Is the UK a foreign country?

JaysusMacfeck

Ireland Act 1949 wrote:

The Republic of Ireland is not recognised as a foreign country under British law. The term "Republic of Ireland" can be substituted for "Éire" in the UK. The term "Ireland" refers to the island of Ireland and not the sovereign state. This still has force of law in the UK.

Is the UK recognised as a foreign country in Ireland? And as the ROI is 100% independant from the UK, under their law it is not recognised as a foreign nation, even to this day. In that case, the ROI is not a sovereign state under British law. Why is this? Does it mean that they could legally invade Ireland during the next world war?!

Under EU law, are Ireland and the UK recognised as one foreign entity or two?

Sand

Does it mean that they could legally invade Ireland during the next world war?!

Only if WW3 is fought by lawyers.

BlitzKrieg

Does it mean that they could legally invade Ireland during the next world war?!

They couldnt in the last one, so why the next one.


Well to be more accurate Churchill tried bullying deVelera to give back the treaty ports to fight the atlantic war and it was rumoured he threats went as far as full out military occupation (I could be wrong though). Seeing as that was Britain's darkest hour and the military occupation never came to light, its got to be something pretty horrific for some Prime minister to have the b*lls to do something like that when the distinction both politically and cultural between the two states is much larger now.

magick

Only if WW3 is fought by lawyers.

thats gonna be one ugly war!

not to mention the lawyers that we have will drag out the conflict for years!

GreenHell

BlitzKrieg wrote:

They couldnt in the last one, so why the next one.


Well to be more accurate Churchill tried bullying deVelera to give back the treaty ports to fight the atlantic war and it was rumoured he threats went as far as full out military occupation (I could be wrong though). Seeing as that was Britain's darkest hour and the military occupation never came to light, its got to be something pretty horrific for some Prime minister to have the b*lls to do something like that when the distinction both politically and cultural between the two states is much larger now.

I think, though not 100% sure that he said something like " we should take back dublin and spread out" I think that was said during the civil war but tbh I'm not sure of the timeline.

LostinBlanch

Well Straffan and specifically The K club is subject to UK law for the duration of the Ryder Cup. This is one of the conditions of Ireland getting awarded the Ryder Cup.

The irony of somewhere outside the Pale being part of the UK appeals to me

LostinBlanch

magick wrote:

thats gonna be one ugly war!

not to mention the lawyers that we have will drag out the conflict for years!

Only if they get paid in advance and constant refresher payments!

Yes, but we get on with them because they speak our language...;)

Moriarty

LostinBlanch wrote:

Well Straffan and specifically The K club is subject to UK law for the duration of the Ryder Cup. This is one of the conditions of Ireland getting awarded the Ryder Cup.

The irony of somewhere outside the Pale being part of the UK appeals to me

Proof please.

LostinBlanch

LostinBlanch wrote:

Well Straffan and specifically The K club is subject to UK law for the duration of the Ryder Cup. This is one of the conditions of Ireland getting awarded the Ryder Cup.

The irony of somewhere outside the Pale being part of the UK appeals to me

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Only just read this. Tbh, I didn't think it could happen, the Government cannot simply assign sovereignty over some part of this country and change the legal system in a certain area for a weekend or two.

Can anyone get a source for this or is it completely made up?

LordSutch

We are all related anyway in one way or another through blood, language & customs, and since the good friday agreement & in particular (the council of the isles) we are on a parallell footing with the UK (England/Scotland/NI/Wales) + the Isle of Man and the Channel islands! so really we might as well be in the UK now (2006) or as we were in 1922, not that it really matters one way or the other, we are free to choose our destiny the same as everybody else in the British Isles is free to choose which identity they want & which flag represents them ........ So is the UK a "Foreign Nation"? NO ~ Not as far as I am concerned, although most might disagree, and obviously on a superficial basis the UK has Devolved Governments & obviously the Dail is Not one of those devolved, & is free to do what it likes, but so is the Manx Government & so is the Scottish Parliament, & so is the Welsh assembly! but then if you look at the (Bigger picture) we might as well be one of theose devolved Governments (think ID cards)!

A Dub in Glasgo

No matter how much you would like it to be - The RoI is not in the UK and it does matter.

You talk about devolved government in Scotland as if the Scottish are independent. If they were, I doubt very much if her young people would be blown up in Iraq, in Afganistan. I doubt very much if the Greater Glasgow area would be home to a massive store of Weapons of Mass Destruction. I doubt very much if the Scottish government would be imprisoning families including children because they are asylum seekers. Devolution has given some control to the Scottish people but not much.

Blue37

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You talk about devolved government in Scotland as if the Scottish are independent. If they were, I doubt very much if her young people would be blown up in Iraq, in Afganistan.

What's your point?? It's not like the wee lads and lassies were forcibly frogmarched onto transport planes by their evil English overlords :rolleyes:

admiralofthefleet

aurthur the scots & welsh assemblies cant do what they like. they have powers over tax & education but that is as far as it goes.
the british crown is still in full control of them.

aurthur the isle of mann is NOT part of the uk. its an independant country but it is a crown dependancy/principality. they have their own parlaiment called the house of keys and they are fully in control (taxation, law, etc..)

Ireland is a fully independant, soveriegn state.
we are free citizens of ireland and not royal subjects.

the first post shocked me and i will be emailing dermot ahern as soon as possible

vector

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

Is the UK recognised as a foreign country in Ireland? And as the ROI is 100% independant from the UK, under their law it is not recognised as a foreign nation, even to this day

You are referring to the Ireland Act, 1949 (which was passed in the UK)
yes it does say "...the Republic of Ireland is not a foreign country..."
however it might have since been repealed?

The Belfast agreement/Good Friday Agreement, 1998 recognises that there are two states -the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland

but even if the provision is still in force it doesn't matter, as the UN, EU and all the other important internation bodies of today recognise Ireland as a country in its own right.

admiralofthefleet

I just remembered, under the good friday agreement retified by the people of this island the term REPUBLIC OF IRELAND is no longer recognised as official by either the Irish or British governments, THIS country is now simply called IRELAND. maybe this abolises & supercedes the 1949 british law?



also the term British Isles has no official or political status, as i was told in an email from dermot ahern. its use by british media is totally pointless but continues.

google 'ireland is not british' and click the wikipedia link and read and also look at what it says about 'british isles'. Sile De Velera would be disowned by Eamonn De Velera after what she said in 2002

Mick86

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

And as the ROI is 100% independant from the UK, under their law it is not recognised as a foreign nation, even to this day. In that case, the ROI is not a sovereign state under British law.....

There's a British Embassy in Dublin. So they must realise we are a foreign country. Then there's other little things like different flag, different government and so on.

Zebra3

admiralgar wrote:

Ireland is a fully independant, soveriegn state.
we are free citizens of ireland and not royal subjects.

I would disagree with your statement of Ireland being a fully independent soveriegn state. How can it be when EU legislation supercedes so many of our laws? We no longer have our own currency or central bank. The reality is that Ireland is little more than a province of a European empire.

A Dub in Glasgo

Blue37 wrote:

What's your point?? It's not like the wee lads and lassies were forcibly frogmarched onto transport planes by their evil English overlords :rolleyes:

My point is fairly obvious

robinph

Deleted User wrote:

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Only just read this. Tbh, I didn't think it could happen, the Government cannot simply assign sovereignty over some part of this country and change the legal system in a certain area for a weekend or two.

Can anyone get a source for this or is it completely made up?

It was done, in Holland I think, for the trials of the Lockerbie bombers where Scotish laws were in use on the military base that they were using for the duration of the trial.

robinph

robinph wrote:

It was done, in Holland I think, for the trials of the Lockerbie bombers where Scotish laws were in use on the military base that they were using for the duration of the trial.

Oh it has been done, but there was a difference between doing it for the trial of international terrosists and doing it for a golf outing.

As noone has sourced it, I presume we file the it alongside the 'asylum seekers get a free merc on arrival in Ireland' story, in the bin...

mikemac

Deleted User wrote:

As noone has sourced it, I presume we file the it alongside the 'asylum seekers get a free merc on arrival in Ireland' story, in the bin...

It's true, the event will be governed by English law.

Source:
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1645736&issue_id=14300

English law is par for course

PART of the sovereign territory of Ireland is to be brought under English jurisdiction.

Irish law is being supplanted by English law - with the apparent co-operation of the gardai - at the K Club for the duration of the Ryder Cup in September.

The prestigious venue occupies 550 acres of Co Kildare countryside, but for the week of the Ryder Cup (September 18-24) the Michael Smurfit-owned property is being handed over to Ryder Cup Ltd, a group company of the PGA European Tour, based in Surrey.

Ryder Cup Ltd (RCL) will operate all areas with regard to access, security, transport, crowd control and the overall management of the tournament.

A letter to all property owners at the K Club - properties there range in value from about €1.5m to €7m - outlines policies and regulations for the event.

The letter, from K Club chief executive Michael Davern, points out that many of the arrangements and regulations are driven by the stringent security required. He asks for understanding and compliance with the measures.

According to the letter, gardai and RCL have been discussing security at the event and gardai will require the names of all persons who will be residing on site each day and night or visiting any of the residences during the week.

At the end of the detailed list of rules, the letter adds: "These policies and regulations shall be governed and construed under English Law."

All property owners were obliged to return a signed copy of the policies and regulations, signifying agreement to the terms outlined.

The official website of the Ryder Cup spells out the implications of governance under English law.

Referring to use of the website, it says: "These terms shall be governed by and construed in accordance with English law. Any dispute under these terms shall be subject to the exclusive jurisdiction of the English courts and, by using this website, you hereby submit to the jurisdiction of such courts for such purposes and waive any and all objections to jurisdiction or venue in such courts., The Irish Independent understands that a number of property owners at the K Club have taken exception to the move.To date, none has commented publicly on the controversy.

Expressing "enormous surprise" at the development, one lawyer pointed out that Irish law differed significantly from English law in that it was implemented in accordance with the Constitution, which copperfastens an individual's property rights, whereas England does not have a written constitution.

"In that respect it may well be a clever move by the organisers of the Ryder Cup" as, by signing such a document, "property owners may well be dispensing with their rights under Irish constitutional law".

However, he said the conditions could include agreement that the matter come under the jurisdiction of a British court.

"There's nothing illegal about it. It's a matter of choice for the parties."

Fine Gael Senator Ulick Burke said he was astounded at the notion that Irish law would be dispensed with in favour of English law for any event being held within the jurisdiction of the State.

It was "even more bizarre" that the organisers were seeking the co-operation of the gardai to implement the measure.

Senator Burke added: "It is also amazing that neither the Sports Minister John O'Donoghue nor Justice Minister Michael McDowell has done anything about this. Are they trying to keep it quiet or do they even know about it?

"It is quite baffling as to how an event that has been planned to such an extent over recent years with the co-operation of so many state organisations is now being run under English law."

The event will be broadcast to 550m homes across the globe,

It is expected to attract daily crowds of up to 45,000 as the professional golfers of Europe defend the trophy against the US.

Elmo

Is the UK recognised as a foreign country in Ireland? And as the ROI is 100% independant from the UK, under their law it is not recognised as a foreign nation, even to this day. In that case, the ROI is not a sovereign state under British law. Why is this? Does it mean that they could legally invade Ireland during the next world war?!

Under EU law, are Ireland and the UK recognised as one foreign entity or two?

I am assume that under the Good Friday Agreement that since we change our consitution that the british should have changed their laws in realtion to any time of legal hold that they have over the RoI and the name of the country.

Eire = Ireland (The whole Island)
Poblacht Na hEireanne = The Republic Of Ireland

IMO.

But yes Britian is a foreign country

micmclo

micmclo wrote:

It's true, the event will be governed by English law.

I can't believe the spin being put on that. Someone should point out that every single day of the week all over Ireland contracts are signed which are subject to the laws of a different jurisdiction eg. any contract for Spanish property contains a clause stating that the contract is governed by the laws of Spain. It has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Spanish law taking over from Irish law, even though the normal rule is that the law of the country where the contract is signed applies.

Clearly, it is within the powers of parties according the security contracts to insert a clause stating that English contract law governs the matter. To suggest that they have supplanted the criminal law that applies between this state and its citizens is nonsense of the highest order and a non-story.

Moriarty

There's a pretty major distinction between property owners being subject to a UK-based contract relating to their property and saying that the area and everyone in it will be 'governed by UK law'.

But by all means don't let that stop you from sensationalising and misconstruing the facts.

<edit: what he said ^>

robinph

It's probably just so they can leave the bar open 24hours then.

JaysusMacfeck

I wonder what would happen if a local refused to sign the Ps and Rs.

Off with their heads?

Moriarty

robinph wrote:

It's probably just so they can leave the bar open 24hours then.

The Irish licensing laws will apply to the K-Club the same as anywhere else in the country. All Irish civil and criminal law will still apply inside the K-Club throughout the ryder cup.

JaysusMacfeck

Moriarty wrote:

The Irish licensing laws will apply to the K-Club the same as anywhere else in the country. All Irish civil and criminal law will still apply inside the K-Club throughout the ryder cup.

I was hoping to get my girlfriend up the pole just so I could preform a legal abortion on-site.

JaysusMacfeck

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

I was hoping to get my girlfriend up the pole just so I could preform a legal abortion on-site.

I shouldn't, but...

Gurgle

From the constitution:

Article 4
The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland.

vector

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

...UK...Does it mean that they could legally invade Ireland...

well they could invade Ireland if they wanted to today, just as any country with a large military force can invade another if it wants to, but could they do it "legally", who knows

Victor

The UK is a different country, not a foreign one.

Zebra3 wrote:

I would disagree with your statement of Ireland being a fully independent soveriegn state. How can it be when EU legislation supercedes so many of our laws? We no longer have our own currency or central bank. The reality is that Ireland is little more than a province of a European empire.

We can tell the EU to go stuff themselves, we just choose not to.

Mick86

micmclo wrote:

It's true, the event will be governed by English law.

It can't be governed by English Law no matter what the organisers say or do.

THE NATIONAL PARLIAMENT

Constitution and Powers

Article 15

2. 1° The sole and exclusive power of making laws for the State is hereby vested in the Oireachtas: no other legislative authority has power to make laws for the State.

I'd file the Independent story under Silly Season Fantasy if I were you.

EamonnKeane

The irony of somewhere outside the Pale being part of the UK appeals to me

Actually most of the K Club, including the Ryder Cup golf course, was part of the Pale. The Liffey marks the boundary in this area.

Also, aren't embassies subject to that country's laws?

Blackjack

micmclo wrote:

It's true, the event will be governed by English law.

Source:
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1645736&issue_id=14300

Errrr.... Yeah. Perhaps the Indo is just showing it's true credentials as a tabloid now, with that type of sensationalist clap-trap.

LordSutch

admiralgar wrote:

also the term British Isles has no official or political status, as i was told in an email from dermot ahern. its use by british media is totally pointless but continues.

google 'ireland is not british' and click the wikipedia link and read and also look at what it says about 'british isles'. Sile De Velera would be disowned by Eamonn De Velera after what she said in 2002

The term 'British Isles' is a geographical term very much in existence today throughout the world .........

The term does not imply that you are 'British' or that Ireland is British, but the term does signify a point on the World map showing (The islands off the North West coast of Europe) which includes the island of Britain, the island of Ireland, the Isle of Man, the Channel islands, and all other smaller islands thereof!

"The term British isles is not Political" and as for (wilkpedia) their aim is to change anything and everything that some people disagree with! in other words, if I were to object to the term "The Irish Sea" then wilkpedia may argue that its name could be changed to the "British & Irish Sea", so I say when talking about Geographical terms, leave well enough alone ...............................

redspider

(off topic to the original post)

Hold on a second .....

I have a particular bone to pick about the misnomer that is the British Isles.

It is a major cause for confusion internationally and because of it many people still believe that Ireland (nation) is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UKOGBANI), and many people are to do this day in their school's across China, India and the world still learning that.

It is completely misleading and the two major islands, Ireland and Britain, and the rest of the related cluster, Isle of Man, Faroe Islands, Channel Islands, Rockall, and perhaps even Iceland should be renamed. Perhaps the "European Isles" would be a more appropriate goegraphic descriptor, but I'm sure some people in the EC could come up with some suggestions.

The naming of the islands as the "British Isles" only came about from the political situation at a certain time and the fact that the island of Ireland was ruled from London and England. It worked during that time to a certain degree. But it is now long gone past its best-before-date and should be renamed to something else.

Irish Geography teachers, lecturers, academics Unite! - and lobby your TD's and MEP's for a change.

redspider

oscarBravo

redspider wrote:

Irish Geography teachers, lecturers, academics Unite! - and lobby your TD's and MEP's for a change.

Or, y'know, don't. I mean, meh, tbh.

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

My point is fairly obvious

I dont think it is,as I can join the British army if I wanted to(I most certainly dont) and I most certainly am not a citizen of the UK.

Kaiser_Sma

admiralgar wrote:

aurthur the scots & welsh assemblies cant do what they like. they have powers over tax & education but that is as far as it goes.
the british crown is still in full control of them.

aurthur the isle of mann is NOT part of the uk. its an independant country but it is a crown dependancy/principality. they have their own parlaiment called the house of keys and they are fully in control (taxation, law, etc..)

Ireland is a fully independant, soveriegn state.
we are free citizens of ireland and not royal subjects.

The 'british crown' emphisis here is revealing. It's not as if the queen has any effective executive power of these areas, being a royal subject is mearly a choice of title or a flowery piece of meanigless phraseology. Not something to be particularily worried about.

The scots and the welsh are free and without repression, they have as much a say in there own parliments as they do in the houses of parliment.

The people of the british isles are very similar, the thing that keeps them apart and fiercly nationalistic is the butchers apron bestowed apon england. Repeled by a common but passive hatred of the old enemy. People should be looking for the similarities and reveling in our diversties as opposed to magniflying historical differnces. Political ties are already there and symbiotic, but steps need to be taken to wash of the hereditary grudge that seems to push a side the more appealing parts of irish culture.

Kaiser_Sma

redspider wrote:

(off topic to the original post)

Hold on a second .....

I have a particular bone to pick about the misnomer that is the British Isles.

It is a major cause for confusion internationally and because of it many people still believe that Ireland (nation) is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UKOGBANI), and many people are to do this day in their school's across China, India and the world still learning that.

It is completely misleading and the two major islands, Ireland and Britain, and the rest of the related cluster, Isle of Man, Faroe Islands, Channel Islands, Rockall, and perhaps even Iceland should be renamed. Perhaps the "European Isles" would be a more appropriate goegraphic descriptor, but I'm sure some people in the EC could come up with some suggestions.

The naming of the islands as the "British Isles" only came about from the political situation at a certain time and the fact that the island of Ireland was ruled from London and England. It worked during that time to a certain degree. But it is now long gone past its best-before-date and should be renamed to something else.

Irish Geography teachers, lecturers, academics Unite! - and lobby your TD's and MEP's for a change.

redspider

Two very close islands, over half of the land mass and the vast majority of the population is based in britain, it is thus geographically distinguished. Tagging it with iceland or any other will just defuse it's purpose completly, as will naming it something ambiguous and meaningless like the 'european isles'. It has no official significance so whats the problem.

It has nothing to do with the confusion in foreign schools, just that they can't teach kids about every single country especially ones with small populations and (lets face it) with little international significance compared with the big players and the major trouble makers.

I found an old picture atlas i got when i was younger (1991). It gives a short histroy of the area entiled 'the british isles' including ireland gaining it's independence in 1921 and that it's mostly catholic. The box next to ireland reads 'Much of ireland's wealth comes from farming , particularily raising sheep and cattle'
As you can see riviting stuff for a foregin child to learn about in the grand scheme of things.

Blackjack

Kaiser_Sma wrote:

I found an old picture atlas i got when i was younger (1991). It gives a short histroy of the area entiled 'the british isles' including ireland gaining it's independence in 1921 and that it's mostly catholic. The box next to ireland reads 'Much of ireland's wealth comes from farming , particularily raising sheep and cattle'
As you can see riviting stuff for a foregin child to learn about in the grand scheme of things.

thankfully the rest of the country has moved well past the picture from your Atlas from 1991. Maybe this is progress.

Gurgle

redspider wrote:

It is a major cause for confusion internationally and because of it many people still believe that Ireland (nation) is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UKOGBANI), and many people are to do this day in their school's across China, India and the world still learning that.

Yes, thats terrible.
Now, tell us everything you learned in school about Togo. Its history, government, population etc.

The naming of the islands as the "British Isles" only came about from the political situation at a certain time and the fact that the island of Ireland was ruled from London and England.

Yes, in 320 BC they were referred to as the 'Islands of Prettanike', inhabited by the 'Pritani'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_isles
Somehow the 'P' became a 'B' and its all political from there.

GerardKeating

JaysusMacfeck wrote:

Does it mean that they could legally invade Ireland during the next world war?

They can legally invade any foreign country, just ask any Iraqi

GerardKeating

Gurgle wrote:

Yes, in 320 BC they were referred to as the 'Islands of Prettanike', inhabited by the 'Pritani'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_isles
Somehow the 'P' became a 'B' and its all political from there.

The origion of the term "Briton" is a reference to the celtic tribes which inhabited these lands during the roman era, so one could argue that the Irish, Scots, Manx, Conish & Welsh (decendants of these "british tribes") are british, but those decended from the anglo-saxon invaders (the English) are NOT. ....

Saruman

The way i see it... and this has nothing to do with law.. just the way i see things... Ireland.. the 26 counties is a single country... seperate from the UK like the UK is seperate from France or Germany... but joined in the same emerging EU superstate... It will happen... some day... I do not see it as an issue...

I also see Northern Ireland as being foreign. Its part of the UK so nothing to do with my country other than sharing a border. To be honest i would be happy of both Britain and Ireland decided they had enough of their complaining and cut ties with NI leaving them to sort it out amongst themselves. Let them be their own country. Either way we are all European so it does not matter at the end of the day. The Sooner we only have one EU flag flying and no more Union Jack or tri colour the better.

Kaiser_Sma

Blackjack wrote:

thankfully the rest of the country has moved well past the picture from your Atlas from 1991. Maybe this is progress.

yes well i'm sure increasing house prices and the smoking ban will put us right back in the school textbooks.
Ireland is a great country, and a succefull one, it just isn't very interesting in the grand scheme of things.

LordSutch

redspider wrote:

(off topic to the original post)

Hold on a second .....
I have a particular bone to pick about the misnomer that is the British Isles.

It is a major cause for confusion internationally and because of it many people still believe that Ireland (nation) is part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (UKOGBANI), and many people are to do this day in their school's across China, India and the world still learning that.

Irish Geography teachers, lecturers, academics Unite! - and lobby your TD's and MEP's for a change.

redspider

No, no, no, no & no ..........There is no major international confusion about the geographical location that is "The British isles" but there is some confusion here in this country from some people who "Hate" the word British in the name, even though it is a geographical reality (even on RTE)!

ArthurF

ArthurF wrote:

No, no, no, no & no ..........There is no major international confusion about the geographical location that is "The British isles" but there is some confusion here in this country from some people who "Hate" the word British in the name, even though it is a geographical reality (even on RTE)!

I understand that there was a weather presenter removed from RTÉ a good few years ago for referring constantly to the "British Isles".

Correct me somebody if I am wrong but I'd imagine that term was propegated by the British atlas and has spread from there into more common parlance.
The Island of Ireland is not British,though some of it is legally British territory ergo the term British isles should not include Ireland,not since partition anyway.

Mick86

GerardKeating wrote:

The origion of the term "Briton" is a reference to the celtic tribes which inhabited these lands during the roman era, so one could argue that the Irish, Scots, Manx, Conish & Welsh (decendants of these "british tribes") are british, but those decended from the anglo-saxon invaders (the English) are NOT. ....

I agree. So we British should demand the removal of those German usurpers from our territory.:D