Study for station reopening between Enfield and Mullingar

Navan Junction

Meath and Westmeath County Councils are funding a new study aimed at reopening either the Hill of Down (or more likely) Killucan station.

The study will then be presented to Iarnród Éireann in November.

TBH, I reckon it's probably more of a pre-election gimmick then anything else.

Transport21 Fan

Mindless tokenism and political bufoonery. These stations if reopened would be the Attymon Jct and Woodlawn of Leinster with little or no base for passengers unless they came up with a major and I mean MAJOR LUTS plan for Killucan village.

Better to put the money into a few passing loops and new signals between Enfield and Mullingar and get some real commuter services up and running which people will actually use. Getting rid of that level crossing at Killucan would be a better move than reopening a rural station with no real catchment population.

When the Maynooth line is electricfied and the Interconnector is built they should really look at terminating peak hour services west of Longford at Maynooth and let people change there rather than wrecking the frequency on the Maynooth line.

Turning Mayooth station carpark into a regional connecting bus hub for West Dublin and East Kildare would be worth looking at as well.

oh sorry...I almost forgot this is CIE we are dealing with here...

STRIKE!!!!!

Victor

Behave.

westtip

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Better to put the money into a few passing loops and new signals between Enfield and Mullingar and get some real commuter services up and running which people will actually use.
When the Maynooth line is electricfied and the Interconnector is built they should really look at terminating peak hour services west of Longford at Maynooth and let people change there rather than wrecking the frequency on the Maynooth line.

Turning Mayooth station carpark into a regional connecting bus hub for West Dublin and East Kildare would be worth looking at as well.

The passing loops would improve things to provide a real commuting service from as far out as Longford/Mullingar (and Athlone if the Mulingar Athlone line were opened), but don't ee why the Longford/Mullingar commuters should not receive a service (of at least one train) at peak times in the mornings into Connolly - the 0700 from Longford should be non stop from Enfield or Maynooth with the stopping service following it.

Integrating a bus station with Maynooth station seems like a good idea but the cramped nature of the car park there - crammed between the line and the canal makes it very difficult - and in any event where would all the park and riders park?

Navan Junction wrote:

Meath and Westmeath County Councils are funding a new study aimed at reopening either the Hill of Down (or more likely) Killucan station.

The study will then be presented to Iarnród Éireann in November.

TBH, I reckon it's probably more of a pre-election gimmick then anything else.

does sound a bit opportune for the election - the old just look at what we are going to do/thinking about routine...but a good park n ride facility from Meath/Westmeath would be handy especially as Maynooth is such a mare to get in and out of. Of course it woudl need to be at least double tracked out to the new station to make it worthwhile, I don't think this is planned for sometime - or is it? Personally, I think Enfield should be developed as a super size park and ride facility for the Midlands/West.

GerardKeating

Navan Junction wrote:

Meath and Westmeath County Councils are funding a new study aimed at reopening either the Hill of Down (or more likely) Killucan station.

The study will then be presented to Iarnród Éireann in November.

TBH, I reckon it's probably more of a pre-election gimmick then anything else.

I think they were promising a station before the last election as well.

Transport21 Fan

I promise to behave myself Victor.

However if any Gareth Gates fans show up here I reserve the right to hate them publically and without reserve.

Navan Junction

GerardKeating wrote:

I think they were promising a station before the last election as well.

Closest population is Rochford Bridge for Killucan, and Longwood for Hill of Down..

I can't see it happening tbh, not that the people that are there wouldn't like it..

However, I completely sympathise with those that will be conned and disappointed when it's announced..

Zebra3

Transport21 Fan wrote:

When the Maynooth line is electricfied and the Interconnector is built they should really look at terminating peak hour services west of Longford at Maynooth and let people change there rather than wrecking the frequency on the Maynooth line.

Turning Mayooth station carpark into a regional connecting bus hub for West Dublin and East Kildare would be worth looking at as well.

Check out the traffic in Maynooth before you suggest that one again in public!!!

dowlingm

First off, if the councils want a station they should pay for the full cost like a developer would.

Second, the payment should also include an amount to help pay for improvements to the section which reduce journey times between Mullingar and Enfield by the same amount (say 2-3 minutes) that halting would cost. The station should include a passing loop which would also help with capacity issues if future Moate services were contemplated and should be located roughly equidistant from the other two stations rather than wherever a station used to be 150 years ago when cattle was loaded.

Third, the station should be accessible from Kinnegad primarily since that is the town growing the most (over 60% in the census period) and has a junction with the N6 as well as the N/M4. The problem with Woodlawn/Attymon is that there is no nearby town to give it any catchment.

The time between Mullingar-(Kinnegad North as Ryanair would call it)-Enfield would be about 15+15 (existing trains take 25-28min) which is still more than the 7-9 between Maynooth-Kilcock-Enfield.

GerardKeating

Navan Junction wrote:

Closest population is Rochford Bridge for Killucan, and Longwood for Hill of Down..

Eh, Kinnegad is fairly close to the former station at Killucan and they are building houses in the area at a fierce rate.

Transport21 Fan

Zebra3 wrote:

Check out the traffic in Maynooth before you suggest that one again in public!!!

You are correct of course. For a second I forgot what country I was living in and fostered under the illusion that more public transport would = less car congestion.

Still, I think that Maynooth would make a super bus interchange at some stage. The location is a fairly tight alright and such an idea should of been considered while the station was being developed. But alas...

I cannot see the logic is reopening either Killucan or Hill O' the Downs. There is mostly off-housing and middle of nowhere micro-estate in that part of Westmeath.

dowlingm wrote:

Second, the payment should also include an amount to help pay for improvements to the section which reduce journey times between Mullingar and Enfield by the same amount (say 2-3 minutes) that halting would cost. The station should include a passing loop which would also help with capacity issues if future Moate services were contemplated and should be located roughly equidistant from the other two stations rather than wherever a station used to be 150 years ago when cattle was loaded.

Bingo.

dowlingm wrote:

Third, the station should be accessible from Kinnegad primarily since that is the town growing the most (over 60% in the census period) and has a junction with the N6 as well as the N/M4.

Bingo again.

Unfortunately you are not some FF/FG/Lab/Sinn Fein/PD/Independent/Green local gob****e running for election and therefore you can not only see, but express the reality of the bigger picture.

There should be laws to prevent Irish polticians for even thinking about public transport, let alone having a say in it.

westtip

Transport21 Fan wrote:

There should be laws to prevent Irish polticians for even thinking about public transport, let alone having a say in it.

The unfortunate thing about democracy is that any gobsh*te can stand for election and provided they go to enough funerals, played football for the county or their father was a general all round good geyser then there seems there is a good chance they will get elected. Most of them (particularly at local government level) are walking disaster areas when it comes to commenting on planning and development. Their idea of planning tends to be build a motorway from my village to Dublin ASAP, and development is let any member of my family or network of boyo's to build as many thrown up houses in straight rows in a field on the edge of town again ASAP. Long term plans for life tend to be get a place in Spain and get out of this sh1thole we are creating as soon as there is any sign of trouble ahead

Slice

dowlingm: First off, if the councils want a station they should pay for the full cost like a developer would.

That argument doesn't make any sense - whatever happened to Irish Rail's public service commitment? Granted in this case there isn't much of a public to service...

Transport21 Fan

What dowlingm said makes perfect sense and is more or less official IE policy. Think about it for a minute, it prevents what happened with the Greystones DART extention from happening again, and also ensures that the only stations opened from now on are going to be used by commuters in decent numbers.

Why should IE be forced to reopen every closed rural cattle loading bank on the Irish railway network as a "commuter station" just because it was once there in the olden days? The likes of the WRC is a momument to this retrograde thinking.

Our national rail network is not somekind of historic reconstruction project. Johnston Railway Gazetter is a book about the past, sometimes in this country some people act like they seem to think it is a blue print for the future or rail in Ireland.

The only railway stations that should be opened from now on are ones paid for by developers or ones which fit into carefully planned LUTS proposals.

Apart from what happened at Spencer Dock, I fully support IE selling off railfreight yards to build apartments on them with commuter stations downstairs. It's a win-win situation for rail - (if done correctly of course). :eek: - This arrangement between developer and IE has the potential to be a fantastic driver of rail development in Ireland. Sadly at Spencer Dock the old CIE lack of vision/ambition robbed the site of its full potential but at other sites around the country this PPP station funding is working.

Reopening the Hill O'Down, Killucan, most of the Western Rail Corridor, Kells and Trim is just silly railway historical re-enactment at its worst and would only serve to damage the image of rail ivestment in Ireland by robbing the taxpayers for a trip down memory lane. There is no public service in this at all.

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Reopening the Hill O'Down, Killucan, most of the Western Rail Corridor, Kells and Trim is just silly railway historical re-enactment at its worst and would only serve to damage the image of rail ivestment in Ireland by robbing the taxpayers for a trip down memory lane. There is no public service in this at all.

Kells is out the window for good - the M3 is cutting it in two. Trim has never been seriously suggested. I don't think looking for solutions to the daily grind of gridlock can be described as an interest in historical reannactment, and it is entirely understandable that those stuck in traffic cast about for alternatives.

The problem does not lie with people desiring reopenings - the problem lies with them being conned by politicians into believing something is achievable when it is not.

Take the Kingscourt example and what happened in Navan at the Transport 21 meeting where Iarnród Éireann's Chairman said that they were looking at the Navan-Kingscourt line, but that Navan Drogheda wasn't feasable. Realistically, there is a fair chance that even Navan Clonsilla might not do well in a cost benefit analyses, never mind anywhere else with much lower populations.

Reopening railways (& stations) is political. Politicians give the impression that reopenings are possible all over the country. People respond well to that, and politicians feed off it.

Whatever about the low population around Killucan, you can't knock the people for wanting the station reopened.

At the end of the day politicians shouldn't be involved in infrastructure provision to the extent they are. Whilst they continue to be, don't expect anything different.

Slice

So is that to say all the stations on the route of the interconnector will be funded by Dublin City Council? Or Spencer Dock even?

westtip

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Why should IE be forced to reopen every closed rural cattle loading bank on the Irish railway network as a "commuter station" just because it was once there in the olden days? The likes of the WRC is a momument to this retrograde thinking.

Reopening the Hill O'Down, Killucan, most of the Western Rail Corridor, Kells and Trim is just silly railway historical re-enactment at its worst and would only serve to damage the image of rail ivestment in Ireland by robbing the taxpayers for a trip down memory lane. There is no public service in this at all.

I agree with some but not all of your sentiments T21, I live in county sligo and cannot support the opening of the northern section of WRC (my views on this one remain use it as a public utility - ie footpath which will bring visitors to the NW), but what about for example the Harcourt Street Line - with Luas running along its old route, surely an example of good use of the old network. The thinking is back to front - Politicians say there is an old railway lets reopen it, because they think it it a vote winner. Instead it should be there is a transport need, lets see what resources (and in the case of old rail routes its only land which is the resource) do we have to fulfil that need. Sometimes the old railway infrastructure is in the right place at the right time and re-opening makes economic sense - because there is no cost of land involved. Discounting the Luas, we haven't actually built a new rail line in this country for well over a century. In fact this state has never built a new railway line (I don't think) only maintained or recently improved or closed down what the previous landlords left us with.

Build a new road - not a problem - but build a new railway line? which takes up much less space and moves people and goods more efficiently and they look at you as if you have landed from another planet. I think it is a great pity we have missed the opportunity in this great period of building infrastructure not to combine the roads building programme with a rail building programme. For example why couldn't the N3 to Navan not have had a light railway line running up its central reservation - the Rail line from downtown Chicago to O'hare runs up the middle of such a highway. Why couldn't the new M4 to Galway have been built with enough space between carriageways in perhaps future years to have put in a super fast express train line to the Midlands and West - Why wasn't the M50 built wide enough to have an outer orbital train service running up the central reservation.

By the way The Chicago Transit Authority's (CTA) Blue Line provides 24-hour access between downtown Chicago and O'Hare International Airport. Trains run approximately every 8 minutes from 5 a.m. to 11 p.m. Monday through Friday, and approximately every ten minutes from 5 a.m. to 11 p.m. on weekends. Currently, a one-way fare for the 45-minute ride is $2.00. Please go to the Chicago Transit Authority website for further details. http://www.ohare.com/ohare/ground_transport/ground_cta.shtm

They just haven't got this vision thing these politicians

Navan Junction

westtip wrote:

For example why couldn't the N3 to Navan not have had a light railway line running up its central reservation.

It wouldn't have needed to be light, heavy would be just as easy.

They had no intention of reopening the line, and they still don't.

The M3 is the most heavily tolled road in the country. In fact it is the only road tolled twice in a single county.

To have built the rail line down the middle of the M3 would have meant it would be delivered. And the tolling company would not have wanted that

Victor

Slice wrote:

So is that to say all the stations on the route of the interconnector will be funded by Dublin City Council? Or Spencer Dock even?

Its likely that new development within a certain distance will have to contribute.

dowlingm

Slice

the difference is that IE need the Dublin City Centre stations to make the reconfiguration of DART work. Each of those stations will have passenger throughputs in weeks what this proposed station will do in years. IE do not need the Kinnegad station as such. The public service remit is true, but IE already subsidises underperforming lines. You can't get 10Euro public service out of 1Euro subsidy. Which line or stations would you close so IE could fund opening Kinnegad? What would those lines/stations local authorities say to that?

My objection is to local authorities who want things handed to them and for someone else to pay. That road leads to, well, "Burma".

westtip

Navan Junction wrote:

It wouldn't have needed to be light, heavy would be just as easy.

They had no intention of reopening the line, and they still don't.

The M3 is the most heavily tolled road in the country. In fact it is the only road tolled twice in a single county.

To have built the rail line down the middle of the M3 would have meant it would be delivered. And the tolling company would not have wanted that

Agree with you on the type of rail line - a piped dream they (the flabby white boys) just don't think this. It is a great pity when the whole transport policy is driven by PD economic policy and PPP mania.

You are right they have no intention of opening the Navan line because the toll company influence not to open it is to great. I just hope when this road opens there is a true effort to boycott it out of business. I have stopped using the M4 toll section - it only saves about ten minutes and these are soon lost in the congestion on the N4 Lucan and M50 - in other words it makes jack sh1t difference to total Dublin bound journey times you just get to the logjam ten minutes earlier.

Transport21 Fan

Slice, the Interconnector and the stations along its course were supposed to be delivered 30 years ago, and this project has been a core transport public plan for Dublin in one way or another ever since then.

If it was needed back in 1975, then it's long overdue in 2006. If the public pay for it, then its excellent value for money because the city of Dublin and Leinster badly needs it. It's not a tokeist rail transport idea, it's a vital requirement.

I really do not understand this phobia surrounding investment in rail in the Greater Dublin Region. Can anybody explain to me why Dublin is the only capital city in the world which has to constantly apologise to the rural regions for Dublin's need for basic transport requirements?

The Greater Dublin Region needs all the rail investment it can get, then Cork city and suburbs, then Limerick city and suburbs, then Galway city and suburbs. The region with the greatest need gets the loins share of rail investment. Why is this such a impossible concept for so many in this country to come to terms with?

Why this fetish for reopening rural railway stations with five grannies on free travel passes waiting for a train, when our nation's capital and its surrounding counties are gridlock into oblivion. I'll never understand this mentality.

Navan Junction

dowlingm wrote:

My objection is to local authorities who want things handed to them and for someone else to pay.

I think the system is like that purposely, perfect to fudge issues..

Local Authorites get to propose and back plans knowing that they will never have to deliver..

Give you an example. MCC and FCC are colaborating on a new exit on the N3 at Clonee. MCC are paying for it, even though it is in FCC's territory.

Point is they need it, and just do it without fanfare.

With the Killucan study, they get to pass the buck whilst appearing to do something, and making a big deal out of it..

IÉ will have no interest in it

impr0v

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I cannot see the logic is reopening either Killucan or Hill O' the Downs. There is mostly off-housing and middle of nowhere micro-estate in that part of Westmeath.

Hill of Down is in Meath. The pressure being applied locally for Killucan Station to reopen is coming primarily from Kinnegad based commuters. The station is not quite equi-distant from the two population centres but is easily accessible from Kinnegad, the most rapidly growing town/village in Westmeath and possibly the midlands, with nearly 66% population growth between 2002 and 2006. Killucan itself has experienced significant housing development and has grown over 20% in the same period, admittedly from a low base.

Saruman

Navan Junction wrote:

Closest population is Rochford Bridge for Killucan, and Longwood for Hill of Down..

I can't see it happening tbh, not that the people that are there wouldn't like it..

However, I completely sympathise with those that will be conned and disappointed when it's announced..

You do do not seem to know your Geography there
Firstly its Rochfortbridge (one word with a T) despite what some signs etc say.
Secondly (and i live there so i know!!) its no where near Killucan. We are on the N6 about 12 km from Mullingar (which is closer to Killucan).

I would say Kinnegad or Clonard are the closest big ish towns...

Anyway Mullingar-Longford needs a much better service than it current gets... there is no train after 7pm or so... its a disgrace.

Navan Junction

Saruman wrote:

You do do not seem to know your Geography there

I know - I was thinking from the last time I was down there, but when I looked at the map afterwards i saw i was fair bit off..:rolleyes:

Victor

Saruman wrote:

I would say Kinnegad or Clonard are the closest big ish towns...

Surely you mean "biggish villages".

Slice

Dowlingm: Slice

the difference is that IE need the Dublin City Centre stations to make the reconfiguration of DART work.

Transport21 Fan: Slice, the Interconnector and the stations along its course were supposed to be delivered 30 years ago, and this project has been a core transport public plan for Dublin in one way or another ever since then.

If it was needed back in 1975, then it's long overdue in 2006. If the public pay for it, then its excellent value for money because the city of Dublin and Leinster badly needs it

I don't have any kind of argument to make on this topic. I was just trying to point out that if there are people in the area who want either stations opened then they have every right to lobby IE for them to be re-opened. I just think that to say it's okay for IE to fund Spencer Dock and not Kilcullen is an unnecessary case of double standards. I think there's no question as to which one will actually become a reality and which one won't. I simply mean it's of no negative consequence to anyone anything that comes out of this study... is it?

Victor

Slice wrote:

I don't have any kind of argument to make on this topic. I was just trying to point out that if there are people in the area who want either stations opened then they have every right to lobby IE for them to be re-opened. I just think that to say it's okay for IE to fund Spencer Dock and not Kilcullen is an unnecessary case of double standards. I think there's no question as to which one will actually become a reality and which one won't. I simply mean it's of no negative consequence to anyone anything that comes out of this study... is it?

How many people will be served by Spencer Dock?
How many people will be served by Killucan (not Kilcullen as you stated)?

Its not a case of double standards. Its a case of a single standard, ie is the return from this station enough to justify the cost of construction, operation and the extra 3 minutes it adds to other journeys?

Slice

Victor, do you live in Dublin?

Victor

Slice wrote:

Victor, do you live in Dublin?

Victor
Blog-less Monster
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Dublin

No.

Slice

So do I and yes I think it'd be splendid if they built Spencer Dock, even if Dublin was a marsh the size of LA and no one else lived here...

As for Kil-lucky or whatever, I couldn't care less