Am i going to jail?!?!

Undercoverguy

Had a pretty serious run in with the law today.

Okay my cars been in the garage weeks now and today it was finally ready for collection, i only have a prov licence and during the time the car was in the garage this got stolen on me but i went to the garda and got a form stamped and what not.

I picked the car up and on the way home i crawled past a garda going EXACTLY 64kmh (according to the display) in a 60 zone. I obviouslt got pulled and told i was going 70kmh! I argued a bit and made it clear my car had said otherwise but the garda wouldnt budge from his 70 stance!! - CONVICTION ONE

He then went on a mental on for not having a fully licenced holder sitting beside me and no L-Plates up. I told him i did have l-plates but they wernt on my car when i picked it us as they were the magnetic ones that stuck on the outside so anyone could have stolen them. He didnt listen - CONVICTION TWO

I FULLY expect to get 3 points, 2 for speeding and another 1 for not have the licenced holder beside me.

But i have a much bigger problem to worry about.

My licence was due to expire the month, the exact date i have to idea it could have been next week or it could have been 10 days ago i CANT remeber for the life of me. So what happens there if my licence had indeed expired?!? Let us know guys! Cheers!

dubstub

Four words for you:

SOAP ON A ROPE

overdriver

The Gardai doing their bit for fair play and public perception again. Bless 'em.

kippy

You admit to breaking two laws.....
You wont be going to jail and you should probably contact the guard to discuss the potential issue with yout license.
Also-it might be worth taking such small matters as when your license goes out of date, a lot more seriously in future.
Kippy

numorouno

if your license was expired it could invalidate your insurance policy due to the fact that you didnt have a license to drive so you could possibly add another 5 points there. i would make arrangements to speak with the guard at the earliest opportunity and see what happens

Sizzler

Surely you are entitled to challenge the validity of his 70kmh claim??
Its too easy to roll over and get rode in this country, he sounds like a right prick anyway....how dare you question his authority !

Such a difference here between the cops here and the UK & USA....these forces have a public service mentality where as the Irish cops seem to go more for the chip on the shoulder attitude and invariably treat you like shoite.

kippy

The poster said he was doing 64Kmph in a 60 Zone. The guard may have said he was doing 70 but the poster has already admitted he was in the wrong.
He was also driving without an accompanied driver-its possible if the poster hadnt been so adamant that he was "only" doing 64 that the guard would not have looked further into his driving.
Not all guards are going round with a chip on their shoulder. God knows there are enough posts in here moaning about unaccompanied L platted drivers and guards not upholding the law.
Heres a post where the guard did his duty and still gets hammered for it.
Kippy

tbh

Sizzler wrote:

Such a difference here between the cops here and the UK & USA....these forces have a public service mentality where as the Irish cops seem to go more for the chip on the shoulder attitude and invariably treat you like shoite.

are you serious? Every country has good cops and bad cops, IME Irish cops are up there with the best of them.

overdriver

That, sadly, has not been my experience. British cops treat you with respect even if you have done something wrong. Lets face it he's 4 kmh over the limit and this pr1ck talks to him like he's Fred West? Uncalled for.

fletch

And even at 64kph, you could argue that you assumed you were still under the limit given that a lot of speedos are over calibrated by approx 10%.

johnny_adidas

did u request to see a valid certificate for the calibration of the officers speedometer

kippy

Never mind all this nonsense of trying to get out of a speeding ticket.....
Did you not notice that he is also getting done for driving without a fully licensed driver and may be getting done for no license and the resulting no insurance.
I think you should worry about both of these charges more.
Trying to wriggle out of a speeding ticket will not help either of these charges.

overdriver

Most insurance certs state " ...holding, or HAVING HELD a license...". He should check. I have never heard of an out-of-date license voiding your insurance.

stevenmu

Tbh you really need to talk to a soliciter/barrister type, they can tell you exactly what you're next steps should be.

johnny_adidas

kippy wrote:

Never mind all this nonsense of trying to get out of a speeding ticket.....
Did you not notice that he is also getting done for driving without a fully licensed driver and may be getting done for no license and the resulting no insurance.
I think you should worry about both of these charges more.
Trying to wriggle out of a speeding ticket will not help either of these charges.

well if the OP couldnt be arsed to take out his licence to check what date it was due to expire, or again check that info before posting up here, then whats the point in me even commenting on that?

he was also done for no plates and no fully licenced driver, again he cant argue with that. but as for the discrepancies in speed, that is something which will need to be proved, or is it back to the guards word against his.

next question is, did the guard look for your licence and if so, did he spot it was out of date? if not, whats to stop you from getting another licence in the meantime? as said above, you're best off just going to a solicitor and see what they say.

JHMEG

Two questions re the speeding:

Do you have wheels on your car that are bigger than they should be? Like 17" alloys on a car that came with 13" steel wheels? If so your speedo will be wrong.

But... did the Garda actually show you the speed gun, with your speed, 70km/h on the display? I don't know why he didn't issue you with an on the spot fine. I suspect he was only guessing your speed.

Pherekydes

Undercoverguy wrote:

My licence was due to expire the month, the exact date i have to idea it could have been next week or it could have been 10 days ago i CANT remeber for the life of me. So what happens there if my licence had indeed expired?!?

Now you know why you're supposed to have a responsible adult with you at all times (Oops, sorry, I meant 'qualified driver').

Tell us what it's like on the inside, Undercoverguy.

prospect

AFAIK, no this is purely AFAIK,

You can only get points for the single highest points offense at one given time.

e.g.
If you are done for speeding, with no seatbelt in the hardshoulder of a motorway, you only get 2 points, as it is the single highest points offense you committed.

But as I said, AFAIK.

Seth Brundle

johnny_adidas wrote:

did u request to see a valid certificate for the calibration of the officers speedometer

I think he got the garda's back up enough without coming up with this line. The garda doesn't need to show that it has been calibrated. The onus is on the offender to prove that it is not calibrated properly!

JHMEG wrote:

But... did the Garda actually show you the speed gun, with your speed, 70km/h on the display? I don't know why he didn't issue you with an on the spot fine. I suspect he was only guessing your speed.

From what I gather the garda does not necessarily have to show you the gun. The reading may have disappeared by the time the garda gets to show you. I may be wrong though.

prospect wrote:

You can only get points for the single highest points offense at one given time.

I believe that is correct.

Stark

UndercoverGuy wrote:

I FULLY expect to get 3 points, 2 for speeding and another 1 for not have the licenced holder beside me.

There is no penalty point offence for driving unaccompanied at the moment. So from a penalty points pov, you're just looking at the 2 points for speeding. And anyway, like previous posters have said, you only get points for the highest offence.

If you decide to be a prick about it though, you could be summoned to court where you can potentially be convicted of driving without a licence (since driving unaccompanied invalidates your licence). Driving without a licence also means driving without insurance.

Did the garda in question give you a summons or did he just collect your details? If he just collected your details, then it's only the 2 points and the fine that you need to worry about. Are you meant to bring your licence into the garda station? I suggest if you're supposed to bring your licence into the garda station, then you ring them up and tell them the full story of how your licence was stolen and you're waiting on a new licence but couldn't remember the exact date of expiration. I'm pretty sure they'd be reasonable about the situation.

Wishbone Ash

kbannon wrote:

The garda doesn't need to show that it has been calibrated. The onus is on the offender to prove that it is not calibrated properly!

I'm not so sure about that kbannon. My sister in-law is a detective and we were discussing this recently. She informed me that if a motorist requests to see the certificate of calibration for the speed gun, they must provide it - otherwise the offence falls.

Undercoverguy wrote:

My licence was due to expire the month,

It's considered to be a relatively minor offence. Lots of people around the country unwittingly let their licence expire. With a full licence, you are even allowed to let it lapse for ten years before you have to resit the test/tests.

(Michael O'Muricheartaigh did that - now he can't manage to pass the test again).

Wishbone Ash

Stark wrote:

Driving without a licence also means driving without insurance.

Not necessarily - it's at the discretion of the insurance company.

TommyK

Undercoverguy wrote:

...I argued a bit...

I've heard of a few people getting into bother for no L-plates and driving unaccompanied.

In all those cases, they "argued a bit" too.

Me suspects "argued a bit" was along the lines of "Bloody Guards! Go catch some real criminals!"

If you'd taken the fine, he probably would have left it at that.

Tommy.

Mojito

Did the Garda give you a ticket? If not you won't get any points, he was just giving you a scare

For a full list of penalty points click on the link below

http://www.penaltypoints.ie/the_full_list_of_offences.php

Captain Trips

Sizzler wrote:

Surely you are entitled to challenge the validity of his 70kmh claim??
Its too easy to roll over and get rode in this country, he sounds like a right prick anyway....how dare you question his authority !

Yes! How dare a learner driver who -
(a) was caught speeding
(b) did not have L plates displated and
(c) was driving unaccompanied

....question the "authority" of a garda.

As far as I can see, the Garda did a good job. It's about time they started cracking down on speeding learners and about time learners started to learn the rules of the road.

Now warnings, no bribes, no buddy-buddy.....you broke three laws and deserve any punishment.

Captain Trips

overdriver wrote:

Most insurance certs state " ...holding, or HAVING HELD a license...". He should check. I have never heard of an out-of-date license voiding your insurance.

If your license is out of date you are not legally allowed to drive in the eyes of the law. Generally speaking, your license needs to be valid to be....valid, otherwise you are driving illegally.

Our man in Havana

kbannon wrote:

I think he got the garda's back up enough without coming up with this line. The garda doesn't need to show that it has been calibrated. The onus is on the offender to prove that it is not calibrated properly!

You cannot in all honesty do that without seeing the cert, so the accused can never win.

damo

You have absolutely no chance of going to jail (unless you have a suspended sentence or something). Worst case scenrio is a 6 - 12 month driving ban and a fine.


P.S

Get a good lawer, trust me!

Undercoverguy

Okay guys, Just a few replies and updates.

To all the guys who came on and said i was speeding. Correct.
By 4kmh, the only reason was due to the MASSIVE gap of traffic infront of my and the even bigger tailback behind me. - BRING ON THE POINTS

To all the guys who gave out about not having L-Plates. Not Totally Guilty.
Durning the trip to the garage my magnetic plates dissappeared, it was only an hour or so ago i realised these were in my boot of my car. This is where the garage must have placed them while the car was being test driven overnight and what not. When i picked up the car i was under the assumption they were still on the car, this is due to my own careless-ness for not checking.

To all the guys about not having a fully licenced driver beside me.
I've done 17 Driving Lessons, 2 Pretest Courses and have been driving a year now. I'm reckon i'm a little bit passed having mammy babysit me. Altho the law is the law and so i expect to get this point for this offence. However it seems to depend on the mood the garda is in. I got stoped 8 months ago by a garda at a Checkpoint and when asked where my fully licenced driver was i replied "Dont have one" to which he replied "Okay, Its a stupid law away" and then moved onto something else.

Also its odd that in less than 4 days from now i'll be allowed drive without fully licence person in the car yet today i wasnt!

FINALLY, I visited my local tax office. My licence was actually indate for another 7 Days (Due to end on 22/09/06) I also reapplied for my second prov licence which will be out to me by Tuesday. So come tuesday morning i'll drop down to the local garda station and present Licence, Insurance, Log Book and Tax than from that moment on all i have to worry about is.

- The Speeding Points (2)
- No Fully Licenced Drive (1)
- The Fine

So all in all its not as bad as i thought, Hopefully this day next month i'll be waving my FULL licence if i pass and most of this will never happen again.....

Unless of course i got caught going 52kmh in a 50kmh zone :eek: :eek:

DEAD GOD!!! What a mental driver that would make me! :rolleyes:

Wishbone Ash

Undercoverguy wrote:

To all the guys who gave out about not having L-Plates. Not Totally Guilty.
Durning the trip to the garage my magnetic plates dissappeared, it was only an hour or so ago i realised these were in my boot of my car

The offence relates to non-display of L plates. The fact that they were in your boot is irrevelant. You would still be 'guilty' of the offence.

\m/_(>_<)_\m/

tbh wrote:

Irish cops are up there with the best of them.

i have to agree, when talking about bad cops from around the world,
our boys are up with the best of them.

Big Nelly

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ wrote:

i have to agree, when talking about bad cops from around the world,
our boys are up with the best of them.

This is gas, a cop does his job, stops a speeding driver, doesn't matter if only a few Kmph over the speed limit does nobody see the ad about the distance you need to stop in case a kid runs out in front of you? that extra 4kph could mean life or death, if it is a 60kmph zone then its built up so yes the cop is in his perfect right to stop you. Also if the OP could see he was doing 64 why didnt he slow down if he knew it was a 60Kph? Did you drive along sitting watching the speedo just to make sure you where just over the limit in case a garda was around? dont think so

Then no L plates, another offence and it doesnt matter if they where in the boot etc, it is the law that a L driver has to have plates on the car. So don't drive the car if you don't have the plates. You are supposed to check your car before you drive to check these things and if you just took from a garage I am pretty sure you had a look around the car to make sure everything was ok with the car and they had fixed any damage etc that needed to be. So you would have spotted you had no L plates, so your in a garage, pay the 2-3 euro and buy new ones. The excuse doesn't wash with me. If you can't spot you have no L plates stuck to your car then what hope do we have you can spot any danger on the road? can you use your mirrors?

And of course no full license driver, glad to see the Garda coming down on this, I hope this will continue to happen and stop the attitude of L drivers who just hop into cars without a care for anyone else on the road and think it is ok to drive around with no full license driver. Well done Garda!!

Also if you cant bother to read yoru license or cant see no L plates I would go and check your eyes checked.

To all the guys about not having a fully licenced driver beside me.
I've done 17 Driving Lessons, 2 Pretest Courses and have been driving a year now. I'm reckon i'm a little bit passed having mammy babysit me. Altho the law is the law and so i expect to get this point for this offence. However it seems to depend on the mood the garda is in. I got stoped 8 months ago by a garda at a Checkpoint and when asked where my fully licenced driver was i replied "Dont have one" to which he replied "Okay, Its a stupid law away" and then moved onto something else.

To be honest that sounds like the biggest pile of .... I have ever heard in my life, as if a Garda is going to turn around and say straight out to a member of the public a law is stupid, no chance. They might discuss laws among themselves but never to the public. I have friends in the Garda and they wont even say to me which laws they think is stupid so the chance they said that to you are none.

Also if you are such a great driver after all your lessons did they not teach you the laws of the road? the speed limits? how to use your mirrors? how to check your vehicle before you drive etc? seems like they didnt

To be honest I hope they throw the book at you and start doing it to alot more drivers to quit all these deaths on the road and the massive insurance I have to pay because of it.

Oh yeha quit with the Garda bashing, a Garda does his job you have a go at him and then we have threads everyday about Garda not stopping cars on road, can they win with some people? according to some of you they are pri*ks if they stop you and then useless if they are not on the very spot you see some stupid driving? grow up people. The Garda are out there doing a job and are doing there best. Getting people off the road like this who have a total lack of respect for the roads and its rules/law is there job and they have done it here and all alot of you can do is have a go, then earlier this week was a thread on here from someone about bad driving and why the Garda where not there to help, I suppose if the driver of the car he was talking about came on here with his sob story we would get the same. All garda are pri*ks.

Cyrus

Big Nelly wrote:

This is gas, a cop does his job, stops a speeding driver, doesn't matter if only a few Kmph over the speed limit does nobody see the ad about the distance you need to stop in case a kid runs out in front of you? that extra 4kph could mean life or death, if it is a 60kmph zone then its built up so yes the cop is in his perfect right to stop you. Also if the OP could see he was doing 64 why didnt he slow down if he knew it was a 60Kph? Did you drive along sitting watching the speedo just to make sure you where just over the limit in case a garda was around? dont think so

It does matter, if the driver honestly was just over by 4km/h then theres a good chance he wasnt over at all. Speedos generally overestimate speed, youd notice if you used a gps. Guards are generally asses about speeding offences, wont show you a read out of the speed, wont show a cert of calibration (i asked for both the time i got stopped for doing 58 in a 50 and was told he didnt need to give me either so what can ya do?)

there needs to be more transparency, i know the guards have a tough job but shooting fish in barrel in a 50 zone and not giving any proof of the offence is taking the piss.

Sizzler

tbh wrote:

are you serious? Every country has good cops and bad cops, IME Irish cops are up there with the best of them.

True.

But in the context of USA & UK which I was comparing them to...there is no comparison. The "service" element is nowhere near the top of the cops work ethic here in Ireland 9 times out of ten a copper will talk down to you like a piece of shoite when you have done something wrong !

layke

kippy wrote:

The poster said he was doing 64Kmph in a 60 Zone. The guard may have said he was doing 70 but the poster has already admitted he was in the wrong.

4km is hardly wrong... it's like 2 mph... nothing.

kippy wrote:

He was also driving without an accompanied driver-its possible if the poster hadnt been so adamant that he was "only" doing 64 that the guard would not have looked further into his driving.

Don't worry about this if it went to court I doubt you'd be done.

Chances are you may not get a summonce to court at all, guards like to give out and then forget they ever saw you 5 minutes later. Then again, you could be unlucky.

WizZard

Undercoverguy wrote:

Okay guys, Just a few replies and updates.

To all the guys who came on and said i was speeding. Correct.
By 4kmh, the only reason was due to the MASSIVE gap of traffic infront of my and the even bigger tailback behind me.

You got caught so you are now using the old and tired excuse "It wasn't my fault I swear, there were other people around. They made me drive faster"
You are supposed to be learning to be a driver, part of being a good driver is being aware, and in control i.e. you don't let others control your speed.

Undercoverguy wrote:

To all the guys who gave out about not having L-Plates. Not Totally Guilty.
Durning the trip to the garage my magnetic plates dissappeared, it was only an hour or so ago i realised these were in my boot of my car. This is where the garage must have placed them while the car was being test driven overnight and what not. When i picked up the car i was under the assumption they were still on the car, this is due to my own careless-ness for not checking.

So if you drove off one night with no brake lights it wouldn't matter either, nor would you be guilty, right? Because you didn't check... No biggie? You are LEARNING to drive, the least you could do at this stage is check your car, especially check for your L plates. What if you didn't check if your passengers wasn't wearing a seatbelt, if you crashed and they died. Not your fault right?

Undercoverguy wrote:

To all the guys about not having a fully licenced driver beside me.
I've done 17 Driving Lessons, 2 Pretest Courses and have been driving a year now. I'm reckon i'm a little bit passed having mammy babysit me.

It's not for your to decide, and it's due to this arrogance and overconfidence that road deaths are what they are today.

Undercoverguy wrote:

I got stoped 8 months ago by a garda at a Checkpoint and when asked where my fully licenced driver was i replied "Dont have one" to which he replied "Okay, Its a stupid law away" and then moved onto something else.

Of course he did :rolleyes::rolleyes:

chrislad

Don't mean to be anal, but even if you were going 51kmph, you were still breaking the law. It's not a guideline. It's a limit. Still at it, not over it. You've already said the 4kmph doesn't make a huge difference, so what chance fate, and do it. Whether the guard was unfair or not is irrelevant. Whether the law is unfair or not is irrelevant. Fact is, at the time you knew the law, he knew the law, and it was his job to uphold it. He was right. I completely agree that driving unaccompanied is one of the dumbest laws ever. Hell, I do it myself. I've taken 15 lessons, and done countless hours with an accompanied drive, yet I still have to wait 44 weeks (estimated time) for my test. You cannot expect to become a good driver by hounding people to take you for 2 hours driving every day, nor pay the 35quid an hour every day for driving lessons.

Best of luck with things though.

Stark

layke wrote:

4km is hardly wrong... it's like 2 mph... nothing.

Aye. Especially if you consider that the speed limit went from 40mph (about 65kph) to 60kph(about 37.5mph). It's not like the roads became magically more dangerous after the switchover.

atlantean

Undercoverguy wrote:

He then went on a mental on for not having a fully licenced holder sitting beside me and no L-Plates up.

So you should not have been driving the car in the first place!

The guy nextdoor to me was hit by a car driven by someone who should have had a fully licenced driver with them but didnt. Insurance would not pay up as he was not insured to be out on his own :mad:

There are reasons why you should have a fully licenced driver next to you!

Stark

atlantean wrote:

The guy nextdoor to me was hit by a car driven by someone who should have had a fully licenced driver with them but didnt. Insurance would not pay up as he was not insured to be out on his own :mad:

Wow, I thought they were still under obligation to stay pay out. The "uninsured" bit relates to them being allowed to sue the policy holder to recoup costs after the payout.

Also, most insurance companies do still insure you even if you're driving on your own.

layke

Please READ the topic the OP was doing 4kmh over the limit not 40. The Guard is unfairly doing him for a speed he didn't do.
In future Undercoverguy ask straight away to see the speed camera, if the guard cannot produce one stick to the 64kmh as they cannot prove otherwise unless he was driving up your arse for a while.

Very mportant if your ever asked what speed your doing do not incrminate yourself.

Noelie

I'm surprised no one else has said this, he claims to be driving at 64Kph, but what if his speedo is -10%, that would put him driving at 70kph like the cop said!!

atlantean

Stark wrote:

Wow, I thought they were still under obligation to stay pay out. The "uninsured" bit relates to them being allowed to sue the policy holder to recoup costs after the payout.

Also, most insurance companies do still insure you even if you're driving on your own.

Well I don't know all the details but I do know the guy ended up shelling out himself in the end - I helped him get some bits from a breakers!

I think the other driver was with Quinn direct but I am not sure.

Cyrus

Noelie wrote:

I'm surprised no one else has said this, he claims to be driving at 64Kph, but what if his speedo is -10%, that would put him driving at 70kph like the cop said!!

speedos overestimate not under

Noelie

Cyrus wrote:

speedos underestimate not over

My point exactly!

Cyrus

sorry mispost corrected

Signpost

Did he show you the speed gun with the speed on it? Unless they actually show you your speed dont stand up. Know this for a fact because a guard tried to tell one of my friends he was doing 95km in an 80 zone but when he wouldnt show him the camera to prove it, it was thrown out in court in about 20 seconds flat. Probably screwed on the no full driver thou!

eamon234

You can't be done for driving on a provisional - there was a case in Cork recently where the Judge said he couldn't legally convict a boy racer of the same offence - this is now a legal precedent until the law is changed so it's probably just the speeding offence you'll have to face.

Savman

chrislad wrote:

Whether the guard was unfair or not is irrelevant. Whether the law is unfair or not is irrelevant

Wrong wrong wrong :mad:.
The whole system of law and order DEPENDS on fairness and equality, so those in authority being "unfair" is very bloody relevant.

Chasing an L driver for going 4km over the limit is UNFAIR, when there are thousands of drivers committing much more serious offences that are overlooked out of convenience/garda laziness/whatever.

Changing lanes without indicating is just as serious as floating over the limit, yet I see lunatics doing this every day nearly causing major accidents. Do we call for all such drivers to be charged with poor lane discipline? Nope. Probably cos all the high and mightys on this board are those exact drivers who feel they're above the lowly tradition of indicating.

To the OP, just produce your details at your station, I would be optimistic you may not hear about this again. Happens us all.

It BeeMee

Savman wrote:

Wrong wrong wrong :mad:.
The whole system of law and order DEPENDS on fairness and equality, so those in authority being "unfair" is very bloody relevant.

Chasing an L driver for going 4km over the limit is UNFAIR, when there are thousands of drivers committing much more serious offences that are overlooked out of convenience/garda laziness/whatever.

Ah, but the guard couldn't have known he was dealing with an L Driver as there were no plates up.
So on the face of it, we have a guard who simply stopped a driver for speeding, regardless of the margin. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

....unless of course you consider that most of us would be very p!ssed off for being stopped for exceeding the limit by that amount. And that's according to the speedo, which should be reading higher anyway.

Which leads me to conclude:
Either the OPs speedo is waaaaay off the mark (up to 20% SLOW), or there was something else that caught the guard's attention ?

Stark

eamon234 wrote:

You can't be done for driving on a provisional - there was a case in Cork recently where the Judge said he couldn't legally convict a boy racer of the same offence - this is now a legal precedent until the law is changed so it's probably just the speeding offence you'll have to face.

You've been reading the Mirror version of the story. There isn't a specific law for "driving unaccompanied" but by doing so, you're invalidating the T&Cs on your licence and so you can be convicted of driving without a licence, for which there is a law.

It BeeMee wrote:

Either the OPs speedo is waaaaay off the mark (up to 20% SLOW), or there was something else that caught the guard's attention ?

The baseball cap