Why do people avoid this forum?

440Hz

I know this thread might annoy some people but I cant understand this problem... I am sure I am not the only one:

I know at least three very regular boardsies who are excellent photographers and you WILL NOT post in this forum. Their work is great, and they post in other forums every day but they wont post here. I've asked a few times why not and they always say they dont think the forum is very approachable.

I mean every forum on boards has some controversial members/mods, but it doesnt stop people from posting,. I just think its strange. If I know of 3 who wont post then there has to be more!!

Maybe everyone in here is happy with the group of regular posters, but isnt it a pity that there is talent out there who are not happy to post here because of the reactions they have seen some members give to other people's work. One of them mentioned to me that they feel the forum is elitist. I dont agree with them, I think the majority of people in here are great. I can see why a noobie might be put off though... anyone agree?

Do you reckon we should make the place more 'approachable' to new talent or just carry on regardless with the regulars we have?

Just a thought

CrowdedHouse

440Hz wrote:

I know at least three very regular boardsies who are excellent photographers and you WILL NOT post in this forum. Their work is great, and they post in other forums every day but they wont post here. I've asked a few times why not and they always say they dont think the forum is very approachable.

That's ridiculous - they're probably just odd.

Enygma

Name and shame! WITCH HUNT!

Seriously though, this forums fairly ok I think. Definetely one of the better ones on boards IMHO. I don't really see any elitism (maybe a small bit )

Of course I'd understand if they thought we were all a bunch of muppets

Wishbone Ash

Most people (myself included) who take pictures regularly, do so as a matter of record or interest. We have little interest in "photography" as an art form as such and probably feel that our pictures will receive undue technical criticism which will go over our heads.

rymus

elitism? Pah... I came all the way down here to deal with that? Now, as I return to my golden throne up on high from where I look down upon all you minions I say, avert your gaze!

elven

I always thought that any new posters I've seen have been encouraged, and welcomed into the forum - so maybe these guys are going on an impression they maybe got months or years ago - or maybe they saw a thread where someone was having a bit of a rant.

I know there are obviously going be be regulars in every forum, but I don't think there's half the amount of elitism here that I've seen elsewhere, where the core members are only interested in a self congratulatory back slapping mutual appreciation society, and any newcomers are ignored. I've only been on here for a couple of months, and I certainly never felt shy about posting at first... it would be interesting to know what in particular would give someone that impression that it's not a friendly place.

What is there that we can actually do to make new people want to join in... any suggestions?

Calina

CrowdedHouse wrote:

That's ridiculous - they're probably just odd.

I think you have just - all on your own - proved their point.

@440Hz - forums change their tone all the time. There are a couple of people here that I like very much, there are a couple of people whom I don't so much appreciate. And a lot of people do prefer doing to yabbering on a forum about doing, and I think that's fair enough.

CrowdedHouse

rymus wrote:

elitism? Pah... I came all the way down here to deal with that? Now, as I return to my golden throne up on high from where I look down upon all you minions I say, avert your gaze!

We are not worthy O Great One....

eas

6-10 months ago or so I would agree that a good amount of blatant twatism existed on this forum, but for the most part I think it's gotten much better.

It seems to me that the nucleus posters (you know who you/they are) are quite helpful and generous with their advice and critiques.

I've been checking this forum and posting on and off for over a year now and have really noticed a change in peoples attitudes and the quality of the work that's posted.

So maybe they need to be told that things are better now.

slumped

I am quite new to this forum and I offer advice from my limited knowledge base when possible HOWEVER there are some times that I won't contribute to a post or thread because I feel that there are superior photographers here that like to pounce on the slightest technical detail that might be askew.

Also, I posted some GAA shots here recently and a regular contributor made comments about them, I replied to their post but there was no further comments from that poster. They just came in, gave their two cents worth and left. They gave opinions on my photos but then left and never came back to see what my reply was.

Anywhos, I like the forum, can check it several times every day but I will only post my work here if I think it is close to perfection as the criticism levied on this forum often outweighs the positves that can be gained.

I've got more positve comments on DeviantArt and through PMs than here.

S

joolsveer

I think the tone of the forum has generally improved over the last few months but you still have to have a hard neck when it comes to posting your treasured photos.

As a little exercise in gauging the current atmosphere on the forum here is a shot I took last Sunday in Stephen's Green. I really like it but I can see some deficencies too. Please criticise it for all you are worth and don't hold back!

CrowdedHouse

Calina wrote:

I think you have just - all on your own - proved their point.

Doesn't mean that it's not true.

Morlar

I'd say this is one of the most approachable ones I have come across for posting pictures. The critique here seems to be pretty evenly balanced out so I'd say they should post away and not worry about it.

Zombrex

I don't know, to each there own

For example I'm very interested in Film, but I hardly ever trundle over to the Film board.

Maybe one day I will, but I think people are quite fickle about what forums take there fancy, it doesn't necessarily reflect their most important interest, or the quality of the forum itself

I don't think this forum is overly critical or unwelcoming. When I posted my Flickr thread I was quite pleased with all the welcome messages.

digitalbeginner

Yes this forum is elitest.

blackbird98

digitalbeginner wrote:

Yes this forum is elitest.

I dont agree. I've been logging in regularly and I believe that most of the criticism is constructive, which is probably thr best way to learn photography. Each reply is only the opinion of the poster and should not be taken personally

Valentia

Yeah! I posted a picture yesterday for C & C and only one person (thanks 440) bothered their arse to comment . 57 views and 1 comment. For crying out loud! I'm feckin totally pissed off. This place is gone to the shaggin dogs lately:(:confused:

Anyway I think this is a great flippin' place. Seriously. What do people expect? The internet isn't real life but I genuinely feel that I have friends here. Meeting some of you guys in the flesh has helped but apart from the rare occassion I think that people are generally very welcoming here. I think that people have been very gentle with their criticism as a rule, too gentle to be honest and when it has been harsh it has been mostly said diplomatically. I know from my drama experience that telling people that they are good when they are not stifles progress and is totally counter productive. It's always difficult to give an honest critique to a crap picture. I usually don't comment at all in that situation because I'm nervous of appearing too critical or arrogant. I would have no problem saying (speaking) it because then I know that, through my demeanour and expression, people would know what I meant.

I have always felt that irony can sometimes be misinterpreted in a print communication environment like this. Some may come across as smart asses but I think they are really just being sarcistic and that's difficult to pick up when you can't see their expression.

I've joined another Irish photography forum recently, some here may know to which I refer, and my initial reaction is that a few people there rule the roost and dictate what happens. It's relatively new and has potential but I know from PM's received there that people are really annoyed with the clique and apparent elitism of some that has already developed there. I have never felt that that has happened here. OK some people get on better than others than others but, hey, that's life. I'll stick with the other place despite my misgivings if only to stir it now and again

No, 440, I think it should be easier for the people you mention to join and participate in something like this, get a feel for it and begin to understand the individuals here than, say, join a club of strangers. They can at least lurk unseen here.

This little place has changed fairly dramatically over the last few months. I remember when jools was pasted awhile back for posting a lot of pics. Some of the comments were atrocious, I felt. But that turned out to be a catalist when people took the time to get to "know" jools and, in my opinion, jools played a big part in that. I have always felt that he has contributed greatly to people waiting now before flying off the handle and towards people taking a bit of time go get to know a persons personality before forming a judgement. Difficult to do, as I've said, in this medium.

Anyway that's enough rambling. Some of you drive me mad, some I don't know at all and I have a genuine friendly affection for others. Remond you of anything? Yep, real life.;)

Now will some of you tell me what you REALLY HONESTLY think of my Gate Post pic, if you can find it, if it's not already on page 2...sob...sob!!!

Thanks 440 for starting this thread, you ask a very interesting question. Tell them to come in and feck the begrudgers!!

440Hz

Thanks for the replies guys. Valentia you made some great points there. Thing is... these people are not avoiding posting their work cos they are worried about it being slated, I have seen their stuff and there is very little negative stuff people (even the people in here) could say about it.

I remember a few weeks back a 'new' forum member starting posting and ended up having a thread fill up with arguments with the mod. That in itself would turn new people off...

I'll give you an example... there is a member of the UL forum, who is a great photographer, and a really good friend of mine. He asked me the other day where would be a good forum to post for advice on upgrading his current camera... I said 'post to the photo forum' and made some joke about us 'not being that scary'. I think in the end he posted to Fred or something... said something along the lines of posting something in that forum is just asking to be ripped apart and fed to the lions. Now he was being dramatic of course but.... all the same, this guy is on boards every day, and feels he cant post in here... not a good sign me thinks

jlang

I wouldn't be too worried. Because this forum is attached to the whole boards.ie system, there's a lot of passers-by coming and going from other boards. Some stay, some don't. I'd say anyone is welcome here, but not everyone wants to. Anyone can feel free to put up a picture and equally to comment on anybody's. I'd say it's quite relaxed here. If anything, I suppose some professional or top-level photographers could be put off by that and prefer to stay in more focussed photog only fora, but then there are some excellent photographers and pros here too.

Also, just as I have some interests that have a related board here that I've never bothered frequenting, I imagine there are boardsies who do photography and who are happy in other special interest fora or the general ones and don't feel the need to do their photography on the web or here.

rymus

digitalbeginner wrote:

Yes this forum is elitest.

Odd that you should complain, given the amount of free advertising you're getting here...

elven

And the award for longest post goes to.... da da da..... Valentia!!!!



Digitalbeginner, it would be nice to know exactly why you think that it's elitist, because the only people who have elaborated on their point are the ones who think that it isn't. It would be interesting to know what it is that makes you feel that way. It would also be interesting to know if you feel the same about the other aforementioned forum, if you have been over there...?

440Hz

rymus wrote:

Odd that you should complain, given the amount of free advertising you're getting here...

Now I tried to resist this reaction but , that is kinda funny

Valentia

elven wrote:

And the award for longest post goes to.... da da da..... Valentia!!!!

I know, my longest ever anywhere I'd say. I'm off to get help :eek:

And I'm not finished yet!! I have found since joining here that it has made me think more about my photography and has generated an interest in other areas and styles. It has definitely helped me improve and made me realise that there is so much more to improve. It stimulated me to get off my backside and experiment a bit. I know that with all the Valentia and Skelligs pics I have on Flickr some may see me as one dimentional and that is very true but wait, I'm telling ye, just wait!! The new me will burst out and I'll surprise ye yet. I will.....sometime. Honestly.

FreeAnd..

I still use this forum from time to time because it is a good place to get useful information and at the beginning i found the comments useful but because i was only beginning photography i didnt feel qualified to critique most images and then as valentia said earlier it seems there are often lots of views and no comments. This is one of the reasons i lost interest in posting here but maybe there are just lots of people like me who dont feel experienced enough to critique yet.

By the way that Gate shot was pretty good valentia along with some of your others. Particluarly like your bird shots. As for the gate shot the light on the stone and gate is really good but the glow ath the top of the stone sort of distracts me.

Zombrex

digitalbeginner wrote:

Yes this forum is elitest.

Define elitest?

I think some people expect this forum to be about a lot of hand holding and self-congratualations when ever someone posts up their first ever picture of their dog or a tree they liked.

This forum is about Photography as art and how to improve as a photographer. That involves c&c on photography, and you don't have to have a M.A to know what is wrong with a lot of photographs posted here. If the photographer is expecting people to lavish praise on his/her photograph he is posting in the wrong forum.

I see the problem as more the attitude of some people who come to this forum, who are looking for people to tell them they are great (not talking about you btw) and that their photograph is great.

I've been doing this for a few years now and most of my stuff sucks. But I don't mind, I didn't expect to be brillant at photography straight away, or ever for that matter. That isn't the reason I started, it is the learning and developing that is the fun bit for me, not everyone saying "wow, you are so good". If I wanted that I would sign up for mySpace and have 14 year olds droole over my portoflio (no offence to any mySpacers here )

Seriously I wouldn't mind if one of the charter rules was that all praise for a photograph is banned, only critizisms are allowed. THat way no one is going to be upset if people only point out the negative aspects, and how the photograph could have been improved.

you don't learn from the things you already do well, you learn from your mistakes.

CrowdedHouse

440Hz wrote:

I'll give you an example... there is a member of the UL forum, who is a great photographer, and a really good friend of mine. He asked me the other day where would be a good forum to post for advice on upgrading his current camera... I said 'post to the photo forum' and made some joke about us 'not being that scary'. I think in the end he posted to Fred or something... said something along the lines of posting something in that forum is just asking to be ripped apart and fed to the lions.

Honestly Katie from my experience in reading this forum that's just not true.

There's lots of posts asking 'recommend me a digital camera/What do you think of the Shakeittobitsie Corp ZX23 etc'

Any queries I've seen always seem to get useful opinions/alternative suggestions.
Never once have I seen a regular say 'Why don't you do a search instead' like in other forums.
Posters dropping by for advice on a P&S camera,probably a beginner, are never told to be a photographer you need a Canon/Nikon and half dozen lenses, or the D50 is crap throw it in the bin and get a D2X like me or else you're just a loser.


Just Odd I tell you ...:D

digitalbeginner

Valentia wrote:

I've joined another Irish photography forum recently, some here may know to which I refer, and my initial reaction is that a few people there rule the roost and dictate what happens. It's relatively new and has potential but I know from PM's received there that people are really annoyed with the clique and apparent elitism of some that has already developed there. I have never felt that that has happened here. OK some people get on better than others than others but, hey, that's life. I'll stick with the other place despite my misgivings if only to stir it now and again

Wow! Different planet or what? That quote describes this forum to a tee. I find the other forum you describe to be have much less of it's head up the proverbials, and much more welcoming.

I often see incorrect facts being quoted as fact on this forum. I find that there is less respect for other people feelings. I could list maybe 10 regular contributers here (some would call that a clique!), they can criticise and pontificate any way they want, but there's hell to pay if you try to answer back.

The simple fact is that an elitest clique rarely looks like one from the inside, try asking someone from the outside and see if it looks different. Oh hold on, that question has been asked, and guess what, the ones on the inside disagree and the ones on the outside agree.

Just like a lot of camera clubs I know.

Morlar

I still dont get whats elitist about this place - I am wondering what here is being compared to if people think that its some sort of lions den. It really isnt far as I can see.

I cant think of a single picture posted here that was totally ripped to shreds (aside from the pre-jools days). Criticism here tends to be evenly applied - no one picture is put through the ringer to the nth degree of expected perfection then the next average one gets superhigh praise - its well balanced on that score. I think thats because its enough of a mix of people here to get a good cross the boards (*cough) response.

I would agree with most of what valentia said earlier about other forums in comparison to this one. I cant recall anyone here looking down at anyone else for having a p&s as opposed to a costs-more-than-a-car type camera. I do think though that we need a 'what camera should I buy for x amount' sticky as we get those posts every 2-3 days and it tends to be the same post over and over.

440Hz

digitalbeginner wrote:

I find that there is less respect for other people feelings. I could list maybe 10 regular contributers here (some would call that a clique!), they can criticise and pontificate any way they want, but there's hell to pay if you try to answer back.

That is what my mates who wont post say! They have named a few people on the forum and said that they would not post for the fear of smart comments from certain members.

Personally I think you will get that in any forum, but isnt it a shame that we have a name for that sort oe behaviour here. I guess thats what the post is about... surely what is important here is the art, and learning from others... not worrying about whether or not to post a shot for fear of what reaction you might get from member X??

Morlar

440Hz wrote:

That is what my mates who wont post say! They have named a few people on the forum and said that they would not post for the fear of smart comments from certain members.

Personally I think you will get that in any forum, but isnt it a shame that we have a name for that sort oe behaviour here. I guess thats what the post is about... surely what is important here is the art, and learning from others... not worrying about whether or not to post a shot for fear of what reaction you might get from member X??

I am curious to know who member X is ? I bet its digital beginner isnt it ? (joking!) Seriously though answers by pm please.

JackKelly

While i've fallen away from the world of photography recently (and need a foot back up!), this forum was never particularly approachable due to a small number of posters.
In fairness, it's a lot better now than it used to be a few months ago. Back in the day, you wouldn't see constructive criticism for days. Who want's to share their photos, if they are only going to met with "great photo woot!2" or "dats crap.no mean1ng".
Thanksfully now, there seems to be a lot more approachable userbase. I'll have to start snapping again.

440Hz

Yeah TimAy, I agree with you, and others have said the same it has changed alot. I was on boards for a long time before I plucked up the courage to post here... just didnt feel 'worthy' for want of another word. Then I thought, to hell with it, worst they can do is give me advice I will learn from.. and I posted. I wasnt a big fan at first, but then I got to know people in here, and MOST of you are a friendly bunch , things are def. alot better than they were a few months ago though. Thats why I think its worth keeping all this in mind, if people are coming back now, maybe we can get new talent in as well, if people think things are on the up

5uspect

I'm still relatively new here and I try to give a comment or two when I can. I've found everyone here to be in general helpful and supportive. Of couse there will be differences of opioion but in the end if a shot looks good it doesn't matter if was taken on a canon, a nikon or a nokia. People come here to post because they like photography not because the hate it. People like it to different extents, you have the SLR purists and you have the camera phone point and clickers. People are different, get over it.

I have yet to post some shots for C&C yet because I'm a crap photographer. I've some zoo shots from Germany that I'm thinking it would be nice to post. I'm not worried that someone will rip my attempt to bits, I just don't feel that I'm on par with some of the great works I've seen here.

440Hz

5uspect wrote:

I have yet to post some shots for C&C yet because I'm a crap photographer. I've some zoo shots from Germany that I'm thinking it would be nice to post. I'm not worried that someone will rip my attempt to bits, I just don't feel that I'm on par with some of the great works I've seen here.

See... thats good cos it is your own choice not to post.. but you shouldnt not post because you think that other work posted here is better.As a musician I would never go out and perform anywhere if I thought like that... people are always going to be better and worse than other people at everything in life... I know that 99% of the posters here are better at this photography lark than I will ever be, but I post to learn and to hear what they say. And so I appreciate all the feedback I get, even when it is hard to hear

eas

digitalbeginner wrote:

I often see incorrect facts being quoted as fact on this forum. I find that there is less respect for other people feelings. I could list maybe 10 regular contributers here (some would call that a clique!), they can criticise and pontificate any way they want, but there's hell to pay if you try to answer back.

do you ever correct/challenge these facts/people? Maybe your not arsed but it would seem the idea of discussing different opinions would be beneficial?

digitalbeginner

eas wrote:

do you ever correct/challenge these facts/people? Maybe your not arsed but it would seem the idea of discussing different opinions would be beneficial?

And it never takes very long for posters here to get abusive

Calina

Wicknight wrote:

Seriously I wouldn't mind if one of the charter rules was that all praise for a photograph is banned, only critizisms are allowed. THat way no one is going to be upset if people only point out the negative aspects, and how the photograph could have been improved.

you don't learn from the things you already do well, you learn from your mistakes.

On the other hand, I would mind if you could only post about the things people are doing wrong because they may not recognise the things that they are doing correctly. In other words, what I want is constructive criticism, and that does not amount to coverage of the things you did wrong only.

Valentia

Many years ago in a different life I was a member of the IPPA (Irish Professional Photographers Assoc) and what struck me was the extremely high opinion some of them had for themselves. Some spoke of photography as if it was brain surgery. Some of the best photographers I know know nothing at all about the technical side of it or the so called rules. They just instictively take brilliant photos. Many of those shots do not fit into the strait jacked of so called rules. That makes the pics unique and fresh. What I am trying to say is that C & C has it's place but should be taken with a grain of salt. Some of my pics that I think are crap are other peoples favourites.

We get some of that silly critiqueing here but not as much as elsewhere. Obviously as Wicknight says, there are some pics that are plain atrocious. I take thousands of them every year, but someone starting out should be encouraged but also be given a fair honest view so that they will learn. It's the only way they will learn.

digitalbeginner, I really can't see where you get this elitist thing. Like any community some people will know and get on with people better than others. Some members here have met, taken pics and had pints together. It's only natural that they would have a more intimate and frequent rapport with each other. That is not a clique. You will find that they are the kernel of this group too but thay have never ever, in my view, excluded other members. If people feel that well then I really think they should ask themselves is it me or others that are creating those feelings.

As i said already forums like this should not be taken too seriously. It might appear like real life but it is far from it.

And so what if people give wrong information? They can be corrected by the wiser elder lemons and therby learn themselves. Another aspect that this "place" shares with the real world

eas

digitalbeginner wrote:

And it never takes very long for posters here to get abusive

my question was not intended to be agressive in any way. I was only making a point that if we see the types of things you stated in your post, the best thing to do would be to correct/discuss them for the better of the comunity that uses this forum.

maybe your too sensitive or read too much into other peoples posts?

Valentia

440Hz wrote:

I know that 99% of the posters here are better at this photography lark than I will ever be,

What? You are talking through your ****. Is that critique strong and constructive enough>

Valentia

digitalbeginner wrote:

And it never takes very long for posters here to get abusive

?? I didn't pick that up either. I thought that was a good point. I made a similar one in my second last post.

digitalbeginner

eas wrote:

Maybe your not arsed

Maybe the problem is with your choice of language and not my sensitivity. You wouldn't say that to a stranger in the street, but behind the safety of your own keyboard you feel you can. Another reason people stay away?

440Hz

Valentia wrote:

What? You are talking through your ****. Is that critique strong and constructive enough>

lol! im just winging it! I know very little about the technical side of it... I just see something I like and try and capture it as best I can. I wish I had the time to learn more but fingers, too many pots and all that! Maybe when I get sick of the singing

eas

digitalbeginner wrote:

Maybe the problem is with your choice of language and not my sensitivity. You wouldn't say that to a stranger in the street, but behind the safety of your own keyboard you feel you can. Another reason people stay away?

I'm not sure if your trying to use me to prove a point - but in conversation i would use the word "arsed" even if it was a stranger.

In any case, It was not meant the way you read it, only making a point.

see, clearing things up by discussion..it works.:)

311

I like this forum ,learnt a hell of a lot from people here both on the forum and out in the field .
Just like to say thanks to all !!!!!!

Valentia

440Hz wrote:

I know very little about the technical side of it... I

Don't worry about that, wont your spanking new lens look after all that nonsense! Jazus I'd better do some work :eek:

Tarakiwa

I am still VERY new to photography bowever this is the ONLY forum that I have ever posted on.

I have always foung all C&C to be useful & constructive - never elitist!

I have also found the members to be very encouraging.

If there is any fear in joining this forum it is just that most of you seem to personlly know each other (as in "real life" as opposed to "on line"!) - this makes it slighly intimidating for the 1st time user.

That said my experience with the forum & its members has been great.

I hope you all continue to C&C on my posts & to help me improve.

slumped

The tone of this thread reminds me of a joke:


What did one photographer on Boards say to the other?


Hello, I'm better than you.


S

rymus

I sense you have a wonderful career ahead of you in the German comedy circut

440Hz

Tarakiwa wrote:

If there is any fear in joining this forum it is just that most of you seem to personlly know each other (as in "real life" as opposed to "on line"!) - this makes it slighly intimidating for the 1st time user.

Not at all... I know alisonB, fajitas, and masteroftherealm and our mod of course. met calina, fionn and roen once! thats it! i think the dublin crowd get to meet the most, but thats always going to be the case... and for the record, I knew nobody here when i first posted. All lovely people... and always look forward to any meets

slumped

rymus wrote:

I sense you have a wonderful career ahead of you in the German comedy circut

Nein Danke.

Mein yokes nicht funny.

S