Proof God exists

Dades

Originally Posted by The Atheist
Why do you assume the creator is your god and not somebody elses?

CatStevens wrote:

I believe that the creator my God is the creator and god of everything. maybe I lost you.

Um, I think I lost you.

I'm asking why you believe this. The 'proofs' you've put forward relate to an anonymous creator. I'm trying to establish the link between your proofs and your god specifically - because I can't see one. Many gods claims to be the creator - why is yours the one responsible?

CatStevens wrote:

btw guys and sisters I wish you didn't mess my post No 25

?

bubonicus wrote:

You are proof that god(Allah) exists.

More like the reason god exists. Gods wouldn't "exist" without man.

bubonicus

The Atheist wrote:

More like the reason god exists. Gods wouldn't "exist" without man.

Correct, but if man belives in something another man can not make them belive something else. So if somebody belives there is a god, Then there is a god. You might not belive that. But that's your business.

MonkeyWrench

Hi Cat Stevens,

A bit off topic here but what are your opinions on what happened on Sept 11 in New York 5 years ago and how do you feel about the linkage to Islam?
Personally I think there are a minority group in every religon that takes this type of fundamentalism to its extreme and Islam should not be blamed as a whole. I would like to know your views though with your large knowledgebase of Islam and Allah.

Tar.Aldarion

CatStevens wrote:

A) Human were created from nothing or by nothing. This proposal violates basic reason. Something cannot come from nothing. Nothing cannot create something.
Humans created themselves. This is also an illogical and contradictory proposition. To create one's self, one must already exist. But to be created one must first not exist.

How pray tell did god come about?
Surely something coming from nothing is illogical, well you claim it is,(although it actually happens in science and your point is completely void because of that fact alone), and surely something existing forever is illogical?
If it is not illogical then that means humans did not have to come from nothing(because god did not have to), voiding your point either way.
It doesn't have a leg to stand on in the first place.


As The Atheist said, your points come down to,
"I don't understand it, so how could that possibly happen?"

You also seem to miss the concept of probablility...

CatStevens

The Atheist

The Atheist wrote:

The 'proofs' you've put forward relate to an anonymous creator..

I was discussing not giving direct proofs such discussings leads you to whether believe or not

The Atheist wrote:

I can't see one. Many gods claims to be the creator - why is yours the one responsible?

I already answered such a question, well, firstly you have to believe in his existence then you can know who is the true from the false God, let's take Christianty as an example Christians say Jesus is God yet Jesus himself said that he is not God:Jesus said: "And this is eternal life, that they may know The (the father) the only true God" (John 17:3)
John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father (he said the father he didn't mention the son nor the Holy Spirit, he only mentioned the father because the father is God and God only should be worshipped but Christians worship Jesus TOO). Ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship… and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father…for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Sam Vimes

CatStevens wrote:

can??

yes, can. what's your point?

CatStevens wrote:

I believe Allah is God and the creator

ah, now we're getting back to "i believe". this thread isn't about beliefs. its about proof

Dades

bubonicus wrote:

Correct, but if man belives in something another man can not make them belive something else. So if somebody belives there is a god, Then there is a god. You might not belive that. But that's your business.

The only one valiantly trying to make someone else believe something else here is CatStevens. If someone believes in god that doesn't mean there is one. It just means they believe there is. Something either exists or it doesn't - what or who believes it exists is irrelevant.

MonkeyWrench wrote:

A bit off topic here but what are your opinions on what happened on Sept 11 in New York 5 years ago and how do you feel about the linkage to Islam?
Personally I think there are a minority group in every religon that takes this type of fundamentalism to its extreme and Islam should not be blamed as a whole. I would like to know your views though with your large knowledgebase of Islam and Allah.

A bit off topic? Wrong forum never mind wrong thread.
But if you want to post question CatStevens a seperate thread here on a/a work away.
No harm in debate - up to him if wants to bite.

CatStevens

MonkeyWrench

MonkeyWrench wrote:

Hi Cat Stevens,

Hi

MonkeyWrench wrote:

A bit off topic here but what are your opinions on what happened on Sept 11 in New York 5 years ago and how do you feel about the linkage to Islam?

*sighs* I'm so sorry for what happened, and If those guys ''sorry beasts'' were still alive I don't mind to punish them with my two hands publicly:mad: =(

MonkeyWrench wrote:

Personally I think there are a minority group in every religon that takes this type of fundamentalism to its extreme and Islam should not be blamed as a whole. ?

this is very rational, may Allah bless you

MonkeyWrench wrote:

I would like to know your views though with your large knowledge base of Islam and Allah.

?Do you know me?

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Tar.Aldarion

CatStevens wrote:

The Atheist
I was discussing not giving direct proofs such discussings leads you to whether believe or not

I already answered such a question, well, firstly you have to believe in his existence then you can know who is the true from the false God, let's take Christianty as an example Christians say Jesus is God yet Jesus himself said that he is not God:Jesus said: "And this is eternal life, that they may know The (the father) the only true God" (John 17:3)
John 4.21-34: (Jesus) saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father (he said the father he didn't mention the son nor the Holy Spirit, he only mentioned the father because the father is God and God only should be worshipped but Christians worship Jesus TOO). Ye worship ye know not what, we know what we worship… and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father…for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

When he says The Father he is referring to himself. Saying the father, the holy spirit and the son is like saying the same thing three different ways. It is a trinity, they are one person.
If I refer to Aldarion, am I not also referring to Tar.?

bubonicus

The Atheist wrote:

The only one valiantly trying to make someone else believe something else here is CatStevens. If someone believes in god that doesn't mean there is one. It just means they believe there is. Something either exists or it doesn't - what or who believes it exists is irrelevant.

I think somebody else started this thread for Cat.

Irrelevant, yes. Thank you.

CatStevens

Commander Vimes

Commander Vimes wrote:

ah, now we're getting back to "i believe".

Why cannot God be the creator at the same time?

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

CatStevens

Hi Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

When he says The Father he is referring to himself.Saying the father, the holy spirit and the son is like saying the same thing three different ways. It is a trinity, they are one person.

And there is no proof for that, but this is off topic, but I don't mind to discuss that if you want

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Dades

CatStevens wrote:

I already answered such a question, well, firstly you have to believe in his existence then you can know who is the true from the false God, let's take Christianty as an example...

Okay that's a good start. I'm aware of the arguments here regarding Jesus not being god. Don't have a view on them myself, but at least you have your reasons.

Now what about, for example, Brahma, the Hindu God of Creation? Why is he not the intelligent design behind all we see?

CatStevens

Tar.Aldarion

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

How pray tell did god come about?

A mere pray isn't enough as I said

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

something existing forever is illogical?

So how do you explain the existence of the universe, how did it come into the existence? btw please guys I think some of you didn't read my posts here maybe one or two because I think I'm repeating answers which I already answered so please read my posrs before posting

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Sam Vimes

CatStevens wrote:

Commander Vimes
Why cannot God be the creator at the same time?

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

he could well be. the creator could also be liam neeson since there's no proof he/she/it isn't. we're talking about why you believe it since there is nothing to indicate that it might be so

in fact, i am the lord jesus christ. prove i'm not

CatStevens

The Atheist

The Atheist wrote:

Now what about, for example, Brahma, the Hindu God of Creation? Why is he not the intelligent design behind all we see?

Well, As I said first we have to believe in his existence or at leat believe that his existence is possible, next we have to look at other religions to know whether he wants us to follow a particular religion or not, when I digged Islam, I had the confirm belief that this is the true religion I discussed those who disagree with me and they didn't disprove my belief, Acually I'm planning to dig other religions in the future those Hindus or whoever thinks that his religion is true I don't mind to discuss that whith him, my pleasure

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

CatStevens

Commander Vimes

Commander Vimes wrote:

in fact, i am the lord jesus christ. prove i'm not

Jesus believe in God yet you not I guess

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Dades

CatStevens wrote:

Well, As I said first we have to believe in his existence or at leat believe that his existence is possible, next we have to look at other religions to know whether he wants us to follow a particular religion or not, when I digged Islam, I had the confirm belief that this is the true religion I discussed those who disagree with me and they didn't disprove my belief, Acually I'm planning to dig other religions in the future those Hindus or whoever thinks that his religion is true I don't mind to discuss that whith him, my pleasure

What kind of Muslim plans to dig other religions that specifically state that Allah is not the creator - and something else is?!

To be fair I've got the answers I was looking for.

Zulu

CatStevens wrote:

Are you sure, when I said Wales' flowers, or Londons' Street Markets please concentrate,e.g. the colours , red colour shouldn't be in your eyes , the shadow of the flowers there must be someone to choose the suitable and the right amount of colours

Well no. I studied maths. It you have an infiniate amount of choices, one will be the one you require. Thats the nature of infinaty.

but chance cannot think

Infinate chance dosen't need to think.

to me Allah created this tree and leading these processes try to read how the tree develops and about its complexity, we are living in an organized universe my dear, the sun is important to these trees as well? by chance?

But Allah created Adam; he created a grown man. Did he also create the tree in it's mature state? And why did he bother creating a digestive system when he didn't have to? These questions don't prove anything. Your questinos don't prove anything.
All you are saying is: it's complicated, therefore god exists. That's not a proof, it's an assumption.

anyway I think we reached the point which is God's existence is possible

God may indeed be possiable. I believe a God may exist. I believe in the chance that a God exists, but I don't see any proof. If I saw proof I'd believe in a God.

CatStevens

The Atheist

The Atheist wrote:

What kind of Muslim plans to dig other religions that specifically state that Allah is not the creator - and something else is?!

'Cause many non-Muslims came to me and argue and others want me to leave Islam, well, it is better to have an idea about their belief when we discuss or talk , and to know why do they think that thir religion is true

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

pH

Cat, it's almost impossible to take you seriously. Why all the colours? Surely your argument should stand up in black and white. What you write, rather than the colour of what you write gives the text meaning.

I'm not arguing that your post in hip forums was not your own, merely pointing out that copying and pasting (even your own work) in different forums is a lazy way of trolling.

CatStevens

Zulu

Zulu wrote:

Well no. I studied maths. It you have an infiniate amount of choices, one will be the one you require. Thats the nature of infinaty.

Dear put maths aside can I colour ppl's faces in the market with blue colours? try to get my point

Zulu wrote:

But Allah created Adam; he created a grown man. Did he also create the tree in it's mature state?

He can do everything

Zulu wrote:

And why did he bother creating a digestive system

He wants you to survive and eat and to ponder his creation which leads to Him

Zulu wrote:

All you are saying is: it's complicated, therefore god exists. That's not a proof, it's an assumption.

I didn't say so, We have to ask ourselves such question 'cause to me they lead me that his existence is highly possible

Zulu wrote:

God may indeed be possiable. I believe a God may exist. I believe in the chance that a God exists, but I don't see any proof. If I saw proof I'd believe in a God.

WoW, Alhamdulilah =D so you aren't atheist my brother, so try to do do the two things I've mentioned my deepest sincere best wishes

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

bubonicus

Zulu wrote:

God may indeed be possiable. I believe a God may exist. I believe in the chance that a God exists, but I don't see any proof. If I saw proof I'd believe in a God.

No you would not. You would know god existed then. You would'nt have to believe it, you would know it.

CatStevens

pH

pH wrote:

Cat, it's almost impossible to take you seriously. Why all the colours?

Dear you don't like this example I already gave other ones

pH wrote:

is a lazy way of trolling.

That's what you think anyway, but me My answer is the same so I won't write it again very simple

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Zulu

CatStevens wrote:

Dear put maths aside can I colour ppl's faces in the market with blue colours? try to get my point

You can't ask me to put logical proof aside; thats asking me to imagine and imagination isn't proof.

He can do everything

I'm sure (s)he can. That doesn't proove his existance, it mearly refutes your earlier conclusions that because the system is so complex there must be a God. Surely if God was any good, he would have made eveything far simpler?

He wants you to survive and eat

...but "He can do everything"; (s)he can create a living being that dosen't need to eat.

WoW, Alhamdulilah =D so you aren't atheist my brother,

I never claimed to be. I think perhaps you made another assumption. I think I'm best described as agnostic.

Dades

CatStevens wrote:

Cause many non-Muslims came to me and argue and others want me to leave Islam, well, it is better to have an idea about their belief when we discuss or talk , and to know why do they think that thir religion is true

But in the interim, before you get a chance to dig other religions, would it be true to say you've reached a conclusion without all the facts?

CatStevens

Zulu

Zulu wrote:

You can't ask me to put logical proof aside; thats asking me to imagine and imagination isn't proof.Dear I my example was about colouring, every thing in the picture has a particular colour and shadow.

Zulu wrote:

because the system is so complex there must be a God.

When did I say so? please again I said such questions and discussions led me as it did to many other ppl that the existence of God is possible.

Zulu wrote:

(s)he can create a living being that dosen't need to eat.

yep He can and can create a living being that need to eat.

Zulu wrote:

I never claimed to be. I think perhaps you made another assumption. I think I'm best described as agnostic.

Good ^^ Alhamdulilah, well you know I wrote in my first posts in this thread

Ok, let me start this way, I want one Atheist to argue with me

My question to every atheist

I wish you all the best Zulu
Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Zombrex

Wow, I haven't been this disappointed since they cancelled Beverly Hills 90210

Thats it? That is the proof?

CatStevens wrote:

Human were created from nothing or by nothing. This proposal violates basic reason. Something cannot come from nothing. Nothing cannot create something.

Very true. But humans were not created from nothing, humans were created from hyrogen, carbon and oxygen (and a few other bits as well). So I am not sure where the idea that humans were created from nothing comes from.

CatStevens wrote:

Humans created themselves.

Well humans actually do create themselves. Your parents bodies (mostly your mother) built you, from raw material ingested in your mothers food, from a single one of her cells.

You can trace this liniage back nearly 4 billion years to the formation of the very first self-replicating molecules, that under the right conditions begain to replicate naturally under the energy of the sun.

CatStevens wrote:

Humans were created by something already created. This implies in infinite regression of causes which ultimately means that humans do not exist.

Well now you get to the interesting part. What created the matter, some of which would eventually start forming self-replicating molecules on the Earths surface 6 billion years later?

All matter energy and time was created in the instance of the big bang, some 10 billion years ago. But what created the big bang.

Now hold on to your hat. In all possibility the universe wasn't created! :eek:

What? I hear you ask. That makes no sense. It doesn't in our view of the universe as we see it sitting inside it.

But if time doesn't exist yet, then the term "created" has no meaning, because it implies cause and effect. How can you have cause and effect with no passage of time exists to facilitate that creation. It would be as illogical as saying "i am going to make this 2 days ago"

Before the big bang the rules of how we view the nature of the universe are out the window. Time doesn't exist yet. Matter doesn't exist yet. Energy doesn't exist yet.

So you cannot say what created the big bang because linear time doesn't exist yet, it too was created with the big bang. This opens up a range of possible alternatives to the way we normally think about cause and effect, though it is doubtful we will ever know which is correct.

It is possible that time is set on an infinate loop, that time will be start, expand, collapse and start again. But this is just one possibility.

Our brains have a hard time visually comprehend these possibilities, because we think inside the rules of our own universe, rules created at the big bang.

So I can understand Cat how you might have trouble with these concepts, and prefer to believe the teachings of a religion that sounds more grounded in every day experience, that works in the framework of the rules of our universe. It is easier to think of things in terms of things created and destroyed, in terms of a creator. But there is no logical reason to believe this is how the pre-bigbang existance worked.

CatStevens wrote:

If C1 were caused by C2, and C2 by C3 to CN, then C1 cannot exist unless C2 does, etc.

That is only true if linear time exists. If linear time doesn't exist yet, as in before the big bang, then C1 following C2 isn't a given at all.

CatStevens wrote:

How do you think this universe existed, how did it come to the existence

Absolutely no idea. But there is no logical reason to believe a supernatural god did it.

There is no logical reason to believe it was even created, since without time the term "created" has no meaning

CatStevens wrote:

My answer is humans and other created things were created by a being which is not itself created what about yours let's start the discussion this way.

You can choose to believe that if you wish, but there is no evidence for that assumption, or logical reason to believe it. And there is certainly no proof to support that idea.

CatStevens

The Atheist

The Atheist wrote:

But in the interim, before you get a chance to dig other religions, would it be true to say you've reached a conclusion without all the facts?

conclusion/facts concerning what?

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Sam Vimes

CatStevens wrote:

Commander Vimes
Jesus believe in God yet you not I guess

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

that's not proof. i have merely professed to be atheist. i could be god in disguise and you can't prove i'm not. the point of my argument is that you shouldn't believe in something simply because there is no proof against it. i refer you to the argument of the flying spaghetti monster.

Your argument is simply intelligent design. anyone with a concept of mathematics will tell you that in an infinite universe anything will happen

let's move it away from religion for a second to explain my point further. if you were given a dartboard and a dart and tried to hit the bullseye you'd probably miss. but if you were given 1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 chances, you would eventually hit it, probably multiple times.

i realise that life is improbable but with billions of years of proteins sloshing around in goo, the chances are quite good that they would eventually come together in a way that would form a viable life form. there is absolutely no evidence that there was a divine being guiding things.

the only place where science fails is at the creation of the universe. matter wasn't, and then was. this violates the laws of physics. life from no life does not. and even if it did, that doesn't mean women should wear clothes that only show their eyes. that idea's entirely man made