by a set of rules.

Had the attack gone on much longer maybe the girl could have collected herself and regained enough composure to properly defend herself and possibly turn the tables on her attacker.

but a dojo can replicate the basic skills needed to control someone, with strikes or other techniques

your opponent will always be governed by a set of rules true, the same for the guys in dojo

possibly, i wouldnt advise anyone who attacked and beaten me to keep going a little longer so i can regain myself, if your reactions are that slow, id look at other avenues of training?

judomick

Michael O Leary wrote:

Learning how to defend yourself is an advantage as opposed to indicating that you are somehow mentally/emotionally unstable.

Michael ive spoke a little:D about the mindsets etc, learning to defend yourself is a perfectly normal, rational exercise people start for fun or fear both normal human states, however

if it is to the point that they now carry machetes or extendable batons around with them in the street(there was a thread a while back discussing torches with cerrated ends for maiming people), or train purely because the are going to be attacked and must be ready to gouge eyes and maim someone (this being a prevalent thought in their everyday functions) this in my opinion is unhealthy, would you not agree?

Scramble

It's not really clear from Michael's post whether the desire for more training is the idea of the daughter or the father. Maybe it's irrelevant, but it is interesting to me that what they're identifying as the problem here is her preparation for fighting- The idea being that her three years of kickboxing failed her so it's back to the drawing board for something else.

I'd be more inclined to say that this girl and her parents should look more closely at the context in which this assault happened. It may have been unprovoked and random ... But taking it in context, on the night and venue it occurred, it is far from being surprising. Junior-cert night is a busy night for the Gardai everywhere in the city, but the Point depot is a hothouse of pissed kids letting off steam by pushing each other around and trying to get off with one another.

As opposed to laying the blame on her physical skills, I think both she and her parents would be best served by acknowledging that maybe it wasn't the safest venue in the world to attend that night, and trying to learn from it.

If, after that, she still wants to train more then fair enough. But if it is with a view to having this training enable her to go to as many dodgy places as she likes and avoid being punched in the face then I'd say that neither she nor her parents genuinely prioritise her safety.

john kavanagh

Millionaire wrote:

....the thai way of training is the most Superior way of training strikes on the planet. in my view.... so whats the point of training the elbows and knees like in David Kahns KM book, if your not going to do it properly like that Thai fighters are?

Your only kidding youself.

agree 100%

john kavanagh

Michael O Leary wrote:

My balance would be, learn how to defend yourself and go and enjoy yourself with beer and kebabs. If you get into a fight and win, great/if not then "c'est la vie", you did what you could. Take precautions but don't be afraid to go outside your front door.

lol, who ever suggested you should be 'afraid to go outside your door'? it really aint that bad out there

"About another 15 mintues combining the application with all of the other applications learned so far into your "game" (semi-sparring/full-sparring exercise)"

out of interest is this about 15mins sparring per session? and what type of sparring? 'mma' style or kickboxing'ish? thanks

Morse

judomick wrote:

but a dojo can replicate the basic skills needed to control someone, with strikes or other techniques

your opponent will always be governed by a set of rules true, the same for the guys in dojo

possibly, i wouldnt advise anyone who attacked and beaten me to keep going a little longer so i can regain myself, if your reactions are that slow, id look at other avenues of training?

Yes, although a Dojo can replicate the skills required I truely don't believe it can prepare you for that initial shock when someone attacks you for real. And thats why I said that had the fight gone on longer the girl may have composed herself enough to fight back and maybe turn the tables. In over 15 yrs working doors I've been in the same situation myself, where I'm taken by suprise but I've the benefit of experience to know that I can very quickly retaliate. A young girl of 16 doesn't neccessarily possess those abilities, yet!.

Example, my son (he's 14) was recently attacked and mugged a few weeks ago. He was assaulted also. He's also a very experienced kickboxer but the scumbag still caught him by suprise, made his attack and fled before my son could do much to defend himself. He felt like **** about it, but I explained how I seen it, which is pretty much like I've typed here.

I think the girl would be feeling the same way, poor thing.

I also think she should continue with her kickboxing as a sport if thats what she enjoys. Alot of kickboxing clubs require their students to learn some SD as part of their grading, but its pretty useless.

Honestly, I don't think a club as hope to ever come close to preparing someone for the shock of street violence. But it will give us the skills to hold out and turn from defender to attacker and then flee the scene, which is what I'd advice any girl/boy/woman or even a guy.

Michael O Leary

judomick wrote:

if it is to the point that they now carry machetes or extendable batons around with them in the street(there was a thread a while back discussing torches with cerrated ends for maiming people), or train purely because the are going to be attacked and must be ready to gouge eyes and maim someone (this being a prevalent thought in their everyday functions) this in my opinion is unhealthy, would you not agree?

Yep 100%, but this is an extreme view and different from the average person taking up a martial art so as to defend themselve and feel a bit more confident.

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Michael O Leary

Boru. wrote:

Sure I might be trained in self defence, but why would I ever want to put myself in a position where i may be injured in trying to use it? I prefer staying at home with a good book.

There is no longer any need to go to what I consider high risk areas for your amusement - you don't have to go into O'connel street to see the movies you can go to dundrum or liffey valley, or better still rent the movie and watch it int he comfort of your owen home.

Hi Boru,

With respect,:)

You might prefer staying at home reading a good book but what if you didn't?The main jist of my question is emotional health/mindset and how it relates to martial arts/self-defence. Is it not more "healthy" to learn how defend yourself so that you can go out, have a few beers and enjoy yourself rather than staying at home because of potential dangers.

There may be not any "need" to go to O'Connell Street at night but if humans only did what they really "needed" to do we would still be living in the trees.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Michael O Leary

john kavanagh wrote:

lol, who ever suggested you should be 'afraid to go outside your door'? it really aint that bad out there

"About another 15 mintues combining the application with all of the other applications learned so far into your "game" (semi-sparring/full-sparring exercise)"

out of interest is this about 15mins sparring per session? and what type of sparring? 'mma' style or kickboxing'ish? thanks

Hi John,:)

Some people suggest staying away from certain places to be the best type of self-defence with the implication that you don't need seperate SD training.

My point is that O'Connell Street for me at night is not such a high risk area that I would avoid going there and also that it is probably better for a 16 year old to go to places with other teenagers equiped with a reasonable level of self-defence than tell her to avoid these places.

Being exposed to risk is a part of life. I suppose you just need to establish what is an acceptable level.

Regarding sparring, in order for me to answer properly can you tell me the difference between kickboxing sparring and MMA sparring?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Morse

Boru. wrote:

There is no longer any need to go to what I consider high risk areas for your amusement - you don't have to go into O'connel street to see the movies you can go to dundrum or liffey valley, or better still rent the movie and watch it int he comfort of your owen home.

.

My son was mugged in Balgriffin cemetary!.

I didn't think it got less 'low risk' than a grave yard!.

john kavanagh

Michael O Leary wrote:

Being exposed to risk is a part of life. I suppose you just need to establish what is an acceptable level.

of course. i would never offer the advice of 'staying in' for the rest of your life as 'good self defence'. just be smart about it, avoid obvious danger spots.

Michael O Leary wrote:

probably better for a 16 year old to go to places with other teenagers equiped with a reasonable level of self-defence than tell her to avoid these places.

well it depends where those places are, like i said above you gotta be smart. the next question is now what is a 'reasonable level' of self defence. how much 'fight' can a 16yr old girl have, realistically and how would you test that?

Michael O Leary wrote:

Regarding sparring, in order for me to answer properly can you tell me the difference between kickboxing sparring and MMA sparring?

kickboxing sparring - only stand-up unattached striking with limited (if any) clinch

mma sparring - mixing Stand-up, Clinch and Ground - grappling and striking.

Michael O Leary

john kavanagh wrote:

the next question is now what is a 'reasonable level' of self defence. how much 'fight' can a 16yr old girl have, realistically and how would you test that?

kickboxing sparring - only stand-up unattached striking with limited (if any) clinch

mma sparring - mixing Stand-up, Clinch and Ground - grappling and striking.

Hi John,

We work stand-up, clinch and ground. It is a work in progress but getting better all the time. My 7/8(?) Muay Thai classes have helped and I enjoy throwing some MT stuff in so that the WT opponent has more of an idea of what to expect. Any pointers would be appreciated.

How much fight can a 16 year old girl have? Well I think back a year or two ago when 2 fellas tried to pull an 8 year old boy into a car down the country. The boy punched his attacker on the nose, got free and was able to escape on his bike. (He did Kempo/Kenpo) You could question how much fight he has (and it is a fair question) but at the end of the day, some is better than none. If that "some" means you carry yourself with a little more confidence which will make you less likely to be attacked then that is good.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Roper

Boru. wrote:

Great Idea, and one ythe RBPP system uses. Particualrly during the crime survival. We take the students out intot eh city folwo them, have them practice counter-survllance technqiues and then we pracice formt he alternate perspective of he criminal and show them how victims of stret crime ar identified. We have the students actively practice calling hard and soft tagets and by understanding that they cna better protect themselves.

We used to do this years ago, except we didn't call it training we called it "playing spy". Basically, you and your mate try to follow another mate undetected for a while, then you switch around. Its a great training drill alright, but it helps if you're between the age of 7 and 10 and can pull a gun/laser if you get detected. We made it more "STREET" realistic by making the guy who got shot lie down "dead" for twenty seconds.

Honestly Boru, you don't go for a drink with friends so as not to get into a fight? Now THAT is paranoia.

Kent Brockman

This is a very interesting topic.

First of all I'm not so sure a few SD classes are going to turn this young girl into the type of person who is going to "mill in" when punches start flying among drunken youths.


Two cases come to mind from my school days:
One guy was constantly being bullied -did weights,took kickboxing classes and the ordinary blokes in the class knew probably not to mess with him.Problem was he was still afraid of the bully and continued to be bullied.

Another small,quiet chap was constantly being teased and bullied he had a bad temper and people enjoyed winding him up.He became very good at kenpo and turned into a very dangerous thug who kicked the crap out of people on sat nights for years and mostly for little or no reason.:mad:

Anyone who thinks all their problems (bullying/intimidation/fear etc) can be solved by joining a martial arts club, particularly if the decision is a direct result of a bad incident ,are in my opinion making a bad decision.
Either the problem will remain because of mind set or the person will themselves become the thug on a little power trip.

I was bullied for years at school but this is because I was a coward with a smart mouth (bad bad combo believe me!..always on the run!) but I dont think joining the local boxing/karate club would have changed anything.

I joined SBG on my 34th birthday to get fit and have a bit of fun (really to learn arm bars as I'm a big UFC fan) and although rolling etc has probably given me more confidence I still dont see myself hanging around when trouble starts!

To make a long story boring...
We can all head butt, eye gouge , kick in the nuts,bite ,kick on shins or strike the throat which will usually give anyone time to run away:D (now who wants to mug me:D )

Boring myself now. best SD =aviod or if not possible all of the above.
Please discuss...etc....etc.

Boru.

Removed

john kavanagh

Michael O Leary wrote:

We work stand-up, clinch and ground.

cool!:)

so what would be the best day to drop out for some mma sparring? be good to work with some different parterns for a change. if you guys ever want to drop out to us then thursday 8-10pm would be the best for this type of training

thanks

jk

Michael O Leary

Hi John,

As you remember I did ask you before for BJJ classes but as you said it was a bad time for you I took up Muay Thai instead. So thanks for the invite, I am looking at January for some BJJ with you and we can go from there.

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

i think you misunderstood me

you said you guys spar stand-up, clinch and ground. i was asking when a few of us could drop out to you to participate. it'd be good for my lads to have a few new sparring partners and as a coach i'd be interested in seeing how you teach and train these ranges, i'm always open to learning new things!

thanks

edit: just clicked your link and see you have a sat 2-3.30pm class, thats perfect! thanks and see you soon

Colm_OReilly

My own two cents.

Michael, for someone who was talking about the MMA guys using rhetoric your OP is certainly loaded.

Firstly, let me make it clear that I do emphasise with the girl, and it was a ****ty thing to happen.

If she is looking to bolster confidence, she's looking at the wrong channels. As someone who works with people on confidence, the hardest thing is to get them to see that confidence shouldn't be conditional on something. Or to put it another way, it should come from the inside, and only true confidence does come from the inside.

Also, her desire to now learn SD, adn we'll assume it's hers, is a reaction to overcome the feeling she now has of being a victim. Reactions are bad, as they're from Fear. Action is good. Responding to something is good. Reaction is bad. (I'm not referring to reflex.)

The next question that would arise is "what should she do?". Well, first of all it's not my place to tell her what to do. But I would suggest that she takes some time to accept the fact that it did happen, as chances are she's running the scenario through her mind again and again asking what she could have done differently. The truth is she can't change the past, and she did the best she could with the knowledge and experience she had at the time. If she could accept the past, then she could move into action. That would, by far, be a healthier thing than rushing into a new SD.

But since we're Westerners, and we like action to solve things. Exercise will increase her confidence, as it releases all those feel good emotions. Also a feeling of security is what she's probably after, so associating with her closest friends/ones she'd trust more than others will help her.

Apart from that I don't see why she shouldn't question her peer group, her choice of venue and drinking habits. But whether she's at a place to accept her responsibility and examine her life I can't say.

Colm

Scramble

But I would suggest that she takes some time to accept the fact that it did happen, as chances are she's running the scenario through her mind again and again asking what she could have done differently. The truth is she can't change the past, and she did the best she could with the knowledge and experience she had at the time. If she could accept the past, then she could move into action. That would, by far, be a healthier thing than rushing into a new SD.

Yeah, definitley agree with Colm on the above.

Michael O Leary

Hi Colm,

I see that you are drawing on your qualifications as a self-improvement coach to contribute to this thread. Fair enough but if you don't mind I am going to do a bit of nit-picking and see where it leads. It may seem pedantic but hey ("shrugs".)

With regard to the girl and her situation you said that you cannot see why she shouldn't question her peer group, etc. Yes I agree with you but ultimately there is a level of risk with everything. You cannot allow yourself or others to be shielded from the world. But lets assume both she and her parents did question the choice of venue and balance the risk against an important part of a young girls social development and decided, "yeah, go ahead and enjoy yourself but take precautions". Part of taking precautions is having a level of self-defence. Would you not agree?

You said that a reaction to something is bad and a responce to something is good. Would you mind elaborating on this so that I can see where you are coming from and give you my responce rather than my reaction?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Roper

This topic took a remarkable upturn after Clive's comment, then petered out a bit, then was booming when Boru took up Nothingcompares field trip comment seriously, only to descend into mediocrity again. I don't think topics like this actually get us anywhere without training together.

Clive

Never fear - no doubt I'll be locked next weekend and will contribute some more pearls of wisdom.

Michael O Leary

Roper wrote:

This topic took a remarkable upturn after Clive's comment, then petered out a bit, then was booming when Boru took up Nothingcompares field trip comment seriously, only to descend into mediocrity again. I don't think topics like this actually get us anywhere without training together.

Hi Roper,:)

Nice to hear from you. Do you have anything to contribute to my original point?

Do you think that self-defence is a fine life skill that you would have your son do as well?

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

john kavanagh

Roper wrote:

I don't think topics like this actually get us anywhere without training together.

agree 100%

Michael O Leary

Clive wrote:

Never fear - no doubt I'll be locked next weekend and will contribute some more pearls of wisdom.

What about you Clive? You have stated that while you do MMA you do not conform to the, "eat lots of veg before taking up self-defence for self-preservation rational". As you are on this thread how do you feel about self-defence as a healthy life skill?

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

Clive

Michael O Leary wrote:

how do you feel about self-defence as a healthy life skill?

Skills are simply skills, it's the uses we put them to that can be valued.

I do however believe that boys should be taught some sort of fighting from the cradle.

Michael O Leary

Clive wrote:

Skills are simply skills, it's the uses we put them to that can be valued.

I do however believe that boys should be taught some sort of fighting from the cradle.

Hi Clive,

Would you mind elaborating on this a little especially the first line which by itself is a little abstract? (For me:) )

With regard to the second line, while I agree that there are some self-defence "nuts" out there, can you see a scenario where learning self-defence can have a positive impact on a persons life?

John Kavanagh and Colm O'Reilly,

As both of you claim to teach self-defence on your websites, can you answer this question also?

Regards,

Michael O'Leary
www.wingtsun-escrima.ie

paxo

Clive wrote:

Skills are simply skills, it's the uses we put them to that can be valued.

I do however believe that boys should be taught some sort of fighting from the cradle.

I agree with Clive. The development of fighting skill is no different from the development of any other skill eg swimming or driveing. These skills can be used for recreation, competition, financial gain or self preservation. In the example of swimming this would be, splashing around in the pool, Olympics, swim coach, drown proof. Now how proficient I am at these various aspects of swimming will depend on my athletic ability, access to swim coaches, personal preference, my environment etc.
Now will this skill guarantee that I never drown. Of course not that will depend on the circumstances, eg weather conditions, distance from land etc.
Will it significantly improve my chances in most circumstances, yes.

If we consider driving skills in the same way we have, the sunday arvo drive,
rally driving, taxi driving, crash prevention. So will good skills ensure that I never crash. Of course not as I can not control other road users or the weather or environment. Will good skills improve my chances of completeing my journey safely, yes

It is worth considering that in the above examples we use the same basic skill set regardless of the purpose, although it may be slightly modified eg freestyle raceing stroke V freestyle stroke.

Fighting skills may be used for recreation, competetion, financial gain or self preservation. The same basic skill set should suffice. Will fighting skills ensure that we are always safe in the big bad world, only in Hollywood. Will they increase our chances of staying safe, generally yes

Paxo