IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bomblets in Lebanon

philologos

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

An Israeli commander claims to have fired over 1 million cluster bombs over Lebanon during the crisis against Hizbullah. The article is from an Israeli source.

feel free to discuss

Manic Moran

[Edit]

Misleading subject title. I did some maths on cluster bombs, not bomblets. I've no particular quarrel with the statement otherwise, though I do note how the article goes from 'Phosphorous is banned' to 'Phosphorous is controversial' in a couple of paragraphs.

NTM

philologos

they covered complete towns in them? (subject title was the same as article title you'll find) does that not sound outrageous??

gandalf

Yep the article is misleading the actual quote is

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

But I do agree with the sentiment it was monsterous and will be a deadly harvest that the Lebanese will reap over the next few years.

bonkey

Jakkass wrote:

they covered complete towns in them? (subject title was the same as article title you'll find) does that not sound outrageous??

Does what sound outrageous? The question that they may have covered towns? The suggestion that it may be true? The reality which we don't know behind the question/allegation?

TBH, it sounds no less outrageous than much of what else we've heard about the conflict, from either side.

Don't want to be pedantic but shouldn't the topic title be changed to either read 1,800 cluster bombs or over 1 m bomblets?

gandalf

Well actually Conor because the thread title is the title of the article in referenced in the Haaretz newspaper I will leave it.

Manic Moran

I guess they could have used a greater amount of unitary warheads instead, and killed/maimed everybody sooner.

Not sure quite how that helps anyone though.

NTM

philologos

They fired 90% of those in the final hours of the conflict, many haven't exploded yet... 90% of those 1,800 bombs is quite a lot to fire down in a few hours..

Edit: I changed the title

Hogmeister B

That's a nasty little war crime they have going there.

Mick86

Jakkass wrote:

An Israeli commander claims to have fired over 1 million cluster bombs over Lebanon during the crisis against Hizbullah. The article is from an Israeli source.

Really? Should anyone care?

Jakkass wrote:

they covered complete towns in them???

Have you a photo of a town (try Reuters) completely covered in cluster bombs?

Jakkass wrote:

(subject title was the same as article title you'll find) does that not sound outrageous??

Only to the terminally melodramatic.

Hogmeister B wrote:

That's a nasty little war crime they have going there.

Sorry to disappoint you but dropping cluster bombs isn't a war crime. Not even for the Israelis. Neither is dropping "butterfly mines".

Manic Moran

By thewaythey aren't fired, they are dropped.

Well, the proper term should be cluster munitions. You can shoot them out of rocket launchers and artillery pieces as well as dropping them. Don't think I've ever heard of a cluster munition for a mortar though, but that would qualify as a bomb which is fired. (Albeit you do drop it into the tube in the first place)

NTM

philologos

Mick86 wrote:

Really? Should anyone care?

Now I wonder whats the point posting any form of current affairs in here at all
Also hundreds of Lebanese died, ideally you should care but thats your choice...

uberpixie

Mick86 wrote:

Really? Should anyone care?

Sorry to disappoint you but dropping cluster bombs isn't a war crime. Not even for the Israelis. Neither is dropping "butterfly mines".

It is a war crime when you drop them on a predominantly civillian area indiscriminantly.

Which is what they have done.

Sand

Have you a photo of a town (try Reuters) completely covered in cluster bombs?

Given the photoshop skills of Reuters photographers those photos mightnt be all that hard to produce

It is a war crime when you drop them on a predominantly civillian area indiscriminantly.

Which is what they have done.

Is it? I would have thought it would be when you drop them on civillians. Have they?

Akrasia

Sand wrote:

Is it? I would have thought it would be when you drop them on civillians. Have they?

Any indiscriminate attacks against civilians are a war crime, and you can't get much more indiscriminate than cluster bombs which are designed to blanket wide areas with explosives, many of which remain active for years after they are deployed.

I think it's extremely revealing how quick some people on here are to defend the indefensible actions of the IDF. (while crying like wounded babies that there isn't enouigh condenmation of Hezbollah from others)

tallus

Sand wrote:

Given the photoshop skills of Reuters photographers those photos mightnt be all that hard to produce



Is it? I would have thought it would be when you drop them on civillians. Have they?

From the article in the link:
IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon
By Meron Rappaport

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Surely covering entire towns in cluster bombs is the same as dropping them on civillians. Not that the IDF actually distinguish between civilian and combatants.

FYI

bomblet:

"One of a number of small bombs usually contained in a cluster bomb and released in midair."

There is absolutely no point arguing over the title of the post or the article.

While these 'small' bombs may be fired together, they often 'work' independently as land mines on contact with the ground. They are dispersed over a wide area, and therefore replicate the firing/dropping of many bombs.

Bomblets is much more user friendly though. If you want to diminish the crime.

Mick86

Jakkass wrote:

Also hundreds of Lebanese died, ideally you should care but thats your choice...

I'm not an idealist. And I chose not to care.

uberpixie wrote:

It is a war crime when you drop them on a predominantly civillian area indiscriminantly.

Which is what they have done.

I take it you mean that they dropped these bombs indiscriminately. Do you have any proof that they were dropped indiscriminately on civilian areas where no military targets were present?

Akrasia wrote:

Any indiscriminate attacks against civilians are a war crime, and you can't get much more indiscriminate than cluster bombs which are designed to blanket wide areas with explosives, many of which remain active for years after they are deployed.

Again that depends on whether there were military targets in the area.

Akrasia wrote:

I think it's extremely revealing how quick some people on here are to defend the indefensible actions of the IDF. (while crying like wounded babies that there isn't enouigh condenmation of Hezbollah from others)

I find it equally revealing that some people heap all the blame on Israel while refusing to criticise the Lebanese terrorists and their supporters.

FYI wrote:

While these 'small' bombs may be fired together, they often 'work' independently as land mines on contact with the ground. They are dispersed over a wide area, and therefore replicate the firing/dropping of many bombs.

They aren't land mines. They are all supposed to detonate on contact but they frequently don't. The unexploded ones are very unstable and shouldn't be touched but the Lebanese have an unnerving habit of picking unexploded munitions up and dropping them off at the nearest UN post.

FYI wrote:

Bomblets is much more user friendly though. If you want to diminish the crime.

What crime?

Hogmeister B

Mick86 wrote:

They aren't land mines. They are all supposed to detonate on contact but they frequently don't. The unexploded ones are very unstable and shouldn't be touched but the Lebanese have an unnerving habit of picking unexploded munitions up and dropping them off at the nearest UN post.

The bomblets also have an unnerving habit of killing or maiming children. That's the one that worries me. As it should all other human beings.

Sesshoumaru

Hogmeister B wrote:

The bomblets also have an unnerving habit of killing or maiming children. That's the one that worries me. As it should all other human beings.

Hezbollah terrorists have an unnerving habit of using rifle butts to crack open the skulls of young jewish children. That worries me more. Hezbollah operates out of these towns in the south of Lebanon with the full support of the "civilian" population. I don't see it as any different from attacking an armys supply lines or logistical support units.

tallus

What does a child know about supply lines? and secondly as far as I know hezbollah weren't formed until 1982 ?

Lemming

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Hezbollah terrorists have an unnerving habit of using rifle butts to crack open the skulls of young jewish children.

"Children" you say? I read singular (both victim and perpetrator), not plural. What one person does does not an organisation make.

You could just as easily say that Israeli soldiers shoot children for 'the craic like' by finding any number of articles on google (God knows there's enough out there unfortunately)

That worries me more.

Why? The end result is the same? Would you support someone who killed another human being by shooting them instead? How about gasing them? Suffocating them in their sleep? Starving them? droppingclustermunitionsonthem?

It's all the same at the end of the day and I find it disturbing that anyone would try to make some sort of moral distinction between death by munition and death by ... well pretty much anything else.

I also find it curious that you are playing the "OMG WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" routine. How abou tthe other three people that died in that article you mentioned. Don't they deserve equal mention?

Hezbollah operates out of these towns in the south of Lebanon with the full support of the "civilian" population.

That's quite a sweeping statement to make. So the population deserves to be bombed out of it? How is that any different to Hezbollah shooting at Israeli citizens since they "fully" support the Israeli military? It isn't.

I don't see it as any different from attacking an armys supply lines or logistical support units.

What's sauce for the goose ....

Sesshoumaru

tallus wrote:

What does a child know about supply lines? and secondly as far as I know hezbollah weren't formed until 1982 ?

Does it matter? Hezbollah captures IDF soldiers so they can have monsters like Samir Kuntar released. Just look at his picture! Pure evil! and yet he is celebrated hero back in Lebanon.

No I don't want any children to die and I'm sure the vast majority of Israeli's would feel the same as well. Thats not however how a lot terrorists and their "civilian" supporters feel about Jewish children. Apparently they are legitimate targets.

Sesshoumaru

Why? The end result is the same? Would you support someone who killed another human being by shooting them instead? How about gasing them? Suffocating them in their sleep? Starving them? droppingclustermunitionsonthem?

It's all the same at the end of the day and I find it disturbing that anyone would try to make some sort of moral distinction between death by munition and death by ... well pretty much anything else.

I also find it curious that you are playing the "OMG WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" routine. How abou tthe other three people that died in that article you mentioned. Don't they deserve equal mention?

You are right, dead is dead. But it's not the method of execution I found more worrying, it was who died because of it that caused me more worry.
I'm not playing that routine. In fact I'm sick of seeing people going on and on about "the children". But in particular I'm sick of hearing about Lebanese children dying. We've seen enough of them paraded before cameras for the MSM enough now to last a life time. I was just merely pointing out that Jewish children die as well at the hands of Muslim terrorists like Samir Kuntar for instance. Since no one seemed to be thinking of the children :rolleyes: The Jewish children that is.

That's quite a sweeping statement to make. So the population deserves to be bombed out of it? How is that any different to Hezbollah shooting at Israeli citizens since they "fully" support the Israeli military? It isn't.

I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sesshoumaru wrote:

But in particular I'm sick of hearing about Lebanese children dying.

You think we should not hear about the hundreds of children killed by Israel during their little jaunt into Lebanon?

I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

Very convienent for you is it not?

Sesshoumaru

You think we should not hear about the hundreds of children killed by Israel during their little jaunt into Lebanon?

I didn't say that. I just said I was sick of seeing the dead bodies of children paraded in front of cameras as some kind of victory by the terrorists who used these children as human shields in the first place.

Very convienent for you is it not?

Unfortunately we haven't developed weapon systems that can read peoples minds and hearts yet. Until then there is still a war to be fought against muslim terrorists and they don't seem to want to follow our gentlemans rulebook for fighting wars. What can you do? Never fire a missile until your 100% sure a real civilian won't die?

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

You are right, dead is dead. But it's not the method of execution I found more worrying, it was who died because of it that caused me more worry.
I'm not playing that routine. In fact I'm sick of seeing people going on and on about "the children". But in particular I'm sick of hearing about Lebanese children dying. We've seen enough of them paraded before cameras for the MSM enough now to last a life time. I was just merely pointing out that Jewish children die as well at the hands of Muslim terrorists like Samir Kuntar for instance. Since no one seemed to be thinking of the children :rolleyes: The Jewish children that is.



I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

So how on earth did they manage to kill over 1000 civilians then?

Why did the Israelis keep firing on the UN post resulting in the deaths of 4 UN observers?

Its quite simple, this was no precision exercise, this was a deliberate attempt by the IDF to hurt and punish the Lebanese people. Obviously shrouded with the unrealistic goals of destroying Hizbollah and the retrieval of 2 soldiers by what can only be described as some very pumped up Israeli generals and polititians living in some fantasy world.

As usual the doctored images issue creeps in.. hmm a few doctored images vs the future deaths and maimings of many Lebanese civilians by unneccessarily used cluster munitions.

Sesshoumaru

So how on earth did they manage to kill over 1000 civilians then?

Muslim terrorists don't wear army uniforms do they? I accept many civilians died. But I don't believe its possible to tally how many died. The muslim terrorists used civilians as human shields and didn't wear any uniforms themselves. In these circumstances how can you accurately count how many real civilians died?

Why did the Israelis keep firing on the UN post resulting in the deaths of 4 UN observers?

Well lets see what one of the dead UN observers had to say a few days before he died shall we?

In an email dated 18 July received by CTV and published 24 July, the deceased Canadian peacekeeper Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, stated: “What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.”[25]

According to retired Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, interviewed on CBC radio on 26 July, Hess-von Kruedener's phrase ‘due to tactical necessity’ was “veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them.”[15][26] [27]

Oh what a shock :rolleyes: Muslim terrorists using innocents as human shields? No it can't be! Islam is a religion of peace :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I didn't say that. I just said I was sick of seeing the dead bodies of children paraded in front of cameras as some kind of victory by the terrorists who used these children as human shields in the first place.

So you do not want to hear about children being killed by Israelis?

Unfortunately we haven't developed weapon systems that can read peoples minds and hearts yet. Until then there is still a war to be fought against muslim terrorists and they don't seem to want to follow our gentlemans rulebook for fighting wars. What can you do? Never fire a missile until your 100% sure a real civilian won't die?

As I said, very convienent for you then.

tallus

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Muslim terrorists don't wear army uniforms do they? I accept many civilians died. But I don't believe its possible to tally how many died. The muslim terrorists used civilians as human shields and didn't wear any uniforms themselves. In these circumstances how can you accurately count how many real civilians died?



Well lets see what one of the dead UN observers had to say a few days before he died shall we?



Oh what a shock :rolleyes: Muslim terrorists using innocents as human shields? No it can't be! Islam is a religion of peace :rolleyes:

So you think it's ok that Israel builds munition factories in Arab neighbourhoods, which is tantamount to the same thing. Israel is also a proponent of terror too but you conviniently ignore that fact.

Sesshoumaru

So you think it's ok that Israel builds munition factories in Arab neighbourhoods, which is tantamount to the same thing. Israel is also a proponent of terror too but you conviniently ignore that fact.

Israel is a small country and those munition factories have to go somewhere. How can you honestly say you know with complete certainty they were located in Arab districts simply because they were Arab districts? and are you going to provide some source for that claim?

So you do not want to hear about children being killed by Israelis?

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Yes I know children died! It could hardly have slipped my notice since they like to wheel them back out of ambulances just so the media can get a better propaganda shot. I've seen the dead children, I don't wish to or need to see anymore. Do you like to keep watching images and videos of dead children?

As I said, very convienent for you then.

Modern warfare is as much about propaganda as it is about killing your enemy. So no I don't find it very convenient. In fact its very inconvenient. But like I said, should we never fire that bullet/missile/rocket/artillery shell until we are 100% certain a real civilian won't die? Its real world versus fantasy world.

tallus

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Israel is a small country and those munition factories have to go somewhere. How can you honestly say you know with complete certainty they were located in Arab districts simply because they were Arab districts? and are you going to provide some source for that claim?

I'd have thought it was more than chance that they built those factories where they did, but you're welcome to your opinion, as am I. The only difference is, I dont believe that it is by chance.
*edit* in responce to your earlier question no I can't find proof of that but searching for links, I have read about it somewhere.

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

But like I said, should we never fire that bullet/missile/rocket/artillery shell until we are 100% certain a real civilian won't die? Its real world versus fantasy world.

You have to weigh it up and say "Is this round more likely to kill a combattant or some kid playing in the field in three years time?". Not what is the logical conclusion if you fire 1m+ sub-munitions?

Realise that the Americans decided that (their own) cluster munitions were a military hazard in Iraq, not just a safety hazard.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

But like I said, should we never fire that bullet/missile/rocket/artillery shell until we are 100% certain a real civilian won't die?

Not necessarily, but 'we' should refrain from firing such bullets/missiles/rockets/artillery shells into civilian areas, such as apartment blocks in South Beirut and villages in southern Lebanon.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

Or sick. Or doesn't have a car.

It is a moral repugnance to suggest that one can simply drop leaflets, and then treat everyone as fair game. That would be a war crime of considerable proportions.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Since no one seemed to be thinking of the children :rolleyes: The Jewish children that is.

It should be pointed out that the number of Jewish children being killed by Arabs does not even begin to approach the number of Muslim children being killed by the Israelis. At least one quarter of those killed by the Israeli army are children.

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Muslim terrorists don't wear army uniforms do they? I accept many civilians died. But I don't believe its possible to tally how many died. The muslim terrorists used civilians as human shields and didn't wear any uniforms themselves. In these circumstances how can you accurately count how many real civilians died?

I don't think Lebanese people are very stupid, I also don't think they want to die. I think its logical to say that if a bunch of Hezbollah fighters.. sorry "muslim terrorists".. turned up in any town, occupied any house, that the Lebanese locals would stick around very long what with the IDF bombing the hell out of the place. People run away from bombs and bullets. They don't hang around with Hezbollah fighters. They probably get as far away from them as possible. Face it, Israel had little or no concern for human life in Lebanon, the only concern they seemed to show was a realisation that the outside world was watching them, not that that overly bothers them anyway.

If you agree with the Israeli tactics why don't you think the Americans are using these same tactics in Iraq? ..

Leaflet drop, wait a day, flatten the town, try to destroy every house, drop cluster bombs, then move onto the next town. Do you think that would weaken or strengthen the insurgency?

Personally, my own opinion is that its a terrible tactic and if you want to beat terrorists, "muslim terrorists", insurgents, militants,etc you have to do it some other way, rather than flattening the place and giving a "well we told you so" to any dead civilians.

Sesshoumaru

If you are so horrified at the death toll amongst Lebanese children why not write some letters to Hezbollah and ask them to wear uniforms? and maybe not fire missiles from Lebanese civilian areas into Israeli civilian areas while you are at it? I mean they are obviously a well funded organisation. Surely they could fit some uniforms into this years budget?

It should be pointed out that the number of Jewish children being killed by Arabs does not even begin to approach the number of Muslim children being killed by the Israelis. At least one quarter of those killed by the Israeli army are children.

Whats your point? If the muslim terrorists had the military advantage you can be sure they would be killing a lot more Israeli citizens than they have now. Look at the rockets they fired into northern Israel. Were those precision guided munitions? Were Hezbollahs rockets targeting military installations in Israel? Maybe you are suggesting Israel should only kill the same number of Muslims as Jews that get blown up by suicide bombers? Is that the "proportional response" that so many people kept banging on about? Would that satisfy everyone here?

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Look at the rockets they fired into northern Israel. Were those precision guided munitions? Were Hezbollahs rockets targeting military installations in Israel? Maybe you are suggesting Israel should only kill the same number of Muslims as Jews that get blown up by suicide bombers? Is that the "proportional response" that so many people kept banging on about? Would that satisfy everyone here?

Two thirds of Israelis killed were soliders. A minimum of two thirds of Lebanese killed were civilians.

Sesshoumaru

Frederico wrote:

I don't think Lebanese people are very stupid, I also don't think they want to die. I think its logical to say that if a bunch of Hezbollah fighters.. sorry "muslim terrorists".. turned up in any town, occupied any house, that the Lebanese locals would stick around very long what with the IDF bombing the hell out of the place. People run away from bombs and bullets. They don't hang around with Hezbollah fighters. They probably get as far away from them as possible. Face it, Israel had little or no concern for human life in Lebanon, the only concern they seemed to show was a realisation that the outside world was watching them, not that that overly bothers them anyway.

If you agree with the Israeli tactics why don't you think the Americans are using these same tactics in Iraq? ..

Leaflet drop, wait a day, flatten the town, try to destroy every house, drop cluster bombs, then move onto the next town. Do you think that would weaken or strengthen the insurgency?

Personally, my own opinion is that its a terrible tactic and if you want to beat terrorists, "muslim terrorists", insurgents, militants,etc you have to do it some other way, rather than flattening the place and giving a "well we told you so" to any dead civilians.

Well I don't agree with what you say. But for arguements sake can you tell me how you think Israel should have dealt with Hezbollah? A non state entity directly on their border with massive support and backing from Syria and Iran. Oh and of course the obligatory useless UN "peacekeeping" force.
Weapons/rockets stockpiled - check
Bunkers in place - check
Indoctrinated fanatical followers - check
Desire & will to destroy Israel - check
I really want to know how Israel should have removed the Hezbollah threat?

Sesshoumaru

Victor wrote:

Two thirds of Israelis killed were soliders. A minimum of two thirds of Lebanese killed were civilians.

Well better write to the UN and demand to know why Hezbollah fighters weren't wearing uniforms and obeying international rules on the conduct of war. The highly efficent and effective UN will get right on it. I'm sure :rolleyes: Oh and before I forget, the IDF do wear UNIFORMS. Makes it easier for the terrorists to distinguish between soldier and civilian. Oh and I don't recall them stationing artillery or rocket launchers inside their citys. Maybe thats why more of their soldiers die?

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Oh and I don't recall them stationing artillery or rocket launchers inside their citys.

But apparently they do put military factories, naval bases and the like in cities.

Oh, would you consider these people to be wearing uniforms? (I exclude the fireman) http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/CIA_SAD

Sesshoumaru

Victor wrote:

But apparently they do put military factories, naval bases and the like in cities.

Oh, would you consider these people to be wearing uniforms? (I exclude the fireman) http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/CIA_SAD

Sources? My point is they don't drive a division of artillery into suburb or a rocket launcher platform and start firing from there.

The photos.... care to give me some background info? Who is Johnny Michael Spann? These guys aren't even Israeli soldiers? In fact whats the point in these photos? They're Americans working for the CIA.

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Sources? My point is they don't drive a division of artillery into suburb or a rocket launcher platform and start firing from there.

Hezbollah don't have a division of soldiers, never mind a division of artillery.

I can't give you sources because of Israeli military censors. But look between the old city and the oil tanks in Haifa. Its the bit with the low grade photos on googlemaps.com http://local.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=14&ll=32.822624,35.009651&spn=0.03354,0.05785&t=k&om=1

The IAF foes however give some details. http://iaf.org.il/Templates/Present/Bases.aspx?lang=EN&lobbyID=33&folderID=37

The photos.... care to give me some background info? Who is Johnny Michael Spann? These guys aren't even Israeli soldiers? In fact whats the point in these photos? They're Americans working for the CIA.

But they have guns, don't have uniforms, then by your reckoning they must be terrorists.

But lets look at those figures again 73% of Israeli deaths were combattants, but only 11-37% of Lebanese deaths were combattants. Now that either points to Israeli disregard to civilian deaths or gross overkill.

Sesshoumaru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Armed_strength

The International Institute for Strategic Studies estimates Hezbollah forces to 600-1000 active fighters (with 3,000 - 5,000 available and 10,000 reservists), 10,000 - 15,000 rockets of the Katyusha, Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 type. They also estimate a stockpile of 30 missiles of the Zelzal type.[95] As Haaretz reports Hezbollah is not a small guerrilla organization. It is a trained, skilled, well-organized, highly motivated infantry that is equipped with the cream of the crop of modern weaponry from the arsenals of Syria, Iran, Russia and China, and which is very familiar with the territory on which it is fighting.[96]

A division is usually around 10,000 soldiers. Looks like they have a enough for a division. They must have ordered their uniforms from some cheap supplier in China. Got lost in the post or something like that

I don't really care if they have a Naval base, a munitions factory or an airbase near or in their citys. I seriously doubt any of those are located in residential areas and as I said earlier they don't hide behind civilians or in civilian clothing. Thats the important distinction as far as I am concerned.

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Well I don't agree with what you say. But for arguements sake can you tell me how you think Israel should have dealt with Hezbollah? A non state entity directly on their border with massive support and backing from Syria and Iran. Oh and of course the obligatory useless UN "peacekeeping" force.
Weapons/rockets stockpiled - check
Bunkers in place - check
Indoctrinated fanatical followers - check
Desire & will to destroy Israel - check
I really want to know how Israel should have removed the Hezbollah threat?

For arguments sake how should Israel have destroyed Hezbollah and got their soldiers back?

Israel have purposefully attacked and punished the people of Lebanon. I wish I could say those are the good guys so very good (IDF) and those are the bad bad guys (Hezbollah), but I can't, its not black and white like that. I can't tell the difference between the IDF and Hezbollah anymore, but I think I'd much rather have Hezbollah on my borders than the IDF anyday.

Sesshoumaru

Frederico wrote:

For arguments sake how should Israel have destroyed Hezbollah and got their soldiers back?

Israel have purposefully attacked and punished the people of Lebanon. I wish I could say those are the good guys so very good (IDF) and those are the bad bad guys (Hezbollah), but I can't, its not black and white like that. I can't tell the difference between the IDF and Hezbollah anymore, but I think I'd much rather have Hezbollah on my borders than the IDF anyday.

Honestly I can't understand you at all. I think the only thing we can agree on is that we disagree

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

A huge pile of inconsistant bigoted irresponsible nonsense

I'll put this in bullet points to make it easy for you to understand

1. You say people who criticise Israel don't also criticise Hezbollah.

Complete nonsense. It is accepted by almost everyone that Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation who have done some awful things in the past, and they have targeted Civilians in the past and in the most recent war.

2. You refuse to condenm anything Israel have done. You appear to think that Israel have done absolutely nothing wrong, ever. Even when they do the same things you criticise Hezbollah for doing.

3. You claim that all the civilians killed by Israel are fair game because they 'probably' support hezbollah and so they're not innocent Bystanders. If that is an acceptable position to take, then it is impossible for any attacks against israel to be terrorist attacks because most Israeli citizens supported the attacks on lebanon and against Palestine. And your position is even weaker when we take into account that every Israeli citizen of a certain age is a part of the IDF reserve forces and, by your logic, could be described as military targets.

4. You describe the Lebanese prisoner as a monster because he killed a child while he was carrying out a political assasination, but Israel routinely kill whole families when they launch rocket attacks into Gaza and the west bank to try to kill suspected Hamas leaders. Why is striking a child with a rifle butt a monsterous act, but blowing women and children to small peices is an acceptable part of warfare?

5. Israel have weapons installations based in civilian cities (usually in areas populated by Arab non citizens) but when Hezbollah attacks a city it's a terrorist act, meanwhile you proclaim that it is ok for Israel to target civilian cities because Hezbollah might be storing weapons there or launching attacks from within urban neighbourhoods (in reality, Hezbollah rocket attacks can only be carried out from open areas, it is impossible to fire them close to tall buildings)

6. You claim that because Hezbollah don't wear uniforms (even though they do wear distinctive clothing that makes them recognisable to other lebanese people and to journalists on the ground), that this makes all civilians a potential target, but Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, don't wear uniforms either, and they regularly carry out military attacks within Lebanon and Palestine. Shouldn't this make every jewish person in these countries a legitimate target also? Should Mossad wear uniforms? If they did they would have a life expectancy of about 20 minutes

I could go on, but i doubt it'll make any difference to your warped sense of reality

F.i.n.t.a.N.

Akrasia wrote:

5. Israel have weapons installations based in civilian cities (usually in areas populated by Arab non citizens) but when Hezbollah attacks a city it's a terrorist act, meanwhile you proclaim that it is ok for Israel to target civilian cities because Hezbollah might be storing weapons there or launching attacks from within urban neighbourhoods (in reality, Hezbollah rocket attacks can only be carried out from open areas, it is impossible to fire them close to tall buildings)

I 100% agree with your post, but i have seen hezbollah rockets being launched from in between blocks of flats.

philologos

Mick86 wrote:

I'm not an idealist. And I chose not to care.

if there were cluster bombs dropped all over Tipperary you would...