Any thoughts on practical shotgun

Remmy

Hi all
I was just wondering if there was anyone interested in practical shotguns ?
I am very interested in it and would like to hear someones opinions if it will ever take off over here like it is in the states or the UK .? Is the gear hard to optain over here ,i.e mag extensions ,aftermarket 24 inch barrels ,surefire lights and the like .

Also is someone legally allowed to shorten the barrel down to 24 inches themselves or does it need to be done by a gunsmith .

If anyone is in to this genre of shotguns could they please tell me what they favour .The remington 870 seems like the obvious choice but the only aftermarket 24 inch barrels available for them are the hastings and they seem like big money .

What does everyone think of the stoeger pump actions . They look to be like a cheap alternative to the bennelli nova and they come with a 24 inch barrel out of the factory .

If someone has any opinions on the above topics ,I would love to hear them .

Thanks
Remmy

Clare gunner

Hi Remmy,
Love to get it going here.I personally tried to get it going back in the 80s/90s but was stuck for a proper site and insurance problems.There was/is an intrest all right.I always think that it would be an option for those who can get a shotgun cert,but might have mega problems with a handgun liscense.

Getting the aftermarket kit is no hassle,I have orderd it no problem from the USA.It isnt illegal to mount whatever you want on a liscensed firearm over here.

Yes,you can shorthen the barrel yourself.But be DOUBLE DAMN sure you know what you are doing.:eek: It is 24ins from closed breech face to barrel end,according to Garda Tech dept last time I spoke to them.So make sure your measurement is for saftey sake is 24.25ins.I would suggest you get the work done on a lathe for a clean finish ,or use a very fine toothed hacksaw.It is best to leave it to a gunsmith,or just buy a 24in barrel.
Myself I like Mossberg 500 in either civvie or milspec versions,but I prefer the fore end in wood.The plastic forends are too small for my hands and dont feel right.They are good solid cheapish guns.I also prefer where Mossberg has their saftey,ontop of the reciver rather than the trigger gaurd on Remington

Next Remington either the 870 or 1100.My personal for practical shooting is an 1100 modified,24in barrel,9shot choate mag,orange spring follower,Choate FN stock and forend,tac shell loader,and oversize, battery handle.
Either brands are fine.If they are used by most PDs in the US and by the US army ,thats good eniugh for me.Find the Benelli is a very fast gun,but too light,it kicks like Hell.
Or a really good one is the Saiga 12.Looks like an AK on steroids.Eight round box mag.Is becoming a fast fav on the practical ranges in Europe.Trouble is they are in short supply at the moment.
Stoeger,dunno anything about them.You can still get the Mossberg with a combo pack deal.A 500 with a normal game hunting barrel and a 24in slug barrel.Ditto for Remington.

Sparks

It isnt illegal to mount whatever you want on a liscensed firearm over here.

It can be. Depends on what you want to mount.

Firearms Act 2006, Section 1:

(g) except where the context otherwise requires, any component part of any article referred to in any of the foregoing paragraphs and, without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, the following articles shall be deemed to be such component parts:
(i) telescope sights with a light beam, or telescope sights with an electronic light amplification device or an infra-red device, designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b), (c) or (e),
(ii) a silencer designed to be fitted to a firearm specified in paragraph (a), (b) or (e), and
(iii) any object—
(I) manufactured for use as a component in connection with the operation of a firearm, and
(II) without which it could not function as originally designed,

rrpc

I always thought that the practical use of a shotgun was for shooting game

Remmy

Thanks for the replies guys
Claregunner,
I am actually quite fond of the mossberg myself
I also saw that combo deal that mossberg has going with the 28 inch barrel and the 24 inch slug barrel .I like the idea of the rifle sights on the slug barrel for the longer out shots with slugs but I could,nt make out from the website if the slug barrel was fully rifled or a cylinder bore .would you know ?
Also would you run into any difficulty importing adtional barrels from the states when there are different serial numbers on that barrel and the one thats licensed to your gun ?

Thanks,
Remmy

hillybilly

Put my name on the list .I would be verry intrested.:cool:

Clare gunner

Remmy wrote:

Thanks for the replies guys
Claregunner,
I am actually quite fond of the mossberg myself
I also saw that combo deal that mossberg has going with the 28 inch barrel and the 24 inch slug barrel .I like the idea of the rifle sights on the slug barrel for the longer out shots with slugs but I could,nt make out from the website if the slug barrel was fully rifled or a cylinder bore .would you know ?
Also would you run into any difficulty importing adtional barrels from the states when there are different serial numbers on that barrel and the one thats licensed to your gun ?

Thanks,
Remmy

I have the combo deal ,the slug barrel is a unrifled cylinder bore.

The USA does not classify a barrel as a component,the only part of a firearm in the US that is classified as the firearm per se is the reciver.That must have a serial no.So the barrels should be no problem to export in THEORY. This all changed somwhat with Klintoon and the UN weapons export bans etc.Many dealers will not ship outside CONUS because of this.Some will,if you ship them a clear photocopy of your liscense they will usually ship.You might have to shop around abit.They usually are not too pickey on shotgun barrels.Hope this helps

kowloon

What exactly is the deal with slugs here anyway?

Clare gunner

kowloon wrote:

What exactly is the deal with slugs here anyway?

Legal for vermin/target shooting.

spideog7

Legal for vermin/target shooting.

Really i didn't know that ...and I was always of the opinion that there was a minimum barrel length here that made the 24" slug barrel illegal ??
So is it legal to use normal leadshot in a slug barrel ?

Whats Practical shotgun by the by (forgive me...not much into target shooting :rolleyes: )

Clare gunner

Really i didn't know that ...and I was always of the opinion that there was a minimum barrel length here that made the 24" slug barrel illegal ??

24ins IS the minimum legal length on a shotgun.Except in one case,if you have a genuine Winchester 1897 pumpaction riot gun,which have 16.5 ins.These are rare as the proveribal hens teeth these days,and are an exception as they were used in the war of independance and civil war.
Plus they are collectors pieces and quite valueable.

So is it legal to use normal leadshot in a slug barrel ?

Yes ,no problem there t all.

Whats Practical shotgun by the by (forgive me...not much into target shooting :rolleyes: )

Practical shotgun is a competition shooting sport derived from the IPSC shooting matches.It involves moveing through various different types of obstacle cources and shooting at different targets from various positions,etc.
This is a simplified explanation.

garmac

Practical shotgun is a competition shooting sport derived from the IPSC shooting matches.It involves moveing through various different types of obstacle cources and shooting at different targets from various positions,etc

Sounds really interesting. Where do I sign up.

Clare gunner

Talk to Les45 and the lads from IPSA.It comes under their banner.Understandbly they are concentrating on getting practical pistol going,but I would think practical shotgun would be a good contingency and springboard if somthing should go pear shaped with pistols here,and if not a good launch for practical rifle and three gun matches.

Slav

Could someone enlighten me on this 24" minimum barrel length issue? Is it a law or just a common practice?

It probably does not make a lot of sense to have a shorter then 24" barrel for clays or hunting but it might be handy for a practical shotgun to have a barrel in 18" - 24" range. Any chances this might change when the sport is recognised here?

Sparks

It's a law Slav. From the Firearms Act 2006 (and this part has been enacted):

12A.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person who shortens the barrel of—
(a) a shot-gun to a length of less than 61 centimetres, or
(b) a rifle to a length of less than 50 centimetres,
is guilty of an offence.

61cm is approximately 24 inches.

(Subsection 2 mentioned above says that it's not an offence to shorten the barrel to less than that if you're about to fix it in such a way that it's longer than 24" when you've finished)

Slav

Thanks Sparks. My understanding of this section of FA 2006 is that it's an offence to licence for instance a 72cm barrel shotgun and then shorten the barrel(s) to less then 61cm. In terms of the new FA it's not clear what's the story with the factory made short barrel shotguns and so licensed as such.

Sparks

That's pretty much the case Slav. If the licence was granted, there'd be nothing in the law to say you couldn't have such a shotgun. It'd be the granting of the licence that'd be the tricky part. And I expect that after the first court case to get a licence for an 18" shotgun was taken, the Minister would declare all shotguns under 24" to be restricted, and issue a guideline that no shotgun under 24" should be issued a licence (assuming such a guideline wasn't part of the initial issuing of such guidelines).

Clare gunner

It probably does not make a lot of sense to have a shorter then 24" barrel for clays or hunting but it might be handy for a practical shotgun to have a barrel in 18" - 24" range.

Can be somtimes the exact opposite.If you hunt in heavy brush and thick forest cover .It is better to have a shorter barrel.While in practical shotgun a longer barrel is better,as it allows you to hang and support a longer mag tube under the barrel and save time on reloading.

18ins you are really talking a security/home defence "attitude readjuster",where shortness,not to get caught up in things and low mag capacity is important.
The short factory barrels of 24ins are no problem.Some districts want the serial nos stamped on the extra barrels others dont.
Now what happens in a situation like this,Shot pistols.Basically a shotgun reciver with in the case of a pump action front and rear pistol grips,18in or less usually 12ins RIFLED Barrel??? Is this a shotgun or a pistol???? It wasnt sawed off,it was made like this from the start.This happened in the UK after Hungerford a company in Brighton made two types of these based on the Remington pump and semi auto actions.It baffled the home office .They were eventually banned after Dunblane as they could then be classed as pistols.
Lets see what the DOJ would say to this one.


So they finally copped onto the rifle barrel length here in 2006.19ins.Damn there goes my plan for an ultra short Ruger 10/22:mad: Mutter,mumble!!!

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Damn there goes my plan for an ultra short Ruger 10/22

...and hello here comes your plan for an ultra long Ruger Mk2

garmac

Excuse the stupid question but I was looking at buying a semi-auto which has a 19" barrel and o/a length of 41", with a fixed stock & pistol grip a la Benelli M1. Is this then illegal? Please tell me it isn't!

Sparks

Not a stupid question garmac, just a badly written law.

Far as I can see, Slav is right - if you get the licence, it'll be perfectly legal. But the worrier in me says that you might have a problem later if they bring in a guideline to not issue licences for firearms with barrel lengths less than the figures they give in the Act (24" for shotguns and 19.68" for rifles). Overall length doesn't count from the way the act is worded by the way, it's barrel length they're looking at.

Slav

Sparks wrote:

And I expect that after the first court case to get a licence for an 18" shotgun was taken, the Minister would declare all shotguns under 24" to be restricted, and issue a guideline that no shotgun under 24" should be issued a licence (assuming such a guideline wasn't part of the initial issuing of such guidelines).

All right, that is a likely scenario. We’ll see as I guess there will be such court case if this sport develops in Ireland.

garmac

Thanks for the help guys. Feel a little happier now. Now, anyone want to buy a kidney to help me out??:D

Slav

Clare gunner wrote:

Can be somtimes the exact opposite.If you hunt in heavy brush and thick forest cover .It is better to have a shorter barrel.While in practical shotgun a longer barrel is better,as it allows you to hang and support a longer mag tube under the barrel and save time on reloading.

I agree with you, there are exceptions. My point was that one rarely needed a short-barrelled hunting shotgun in Ireland while the practical shotgun sport did not exist (still does not?) here.

As far as the tube capacity is concerned there are usually 6 rounds even under 18" barrel. Is it worth extending the tube to match 24-inch barrel?

Slav

Remmy wrote:

The remington 870 seems like the obvious choice but the only aftermarket 24 inch barrels available for them are the hastings and they seem like big money .

The Chinese clone of 870 comes with 24" barrel as standard. They are dirt cheap.

Clare gunner

garmac wrote:

Excuse the stupid question but I was looking at buying a semi-auto which has a 19" barrel and o/a length of 41", with a fixed stock & pistol grip a la Benelli M1. Is this then illegal? Please tell me it isn't!

Yup it is:( . Unless you get a 5in "compensator" or choke permanantly afixed to the barrel to bring it to legal length.;)

Some folks use 36ins of shotgun barrel for practical shotgun.They have 15+ shots under there.24ins is NOT a "match" barrel ,it is minimum length for legal purposes here in Ireland. You can have eight rounds under an 18in as well.But understand,shorter barrels DO NOT give you an advantage in practical shotgun.Yes there are doubles made with 24ins from the factory.It is a matter of preferance shotgun barrel length.I prefer short barrels on mine and a adjustable choke for all my hunting.Others want as long as possible,they feel they "swing "better
Sparks,
The Ultra long ruger mk2 already exists. I think the Joker in the orginal Batman used it to shoot down the Bat plane.:D

Sparks

Yup it is

No, Slav was correct - the minimum barrel length is what you're not allowed to modify the barrel length to be less than. The Act doesn't have anything in it about firearms which come from the factory with a barrel length less that that. I would presume that the drafters, not having had sufficient technical expertise to hand, didn't think any firearms were commercially made that short. So if you can get a licence for it, then it's legal. It's just that it's so obviously against the intent of the lawmakers that it's not likely you'd get a licence in the first place, or that there wouldn't be a bit of a kerfuffle over it if you came to the attention of the Powers That Be either during the licencing procedure or afterwards. It's a loophole looking for a plug...

CG, you'd need an awfully big pair of pants for that holster

Clare gunner

Well,in that case I have to refer back to the Winchester Trench broom exceptions here of 16.5 ins.Do those exceptions not then set a precedent or a potentil precedent for shorter than 18ins???

A long holster,either that or all the ladies on the range are going to be awfully glad to see me.:D

Sparks

Clare gunner wrote:

Well,in that case I have to refer back to the Winchester Trench broom exceptions here of 16.5 ins.Do those exceptions not then set a precedent or a potentil precedent for shorter than 18ins???

They certainly provide examples of shotguns whose barrels were designed to be less than the 24" the CJB drafters intended to be a limit; but that doesn't mean their existance would overturn that intent - more likely, they'd just be ruled to be restricted and then you'd lose them because you couldn't provide sufficient security to ensure they weren't stolen and used to hold up a post office. Sure, some people will have the time and the will to go to court to get the licence and they might even succeed - but that'll mean individual licences in numbers small enough to discount as abberations from the DoJ's point of view.

les45

Lads, from memory the Bog Standard 1022 has a barrell that does not conform to the new regs!

Sparks

Yup - for the carbine and compact models anyway. One's a half-inch too short, the other's two inches shorter again.

civdef

WHat are the new regs regarding rifles?

Sparks

Same as for shotguns but with a different length limit civ. You can't shorten the barrel below 19" except as part of a repair job which will leave it with a barrel length over 19" when you're done. Says nothing about rifles which come from the factory with 16" barrel lengths like the 10/22 compact rifle model.

civdef

Where are those numbers from?

Edit, having seeked and founded.

CJB

65.—The following section is inserted after section 12 of the Fire- 30
arms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990:
“Shortening
barrel of shotgun
or rifle.
12A.—(1) Subject to subsection (2), a person
who shortens the barrel of—

(a) a shot-gun to a length of less than 61
centimetres, or 35

(b) a rifle to a length of less than 50
centimetres,

is guilty of an offence.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

They certainly provide examples of shotguns whose barrels were designed to be less than the 24" the CJB drafters intended to be a limit; but that doesn't mean their existance would overturn that intent - more likely, they'd just be ruled to be restricted and then you'd lose them because you couldn't provide sufficient security to ensure they weren't stolen and used to hold up a post office. Sure, some people will have the time and the will to go to court to get the licence and they might even succeed - but that'll mean individual licences in numbers small enough to discount as abberations from the DoJ's point of view.

Be kind of difficult for the DOJ to argue that point in court,if anyone can prove that they have been here from the foundation of the State,and have never been used in any crime.Well,maybe shooting Black&Tans or Free Staters or Republicans depending on ownership.Restriction does not automatically mean confiscation, or loss just applying to the Cheif comissioner for the liscense.He is now answerable in the DC as well,so he will have to have some justification to refuse a liscense for a firearm that was in theory illegal under the previous act,but was liscensed no problem.Ditto with the Rugers as well.Back to the drawing board for the DOJ or else a freeze on all liscensed rugers,or an irish solution to an irish problem,ignore and continue as before.Which one will it be???

Sparks

Be kind of difficult for the DOJ to argue that point in court

Not really.

"Your honour, I turned down Mr.Murphy's application for a firearms licence for that firearm on the grounds of public safety. As your honour knows from watching the news, shotguns with their barrels sawn off for the purposes of concealment are such a problem in gun crime today that the Minister himself saw fit to state in the legislation that the practise of shortening barrels beyond a certain point was an offence. While Mr.Murphy did not shorten the barrel himself, nor did any Irish gunsmith, the fact remains that the barrel is now less than the legal limit and as such, this firearm is a prime target for any burglar looking to steal a firearm for use in criminal activities. As such, I advised Mr.Murphy that under the Firearms Act 2006, Section 4, Subsection 2(d) that I could not grant him a firearms certificate for the firearm in question unless he could demonstrate that the accomodation for the firearm in question was secure against a determined attack by a burglar during the response time of the Gardai in his area to such a call, which is estimated could be as high as several hours in the event of there being a call to Ryans's Pub on the far side of BallyNoWhere. I further stated that in the event that suitable secure storage could be arranged, that I would also be imposing, under the Firearms Act 2006, Section 4, Subsection 2(g), a further condition to the granting of his licence, that the barrel of the shotgun be extended to 24 inches or a replacement barrel 24 inches in length be fitted to the shotgun. It was at this point that Mr.Murphy became irritated and began tearing out his hair in handfuls and seeing as how he was displaying intemperate behaviour I notified him that this disqualified him from applying for a licence under the Firearms Act 2006, Section 8, Subsection 1(b). And that was when Mr.Murphy did proceed to beat me about the head with his application form while abusing me verbally, your honour."



Okay, so I'm being facitious at the end, but the thing is, the rest is perfectly legal.

Clare gunner

First off you address a District justice as Judge nowadays.We have finally gotton over abit of our hangover of adhering to English law customs .Now if Barristers can stop dressing like transvestites,we will be getting further.

First off is Mr Murphy a major threat of being robbed of his gun than mr Smith down the road? Any firearm would be a prime target of burgalary irrespective if it has a 12 in or 36ins barrel.All the difference between legality and illegality is 10 mins with a hacksaw.

Second does mr Murpthy have secure storage as per a requirement of the aforesaid act and a prerequsition of granting of liscenses?The super would be more advised to suggest better security to Mr Murphy for his security of storage,if they are worried about their response time.
Also the police response time is irrelvelant to the matter in question as we are here to rule on wether mr Murphy has the right to appeal a decision made by the local superintendant of adding a prerequsition on his firearms cert.
In which a family heirloom that was used in our nations struggle for freedom should be vandalised and the value destroyed by adding an unnecessary attachment.The weapon has been liscensed by the Gardai to his family since 1925 without any ado.
Has Mr Murphy been ever a threat to the public,ever been in trouble no,so this point is irrvelant as well.However upon him assaulting a police officer in the course of his duties I find Mr Murphy was provoked beyond all reasonable restraint by the officers in question and fine him therefore 20 Euros in the poor box,and dismiss the superintendants application for a restriction.Case dismissed.
Ok,very simplified,but using an excuse that a gun is a more shorter andthe owner is living in the boonies is a very weak arguement to put a restriction on it.Hell,maybe the judge would say well if he has to rely on himself before the police self admittadly respond to his cry for help.He is perfectly justified in wanting a "sawn off shotgun".Has happened.

FLAG

Folks:

We sough clarification on this issue during the drafting of the bill, as we were aware of the fact that many rifles have barrels shorter than the length specified: We circualted the following brief to the SSAI:
"The actual effect of the proposal relates only to the unlawful shortening of a rifle barrel to <50 Cm, it is the act of shortening that is the subject of the legislative section.

Factory rifles remain unaffected, one needs to read the whole section to see the background, lawful possession or shortening by a gunsmith is unaffected."

I trust that this clarifies the matter.

From a shotgun perspective: possession of a shotgun with a barrel length less than 24" is unlawful even under the older legislation and it does not change under the current legislation.

Clare gunner

From a shotgun perspective: possession of a shotgun with a barrel length less than 24" is unlawful even under the older legislation and it does not change under the current legislation.

[/QUOTE]

Well FLAG could you please clarify then why the 16.5ins guns are somtimes for sale with no problems and have a liscense and the Gaurds have no problem liscensing them??

spideog7

Just a thought here now but how does this law apply to interchangeable barrels...for example the Remington 870 has many different barrels that can be changed in a matter of seconds, including a slug barrel...not sure on its exact dimensions (think its longer than 2ft but lets say for sake of arguement it ain't).
Is it illegel to possess the barrel even if it isn't on the gun...never was and never will be (at least not while anyone is lookin' ).
As far as the local super knows its just a length of pipe sittin in the corner of the gunsafe ( "in case someone tries to steal me guns Garda" )
:rolleyes:

Clare gunner

ASFIK the Remmy slug is 24ins as well.
To answer your question;proably Yes.As I said before some districts want the spare barrels stamped with the nos of the reciver,some dont.You can do this yourself BTW.If they found it with the seial no stamped on it.Goodbye,as it is an illegal firearm.Without the nos ,what are you doing with a short barrel below legal length??ASFIK the only way to posses a 16in here is get one pre regd Winchester antiques.Honestly under 24ins,you dont need it for practical shotgun.Unless you are think of using it for home defence,then you need to learn tactics of using a shotgun in a home defence situation.Those tactics will allow a 24in barrel.If you want a short shotgun,get a pistol grip/folder with a 24in barrel.18ins and less is really only necessary for use in a very cramped place like a car,hiding it under your jacket,either then you are LEO/BG or a stickup man.If you are the first two,it wont be too much problem to own a short barrel.If you are of the last category,you wont care.

civdef

From a shotgun perspective: possession of a shotgun with a barrel length less than 24" is unlawful even under the older legislation and it does not change under the current legislation.

Under what act?

Genuine question, I never was able to find any provision to this effect. The firearms Act 1971 mentions shotguns with a barrel of less than 24", but does not prohibit them.

Sparks

The definition in the older acts of a "sporting firearm" that included shotguns with a barrel length over 24" confused lots of people for years - myself included - but the thing was that there was never any real legal weight attached to it. I guess that the idea was that only certificates for sporting firearms would be issued, but that was never put into law, just into practice. But no, there wasn't any Irish law against shotguns with a barrel length of less than 24". Nor, technically, is there now - you just can't modify a shotgun to be less than that barrel length now. If it was made that way, according to the law, it's fine.

Actually, we should say that that's according to the law from Nov.1 onwards - all this is being based off the new licencing parts of the Firearms Acts and they don't kick in until that point, according to the Minister.

Hezz700

Hi Lads,

Not that its much of an input but,a couple of years back i had a Fabarm Eurolion MK1 with a factory 24" barrall. Not the same thing i know, but it was never an issue with the local FO. It was a great gun in a hide(when it did,nt Jam):D

Hezz