Believers & Non-Believers

6th

Researchers into the paranormal report that even the presence of someone who flatly does not believe can derail such an experiment. Belief, it seems, may be a requisite for at least some paranormal phenomena to happen.

"Perhaps this is the reason non believers rarely experience anything that would lead them to doubt their position as skeptics," Martin said.

Taken from this article:

"What it comes down to is belief," Martin said. "Belief is extremely potent. For example, the effectiveness of placebos has been demonstrated time and again in double-blind scientific tests. A report that came out four years ago says that after thousands of studies, hundreds of millions of prescriptions and tens of billions of dollars in sales, sugar pills are as effective at treating depression as antidepressants such as Prozac, Paxil and Zoloft. What's more, placebos bring about profound changes in the same areas of the brain these medicines are said to affect — according to this research. For anyone who may have thought otherwise, this proves beyond doubt that thoughts and beliefs can and do produce physical changes in our bodies."

The same research reports that placebos often outperform the medicines they're up against. For example, in a trial conducted in April, 2002, comparing the herbal remedy St. John's wort to Zoloft, St. John's wort fully cured 24 percent of the depressed people who received it. Zoloft cured 25 percent. But the placebo fully cured 32 percent.

"Taking what one believes to be real medicine sets up the expectation of results," Martin said, "and what a person believes will happen usually does happen. It's been confirmed, for example, that in cultures where belief exists in voodoo or magic, people will actually die after being cursed by a shaman. Such a curse has no power on an outsider who doesn't believe."

Martin said he believes belief played a role in the Salem witch hysteria. He thinks the people who accused others of witchcraft truly believed they had been bewitched. So did everyone else involved. Even the people who were accused of being witches thought so –– although, if they were innocent, they may have thought someone else besides them was responsible.

**Edit: I started this thread as a discussion to be added to by Believers, Non-Believer & everything inbetween. Its not an excuse to say who is right and who is wrong. Its all about RESPECT people!

monkeyfudge

It is an odd one alright, but the placebo effect is all about your own body fooling itself.

So if someone believes they've taken Prozac when they've just taken a sugar pill, it would be the same as someone seeing a ghost when they've really seen something mundane, but they've been fooled because of their expectations and beliefs.

6th

Good point but I posted this out of interest, not because it fit in with my beliefs.

Some would say that non-believers are experiencing events but either refuse to believe or are blind to them.

Equally believers could be said to be seeing (or not) what they choose.

My point is that belief is a very powerful thing and not just in regards to religious faith.

Some people talk about protection rituals etc but for me its a case of " i know i will be ok", this is down to confidence and belief as opposed to arrogance.

kshiel

I think belivers and Non-belivers could and probally will argue this point till the end of time or at least till one side or the other comes up with unshakable proof one way or the other. At the end of the day it will always come down to what the individual believes.

With riturals etc I think these are ways for people to access or aid them in the quest they seek. Like Tarot Cards etc are a tool a psychic might use. The cards themselves maybe used to help the psychic access his/her gift better. I dont think anyone can deny that words etc are very powerful indeed even if it is only to the person using them.

MonkeyWrench

I think experiments into paranormal activity are often derailed because the group doing the experiment has a chink in the chain which leads to a break in the flow of the herding mentality. If one person out of 5 is not believing what is happening is paranormal then the rest will also have some small doubt in their minds. I've been interested in the paranormal from a very early age and have gone from a half believer to a complete sceptic over time.

6th

We should all have small doubts about what we experience, or maybe thats just me.

I dont see much of a difference between "a half believer to a complete sceptic" they both question it. A complete sceptic just means that you question everything which is in no way going against the possibility that the paranormal exists, infact with regards to paranormal investigation i think a sceptical mind is essential.

Personally I have no quest, due to my experiences, that the paranormal exists but for me scepticism comes into it when I am asking the whys & hows of it all. IMO the only way to deal with it is on a case by case basis until we have a better understanding of it all and a better language with which to discuss it.

pH

Careful with the power of placebo - yes there is good evidence that conditions which exist mainly in the mind (pain, depression, anxiety, stress etc.) do respond well to placebos.

However, a placebo vaccine (say for smallpox) is entirely ineffective - believing you're vaccinated won't help at all.

The second point is that (in medical testing) the placebo is only the first step. A placebo-controlled trial may still only be single blind (the patient doesn't know whether they're getting the placebo), and still produce erroneous results. Time and time again serious professionals suffer from observer bias (quite genuinely I believe), and only when *no one* knows who's getting a placebo and who's not do you obtain real results.

"Taking what one believes to be real medicine sets up the expectation of results," Martin said, "and what a person believes will happen usually does happen. It's been confirmed, for example, that in cultures where belief exists in voodoo or magic, people will actually die after being cursed by a shaman. Such a curse has no power on an outsider who doesn't believe."

Any references for that - confirmed how, by whom and at what level of confidence?

Oryx

pH wrote:

Any references for that - confirmed how, by whom and at what level of confidence?

Ive heard that anecdotally quite a bit, as I would presume have many reading here.

I dont really want to get into the whole believer non believer thing, just mentioning that without fail if Im talking to someone who is a 'non' believer, I can sense it straight away. How this is Im not sure, could be simple body language. But I find this kind of person much more difficult to 'read' (I dont mean cold reading either!) It just feels to me like theres a block. ...throwing that out for what its worth.

MonkeyWrench

6th wrote:

Personally I have no quest, due to my experiences, that the paranormal exists but for me scepticism comes into it when I am asking the whys & hows of it all. IMO the only way to deal with it is on a case by case basis until we have a better understanding of it all and a better language with which to discuss it.

Sorry for being a bit of a newbie to this board, maybe it was covered somewhere by yourself before, but what were the main experiences that have led you down this path?

SkepticOne

The placebo effect is well recognised. Attitude and belief has an effect on healing. However it is not paranormal. The brain is part of the body and has an effect. We can't generalise from this to ESP and other paranormal claims, unfortunately, as the article does.

6th

pH wrote:

Any references for that - confirmed how, by whom and at what level of confidence?

I'm quoting the article thats linked in my first post of this thread.

6th

What i'm trying to get a discussion on here is the power of belief, not specifically placebos.

6th

MonkeyWrench wrote:

Sorry for being a bit of a newbie to this board, maybe it was covered somewhere by yourself before, but what were the main experiences that have led you down this path?

it would be a long reply if i put it all in and i'm afraid it would take you reading all 2,500+ posts to know why i really do what i do.

A good starting point to get an idea of the type of things posters here have experienced would be this.

SkepticOne

6th wrote:

Some would say that non-believers are experiencing events but either refuse to believe or are blind to them.

I think a lot comes down to interpretation of experiences. For example, the experience of sleep paralysis with its associated halucinations can seem very real to the person experiencing it.

Equally believers could be said to be seeing (or not) what they choose.

However there is a middle ground where you suspend belief (regardless of what it is) and attempt to get to the truth of the matter.

6th

Ah but SkepticOne, who's to say that SP isnt just more than chemicals and body functions? Or that it is just that but brought on by interaction with "entities" at another level outside of our current understanding?

Some people believe that there is nothing to ghosts etc and that it can all be explained, they come to this usually from reading on the subject and not having nessecerily had a paranormal encounter. They choose to believe what the books tell them and I think thats 100%.

People who have had (and may regularily have) paranormal encounters choose to believe what they do based on experience and in many case inspite of what science may tell us. I have yet to meet some who has never had an experience who says they are 100% sure ghosts etc exist. (apart from catholics who believe in God without having had an direct encounter with him - but thats a different thread in another forum).

Now as anyone here know i'm whats known as a believer, but I choose to belief in what i have had experience with and believe in the possibility that other peoples paranormal experiences are what they say they are.

Obvious me and you are around long enough to say "we you believe what you want and I'll believe what i want".

littlebug

This is interesting if a bit confusing. There’s no consideration that believers might believe because of the experiences they have had as opposed to having experiences because they believe they will. It’s all a bit chicken and eggish. Maybe the presence of a sceptic does lead to fewer experienced phenomena by the fact that they may be more likely to look for and accept non paranormal explanations but I would also hope that even believers maintain a healthy level of scepticism in such circumstances. As a book review I don’t think it’s particularly well written but I would be interested in reading more to see where exactly he is drawing his conclusions from.

Here’s an interesting (true) story to mull over.
A friend, a nurse, found herself sitting in at a support group for HIV+ patients some years ago (sorry I don’t know the background as to how or why she was there or indeed who the group were). She thought that she was sitting in on a relaxation session but as it went on it became apparent to her that it was more than that but wasn’t really sure what was going on but felt very uncomfortable being there.

Afterwards she learned that this session was conducted on a regular basis not only as a support group but to call upon the spirits/ guides/ ancestors/ helpers (or whatever) of the particular patients. Some of the patients told her afterwards that, in fact, their guides/ spirits did not in fact come forward on that occasion as they usually did. They felt that the spirits were there but lurking in the background and the patients’ beliefs were that they were lurking rather than coming forward because of my friends lack of belief.

So, did the spirits decide not to come forward because of her lack of belief or did the very presence of a non believer block their path in some way. Perhaps it was the patients themselves who picked up on her discomfort which in turn made them feel uncomfortable and led them to believe that their spirits weren’t coming forward. As far as I know none of them would have had any knowledge of her belief (or non belief) system before this session.

Any thoughts?

p

monkeyfudge

pH wrote:

Careful with the power of placebo - yes there is good evidence that conditions which exist mainly in the mind (pain, depression, anxiety, stress etc.) do respond well to placebos.

This is true. Apparently 80% of an antidepressents effectiveness comes from the patients belief that it will help. Alternative medicines would most likely have an even bigger precentage...

New Scientist Magazine did a special on the power of belief earlier in the year which was very interesting... I'll have to see if I can dig out a copy.... but it mentioned people who are completely paralysed from the neck down, but still believe they can move their arms and legs despite what their eyes show them, you also have women whose bellies will become swollen and breasts start to lactate just because they think they're pregnant.

Stoner

monkeyfudge wrote:

you also have women whose bellies will become swollen and breasts start to lactate just because they think they're pregnant.

I had a dog that did that too, dug a hole in the garden to have her pups in etc, the vet called it a Phantom pregnancy. Just thought I'd let you know that Monkeyfudge

SkepticOne

6th wrote:

Some people believe that there is nothing to ghosts etc and that it can all be explained, they come to this usually from reading on the subject and not having nessecerily had a paranormal encounter. They choose to believe what the books tell them and I think thats 100%.

People who have had (and may regularily have) paranormal encounters choose to believe what they do based on experience and in many case inspite of what science may tell us. I have yet to meet some who has never had an experience who says they are 100% sure ghosts etc exist. (apart from catholics who believe in God without having had an direct encounter with him - but thats a different thread in another forum).

Now as anyone here know i'm whats known as a believer, but I choose to belief in what i have had experience with and believe in the possibility that other peoples paranormal experiences are what they say they are.

Obvious me and you are around long enough to say "we you believe what you want and I'll believe what i want".

What I think it amounts to is that believers elevate subjective experience to the level of objective reality. If it seems real, it is real from this point of view. I get a strange feeling in a spooky environment therefore it's a ghost etc. If objective enquiry fails to confirm subjective impressions, then from this point of view, it is objective enquiry that is at fault, not the mind playing tricks etc. Would this be a correct summary of your stance?

6th

No not really because personally i have come across spirits in very everyday boring situations. Equally I have been to alot of creepy places and felt nothing.

But i do both see what you are saying and agree this is very often the case with many people. Its hard to look for objective results when we do not know or understand what it is we are looking for. In most case I think its a case of studying the affects of spirits/energies/ghosts etc on the enviroment as opposed to studying them themselves. First we have to figure out what it is we are looking for proof of?

torinoblue

People who predispose themselves to belief without evidencee, will find it easier to believe in something without evidence.

I think that is something that nonbelievers and believers should be able to agree on.

It seems quite self-explanatory.

GuanYin

LadyJane wrote:

Look what happenned to this guy.

LadyJane

What the hell?

Post deleted.


Guys - Just a reminder. This isn't the ISS forum - have a refresher read of the charter if you're in doubt.

stormkeeper

6th wrote:

Some would say that non-believers are experiencing events but either refuse to believe or are blind to them.

I'd say it's a combination of both to be honest. In this article on luck that I've read - that I'll post in another thread when I upload it again as it's an interesting read - many tests were done. One of which involved a newsaper where there was a caption box in bigger print than the rest of the paper saying something like "stop reading this paper and tell <person> you have seen this to win £250." The thing is that despite it being right there in huge print, only the ones that considered themselves to be lucky actually saw it; the ones that considered themselves unlucky passed it by.

I don't quite know how to tie in the above to what I quoted, but I think what I'm trying to do is show how much belief in something can do, although according to the article, luck is based more on being observant, which is actually quite an important thing in the paranormal.

Equally believers could be said to be seeing (or not) what they choose.

Again very much the case as above. Additionally, a believer might be more inclined to tag something completely natural as paranormal, if there wasn't a way to rationalise it, same as a non-believer refusing to acknowledge something as paranormal. Two separate ends of the spectrum. The trick is to be balanced; open enough to accept that some things can't be explained naturally, but sceptical enough that you remain grounded, and don't attribute everything to the paranormal. Of course, additionally, you can't really attribute everything to a non-paranormal occurance. As we all know, not everything has a natural explanation, at least at the time anyway.

My point is that belief is a very powerful thing and not just in regards to religious faith.

It is indeed. I've known this for a while, and I think magick is based upon belief as well; if you believe in something strongly enough it will come to be.


Coincidentally, just for kicks, for the next investigation I do, I might do out a questionnaire/test thingy (no Leaving Cert Higher Level Physics/Maths!) where people fill in boxes and stuff on the first sheet, then on the second and third sheets, which people do after the investigation they fill in an additinal set of questions, perhaps the type of phenomena they exprienced, just to see if anything correlates between luck/belief and paranormal experiences. However, the test results on the luck test wouldn't be revealed till after the investigation has concluded, either that or I'd post up the results online, and assign a number to each sheet so people's identities would be anonymous.

Now granted, I've just said it on here, but at the same time, considering only a relative handful have previously been on investigations more than once, it should be easy enough to get a mix of good answers to make doing this test worthwhile, even if you are an experienced investigator...

iamhunted

lets be honest ... there are people who have a high tendancy to either believe in whatever is the fashion, or for personal reasons of their own, want to believe in the paranormal - and then there are people who believe in the paranormal solely because of their own experiences. Kinda gives us three different kinds of 'believers'. The reverse could go for non believers .. those who just dont want to believe, those who for personal reasons for their own dont believe and those who, since they havent had any experiences, have no reason to believe.

I wouldnt be a believer in 'ghosts' if I hadnt had my own experiences so personally i started out without having any belief at all.

iamhunted

in saying all that though, i wonder if theres any relation to those who had childhood ghost experiences and steadfast believers. the childhood experience could have been misinterpreted and if so would the grown up believer have based their faith in these things on that misinterpretation. it would be interesting to see if that grown up would experience paranormal stuff when non believers in the same place and time wouldnt.

Ive no idea if that makes sense.